Ask HN: Lack of self-discipline driving me hopeless. Tips?

I wouldn't rule out something medically not quite optimal with your brain and you may want to talk to a professional about some medication to help bring things in to a balance (you didn't mention that you'd done that yet or not).

Medical aspects aside, it sounds like you've not been able to find a niche yet. I'm not trying to trivialize this, but you obviously do have some passion (as others note) but you can't channel it in to something productive for very long. It also sounds like you're trying to do this all on your own.

There are people who remain stuck in one routine for years or decades. You have the ability - probably a compulsion - to get in to new situations routinely. Believe it or not, this would be seen as an asset in many organizations. A 'presales engineer' position (if you're technical) might be a great position to get in to, as you're constantly getting in to new situations and people, most of whom you won't need to deal with a few weeks or months after the sale is made.

Without sounding trite, suicide isn't the answer. You've likely got quite a lot to offer. You're on HN after all ;) I hate to just say 'go get counseling and medication' - I think there's probably other things you can do outside of that, or in addition to that course.

I realize I don't know you much, except for what you've posted here, but I really don't think things are as hopeless for you as they may feel right now. I don't think I've had things as bad as you're describing, but I am known for an extreme inability to focus/concentrate on anything for very long. I don't tout it, but have worked on coping strategies over the years. Eventually I found a book by Barbra Sher (http://www.barbarasher.com) - well, she's got a few. Wishcraft might be a decent one to start with. It's free, and while a bit airy fairy at times, might help you to see things in a different light. I was first turned on to Sher when I was reading up on the problem of TMI (Too Many Interests).

http://knacks.esmartdesign.com/#The_Too_Many_Aptitude_Proble... was the first article I'd found, which seemed to describe me to a T. I've since self-diagnosed myself with that 'condition' and went looking for info which would help me learn more about that. There's no 'magic bullet cure', but that bit of self-knowledge has helped me avoid situations which I knew would make me miserable, and have slowly forged a better, more fulfilling life (though even now, I keep changing my goal posts).

The biggest thing I learned from that little journey is that there's nothing 'wrong' (in an absolute sense) with that condition - it's just different.

If you'd care to discuss any of this further, please ping me at any time at mgkimsal@gmail.com or 919-827-4724.

Maybe you're being too hard on yourself? Most people don't have the productive energy in the first place that leads to start-ups or side-projects or even perhaps new friendships. In fact the moments in my life where I feel really inspired and enthusiastic about something (usually leading to greatly increased productivity) are few and far between. Sure I'd like to have more of them, but I don't think I could ever make that the norm. Sounds like for you, those moments are frequent enough you believe they could be sustained indefinitely...

Otherwise I don't have much advice except do well for yourself and never be ashamed of it.

First, get suicide out of your mind. The very thought is ridiculous. None of this is worth killing yourself over. Second, what expectations are you setting for yourself? If your self-vision is not meeting reality, that's a major cause of disappointment right there. Change your self-vision. Third, who said anything is "wrong" with you? People have different temperaments. Some people bond tightly with others, some do not. As long as you're not harboring sociopathic or homicidal thoughts that prevent you sticking to others, it's not much to worry about. Fourth, in regards to expectations, do you imagine what others might expect from you -- and this is the underlying reason to avoid them? Does having to see other people feel like confronting a school test, with that sinking feeling you're being put on the spot and might fail? Well, that's shyness. Medicine claims to have a pill for that, but I really don't trust mind pills (all pills have revenge effects sooner or later). Lastly, you are young. The opportunities available to you are many -- perhaps too many. Whittle down everything to what you really love and want to do. Once you've got that settled (and this won't happen in just one day, so be patient), once you know your passion, everything else falls into place on its own -- because you will naturally gravitate to people who share that and being around them won't feel like a test. One other thing. You might want to read The Outsiders by Colin Wilson. This will give you some insight into just how different people can be -- but that didn't stop any of the people in that book from gaining prominence. I hope some of this helped.

