Ask HN: After working 70+ hrs a week my manager says no for promotion
I am angry at myself for being stupid. I worked for 70+ hrs a week for one year and built a new groundbreaking platform. During my recent conversation with my manager, he told me it's not enough for promotion and we should wait. I did my best to convince him.
I am wondering what did I do wrong? Quite frequently I get walked over by people. Although I am good at workplace politics I am not best. I am baffled that men and women who are underperforming are going to be put for promotion. I know first hand two people who have caused delays in projects are going to be considered. All they have is probably strong connection with their managers.
How do you navigate workplace politics and getting ahead in the career? Changing job is one option but how long I can keep running from situation? Also,given the state of technical interview and irrationality to ask any irrelevant question, I don't know if I wanna go through it again anytime soon.
What do I need to do to move ahead and up in the career?
83 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 154 ms ] threadGo out on the market. Update your resume, try to get an offer. Be ready to accept it. Negotiate with your manager and show them empirical evidence you're worth more.
The reason you have to be willing to accept the other offer is that the moment you approach your manager with it, they might decide to replace you rather than promote you. But counterintuitively, your willingness to accept the other offer will work in your favor and is more likely to get you promoted than replaced.
Do not under any circumstances assume that loyalty to your job will be rewarded in any way. The fact that your manager was willing to let you work 70 hour weeks for a year is evidence you were being taken advantage of. That's life, though. The way to win is to play the game.
(There are situations where letting an employee work 50+ hour weeks is justifiable, e.g. if the employee goes into it with eyes wide open and without any implicit promises of future promotion or future compensation increases. Quarterly reviews with salary increases would also take it out of the "being taken advantage of" category.)
As a final note, it's very common for employees to force themselves to work crazy hours without any encouragement from management. It's not necessarily management's job to stop you from doing that, though a good manager will. I did this to myself my first couple of jobs, and had only myself to blame. I'm not saying you necessarily were doing that, but it's such a common story for someone to come into the industry with something to prove and convince themselves to dedicate their life to their job to the exclusion of all else.
Go home each day after putting in 8 hours. The door's right there. If you work harder than that, you should feel like you're getting an excellent deal out of it. And no, promoting you doesn't automatically count as an excellent deal. You should still probably work 8 hours outside of very special situations.
EDIT: If you're feeling upset that you got taken advantage of, don't sweat it. A year isn't such a big deal in the scheme of things. You're far more equipped now for your upcoming years than one year ago, for example.
By all means do a good job, but don't kill yourself. Your employer will not do the same for you.
Know your worth. You need to calculate in your head how much you save the company through automation and take it back to the pen / paper and filing cabinet days. It's probably in the hundreds of thousands a year. If a company is expecting you to kill yourself, it's because of their screw up. The guy asking you will take the credit for the miracle you provided because of his excellent management skills.
The OP should take that as the slap in the face that it is and move on to a company that is more appreciative of his skills.
Also, don't work for cheap, it dilutes the craft.
I wonder if there's a way to protect against that.
But if you are nothing more than a work donkey to him, and he likely has other pets at office who will receive his favors regardless, just take the new offer and leave.
Either way, I'd suggest rolling the dice and starting over elsewhere. And this time, OP needs to be really clear with the new manager on what OP wants and what work or deliverables gets OP there.
You're right that if they were pushing him to work these insane hours for months then it's time to politely part ways. Such abuse was common in the gamedev industry: http://ea-spouse.livejournal.com/
In many cases even this doesn't work. That is unfortunately how toxic politics really is. Politics is an art of manipulating people and deceiving them into doing things.
In the case you mentioned, its possible that the manager will agree for the deliverables on hand. When the time for reward comes, they will simply say there were other contenders and delivered more than you did. You can't argue much from there, because they will start throwing in the 'confidentiality' card saying "You don't know how much more the other guy delivered".
Its always easy to say this because you don't have any way of verifying it. And calling their BS on their face means permanently damaging your relationship. Then you have no option but to leave.
In short: If you have this kind of a manager, stop fighting the system, just leave.
Never take a promotion offered to convince you to stay.
Have a job ready but ask for a promotion without revealing that you have an offer. If they promote, great. If they don't, just leave. If they delay or waffle over the decision, leave. The delay tactics are to pressure the employee psychologically to reveal that he/she has an offer and needs to know about a promotion decision by such and such date.
Also it's a good idea to do this around the time of the company's annual review/promotion period (it's not easy to have perfect timing but good to try).
I'm really excited for you.
Broder experience should help, you'll begin to see patterns based on the different places you've worked and be better equipped to handle the problems you encounter.
The only jobs I've really regretted are those I stayed at too long. The last years seem like a waste of time, I could of provided more value, and got more useful experience elsewhere.
But definitely quit.
That said, by far the most efficient way to progress in your career is to not let your employers take you for granted by changing jobs every 2 years or so unless things are seriously on fire.
Another bit of advice: do not work much more than 40 hours a week on a sustained basis. Over my 20 year career I have observed negative correlation between that and promotions.
