> What the FUCK is wrong with this industry, that thinks it can destroy people like this?
I would echo this sentiment if it were "What the FUCK is wrong with my colleagues?"
I have never had a sour personal experience involving any coworkers in tech. Not sexism, racism, anything-ism. Never once, I'm over 5 years in (developer as well).
I've had terrible experiences before I moved to tech.
I know it's just an anecdote--like yours--and I feel fortunate and lucky.
Anyway, I can't echo your sentiment that it's an entire industry. Nearly the entire tech industry would be appalled and disgusted by the behavior of the people in your story.
And since this is a totally new kind of story that hasn't been in the international headlines repeatedly over the last 5 years and a general topic of discussion for the last 25 we should ignore anec...
Hey wait. It IS those things. Gosh maybe we should listen then?
This urge to tell people anecdotes are not data is very very stale, when it comes to this topic. We have data and it's consistent with this anecdote. A woman being harassed in the workplace appears to be plausible and backed by data.
So why does anyone feel like immediately posting a not-all-tech-orgs helps anyone buy the tech org you're representing?
The story wasn't "I almost quit my job" - the story was "I almost quit tech." If you want to keep generalizing - we can keep going to "I almost quit modern cities and went off to live as a hermit."
I think it's important to share her story. However, it's more powerful when people don't overreach, and talk about their specific situation and how it had specific instances & issues because it allows people to understand, empathize & change things that are within their circle of influence.
Saying "tech" has a problem is easy to say, but it doesn't actually provide any actionable insight on what to do about it.
So... You want to mollify her point by saying, "Not all tech?"
I'm just confused, because this seems like such an obvious statement. Of course not every workplace is this bad. Why does that have to be said here?
The author seems to convey a frustration with what she feels is an industy-level problem. Given the events of the last 5 years and the general statistics for women in tech, maybe that's not unreasonable.
Both your point and hers can coexist in the same narrative. It's just that your point seems a bit like you're mad the article wasn't copy-edited to avoid pedantic objections about implicit quantification.
> I had studied women in tech for two years as part of my master’s in Sociology degree
I don't think the author is extrapolating her personal experience to the industry. Her experience is a personal example of a trend she had previously studied.
No, it's sort of the opposite. "Not all men" in this case would be "not all companies have cultures like this". The response to "not all men" is "but (practically) all women have experienced harassment". So in this case one might say "even if not all companies do this, all employees have experienced it". And mod's comment is that at least one employee has not.
In some cases “not all men” is used to shut down the woman who is speaking. It’s like saying since not all men are like the man described in your experience, your experience doesn’t matter. In that case, “not all men” is a phrase I wouldn’t use.
However, when the individual extrapolates his/her experience to the men in the industry as a whole, comprising of millions of different people, I think “not all men” or “not everyone in this industry” is a perfectly valid response.
It's great that you've never had similar negative experiences but stories like these are common and, while not exclusive to this industry, very prevalent.
You might think the entire industry would be disgusted but stories like these keep coming out, from high profile tech companies to small firms so it seems pretty clear this is a problem.
I think the issue comes up consistently when people say things like "what's wrong with people in this industry". The statement would seem to apply to literally everyone in the industry is bad, which is trivially untrue. Especially when you are doing all you can it's weird to just be lumped in with other people and being able to do nothing about it. I'm not saying that how she says things is bad but it often will make people defensive regardless of whether they agree that it's a problem or not
The tech industry shouldn't aim for perfection. It should aim for the average level of negative experiences across all industries, meaning it should have as many of these cases as other industries. It is not really a travesty or an indication of a problem in the tech industry if a few of these cases pop up from time to time.
What is clear is that these cases are publicized to a disproportionate degree when they occur in the tech industry compared to other industries.
I'm not sure it's just publicity though. It seems like having such a high male ratio can create these kinds of environment. You're right that perfection is probably impossible but I think 0 tolerance is still a good target.
Like you say, it's not exclusive to this industry and I think it's a problem that, the way we're often presenting it, we make it sound like these problems are only in STEM. We don't consider whether anything is a US-centric issue, or a SV-centric issue, France-centric issue, or whether it's simply humans being shitty.
Focusing on "fixing sexism in the industry" is hopeless if the problem isn't specific to the industry, I think.
What makes "the industry we're in" easier to impact than "the country we're in"?
And I would say that while sexism isn't specific to any single place, culture is highly impactful on the amount of racism/sexism/homophobia you may experience and this is what changes the most when you go from country to country. A startup in San Francisco will have a very different culture to a mid-size company in Madrid.
The industry is smaller and less resistant to change then the entire country. I also have the ability to affect where I work and my coworkers. I have almost no ability to affect the country besides voting and maybe arguably activism.
I get the sense that industry-level change is not as obviously a low-hanging fruit versus government-level change. There's a mechanism operating over the government, but what's the mechanism operating over an industry? A secret cabal of investors?
Because fixing the entire country is a much large problem.
Most of the time, when people talk about "lets fix the broader problem not our specific problem", it is mostly an excuse to do nothing, as opposed to an actual attempt to solve the bigger problem.
People in tech have both the ability and responsibility to fix issues that directly effect the tech industry.
Whereas we don't necessarily have the ability to change worldwide culture as a whole.
