It would be great to see tube tickets priced by weight as you step through the barriers. Lots of fat people and tourists (with bags) taking up room makes traveling on the tube much more uncomfortable than it needs to be.
There are so many things that are stupid about this, here is some examples:
1. IMHO this is directly sexist towards men. There are numerous socially awkward things you may do at a public transport. Why only crack down on one of them?
2. Even if manspreading would be an issue, which it is my belief that it is absolutely not, it would affect men more than women since men are generally speaking physically larger than women. Have anyone heard a man complain? EDIT: What I meant by this is that if this really was a problem, men would suffer more extensively from it.
3. This will most likely create the opposite effect and make more people spread their legs just because it is sexist in the first place.
EDIT 2:
Those who simply state that "this is an issue". Have you ever actually asked the person in question if they could take up less room? This "issue" needs a sign just as much as "women who places their handbags on other seats" or "dont stare at people intensively" or "dont dig out your nose in front of everyone" or "dont talk very loudly in the cellphone" or "dont play a music instrument". Also, since this is a it and startup related forum, where the fuck is the actual evidence that this is an issue?
If you would make a sign of every single bad behavior on a public transport, there would be no room for anything else. Just talk to people and if you are too afraid to, that itself is a way larger issue for you than people taking up too much space.
I know at least that if this would come in my hometown, I would manspread in every fucking ride.
Madrid mayor is a woman from a Marxist party. This is just virtue signalling. You just have to see how this was asked for by a feminist group "Women in struggle"
> Even if manspreading would be an issue, which it is my belief that it is absolutely not, ...
This leads me to believe that you haven't actually see it in action, and I wonder how much you travel on public transport. Absolutely it is a problem - I can't tell you how often my physical space has been unnecessarily "spread into" by this sort of thing.
> ... it would affect men more than women since men are generally speaking physically larger than women.
My observation is that men simply don't "manspread" into another man's space. It's very much a dominance thing. It's ugly, it's obnoxious, and it's borderline threatening.
I have no faith that this initiative will have any effect, but it most definitely is an issue.
I have seen people sit next to a manspreader, said "Excuse me," and been completely ignored, thereby being forced either to push them physically, or shrink away from them.
Would you believe that?
Not everyone is happy with asking someone who is encroaching on their space to move. You may feel this isn't a problem. My observations tell me it is.
1. Manspreading isn't "socially awkward" except in the very best case; more frequently, it makes seats that should be available unusable.
2.
a. It is an issue. I live in Boston, which has a pretty good public transit system, and I'll usually see one or two manspreaders per train car I ride.
b. You're conflating "taking up more space as a result of body size" with "maximizing the amount of space consumed". No one is complaining about the Andre the Giant-sized guy for whom it's impossible to keep it to one seat. I'm a relatively broadly-built/tall man, and I don't have any trouble keeping myself in one seat while riding the train, which makes me very skeptical of anyone else who claims that stretching out is necessary.
3. Well, if that's the case, then at least we'll know who the assholes are.
1. true, women doing makeup getting covered in dust and eyeshadow is not fun.
2. it is an issue. Plus for some reason men don't tend to do it as often when they sit next to each other or if they do generally one turns and spreads their legs into the aisle making it difficult for the people standing there or hard for people to get off the train.
2. I'm a man and my space has been invaded multiple times by manspreaders in the subway in my youth. I absolutely despise this behavior and there is no excuse to continue.
I'll tell you what's annoying in public transportation: people who stink. Also, people who play music. Why not crack down on them? It wouldn't even be sexist, like this thing is.
Funny thing is, I see women taking up more space than they need about as often as men. Not with their legs spread wide, perhaps, but by sitting sidewise, or plopping their bag on a seat. It's rude, but it's not gender-specific. I mean, call it what you will, but I think pretending only men do it is only likely to make people treat this less seriously.
(And the sign doesn't actually say man-spreading, so no real issue there)
There's a reason men spread their legs: it's hot down there, we need to cool it.
Also, how about shebagging? And all the other unacceptable behavior people have in public transportation? I've seen people clipping their nails, blasting music(?) on their phone, etc
We're headed down a dangerous path with these regulations.
I am much taller than average, way above the 99th percentile. On public transportation and on planes, as a matter of fact, I occupy more space than most people. Sometimes seats are designed so that I cannot help but invade someone else's space. Usually it takes just a second a tiny bit of common sense to ask someone to move a bit. Most often just eye contact is enough.
On the other hand I saw my fair share of jackasses on public transportation (feet over a seat, bringing in bikes during peak hours when it is explicitly forbidden, screaming on phone, drinking beer and then throwing the can on the floor, occupying more than one seat) and -- surprise surprise -- males and females were equally represented among jackasses.