You should absolutely find a psychiatrist or counselor. They deal with people going through this ALL. THE. TIME.

I absolutely believe that people run to medications too quickly these days, but drugs like Adderall et al. help people like you to find focus, break self-destructive patterns, and get back to a baseline of normal.

Find a therapist. This is the kind of thing they are expert at a fixing. Don't jump straight to drugs, just find out why you do what you do. There is probably a good reason for it all. You just need a little help sorting it all out.

Hi, I don't really understand your lack of self discipline. I am going to probably go off on some incredibly poorly written tangent here, but please work through it; friend :)

The lack of focus and discipline is something i totally understand, and I think that it might be a product of your your readings if you have in fact worked through say the Kiyosaki books or equivalent. You had a taste of the high from doing your startup, you hopefully learned a whole hell of a lot and you really like that idea(that life) and that's fine. Maybe you were sold on the ideologies they sell, and that's great, they can be achieved, I promise. Maybe it isn't working out for you right now, but you are merely 23. I am 29 now, everything(literally) in my life has changed since I was 23. Education, housing, girls, friends, employment etc.

I think it boils down to a few things really, your entire ambiguity toward life is something i somewhat understand but something you should really address. I think you need to find something to work toward, be it a new start-up or anything. Just because you "failed" once it doesn't mean you'll fail again. Remember that :)

I think you need to simply pick something and get it done, something you can totally get behind.

Maybe you are avoiding something you need to do that you aren't doing? That has been my case in the past.

Also don't go through with suicide. I went through it with my dad a few years ago(he succeeded, after a botched attempt a month earlier).... It isn't something I would wish on my worst enemy's family...

I hope you take care and heed the other advice here, I just felt compelled to weigh in and seeing this phone number from another user here makes me feel a little better about writing here on hacker news.

Definitely find a therapist if you have suicidal thoughts, but also consider spending some of your time with those less fortunate than yourself. This can add a lot of perspective. For example, John Vonier founded La'Arche http://www.larche.org/home.en-gb.1.0.index.htm , a set of homes where individuals with and without mental disabilities live together, and he firmly believes that the non-disabled benefit at least as much and probably more than the disabled from the relationship.

Difficult to say much from a forum post... errors in self perception are probably a large part of the problem. I don't think you have a motivation problem. You seem to start lots of things. I have a motivation problem. I haven't started anything (let alone an actual 'startup') in a very long time.

One thing that strikes me is how long you last with what ever endeavour you undertake... 1 - 2 weeks is very short, especially for a relationship. I don't think that is enough time to genuinely lose interest. I take this to mean that either you didn't really want to do the thing in the first place or are afraid of something.

I don't think medicalising the issue is a good first option, as other people have said. You describe some depressive-like features such as hopelessness, loss of enjoyment, social withdrawal, weird dazes... but once you label this as a disease, it becomes very difficult to deal with it in other than a medical fashion. Having said that, if you are reading about suicide, I would get professional help.

I don't have any particular advice. It may be that entrepeneurial pursuits (which are open ended, with ill defined goals and little feedback) are not the right thing for you at this stage of life. I would also suggest you try something which places no pressure on you, and isn't encompassed by the failure cycle you describe. An example would be some sort of volunteer work, or a (team) sport/hobby. (A startup doesn't count as volunteer work.)

Are you a perfectionist? Do you want to accomplish so many things your mind reels with the possibilities, but can't figure out which ones are worth the all out effort it takes for success?

Did you always think, "I've got some great things ahead of me", and now you ARE grown up and this IS the future and you're worried about what you have to show for it?

Maybe you want to have great friendships and do great things and all these seem to require so much energy and attention and so many steps to not mess up. If that's the case, I'd say try dialing back, focus on enjoying the journey and less on the result, because really there is no guarantee that the results will be awesome.