It's been demonstrated time and time again that this is an issue that is rampant across the entire tech industry. Just because you personally haven't experienced this doesn't mean that's not true.
When I was working in the film industry I once asked a french female colleague, why does she still prefers Germans over French male. French macho sexism was rampant in certain circles, and I never experienced that in Austria or Germany. (Not listing other cultures which are much worse than the French, of course.)
She said: "Yes, even if they are sexist and extremely macho, I still prefer the French over the Germans, because the French adore women. Germans just don't care."
I didn't know what I should answer then, because there are still certain aspects which I would never accept. Like this one in this story.
I shared this story with my company (90% women). Not a single person here has ever experienced anything as overtly sexist as this. They all agree though that they would've quit on the spot and found another job.
This issue certainly isn't found in every tech company and I'd argue that it isn't even most.
There's also selection bias (is that what this is called?) in that folks write blog posts about these kinds of negative experiences but very few write blog posts saying "my team is great, everyone is respectful and we all get along swimmingly."
Maybe not many consider sharing the video with the word "fuck" in it sexist?
We use WTF quite a lot, I'd never ever even dream to think about it as something sexist.
Edit: my bad, I missed the part in which context that repsonse was posted. It changes the perspective a lot.
I think there's a difference between saying WTF (in Slack, or wherever) and replying "We don't give a fuck" in response to an article about sexism in the work place.
At my company WTF is acceptable language but saying you don't care about a coworker's valid concern is not.
I have done contracts at ad agencies, banks and insurances and from my experience these are much, much worse. Tech companies are super friendly places in comparison.
This is 100% right. I've only worked in a bar and a restaurant for a combined total of a year and I've heard so many women repeat very similar comments as to what offended her on a daily basis. Bad jokes about tits, pussys, and small dicks. Some people are aggressive, plain and simple.
I've also worked with several women in tech who very strongly resisted the feminist movement and felt they needed to carve their own path. They are some of the most badass software developers I've ever worked with and without them their teams would falter into a horrible mess of terrible code and documentation. If anything I'm understating how important they are to the companies they work for.
It's my personal belief that the changes with women's rights in our country over the several decades has been one of the best things to ever happen. For the majority of my life growing up it has been just me and my mom, and even in the past two decades I've seen a lot of really good change. I can't imagine the amount of change in the past four decades.
The issue is that much like the BLM movement SOME people, not all, are turning it into an us versus them situation. This mentality is never productive and indefensible. Read the final statement "We won’t let them grind us down."
Right now my Facebook is jam packed full of friends posting about how everyone needs to revolt against white men because of the transsexual military ban that Trump just enacted. I'd love to have a discussion with them about how Trump's actions don't represent white males everywhere, but they will turn hostile and rip me to shreds the moment I say anything which opposes that statement. They've done it before and I don't want to argue with my friends like that.
All of this said, the manager is horribly sexist with comments like below. Even if that is true, there is a strong context in the situation. Why even bring it up, what point is he trying to make?
"Later that night, he also said that women had a smaller brain. That’s when I couldn’t take it anymore and left."
That's really fucked up, go finish the contract and find a better team to work with. Life is too short for shit like that. And please don't turn this into us versus them. Find better people to work with.
EDIT: In the comment section responding to someone suggesting a company for her to work at, she wrote:
"Thank you for the tip ! I have to keep fighting but it’s not easy, I know that 42 school is very sexist as well and there are only 7% of women there so I’m not so delighted to go there. But that school is very famous in France and I want to acquire those low level C language skills."
Then don't go! Go work at some place where people treat you with respect.
I'm a female student currently enrolled at Holberton School where the culture is not sexist AND the student body is 40% women AND we're learning both low and high level languages (C, Python).
Most stories like the OP's can be summed as follows:
1. Some insensitive asshole was lacking respect or maturity or professionalism in general.
2. Women, who are generally more conscientious than men, naturally react more strongly to said assholes.
I think if you could magically make every employee not act like an asshole, reports of sexism would drop by 99%.
This is a comforting fiction, but all you're doing is renaming the special and unfair treatment men give women to "assholes being assholes."
And sure. Yes. That's not untrue. But read the article. She's particularly singled out for special treatment.
Redefining the words or claiming it's actually women being "more sensitive" is just a word game to try making excuses. To do anything but agree, "This is sexist behavior."
> She's particularly singled out for special treatment.
Where did you read this? In the entire article she didn't even describe anyone speaking to her or about her except when they apologized, how can this be seen as singling her out?
Normally I'm not against blasting companies based on a single data point/experience, but if this is really how those colleagues acted I would be shouting this companies name from the rooftops.
It sucks that this is able to happen. It's even worse that its common enough to be thought of as an industry standard.
I don't really have anything to add (for op) other than leave that company immediately, shame them, and move on.
It sounds like your coworkers are man-children. That's not even just sexism, it's more a general level of extreme immaturity. I wouldn't work with idiots like that.
Thank you for sharing. This is a wonderful story/example of what a microagression is and how hurtful it can be even though it was not a targeted attack.
I believe these stories, as they're shared and read, are making a difference which will end up being a better industry for all sexes. I believe that because stories like this have educated me and my intuition is that it's educated and influenced others too. Which means more change is coming.
