HN Explorer

"I never saved anything for the swim back"

49 points by marrone ↗ HN
That's a quote from the movie Gattaca by the main character answering his genetically superior brother's question as to how he beat him in a swimming competition in the ocean.

I really like that quote, and thought it was appropriate at a time when YC apps are coming due. Jessica Livingston says in "Founders at Work" that the common trait between the founders was determination. Maybe the best example that I can remember is Evan Williams who went through a lot before Blogger was successful (losing friends and more).

What has struck you guys as the best modern-day example of determination (it need not have turned out successful)?

Another good one was the guy the movie "The Pursuit of Happyness" was based off of (though I'm not sure how accurate that story was)

34 comments

[ 395 ms ] story [ 317 ms ] thread
[deleted]
(comment deleted)
edw519
Reminds me a little of the metaphor that starting a business is like jumping out of an airplane with the materials needed to build a parachute.
Tichy
I liked that quote, too, but at the same time I was wondering if it isn't complete bullshit. In the real world, the guy would simply have drowned.

Maybe it was just another brainwashing attempt by Hollywood (American values bla bla yadda yadda).

Xichekolas
Or maybe it just means we underestimate our abilities, and conserve too much for the swim back.

Or to apply this to startups, instead of giving it your all even at the risk of failure, you never really devote yourself to something, so you have an excuse in the case that you do fail.

(As an aside, I modded you up. Not sure who puts someone at -2 for expressing an opinion.)

ambition
(In reply to the aside: I modded him up too. Some people mod up and down based on whether the comment is on-topic, polite and well-thought-out. Others mod up and down based on agreement with the thought. Guidelines for each are not immediately obvious.)
Xichekolas
Yeah, I'm more of the first type. I'll mod something up if it's on-topic, well thought-out, and I agree with it. I'll only mod something down if it's blatantly off topic and rude/trollish. If I simply don't agree with what they said, but they said it in useful way, I'll just leave it be.

I'm all about modding the people who post goatse links down into negative oblivion, but I think it kind of stifles discussion if you downmod simply because you don't happen to agree. Instead of dog-piling someone for a dissenting opinion, take the extra 30 seconds to write a response. It'll enrich the discussion.

hugh
Discussions about moderation are pretty boring, but I will say that I was one of the ones who modded the original comment down, mostly because I thought that the suggestion that Hollywood is deliberately trying to "brainwash" people into accepting "American values" was just plain silly, and also showed a poor understanding of what "brainwashing" really means, not to mention a poor understanding of how Hollywood works.
Tichy
You think both are false, or Hollywood is brainwashing, just not for American values?

I am under the impression that for example the theme "sacrifice yourself for the common good" is pushed excessively in Hollywood, and I consider it to be brainwashing and American-valueish. In any case, most movies have a kind of moral they want to force upon their viewers. Another common theme is adultery, where cheaters make valid "shock effect victims" (ie if somebody has to die, at least make it the cheater, he is not such a big loss for society).

mixmax
Watch "pumping Iron" - an old documentary following Arnold Schwarzenegger on his quest to become Mr. Universe. Besides the absolute hilarity of seeing a young Arnold pumping his muscles you get a glimpse of why he won mr. universe 6 times, became one of the greatest actors of Hollywood despite the obvious lack of talent, and is now Governor of California.

He is so determined that you won't believe it. So he wins.

marrone
I've seen it actually, and also love that one. Despite Arnold coming off as a cocky ass, he definitely does show his determination when he decides to not go home for his dad's funeral as it would interrupt his training before the event (I think it was his dad's funeral anyways, can't quite remember)
chrisc
it was indeed his dad's funeral
jakewolf
I'd rather get warmed up in a wading pool (day job) and then go for broke.
h34t
My thoughts on this matter were summed up today by Marc Andreessen:

In my view, entrepreneurial judgment is the ability to tell the difference between a situation that's not working but persistence and iteration will ultimately prove it out, versus a situation that's not working and additional effort is a destructive waste of time and radical change is necessary.

I don't believe there are any good rules for being able to tell the difference between the two. Which is one of the main reasons starting a company is so hard.

pg
I don't believe there are any good rules for being able to tell the difference between the two.

Experience helps a lot there. YC has gotten fairly good at it. And when we advise people to give up on some immediate goal and backtrack, they tend to listen, because we're usually pretty optimistic.

gruseom
A few years ago, when struggling with a big decision, I wondered: if persistence is such a good trait, why have I gotten into such trouble with it? The solution I found was to distinguish between persistence and stubbornness. Both are committed to reaching the goal no matter what, but persistence means changing what's not working, while stubbornness simply repeats what's not working.

This distinction has proven quite helpful to me. Your Andreesen quote may be the first time I've run across it elsewhere.

ambition
Someone famous once said something along the lines of:

"Persistence isn't trying the same thing over and over. That's just annoying. Persistence is having the same goals over and over."

marrone
Here is a funny related quote from W.C. Fields:

"If at first you don't succeed, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it."

h34t
Also, I have my own anecdote.