You say people respect you for many things but that you have a "terrible" problem with discipline and focus, something I suspect most everyone has. Maybe you're just giving yourself too much pressure and need to take it easy for a few months? Since you're still in school, have a chat with a psychological counselor on campus. To me it sounds like you might be temporarily stressed out or burned out from the efforts of your previous startup.

Peace.

You sound like me a few years ago. I since found out I have ADD.

You might have it too. You might want to get checked.

Your lack of focus on a particular thing sounds similar to the cycle I have found myself in. Discover, learn, master, get bored.

I have my own concerns about this cycle, but it does have an upside you can channel; I have been picking up new skills left and right. As an example, I am currently fixing up a motorcycle I bought for real cheap. My passion for mechanics has long abated, but I still find it mildly pleasant and I want the goal (getting the bike running). Because I was so deep into cars and motorcycles for a while, I am quite excellent at servicing now. I know exactly what to do without much trouble, which enriches my life by opening doors and extending the life of my vehicles.

Virtually anything complicated enough to be stimulating can work with this cycle. I am currently contemplating diving into nutrition. I'll get completely bored of food after a while, but for the rest of my life I'll have the skills and knowledge to tap into.

I'm in the same boat. I have always loved and tried to make startups work. I read all the books and all that jazz. I took a giant leap of faith and failed. Slowly but surely I have started to get my life in order again. I have tried sucide before and failed. After that I have refused to try again. I see that as the easy way.

Now I'm starting to get my hopes back up and there are people around me that believe in me. I would highly recommend reading "think and grow rich". Ever heard of the book "the secret"? They ripped off that book.

I often find myself too making new friends only to not keep them after a year or so. Sometimes less. That's part of life.

Find something you like to do and obsess over it. That's what I'm doing now.

Also you will always need balance in your life and the focus and motivation will come.

Again, if you haven't read think and grow, read it and follow the instructions outlined within that book. If you have read it, read the damn thing again.

My suggestions:

1. You will grow out of some of this, even without therapy and/or medication. At least I did.

2. Exercise and eat right, try cutting down especially on caffeine, sugar and anything else that seems to have a weird effect on you.

3. Take up something you are bad at or that you have never done. Such as learning a different language, guitar, etc. Reason is that you are skimming the cream off the top of your abilities - I think if you choose something you can fail at, then you realized you failed but are still alive, it will give you a better perspective.

This world is very tough on non-conformists. Hang in there.

Sounds like you need some momentum to get the wheels turning again. Your mind sounds a bit claustrophobic - that is to say, lots going on that's making you go crazy. Go find some adventure and get off the road you're on. Go do something that 'crazy' people do. One time I was really really frustrated, so I traveled around the world (sounds absurd, but that's basically how simple my thought process was and how little planning i did. I just convinced myself I could make it up as I go). Getting on the road will distance yourself from a lot of things on your mind, provide some clarity on things that are important, and make you focus on immediate problems - like where to sleep so you don't get robbed and how you're going to get from A to B because the bus route in the book or on the website doesn't exist anymore. You'll learn a lot about yourself by dealing with things as they come, by meeting cool people, and by seeing new markets for your ideas everywhere you go. I was dead broke when I got back, and I slept on my friend's floor for 2 months before paying him any backrent - but hey, what're friends for. It didn't cost me a fortune, just most of what I made working summers in college.

I have said this 3 times on here already, however, it has been so effective I feel its worth sharing again.

This is the only thing that has worked for me and it worked fantastically:

1) Start with some Black Tea. In my experience the caffeine in black tea causes less of crash than coffee.

2) Hemmingways Hack: http://www.secondactive.com/2009/08/boost-your-productivity-...

3) And the Pomodoro Technique http://www.pomodorotechnique.com This has hemmingsways hack built in. If done right (read the PDF) it is amazing.

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As far as that last paragraph, it sounds like your depressed.