Isn't that a strange twist of human nature in the US workplace? The harder you work, the less respected you are. It's absolutely true though.
You can't do that if you bite of more than you can chew. You _can_ do that if you manage your time properly and say "no" often. That way you have some slack to recover if things go wrong, and deliver on your commitments.
Merely feeling or behaving like a doormat for no reason will make many people around uneasy. Any situation that shows you somehow deserve it, relieves them. If they aren't self-aware enough to recognize this, congratulations, you are training them to exploit you.
Start looking out for people. Think of the group rather than yourself.
Working x hours a week doesn't mean you should get promoted. Getting promoted has nothing to do with how hard you work but fulfilling the requirements for you to get promoted. If you want to get promoted, talk to your manager and figure out what you need to do to get promoted.
For example, at Google to get promoted you have to show that you are already performing at the level you want to be promoted to. The difference between different levels has nothing to do with how many hours or how hard you work, but with scope, so unless you're given a project that has an appropriate scope for the next level, you aren't going to be able to be promoted, and it's much easier to get things which help you fulfill those requirements if you talk to your manager.
In summary, talk to your manager and good luck.
Really, do you want more money or a better title? A better title doesn't really help at all and in fact can hinder. What you want is more money. Best way to get that is to move to another company.
If you want to be promoted to management, you need to learn politics and management. Lots of books on audible can help you with that.
If you have opportunity on one hand and money on the other. Always chose opportunity, because a good opportunity will lead to better money in the future.
But the above doesn't hold for everyone, and thus I don't in general agree with your assessment.
I assume that when you are asking for promotion you would have already been doing the job you were hired to do and very well at that. That being the case, if you talk with your manager and they know you want to get promoted and are willing to help you, I see no reason they would be upset about you performing at a higher level.
Of course, every company and even team is different so this doesn't necessarily apply to everyone.
> Really, do you want more money or a better title? A better title doesn't really help at all and in fact can hinder. What you want is more money. Best way to get that is to move to another company.
At a well run company, a better title should come with more money but again, all companies are different.
Some transitions take time. Going from engineer to management is one. Most of the people I've met that did this stayed at a company for several years to make that jump happen.
Why is this important? Going from place to place as an engineer might net $5-10k per hop, but the numbers and incentives from going from engineer to management and then transitioning into another company are much much larger.
My guess is you work at a big corporate. Then Im sorry to break out the bad news to you. You managers knows too well that you are hard working and deliver results. But he likely has a political cartel going on, due to which it doesn't really matter how hard you work. In fact you can even do 120 hr work week and all you would be at the end is a useful work donkey on which he can dump all the work while he rewards his lackeys. Never ever ever, contribute good work to an unfair system.
And yes you got it right, your only option is to keep hopping jobs until you find the right manager. There is no known solution to this problem unless you wish to be as big a fraud and cheat as much as they are or bigger.
The only advice I can give to you is to not take this to your head. Spend your time being productive, useful and gaining skills as you spend time in this profession. These investment pay on the longer run.
But as far office politics itself is concerned. Alas there is no other solution. Unless you find a manager that can take care of you, or you are just enjoying an insane patch of luck. You just have to suffer through politics.
No known solution exists.
I have read about 'making your manager look good' as a tactic for promotion, and that seems to make sense too, but I've never really tried it. This probably means not bringing up any bad news too.
This all may seem cynical, but I've seen it work for other people.
Is it truly groundbreaking on its own merit or is this a personal adjective?
If you are part of a team and you are putting in long hours where other team members (çloser to bosses ear) are not, you may brew issues. Pull others in, delegate, share some credit, involve the team.
How well have you self-promoted this groundbreaking (yuge claim btw) platform outside of your own team? Does anyone else at the company know your name or are you the "guy in the basement carrying/justifying three positions with your output"?
It is very tough to catch rec in a large org where everyone is pitted against eachother for promotions.
Some ideas are:
1. Be careful touting your hours worked as a metric for promotion. Sometimes you look like a sucker rather than a leader deserving promo. Also toutimg hours automatically makes coworkers appear bad. If they have the managers ear, you tell me how this goes.
2. Consider the word "promotion". If your looking to a manager to "promote you", make it easy for him/her by promoting yourself first. Show other groups/team members this project. Become a trainer. Shake hands and kiss babies accross your org. Let them have no option but to speak your name in conjuction with this groundbreaking platform.
Im in a similar boat. The above are some things ive done to stand out and be promoted. Lots of groundwork over 3-4 years.
If the game is to move up the ladder, then it's best to understand what management thinks is important. What does your boss really value, and how do you think they see you?
If you know underachievers that are getting promoted, then somebody doesn't think they're underachievers. Are they more vocal/communicative about their work? Do they take your boss(es) out for lunch or hang out on the weekends? Do they dream up new initiatives and share ideas? Good work often goes overlooked, so it's probably on you to make sure your bosses know what you're up to.