You almost left tech because a bunch in tech are socially awkward weirdos who don't give a crap about other people. Period. It's not about being a woman... it's that the tech field is full of anti-social shit.
I don't think you can describe some of the actions as simply by those that are "socially awkward". Her director asked her to move to make room for his big dick. That's inappropriate whether you are introverted or extroverted.
Yo I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you've never had a woman and a manager walk up and say "Move over I need room for my big tits."
I'm sure those experiences can exist in this world, but data we have paints a picture that these "socially awkward weirdos" aren't so weird and special and snowflake. They're garden variety sexists of the most boring and hurtful sort.
I have also seen that sort of behaviour at the high level as a female president and her most immediate female cronies, Given the owner, she would not have climbed up in the company without acting like that.
Whether they were emulating the corresponding male behaviours to get ahead or are just awful human beings is inconsequential, but my vote was for, "Why not both?"
You have to challenge these people for your own mental well being. If it doesn't work out for your career prospects, oh well, at least you remain a content and happy human being.
So, I think there is a worthwhile discussion here that's getting lost in all the emotions. The discussion comes down to this "Should we look at this as a gender debate, or an engineering debate?"
I can see why gp wouldn't want to see it as a gender debate, because it negates the negative experience some men have around other toxic male engineers.
I can also see why you wouldn't want to deny the sexist element's existence, that would just seem counter-factual.
I also want to express a hesitation to reduce this to a gender issue, because I find it so often creates an US-vs-THEM mentality. Because I'm a guy, and I think many managers in engineering are abusive, and I don't think the fact that the abuse isn't throwing out the word "pussy" negates the severity of the situation.
Consider Japan, where stress at work has gotten so bad, the country has made a goal of reducing suicide rates. I think we need to unite around work standards before we get to that point, not as guys vs girls, but as workers vs investors.
> I find your response dismissive and counterproductive.
Then you are perceptive. I have no interest in discussing the complex landscape of Japan's gender roles, historical context, current economic issues, their declining birthrate, and their intersection with the current prime minister.
We need not point to any of that to agree that this behavior reported in the article is indefensible.
Your first instinct upon hearing this is to say, "Yes, well, that seems inappropriate but really I think this isn't about how we treat women but how we treat engineers." Yet you follow through later in the thread with the contextually audacious claim that I'm overly dismissive?
[I recognize at this point the topic has changed from gender to effective discourse on HN.]
> Your first instinct upon hearing this is to say, "Yes, well, that seems inappropriate but really I think this isn't about how we treat women but how we treat engineers." Yet you follow through later in the thread with the contextually audacious claim that I'm overly dismissive?
I definitely did not say that. Perhaps you should reread what I did say: that we have a choice of how to interpret things like this. I'm sensing that you think if one doesn't interpret this as sexist that this is somehow an attack on women, because you seem really defensive.
I'd also challenge you to examine your own motivations, because if you think this short back-and-forth has furthered a cause it has only served to reinforce my caution in trying to intellectually engage on prickly topics [and make snarky "triggered" jokes amongst friends / reddit].
Rather, this is a reflection of an entire culture of woman-hating and female disempowerment that has been prevalent since Aeschylus wrote The Oresteia, of which these coworkers at this one small company are but a typical example.
OP posts an article on French Slack about sexual harassment. Some team member replies with "don't give a fuck" meme.
Team has a performance review in which reviewer makes callous and childish comments about his sexual organs. "Our app is big, like my dick." Are French people really this retarded?
And one of the comments on the page is simply "Grow up." Which seems like part of the problem. But I don't want to judge someone out of context, so I clicked on their Medium username to see if maybe I'd misunderstood. It turns out every single comment that user has made is on seven different stories they can make negative comments about women and their accomplishments.
This nastiness is pervasive, and often carried out by people so blind to their own participation that they deny what they themselves are doing.
One account pulled that same move several times on medium and the conclusion is "this nastiness is pervasive" [in tech] rather than "that poster is an asshole"?
I seriously doubt the person behind that account denies what they are doing.
Provide evidence. If it's so prevalent it shouldn't be hard. We all know about Uber, come up with something original. You are accusing the entire industry as a whole after all from little firms to giants.
Given the number of UFO sighting claims, you would think everyone's chance of encountering a silent flying saucer shaped object in their lifetime is near 100%. My point is, everyone sympathizes with stories of abuse/sexism/racism, but the number of articles written about them doesn't prove they happen frequently or even that they happen in the majority of workplaces.
Just to add to the evidence others are posting, Dave McClure is a fine example and my go-to since people started complaining Uber's scandal wasn't "original enough."
This isn't a helpful comment on a divisive topic. On HN alone, there has been a long list of similar articles, experiences, and threads. That's evidence, and it's not as if it's hard to find.
People can reasonably differ on how to assess it, what the underlying problem is, how best to correct it, and many other aspects. But forcing a relitigation ab initio every time it comes up is unhelpful to begin with, and when you sprinkle in aggressive argumentation, you're over the line in a way that leads nowhere good.
To everyone down voting me: Please don't turn hacker news into reddit. Extraordinary claims require substantial amount of evidence to have any weight.