Depression is the most common mental health concern in our culture today. The main reason for this phenomenon is our dysfunctional lifestyle. We have stripped away supports such as family and community and replaced them with material objects, larger homes, entertainment centers, and more time at work for money and success, rather than interest, meaning, or passion. The lack of support, connectedness, and meaning leaves people feeling empty, lost, and depressed. These negatives feelings are symptoms trying to tell us that we're being deprived of essential human nutrients: to be seen, heard, and understood. Thus, depression is a healing crisis. -- http://www.wholenesstherapy.com/public/anxiety.htm

Like everyone else has said go see a counselor. You should be talking to some one about these feelings.

To me it sounds like you depression is stemming from a feeling of a lack control and a feeling that you don't have the power to make a change. If you can, I recommend reading this book http://www.amazon.com/Transformation-Understanding-Levels-Ma...

I'm only bringing this up because no-one did but read up on bipolar disorder and see if any of it clicks with you.

There's a wide spectrum of bipolar disorders (it's not all just super mania and super depression) and what you're saying sounds like it could be connected to this (the flip flopping, the doing OK one moment, not so good the next). Of particular interest should be bipolar II: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_II_disorder

Bipolar is, IMHO, a significantly bigger deal than having ADD or a mere lack of willpower. It is a commonly misunderstood condition and one that a lot of normal advice regarding depression or personality disorders will not help. Unfortunately it can also be a very difficult condition to "admit" you have, especially to yourself, so it's worth at least reading up about it ASAP "just in case."

Disclaimer: I have a bipolar disorder that's self managed (no medicines) and over the last few years I've come up with a lot of techniques and tricks to take advantage of it and reduce its negative effects. Before that, though, things were.. not so good :-)

I sympathize with you. All I can say is that.. don't give up. Somewhere, sometime, you'll ready enjoy what you're doing and you will look back at this sad time of your life and think: Damn, I'm so happy I didn't give up.

Also, it's easy to make friend and I agree with you that it's hard to be motivated to stick with them.. However, I'm sure you'll encounter real friend where you won't need to be motivated.. you'll just enjoy being with them as they will be part of your life. Same with girls.. once you'll find someone that you really like (and not only the first kick), you'll be actually happy to spend time with her and she'll help you to get more motivated.

Finally, next with the startup.. once you'll really enjoy your project, it will be so much easier to stick with it and get motivated. And sometime, the best way to motivate you, is to start small and publish something.. with real people around the world waiting for your next version, it really does give a little kick in the but :p

I second (or nth) the see a doctor and talk about your focus and mood difficulties. The root issue of your difficulties might simply be a chemical imbalance of some sort (some variant of bipolar disorder (manias and lows) or inattentive adhd).

Go talk to a doctor such as eg a psychiatrist (get a referral from your normal doctor perhaps?) and be very very clear about every relevant anecdote in your entire life about your troubles. Mood/attention disorders can be very frustrating when unmanaged, especially since in many cases when you talk about difficulties that are ultimately due to such to most other people, their response is like "no biggie, just do it" or the like.

That being said, this is just one avenue worth investigating and many of the other posts will probably speak of much more likely applicable approaches.

But seriously, its always a good idea to talk to a doctor when theres nontrivial physical or mental distress that is evading solution.

Dude, you don't have ADD. You aren't bipolar. You're a normal young man -- or at least within the range of normal for young men. Forget therapists. Forget drugs. Forget everything you've been told, and join the Army. Seriously. Trust me. Yes, yes, I know that you don't know me. But you're describing me in this post, and a lot of guys I knew back when I was in: Smart guys, but bored. Can't concentrate in class. Can't suffer fools. Takes a lot to motivate them. They need to be passionate about something before they will even try it, and then they try it, and things don't happen as quickly as they thought they would, and they get discouraged, and their minds wander. And then they try something else, half-way. Fuck that shit. Become a marine. Try to become a paratrooper. Do something physical that attracts a better class of recruit, and don't stop till you get there. It will teach you to finish things that you start. And along the way you'll probably be doing more good for the world than any ten Peace Corps volunteers. Yes yes, I saw that Collateral murder video. Wikleaks is a bunch of liars. When you finish, you'll have learned an important lesson. Which is that more than anything else, winning requires that you show up.