You might even consider seeking an objective appraisal of your work (well, as objective as possible). Does your new platform _really_ deliver enough value to warrant a promotion? Maybe, I have no idea.
If it turns out that your work really _is_ undervalued, and the politics game isn't for you, then it might be better to move on.
I would read these two books:
How to Win Friends and Influence People
Thinking Fast and Slow
Startups that tout "we work hard, we play hard", avoid them. That is synonymous with "you work hard, we hope to profit". Sadly at a YC recruiting event some years back there was an SF startup touting "we are a family" and "we meet with customers after hours to get input" as positive things. I wish I recalled the name of the startup. Unless it is your own startup or you have significant equity (founders shares), your 70 hours is a nice charitable gift to management and the investors.
I've been guilty of this. Caring about the company, product, etc. only to pull my head out of my ass, realize the negative impact on my life and walked away before the 1st year cliff of vesting.
First, I would recommend taking a long look at your communication skills. Growing in the workplace is often about effectively selling your vision and then making sure it gets executed. Whether its a corporate strategy or a update to an internal microservice, you're going to need to get people to buy-in to your ideas. Just because you can do the work, doesn't mean you can get other people to do the work too.
Second, another concern of mine is that you aren't properly understanding the goals of the company, or those of your immediate supervisors at least. If you put in an insane amount if hours and hit all your deadlines, but people who work less and cause delays are being considered for a promotion instead of you, it leads me to believe you might be doing things you aren't asked to do, which leads me to believe you might be a bit of a rogue employee, always doing what you think is best even if it's not what your supervisor wanted.
Finally, another nod to communication skills. The fact that you put in so much time and your colleagues might not be, makes me wonder if you don't work well in a team. If you're a solo 10xer, great! but you still have to work with other people if you want to grow within a company.
regardless, the absolute most important thing is that you are very correct to question the circumstance. Something has to change!
It's so hard for me personally. It can be really discouraging knowing your idea is good but you can't get any buy in. I have to stop and think, and ask myself "is it worth it for me to jump on my sword for this?" Often times the answer is no.
If you are having a hard time with this, take a step back, instead of telling people what you think would be better, ask what they think would be better.
It's easier to get people to put time into something they already believe in rather than a whole new idea.
The second possibility is that there's a missing communication gap here. As you've discovered, effort alone is not the key to success. Effort may get you between basic levels, e.g. Programmer 1 to Programmer 2, but not necessarily from Programmer to Team Lead where there's more expectations beyond technical skills like mentoring, working between organizations, etc
Some questions to ask yourself and possibly discuss further with manager:
1. Why did the 70+ hours go on for a year? Was this coming down from top level or self imposed? Where was the communication about sustainability, or outcomes upon completion?
2. Where was the 1:1s and check-ins during this project that you got to the end before knowing the outcome? You own your 1:1s, use them to discuss your career goals, advancement, and blockers, not just as a status update. Schedule them if your manager isn't.
3. Was your manager previously aware of your desire to get promoted? Remember, not everyone wants to get promoted. Have you previously discussed goals, measures, and skills to obtain this?
4. If you previously discussed the goals and measures, why did this 70+hr/wk project not align with these goals? This in particular is a failure of management. "Crunch time" is a given in industry at times, but this seems into Death March territory if it was top-down.
4(b). If the previously discussed goals did align with this project, what else is missing that didn't get met? If everything did get met, argue to that positioning and discussion rather than "I worked really hard and made a thing."
5. How was your communication of the work you were performing and completing? Sell benefits, not features. Did others perhaps think that you worked long hours because of your lack of skill, thus requiring more hours to make it up?
1. It's 10% about what you do. And 90% about how you present it. Presentation includes getting people to people know your value, your impact to the business, and most importantly, talking yourself up, and talking yourself up to the right people :). The higher you go, the more important this is. Which goes to point 2:
2. The higher you go, the more it is about who you know, and how well you know them. Who's ear have you got? How influential are they, and who are they influencing? What do people think of you?
3. Then it's your teammates, and your peers. You want to get promoted, but what do they think? Are they going to support you? The company thinks of this too.
You mentioned people who have caused delays, being considered for promotion instead of yourself. How well do they hit the above 3 points?
The higher you go, the more that it becomes a people job instead of a technical job. One thing to ask yourself as well is, do you want to go up? Or do you want to stay technical? If you want to go up, better get in the game!
It's normal to get frustrated on the journey up the ladder. As others have mentioned, the hours are only the entry price, there's many other factors at play here. Btw, as you'll know when you become a manager, his job is to make sure you deliver - and you have, for one year already, 70 hours a week. His job is not to get you what you want, his job is to make sure you work (and the harder that he can make you work, the better). Personally I don't agree with this approach, and it's not one I use, but then again, I've personally had many managers like this.
Ultimately, you will be promoted. I'm sure of it. You're already talking to the right people (this audience :)). It'll just take time. How much time, depends on how well you master factors 1-3 above.