If sexism was rampant and common through out the entire software development industry, more so than other industries, I think we would see a lot of evidence supporting that. Look at the evidence, and form your conclusions based on that. The reason why I discounted Uber is because Uber is just one company and is no where near representative of the industry as a whole.
Silicon Valley is _also_ not representative of the whole industry.
That's one messed up guy. His post places much emphasis on the fact that this shortcoming is his own and that the rest of the company does not have the same weird ideals and that his co-founder + senior management are sound. One guy is not representative of the whole industry.
This article is grasping on straws. I fail to see what a gaming conference has to do with the software development industry. Also, this presumes that the adult entertainment industry is sexist/misogynistic, which is a conflicted position to say the least.
I think this is the most honest and realistic view of the industry. Yes, I would say there is sexism in that women _are_ treated _differently_, in part simply due to the rarity of female software engineers. That is a far cry from the picture some are trying to paint.
"Micro aggressions", rape, lives being "destroyed", "emoji-induced tears", and violence undermine the point of the article. Tragically comedic hyperbole.
Pro tip: The next time someone offends you, call them on it. Stand up for yourself. We need more people talking and less "retreat and blog".
Step 1: immediately introduce straw men to knock down.
Step 2: blame the victim of sexual harassment for being there and not finding a way to not be harassed.
Step 3: Right after telling them to stand up for themselves, immediately shame them for talking about the experience. It might give them resources to actually follow the advice you patronizingly tossed out in step 2.
This playbook is old. It's unacceptable. It's a way to try and shield men from the consequences illegal, unproessional, and immoral actions. It's an attempt to undermine anyone who notices.
>> Step 1: immediately introduce straw men to knock down.
> "Micro aggressions", rape, lives being "destroyed", "emoji-induced tears", and violence
> Tragically comedic hyperbole.
>> Step 2: blame the victim of sexual harassment for being there and not finding a way to not be harassed.
> The next time someone offends you, call them on it. Stand up for yourself
>> Step 3: Right after telling them to stand up for themselves, immediately shame them for talking about the experience. It might give them resources to actually follow the advice you patronizingly tossed out in step 2.
> We need more people talking and less "retreat and blog"
There are no straw men here. Only classic deflect-and-gaslight tactics older than either of us. But hey, you go on misusing the phrase "straw man", champ. Credit to your gender, etc.
Stop defending sexism. If your behavior is indistinguishable from sexism save for intent, it is sexism. Period.
Step 2: The parent absolutely did not blame the victim for simply being there.
Step 3: You're assuming the victim would necessarily feel shame by trying to help them deal with assholes, and you're also assuming that shame was the intended outcome of telling them to stand up/call out idiots in the midst of their idiocy.
Your first paragraph: the victim was blamed for not acting differently to a circumstance that they should NOT have had to deal with. Characterize this as you will, it doesn't change that fact. No accordance was offered for this. The response was deemed sub-optimal and later shamed.
I cannot parse your second paragraph. Victim helps "them"?
Also: I repeat. If your actions are indistinguishable from sexism they're sexism. Your intent doesn't matter. Your defense here is that you're reading the gp charitably.
By standing up for one's self it's possible to both respect yourself and form respect between two or more people who were once quarreling. By dragging in HR, parents or the state you are cultivating a draconian environment where nobody at the job will respect her and she will never respect them, no matter how much they eschew sexism. They'll hate her and she'll fear them, forever.
Someone strong enough of character would be able to withstand the initial stupidity and confront the perpetrators and convince them to stop. Should she have to do that? No, but maybe her actions could lead them to be more mature and they'd all respect each other, and the next woman would have that much better of an environment to go into.
By immediately coddling them, you are accomplishing the exact opposite of what you think are doing.
I think that's what the OP was trying to say, but I can't read minds so who knows.
Oh so, really your demand that we coddle that bunch of lousy and unprofessional folks in the workplace is in her best interests, because SHE shouldn't be coddled?
This seems arbitrary.
This is not some punishment game on reality TV. It's a workplace. Being professional with employees is the bare minimum. Even teenagers can do it. Why do you want to coddle these men?
Let me see if I understand this argument (with the awareness that you are attempting to restate it and not directly advocate it yourself).
When someone is being subjected to abuse in what is supposed to be a professional setting, the correct strategy for them is to take matters into their own hands and probably begin a disruptive and draining conflict which they are almost certain to lose in the end because the deck is stacked against them. Under absolutely no circumstances should the victim ask for assistance, because that would demonstrate weakness and a lack of self-respect. If only the victim had better strength of character, they could put those assholes in their places and nothing like this would ever happen again.
I really don't think I can make myself see the world that way. I don't think I want to.
Indeed, and in the larger context it's a contradictory set of advice.
If she struggles, it'll be a "poor culture fit." At-will employment means it's very challenging to push back against your boss's toxic culture. But if she doesn't, she isn't "strong enough" for the industry.
Actally madsax, reading your post you make a pretty strong case for never asking for help.
> By dragging in HR, parents or the state you are cultivating a draconian environment where nobody at the job will respect her and she will never respect them, no matter how much they eschew sexism
You say here that if at any point any authority figure (which you curiously include "parents" in the list of) is involved it will disqualify the subject of these treatments any hope of future respect. To name the torment as such is to condemn yourself to it.