This feminist trend of making up problems and sticking a "male" label on it really makes me sick!
I'm not quite that tall, but I think manspreading is generally perceived as being an issue when people sit in seats that are aligned with the major axis of the vehicle, as opposed to those are are in rows.
And your point is? That women sit spreading their legs as much as men? That the problem doesn't exist?
You are surely kidding?
And in 30 years using public transportation in 2 different countries I call bs on the claim that assholes are equally represented among men and women. It might be a matter of education (women be quiet, men be loud and mainly), but 90% of the times there's issues these are caused by men. Usually in groups.
The point is that this feminist trend of sticking a "man" label over common problems makes me sick. It's unnecessarily confrontational, just like your comment.
And btw yes, the problem, as it is described by the sexist slur "manspreading", exists just in a feminist's mind.
In my experience men and women are equally represented among assholes. I'm glad you shared your different personal experience, though.
Wait, how'd you figure out that the people complaining about manspreading are feminists? Do you often find yourself on the receiving end of sexist slurs?
No, I have never found myself on the receiving end of sexist slurs, say, in the last couple of years.
I think it's quite obvious that the term term "manspreading" has been coined in a feminist environment and that this inflammatory rethoric is typical of modern feminism. Do you need sources?
Ah, you were trolling! Sorry, I thought at first you were serious mate.
For the sake of public documentation, I'll argue:
It is confrontational because invading my personal space by using more than what's assigned to you is unnecessary and rude. Let me repeat something: I am a man and I also suffer from idiots spreading their legs like they've got balls the size of Jupiter. There's no physical nor biological reason for that, like not at all.
Women don't do it. I'm sure you can show me one example of a woman doing it, I can show you 2-3 men per bus trip, easily. It's a matter of education, how we have been educated. Men are educated to become alpha, to use their body to an advantage. Women are educated to be quiet and submissive.
It's not "feminine" to sit spreading your legs. It's very masculine to spread legs and arms, to show a bigger physical presence.
If you can't see why that's wrong then there's little hope for you. Even worse, if you think "feminist" means "against men" then I'm afraid you had a terrible upbringing.
Please refrain from judging my upbringings -- of which you know nothing. There's no need to get personal even if you are losing an argument.
Yes, I do think that modern feminism has a big component of man hating, and that's a pity, given the great tradition of sane feminism quite some years ago.
If you cannot see how putting a "man" label over some negative behavior is sexist, I don't know what can save from all this internalized mysandry.
Maybe you should try and change your point of view: female have mood swings much more often than men. It's biological, happens once per months, more or less. Should we call this "femm-whining" or "woman-swings"? Female cry much more than men, should we call this "femm-crying"?
That would be as sexist as "manspreading". I believe any decent person should avoid these sexist slurs altogether.
Wow dude. You're the personification of what's so wrong with the bro-culture in tech.
I'm not losing any argument because you're hardly arguing. You're just closing your eyes to facts: Men are educated differently, hence they act differently. Our society is unfair to women and we keep educating our child with the same mistakes.
On the other hand, you're claiming women have "mood swings once per month", I'm guessing you're referring to their period. I can't even find the words to describe how despicable has been your attitude on this whole thread, but this deserves the Nobel prize of misogyny.
You keep trying to paint yourself as the victim, making it all not only disgusting, but pretty pathetic.
The term manspreading is not sexist because it is something you can fix with education, mainly because it's an educational flaw. We're brought up with the wrong values that put women at a disadvantage, yet you want to compare that to having the period.
And I would mention your upbringing when I feel like to, which is usually when you have shown enough proof of a flawed upbringing (which is common, starting with my own). I'm not sure why you think I shouldn't be allowed to mention it, when it's 100% relevant to you holding a specific opinion.
Wow dude. You are the personification of a close minded person, who can't stand to have his dogmas criticized without getting all personal and offensive.
Do you get like this every time you ideas are being questioned? Usually people here on HN are much more open to different viewpoints. How thick is the bubble you live in, not to realize that people may not accept the feminist viewpoint? (Only 10% of population defines themselves as feminist! There's a world outside your bubble!)
You say that our society is unfair to women, however there are many aspects in which it is unfair to men. In my country and in most European countries women are graduating from university at a much higher rate than men. Where is the feminist outrage? Nowhere to be seen, feminism is NOT about equality.
The wage gap (another feminist construct, but still, let's play this game) is negative for part time workers. Women earn more than men in that category. Again, no feminist outrage. They just don't care about equality.
Finally, the term "manspreading" is indeed sexist, as per dictionary definition of sexism, because it is promoting a stereotype about a gender. That's the definition of sexism in my dictionary. Get over it.