After that, if you still feel useless, you will have plenty of time to kill yourself.

Reading this I felt as if someone was holding up a mirror to me. I am a borderline personality, so in some ways I know how you feel. On the other hand I should be the last person giving you advice as I am a work in progress too, but I need to say a few things to you.

First of all, I know that you probably feel inside that it's wrong for you to be like this, and sometimes you just question why you're a freak. Other times you might question your very existence, and how far you have fallen. After all being hysterical isn't something that you look forward too. I used to feel exactly the same, but then you have those days when everything is beautiful and you are high in ways that is so difficult to define in words. Those days make you wonder even more why you're like this, but the thing is that its okay. There is nothing wrong with you.

I know that this is so clichéd and you hear this all the time, but its true. It takes some time to digest and even more time to accept, but consider the possibility. This curse might actually be a boon in a lot of ways.

Second, is there anyone you love and trust? Talking to people helps a lot, especially when you are down and out. It, in fact, saved my life. I wouldn't be alive bashing this out right now if someone hadn't loved me, guided me and accepted me.

I know that you probably won't talk to them because you don't want to be a burden, but can you imagine how they feel about you? They will in fact be glad that you reached out to them in the darkest moments of your life, and it will show you a side of humanity that most people never see. As this forum proves people can be extremely kind, loving and generous. A lot of people are will go the distance to help you heal. Let them do that.

You are not a burden either. In fact, it's quite probable that you've made a contribution to their life in a way that even you can't define. So, don't plunge the icy dagger of death into them. Reach out to them. Also if you want you can email me at yesthisisananonymousid [at] gmail. (can't post my real id on this forum in case someone from my past reads this)

Third, taking those pills will not be a good experience. At times they are a constant reminder that no matter what you do, what plans you make, what you think, what you dream. You are at the mercy of those tiny bundles of chemicals, and a bunch of receptors in your brain.

DON'T let that stop you from taking them. They are a lifeline in that chaos, and sure there is a cost to taking some of them but it is worth each and every moment. It helps you to breathe in a way that you had long forgotten, and that sense of freedom from your moods is an amazing feeling. Moreover, as time passes on you'll be able to leave that crutch, or reduce it to barely perceptible amounts, and live life free.

Fourth, I want you to know that you really aren't alone. Even though we have never met, and probably never will I want to tell you that I can empathize with you and if you wish I want to be there for you.

Take care.

P.S. - You might get some mileage from the awesome advice lionhearted and others gave me in this thread (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1484882).

Hey dude,

I strongly identify with your feelings - I know that place very well.

Here is the way I hacked it out: 1. Regarding relationships with girls\friend - After years of having too many friends, I understood that almost everyone I met wanted to be friends of mine, this lead to an overload of friends, and made me be not a good friend of a lot of freinds. Once I realized that, I decided to stop socializing with everyone I met, and focus on my closest friends.

Another hack regarding friends - I found that having a certain structure, like meeting every thursday to play poker and playstation - was really good for me.(Of course that I socialize beyond this routine, but this baseline routine with friends really made our friendship strong and fulfilling).

2. Focusing on one thing: I found that working with partners really helps me focus, it is true regarding learning, programming and founding startups.

If you wish to create a new startup - find a partner and make it with him\her - level out with him that you have a focusing problem - and that he should call you out if he sees that you are unfocused or unproductive.

this is very powerful, this discovery has changed my life, it allowed me to open my startups, and today I am the owner of a very successful israeli bootstrapped start up(founded with 2 partners ofcourse).

3. hacking suicide thoughts\meaningless feeling - most important hack of all - imagine being a mountaineer, climbing on the everest, your feet hurt, it is difficult to breath, it is cold, but you still do it because it is your fucking dream.