I'm starting to think you may be using the phrase "strawman" in the more popular counter-factual sense than have a grasp of how the word is historically used. Because it sure seems here like you're saying, "Never go to an authority or appeal to the rules a group establishes because if you do, you forfeit all respect in perpetuity."
Maybe you didn't mean to say that. Maybe this didn't read like you intended it to. But it's not fair that you call foul on us for reading what you wrote and interpreting it within the scope you defined.
> blame the victim of sexual harassment for being there and not finding a way to not be harassed.
There were examples of sexism in the article but I didn't see anything about sexual harassment, they are very different things and shouldn't be mixed up.
Blatant sexism in the workplace typically creates a differentially-hostile environment based on sex, which is all that is necessary for sexual harassment (at least, in US law; legally speaking, the definition is obviously jurisdiction dependent.)
(Lots of harassment stories are about unwanted advances or actual sexual assault, which also is, in the workplace, harassment but is not necessary for harassment.)
I didn't say that we should ignore sexism, I said that we shouldn't cry "sexual harassment" when we mean sexism because they are different things.
Edit: Ah, now I see, I think we read the story a bit differently. I read the following part as being said to everyone and not just her, if he had singled her out then it would be sexual harassment but to me this looks like it is directed at the entire group:
> When this director arrived, we were all seating around a large table, on 2 benches. The first thing he said was
"Move over, I need room for my big dick"
The author is injecting their own narrative into the words of her colleagues and is already assuming intent as malicious. The whole racism/sexism view-point comes from a misunderstanding and attribution of malice to innocent parties, it's so god damn ironic.
I will not and do not tolerate sexism and racism.
But I will also not blindy accept claims of racism and sexism without intent, context and backstory. Logic and rationality > outrage and ignorance.
> The author is injecting their own narrative into the words of her colleagues and is already assuming intent as malicious.
I'm sorry. In what professional work environment is "move over I need room for my big dick" an appropriate statement? In what environment is it appropriate to actively mock a team member for posting an article, to the point where they cry in the workplace?
The range in which "intent" would have tipped the ever-sensitive scales of our judgement was somewhere well before, "This app is big like my dick."
It's ironic that people strive to defend this sort of garbage as work appropriate, and pass it off as a norm. It was not, and only recently have some places allowed it to be. Places that open themselves up to justifiable lawsuits, reduce productivity, make tech work more expensive for everyone, and increase the sum of human misery in the world.
> I will not and do not tolerate sexism and racism.
Okay good but...
> But I will also not blindy accept claims of racism and sexism without intent, context and backstory.
I'm sorry, but ... what on earth are you talking about? What context would make this okay? What backstory would permit this behavior? To me, this reads as, "I will oppose it unless I feel like making decisions about unobservable phenomena.
> Logic and rationality > outrage and ignorance.
The cold hard logic is that actions indistinguishable from sexism by both third parties and the aggrieved party ARE sexism. Intent is immeasurable. Pleading intent is asking others to take on an act of faith in defiance of the facts.
Do you think there is room for a little more empathy here? It's possible that this group of guys is more socially awkward than is apparent. It doesn't justify this sort of behaviour, but it really is possible they have no idea the impact they're having on this woman.
It seems that any response other than total outrage gets shot down as heresy. I'm just not sure that's the most pragmatic approach to fixing this problem.
Communicating to these guys, the level of hurt they're inflicting may actually bring a better resolution.
While I'd never make comments like that around at work, I'm very conservative, I was not aware that someone would be as deeply hurt as the author was. I work in an environment where jokes like that are common and often come from the only woman in the office. So I simply had no idea that this could "destroy people".
It's not the same as sexism, but there are often jokes and discussions that mock my deeply held religious beliefs. Again totally different, but I've always felt it was up to me to control my reaction. I can easily get hurt or offended, that they're rejecting me and that the work place is hostile to someone that believes as I do. But I work to avoid thinking along those lines as it will do me no good. I can't change the people around me but I can develop a resilience such that those things don't bother me.
> Do you think there is room for a little more empathy here?
That's sort of the question the author posed, now isn't it?
> but it really is possible they have no idea the impact they're having on this woman
Presumably some did, as they apologized. Again, exactly what are you proposing here? At what point does carelessness become neglignece. Are you suggesting this is a large group of people with a very specific and very similar set of neurodiverse characteristics?
What?
> I was not aware that someone would be as deeply hurt as the author was. I work in an environment where jokes like that are common and often come from the only woman in the office. So I simply had no idea that this could "destroy people".
If at some point people could stop talking about their dicks and start doing their jobs that'd be amazing. How do you find time to work in between all the posturing?
> It's not the same as sexism
Except that it's indistinguishable from sexism without a powerful form of mass telepathy...
> I can't change the people around me but I can develop a resilience such that those things don't bother me
It's impressive that you started off with "Do you think there is room for a little more empathy here?" and ended with this. It's a total around-the-world of the gaslight playbook. Be more sensitive and think about the feelings of the men harassing the woman. And hey, she should be tougher anyways.
What you're saying and promoting is needlessly unfair. Stop it.
>That's sort of the question the author posed, now isn't it?