I worked my tail off for a year in China. I had two other founders/partners back in N. America -- I was the only one on-the-ground, and I was also the youngest & most inexperienced.

I basically stayed there until I was physically, mentally, and emotionally sick. I was living in my office and had no salary (expenses covered, nothing more), a tough schedule (mornings & evenings needed to get back in touch w/ N. America), my first experience in management (6 staff or so), and had almost zero encouragement from my partners, because our expenses only increased with time as we realized what we were really getting in to (China is not exactly WYSIWYG when it comes to business) -- and I had no contact with the main decision-maker, who was the only person with any real experience in what we were doing (for political reasons I had to go through founder #2 to get to founder-investor#1).

I was literally stressed out of my mind. I lost a good portion of my short-term memory (until I quit). I could no longer predict what I was able to do in the future -- no ability to manage my own commitments & performance. Forgot why I wanted to live. Took up smoking.

I kept going as long as I did because I believed in the value of "sheer persistence". I wish I'd taken more drastic action sooner.

My experience was probably not typical, and so it's probably not worth drawing generalizations from it. But -- I'm incredibly glad that I quit. Today I'm learning new things and I'm happy to be alive -- I feel like a vibrant human being again. And I'm still excited about startups... but not to the point of self-destruction.

marrone
so are you still working as an entrepreneur or not?
h34t
Sort of. I stayed in south east asia to live cheap & learn python. Supporting myself on a few hours of work per week makes it easy to tinker, have fun, and figure out what to build next by "playing".

So I'm not in the midst of a startup right now, but when it comes to my next serious effort, I can't really imagine myself doing anything else.

chengmi
The part that often gets overlooked is knowing what you want. Once you've figured that out, don't quit until you get there.

Glad you're feeling better.

lee
I think this is a trait common among entrepreneurs and other high achievers. I have a similar story, and it's good to find, test and expand your limits. It's good to know that you can crunch in the short term without fear if it's necessary. And it's good to improve your ways of going about things so it doesn't happen again.
ess
I believe the problem here is just microfocus. When people focus too much on one thing, they tend not to take a step back every now and then to see if things are still the same as when you started. Let's say I want to start a business in china making valves for microturbines. I spend half a year and progress is very slow. It's time to realise that things are bad, take a step back and review the process. If things are hard, you are doing something wrong.

Sometimes it's neccesary to work hard. But sometimes is not a year. One has to take life in 6 month chunks, and you only have about 140 of those. You lose one, you will never get it back. A year is two of those chunks. It's too much time to be unhappy in.

I'm one of the fastest developers I know because I was taught the technique - when things start going slow, stop, zoom out and analyse the reason why it's going slow. Then go back in, but approach things differently. This time you want to maintain the quality of work, but reduce the time spent on it. It's not difficult to optimize that.

nostrademons
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki/?SlowDownToSpeedUp

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SharpenTheSaw

BTW, this'll be familiar to anyone that's learned a musical instrument. The way you get speed in music is to slow down the tempo until it's at a level where you can easily play the piece (with a new piece, this is often 1/4 or less of actual speed). Then you work on control and rhythm only, until you've got it perfect. Then gradually bump up the tempo for as long as you can maintain control. If you start getting sloppy, slow it down and practice more at the lesser tempo. Eventually, you'll be able to play it perfectly at tempo, with a good reserve if you wanna speed it up for effect.

phaedrus
That's the big problem people fail to mention when they talk about persistence - the trick is to be persistent at the right things! Being persistent at the wrong thing is sometimes hard to recognize until the point where you go down with the sinking ship.
wallflower
Rick Little. 155 grant proposals turned down. Stubbornness paid off. Eventually awarded second-largest-ever grant in US History ($65M)

This reads sort-of like an underdog movie...

"Rick had one last chance. Activated by desperation and conviction, he managed to talk himself past several secretaries and he secured a lunch date with Dr. Russ Mawby, President of the Kellogg Foundation..."

http://www.iyfnet.org/section.cfm/2/242/545

"Rick Little’s life is a testament to the power of commitment to a high vision, coupled with a willingness to keep on asking until one manifests the dream."

Yes, from Chicken Soup from the Soul

icky
> Chicken Soup from the Soul

Normally it just comes from chicken stock...

TrevorJ
I just saw that movie for the first time the other night! Great film, great quote!
parker
This reminds of me the archetype of the 'hero's journey', best described by Joseph Campbell. Which basically perfectly underlines why successful enrepreneurs are considered our contemporary heroes. Fighting against impressive odds with limited resources and little to no regard for one's own safety? Sounds pretty heroic to me...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey

andreyf
As someone that's done a modest amount of swimming, that's a horrible metaphor. If you don't pace yourself, there's no way you'll win a race.
undetected
You have to put it in context then. It wasn't about speed, it was about who was willing to go further out on the water, knowing they had to have enough energy to swim back to shore.
sutro
These questions are very profound, Mr Dedalus, said the dean. It is like looking down from the cliffs of Moher into the depths. Many go down into the depths and never come up. Only the trained diver can go down into those depths and explore them and come to the surface again. -James Joyce, "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man"