Btw, again, I feel that mentioning the upbringings of someone you know nothing about, it's a very sore way of losing an argument. Grow up and discuss facts rather than unsubstantiated (and blatantly false, besides ridiculous) personal claims.
Yours is a totally different issue, here we are talking about people occupying much more than the space they need and invading other people personal space.
I am bother by this behavior and I feel it should something people learn when they are kids, not something I should ask for.
People may invade your personal space for many reasons: because they are taller than average, because they may be commuting for a long time and need to move their legs a bit, because they simply forgot or think about something else, because they come from different cultures with a different culture of what is personal space (try using public transportation in Beijing and then in Tokyo), or because they are assholes.
I think that we can just try to be humans and ask, it's not really a big deal. As I said even eye contact is enough most often, is it so difficult.
There's no need to start a war, leave along a pointless, sexist war like the proponents of the term "manspreading" are doing.
I guess I disagree on your arbitrary definition of "human", but this is a bit off topic.
This campaign is teaching people how they should ask, which is much more efficient and effective that asking one person at the time (moreover if you are the only one ask chanses are you will be seen as an unreasonable person on the train).
For the sexiest part I think it's laughable,as they are not suggesting it's a problem with all men, but that is prominent in men, which for my experience it's true. Btw also their claim as "manspreading" being sexiest is laughable in my opinion, but I agree that it should be stopped (and I am a male).
41 comments
[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 89.1 ms ] threadMaybe it just works by allowing those seated next to them to point at the sign?
1. IMHO this is directly sexist towards men. There are numerous socially awkward things you may do at a public transport. Why only crack down on one of them?
2. Even if manspreading would be an issue, which it is my belief that it is absolutely not, it would affect men more than women since men are generally speaking physically larger than women. Have anyone heard a man complain? EDIT: What I meant by this is that if this really was a problem, men would suffer more extensively from it.
3. This will most likely create the opposite effect and make more people spread their legs just because it is sexist in the first place.
EDIT 2:
Those who simply state that "this is an issue". Have you ever actually asked the person in question if they could take up less room? This "issue" needs a sign just as much as "women who places their handbags on other seats" or "dont stare at people intensively" or "dont dig out your nose in front of everyone" or "dont talk very loudly in the cellphone" or "dont play a music instrument". Also, since this is a it and startup related forum, where the fuck is the actual evidence that this is an issue?
If you would make a sign of every single bad behavior on a public transport, there would be no room for anything else. Just talk to people and if you are too afraid to, that itself is a way larger issue for you than people taking up too much space.
I know at least that if this would come in my hometown, I would manspread in every fucking ride.
This leads me to believe that you haven't actually see it in action, and I wonder how much you travel on public transport. Absolutely it is a problem - I can't tell you how often my physical space has been unnecessarily "spread into" by this sort of thing.
> ... it would affect men more than women since men are generally speaking physically larger than women.
My observation is that men simply don't "manspread" into another man's space. It's very much a dominance thing. It's ugly, it's obnoxious, and it's borderline threatening.
I have no faith that this initiative will have any effect, but it most definitely is an issue.
Would you believe that?
Not everyone is happy with asking someone who is encroaching on their space to move. You may feel this isn't a problem. My observations tell me it is.
Would you believe that?
#2 - it does annoy men, none of the signs indicate that only women are complaining (although the article does give that impression)
#3 - sometimes making people consciously aware that their behaviour is inappropriate does work
2.
a. It is an issue. I live in Boston, which has a pretty good public transit system, and I'll usually see one or two manspreaders per train car I ride.
b. You're conflating "taking up more space as a result of body size" with "maximizing the amount of space consumed". No one is complaining about the Andre the Giant-sized guy for whom it's impossible to keep it to one seat. I'm a relatively broadly-built/tall man, and I don't have any trouble keeping myself in one seat while riding the train, which makes me very skeptical of anyone else who claims that stretching out is necessary.
3. Well, if that's the case, then at least we'll know who the assholes are.
2. it is an issue. Plus for some reason men don't tend to do it as often when they sit next to each other or if they do generally one turns and spreads their legs into the aisle making it difficult for the people standing there or hard for people to get off the train.
(And the sign doesn't actually say man-spreading, so no real issue there)
Also, how about shebagging? And all the other unacceptable behavior people have in public transportation? I've seen people clipping their nails, blasting music(?) on their phone, etc
We're headed down a dangerous path with these regulations.
On the other hand I saw my fair share of jackasses on public transportation (feet over a seat, bringing in bikes during peak hours when it is explicitly forbidden, screaming on phone, drinking beer and then throwing the can on the floor, occupying more than one seat) and -- surprise surprise -- males and females were equally represented among jackasses.