I think you are saying there needs to be empathy for the author? If you are, I totally agree. But I was saying also for everyone that is coming down hard on the guys some empathy there might be more constructive. If they knew the degree of impact their behavior was having they might moderate their behavior.
>If at some point people could stop talking about their dicks and start doing their jobs that'd be amazing. How do you find time to work in between all the posturing?
Yeah sure I'm not a fan of that sort of behavior. I don't think it's posturing at least in my workplace it tends to be self deprecating humor, of a sexual nature. But I think you missed my point. I've seen people bond over this kind of behavior, but never seen someone hurt buy it. The degree of hurt described by the author is beyond what I'd have thought possible. This is because it is so commonplace around me. Not because I think it unreasonable.
>Except that it's indistinguishable from sexism without a powerful form of mass telepathy...
My comment was "It's not the same as sexism, but there are often jokes and discussions that mock my deeply held religious beliefs". I think you must have misunderstood? I was saying mocking my beliefs is different to sexism? You disagree?
>It's impressive that you started off with "Do you think there is room for a little more empathy here?" and ended with this. It's a total around-the-world of the gaslight playbook. Be more sensitive and think about the feelings of the men harassing the woman. And hey, she should be tougher anyways.
I'm not saying she should shut up and be okay with this. I'm saying everyone is in control of their own emotions. You can limit the amount of influence you allow others to have over your emotions. If you do this your life will be better. Only let those who love you and you trust be strong influences of your emotions. Because bad people exist and you will have to interact with them. By all means call them out, get them removed from power. But never ever let them get under your skin. You have the ability to rise above that, to be sovereign over your happiness.
I also find the accusation of gaslighting unfair. This is a form of systematic psychological manipulation. It's a big deal to accuse someone of that.
>What you're saying and promoting is needlessly unfair. Stop it.
I think that you've misunderstood me as I don't think anything I'm promoting is unfair.
> But I think you missed my point. I've seen people bond over this kind of behavior, but never seen someone hurt buy it.
How would you know? Are you confident everyone around you would be comfortable telling you that your behavior hurt them?
> My comment was "It's not the same as sexism, but there are often jokes and discussions that mock my deeply held religious beliefs".
Hey. I wanna draw a line here as well. These conversations are ALSO not work appropriate, in the same sense that it is not appropriate for a Christian to suggest gay people don't deserve equal rights.
Those topics are best left out of the workplace.
> I'm not saying she should shut up and be okay with this. I'm saying everyone is in control of their own emotions.
This is false, according to the science. What's more, keeping a tight reign on one's behavior comes at a mental cost, and that energy could be better spent elsewhere.
> You can limit the amount of influence you allow others to have over your emotions.
Please consider updating your information here. This is victorian era stuff.
> I also find the accusation of gaslighting unfair. This is a form of systematic psychological manipulation
I think you're complicit in gaslighting. You're suggesting we have more empathy for the people causing pain because they just don't know. You deflect talk of gender harassment by re-centering the conversation on religious beliefs. Then you STILL rebutt her feelings by saying SHE specifically should be in more control.
Yes, it's a pretty big deal. But I think maybe yours is the more honest sort of gaslighting, where you're conditioned to accept this behavior. I suspect if you critically examine it more you'll realize that the cons of allowing it far outweigh the pros.
> "Micro aggressions", rape, lives being "destroyed", "emoji-induced tears", and violence undermine the point of the article. Tragically comedic hyperbole.
They aren't hyperbole. Women don't have balls and it's an open question if they ever will. I actually can believe that she really cried, which takes this to a whole new level of crazy. The problem is that feminists see responses like that, figure out that men obviously must be disbelieving them in order to protect patriarchy and they grow even more scared to stand up for themselves and cry wolf even more. So you get the opposite of what you want.
I hope you can find a company where you are treated as an equal. I can honestly say I've never worked for a company like you describe, so it sounds more like an issue with the company and not the entire industry as you seem to suggest.
As a male, I wouldn't stand for this type of behavior from my colleagues. Personally, I'd be going up the corporate ladder or human resources until I found someone that make this type of behavior cease, and if it didn't, I would be gone. I can't even imagine being on the receiving end of something like that.
Bonjour JNeal,
Thank you for your kind response. I don't even think it's a company wide problem, I'm certain the misogynist director is influencing every one in this department. I think my colleagues will be more careful in the future, and I will definitely go to the director's boss but I prefer to do it in 2 weeks, when my contract is done.
Have a great evening!
Obviously this is over the line and totally unprofessional conduct by those mentioned in the story.
Can anyone come up with a story or things that could be taken as sexist towards a male? I have a hard time knowing if I'm right in that I think I'd be fine with this as I don't take this extremely juvenile crap as seriously or if I'm just really having a hard time being empathetic because I just have never, nor can I fathom, anything rocking my sense of worth so hard.
Maybe I need to experience being marginalized due to my sex or race or whatever to be empathetic? I dunno. I'm sure there's more to it that can cause someone to break down like the person who wrote this. I want to understand.
Do I need a bunch of women to joke about guys with small dicks are worthless or something? Is that comparable? Should I be extremely offended and be willing to quit over that, like the world is against me because of it?
I'm honestly wondering here. Please help me understand. I'm serious. I just don't know what it's like.
As your comment wrestles with, you can't know what it's like, because you don't live under a systemic power imbalance.