Now image climbing the everest without a special reason, without having the dream of climbing it - the pain would be the same, but you would hate it so much, it would take so much energy from you, you would be miserable and stop pretty early on.

My point is, my friend - that if you feel that pain overwhelms you - you are currently climbing the wrong mountain(You don't have a burning desire).

You should stop climbing(trying to focus, trying to better yourself, trying to do things) - and decide what is the thing you really want to do. You might not know, you might have some options and you won't be sure which is the "right" dream from you, I can tell you this, life is precious - you should be brave(taking the risk of maybe it is the "wrong" dream) and choose your dream - and fucking go for it full power. Even if in the end you will understand that you didn't "really" want to do that dream, the only true way of finding out is doing it fullpower.

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If all fails - I highly recommend finding a life coach, I have found that they are extremely useful, not trying to figure out whats wrong with you, but just giving you power to do the things you really want to do(and finding out what these things are).

"After a million self-help programs and motivation books that haven't been of much help"

Which self-help programs and books?

Don't change who your are.Take a Job and do stuff that fits you.You will be more productive and best at what you do like that.I am a completely dis-organized person.I sleep when I feel like it,I do stuff when I feel like it etc...So I chose freelancing which suits my style and I am a happy man. "Its not becoming like someone else,its accepting who you are" Good Luck

Read P.J. Eby's "Thinking Things Done". It's unfinished, but chapters 1-7 are very good. You have to sign up for his mailing list to receive them. I found out about this from http://lesswrong.com/lw/21r/pain_and_gain_motivation/

Consider spending a lot of time alone, or at least outside any institution for a while. Hell is other people. It's hard for me to think clearly when other people's thoughts are an important part of my day.

Consider meditating. (See the recently posted "Mindfulness in Plain English"). I just started, but I'm already getting the same euphoric level of concentration that I get from programming.

I know exactly what this is like. I was about the same age as you when I started really getting worried about the same things you are.

If you do everything I say here, it probably won't make you a dynamo overnight. It will help you avoid backsliding, though. Over the next few years, if you are diligent, you will learn new habits.

Step 1: Throw your TV and any video game systems you have in the trash (or more sensibly, disconnect them and put them on craigslist so they are out of your house today). The whole point of startup culture is to give up some fun now (wait, working at a startup IS fun) in exchange for a huge pile of money later. You want to work 80+ hours a week, and probably have a girlfriend too. When does playing Xbox fit in there? In a few years, when you are the founder of a hot, funded startup, you can have an XBOX in your game room. Or you can play it now, and maybe the VC fairy will be impressed by your GTA skills. -- The point is, every minute spent fucking around is a minute you could be working or learning new skills.

Step N: The next time you are wondering "why can't I be productive", imagine a little bell ringing in your head. The bell is there to remind you to sit down and work. If you find yourself browsing reddit or hn or some other site, add entries to your hosts file so that you CAN'T browse those sites. Often the anxiety that keeps a person from being productive is at it's worst at exactly those times that you would otherwise be the most productive. Never visit any distracting site like that from your work area or from your work computer.

Step Na: Give yourself a little goal to accomplish (write it down) when you sit down to work, and don't let yourself get up to do something else (besides restroom breaks) until you accomplish the little goal you wrote down. When you do accomplish it, imagine another 'you' there, and see if that other 'you' would accept the quality of the work if you were an employee. Once you give the work a thumbs up, force yourself to take a 15 minute break. Go outside for a walk, call a friend, just get off the computer. Once you are comfortable with this micro-routine (say after 3 weeks of doing it consistently), check out GTD. Resist the urge to go full on GTD now, however. Most likely you will get distracted setting up notebooks and org-mode or other yak-shaving instead of getting actual work done.

Step X: Make an appointment with a psychiatrist that has experience treating adults with depression, ADHD and anxiety issues. It may help a lot, and it can't hurt.