This feminist trend of making up problems and sticking a "male" label on it really makes me sick!
You are surely kidding?
And in 30 years using public transportation in 2 different countries I call bs on the claim that assholes are equally represented among men and women. It might be a matter of education (women be quiet, men be loud and mainly), but 90% of the times there's issues these are caused by men. Usually in groups.
And btw yes, the problem, as it is described by the sexist slur "manspreading", exists just in a feminist's mind.
In my experience men and women are equally represented among assholes. I'm glad you shared your different personal experience, though.
I think it's quite obvious that the term term "manspreading" has been coined in a feminist environment and that this inflammatory rethoric is typical of modern feminism. Do you need sources?
For the sake of public documentation, I'll argue:
It is confrontational because invading my personal space by using more than what's assigned to you is unnecessary and rude. Let me repeat something: I am a man and I also suffer from idiots spreading their legs like they've got balls the size of Jupiter. There's no physical nor biological reason for that, like not at all.
Women don't do it. I'm sure you can show me one example of a woman doing it, I can show you 2-3 men per bus trip, easily. It's a matter of education, how we have been educated. Men are educated to become alpha, to use their body to an advantage. Women are educated to be quiet and submissive.
It's not "feminine" to sit spreading your legs. It's very masculine to spread legs and arms, to show a bigger physical presence.
If you can't see why that's wrong then there's little hope for you. Even worse, if you think "feminist" means "against men" then I'm afraid you had a terrible upbringing.
Yes, I do think that modern feminism has a big component of man hating, and that's a pity, given the great tradition of sane feminism quite some years ago.
If you cannot see how putting a "man" label over some negative behavior is sexist, I don't know what can save from all this internalized mysandry.
Maybe you should try and change your point of view: female have mood swings much more often than men. It's biological, happens once per months, more or less. Should we call this "femm-whining" or "woman-swings"? Female cry much more than men, should we call this "femm-crying"?
That would be as sexist as "manspreading". I believe any decent person should avoid these sexist slurs altogether.
I'm not losing any argument because you're hardly arguing. You're just closing your eyes to facts: Men are educated differently, hence they act differently. Our society is unfair to women and we keep educating our child with the same mistakes.
On the other hand, you're claiming women have "mood swings once per month", I'm guessing you're referring to their period. I can't even find the words to describe how despicable has been your attitude on this whole thread, but this deserves the Nobel prize of misogyny.
You keep trying to paint yourself as the victim, making it all not only disgusting, but pretty pathetic.
The term manspreading is not sexist because it is something you can fix with education, mainly because it's an educational flaw. We're brought up with the wrong values that put women at a disadvantage, yet you want to compare that to having the period.
And I would mention your upbringing when I feel like to, which is usually when you have shown enough proof of a flawed upbringing (which is common, starting with my own). I'm not sure why you think I shouldn't be allowed to mention it, when it's 100% relevant to you holding a specific opinion.
Do you get like this every time you ideas are being questioned? Usually people here on HN are much more open to different viewpoints. How thick is the bubble you live in, not to realize that people may not accept the feminist viewpoint? (Only 10% of population defines themselves as feminist! There's a world outside your bubble!)
You say that our society is unfair to women, however there are many aspects in which it is unfair to men. In my country and in most European countries women are graduating from university at a much higher rate than men. Where is the feminist outrage? Nowhere to be seen, feminism is NOT about equality.
The wage gap (another feminist construct, but still, let's play this game) is negative for part time workers. Women earn more than men in that category. Again, no feminist outrage. They just don't care about equality.
Finally, the term "manspreading" is indeed sexist, as per dictionary definition of sexism, because it is promoting a stereotype about a gender. That's the definition of sexism in my dictionary. Get over it.
Btw, again, I feel that mentioning the upbringings of someone you know nothing about, it's a very sore way of losing an argument. Grow up and discuss facts rather than unsubstantiated (and blatantly false, besides ridiculous) personal claims.
I am bother by this behavior and I feel it should something people learn when they are kids, not something I should ask for.
I think that we can just try to be humans and ask, it's not really a big deal. As I said even eye contact is enough most often, is it so difficult.
There's no need to start a war, leave along a pointless, sexist war like the proponents of the term "manspreading" are doing.
This campaign is teaching people how they should ask, which is much more efficient and effective that asking one person at the time (moreover if you are the only one ask chanses are you will be seen as an unreasonable person on the train).
For the sexiest part I think it's laughable,as they are not suggesting it's a problem with all men, but that is prominent in men, which for my experience it's true. Btw also their claim as "manspreading" being sexiest is laughable in my opinion, but I agree that it should be stopped (and I am a male).