The fact that words aren't going to hurt you as much because they aren't coming from an environment of actual systemic discrimination doesn't mean that the people who are hurt by words under discrimination are wrong or irrational.
It just means it's a thing you don't get to experience first-hand and should attempt to have empathy for nonetheless.
> I think I'd be fine with this as I don't take this extremely juvenile crap as seriously
Do you think her coworkers were only like this in casual conversations and social situations, and treated her as a complete equal professionally? Or do you think their attitudes might have affected how they viewed her work, what she was assigned, her opportunities for advancement, etc.
It doesn't matter if you "take it seriously" or not when people who have power over you are doing this. It's not about being offended, it's about being unequal.
This experience makes me sick. There are very different places, where people are generally polite and professional and even fun. And where a sexist comment would not go unnoticed. Hope your next job will be like that.
I once attended a hackathon around some humanitarian cause. Participants in general were nice. However, I joined a team, which had two kind of strong male characters in them. None of them would be able to discuss and think freely. One guy has worked in various startups. Without him telling me more about this, I could just infer how blame-driven his developer jobs were by seeing him interacting with the others. Really scary. The other imagined himself as an activist. So active, that in the end, we did not produce anything at that hackathon and I believe without these two males it would have been much simpler to actually get a discussion going and to have fun.
In general, the more educated and diverse people are, the more they are able to think and think independently. The more people are responsible for themselves the more they are responsible for creating a work atmosphere, that is healthy for all participants - because hate and exclusion lessen motivation and there is one thing that need to go out to all businesses and managers and hierarchical elements: You cannot motivate people - you can only demotivate them. And this can happen much faster than one might believe.
Two "males"... I hate it so much when people who are against stereotyping women so readily stereotype men. Those were two people who happened to be men. Your comment is everything that is wrong with today's "feminist" movement.
Wow. No one even attacked you directly, they merely made lewd comments in your presence. I can see how there is a huge disconnect if this is all it takes for someone to want to run back to a life of shelter.
I think posting the "We don't give a f--k" video is a pretty direct attack.
And even if that specific incident hadn't happened: a climate of gendered or sexually explicit comments is hostile. I'm sorry if you work somewhere that this isn't obvious or explicit. At my company, we're working to maintain a good culture, and none of the behavior described in the article -- none -- would be acceptable.
Thankfully we haven't had to deal with that yet. But I'm formulating some new interview questions reading this HN thread....
The girl is right but sociopaths and weirdos will often outnumber her, not only in the coding field. I am afraid her reaction shows she has a long way to go before developing the thick skin she needs to survive and assert herself.
Alternatively we could use the beloved principle of meritocracy to point out that none of those people are the kind of geniuses that would offset the cost of a sexual harassment lawsuit and they should all be disciplined and possibly fired for their unprofessional conduct.
But sure. Tell her to 'grow up.' Tell her that because there are bad people in the world, it's her responsibility and role to accept and cater to them.
Everyone begging for this company to be doxxed is no doubt just hoping to evaluate it and begin a "no true scotsman" argument that excludes this behavior from our industry from a whole, and, most importantly, excludes their own team/company from being part of the problem.
I want to ask this question as gently as possible: Is it acceptable or common in French culture/companies to use a phrase such as "Move over I need a place for my big dick"? It sounds so aggressive and hare-brained that I can't really imagine anyone in the US saying that without begging for a sexual harassment case targeted towards them.
To be 100% clear: I'm not justifying this behavior at all. My point is that when having a beer with friends, its common to joke around like that. I'm just wondering if in French culture, when going out for drinks, if its common or socially acceptable to make these jokes. From the lady's viewpoint, it seems like its not.
At a bar, drinking beer? I dunno, sounds like they were joking around. If I can't talk about body parts at a bar while drinking beer, I'm not sure where you can.
Why would I want to talk about these parts in the bar? Or why would I want to hear about them from someone else?
I can't talk about these parts at the bar. And I'll feel very uncomfortable and will have to ask that person in the group to stop if they were to do that.
I hold a belief that one needs to maintain professional (or at least semi-professional) conduct in the bar too. Otherwise, it is just too immature.
226 comments
[ 6.2 ms ] story [ 246 ms ] threadI would echo this sentiment if it were "What the FUCK is wrong with my colleagues?"
I have never had a sour personal experience involving any coworkers in tech. Not sexism, racism, anything-ism. Never once, I'm over 5 years in (developer as well).
I've had terrible experiences before I moved to tech.
I know it's just an anecdote--like yours--and I feel fortunate and lucky.
Anyway, I can't echo your sentiment that it's an entire industry. Nearly the entire tech industry would be appalled and disgusted by the behavior of the people in your story.
Isn't that the same as saying "not all men" etc?
Hey wait. It IS those things. Gosh maybe we should listen then?
This urge to tell people anecdotes are not data is very very stale, when it comes to this topic. We have data and it's consistent with this anecdote. A woman being harassed in the workplace appears to be plausible and backed by data.
So why does anyone feel like immediately posting a not-all-tech-orgs helps anyone buy the tech org you're representing?
The story wasn't "I almost quit my job" - the story was "I almost quit tech." If you want to keep generalizing - we can keep going to "I almost quit modern cities and went off to live as a hermit."
I think it's important to share her story. However, it's more powerful when people don't overreach, and talk about their specific situation and how it had specific instances & issues because it allows people to understand, empathize & change things that are within their circle of influence.
Saying "tech" has a problem is easy to say, but it doesn't actually provide any actionable insight on what to do about it.
I'm just confused, because this seems like such an obvious statement. Of course not every workplace is this bad. Why does that have to be said here?
The author seems to convey a frustration with what she feels is an industy-level problem. Given the events of the last 5 years and the general statistics for women in tech, maybe that's not unreasonable.
Both your point and hers can coexist in the same narrative. It's just that your point seems a bit like you're mad the article wasn't copy-edited to avoid pedantic objections about implicit quantification.
I'm all about holding people accountable - but in order to do that you have to be specific about who is causing the issue & what they're doing.
Have a good day.
I don't think the author is extrapolating her personal experience to the industry. Her experience is a personal example of a trend she had previously studied.
However, when the individual extrapolates his/her experience to the men in the industry as a whole, comprising of millions of different people, I think “not all men” or “not everyone in this industry” is a perfectly valid response.
You might think the entire industry would be disgusted but stories like these keep coming out, from high profile tech companies to small firms so it seems pretty clear this is a problem.
What is clear is that these cases are publicized to a disproportionate degree when they occur in the tech industry compared to other industries.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Focusing on "fixing sexism in the industry" is hopeless if the problem isn't specific to the industry, I think.
And I would say that while sexism isn't specific to any single place, culture is highly impactful on the amount of racism/sexism/homophobia you may experience and this is what changes the most when you go from country to country. A startup in San Francisco will have a very different culture to a mid-size company in Madrid.
Most of the time, when people talk about "lets fix the broader problem not our specific problem", it is mostly an excuse to do nothing, as opposed to an actual attempt to solve the bigger problem.
People in tech have both the ability and responsibility to fix issues that directly effect the tech industry.
Whereas we don't necessarily have the ability to change worldwide culture as a whole.
So again how exactly is it easier to fix something "in the industry" vs. in the country?
We can make direct contributions by working to solve the problem within our own companies and move the needle that way.
It is also because this whole "it is better to solve a different problem" is basically just an excuse to do nothing, by throwing our hands in the air.
She said: "Yes, even if they are sexist and extremely macho, I still prefer the French over the Germans, because the French adore women. Germans just don't care." I didn't know what I should answer then, because there are still certain aspects which I would never accept. Like this one in this story.
I think the author has more than her personal anecdote to back up her statement.
This issue certainly isn't found in every tech company and I'd argue that it isn't even most.
There's also selection bias (is that what this is called?) in that folks write blog posts about these kinds of negative experiences but very few write blog posts saying "my team is great, everyone is respectful and we all get along swimmingly."
Edit: my bad, I missed the part in which context that repsonse was posted. It changes the perspective a lot.
At my company WTF is acceptable language but saying you don't care about a coworker's valid concern is not.
Totally not trying to justify anything, I just have zero understanding of the cultural context.
I've also worked with several women in tech who very strongly resisted the feminist movement and felt they needed to carve their own path. They are some of the most badass software developers I've ever worked with and without them their teams would falter into a horrible mess of terrible code and documentation. If anything I'm understating how important they are to the companies they work for.
It's my personal belief that the changes with women's rights in our country over the several decades has been one of the best things to ever happen. For the majority of my life growing up it has been just me and my mom, and even in the past two decades I've seen a lot of really good change. I can't imagine the amount of change in the past four decades.
The issue is that much like the BLM movement SOME people, not all, are turning it into an us versus them situation. This mentality is never productive and indefensible. Read the final statement "We won’t let them grind us down."
Right now my Facebook is jam packed full of friends posting about how everyone needs to revolt against white men because of the transsexual military ban that Trump just enacted. I'd love to have a discussion with them about how Trump's actions don't represent white males everywhere, but they will turn hostile and rip me to shreds the moment I say anything which opposes that statement. They've done it before and I don't want to argue with my friends like that.
All of this said, the manager is horribly sexist with comments like below. Even if that is true, there is a strong context in the situation. Why even bring it up, what point is he trying to make? "Later that night, he also said that women had a smaller brain. That’s when I couldn’t take it anymore and left."
That's really fucked up, go finish the contract and find a better team to work with. Life is too short for shit like that. And please don't turn this into us versus them. Find better people to work with.
EDIT: In the comment section responding to someone suggesting a company for her to work at, she wrote: "Thank you for the tip ! I have to keep fighting but it’s not easy, I know that 42 school is very sexist as well and there are only 7% of women there so I’m not so delighted to go there. But that school is very famous in France and I want to acquire those low level C language skills."
Then don't go! Go work at some place where people treat you with respect.
1. Some insensitive asshole was lacking respect or maturity or professionalism in general. 2. Women, who are generally more conscientious than men, naturally react more strongly to said assholes.
I think if you could magically make every employee not act like an asshole, reports of sexism would drop by 99%.
And sure. Yes. That's not untrue. But read the article. She's particularly singled out for special treatment.
Redefining the words or claiming it's actually women being "more sensitive" is just a word game to try making excuses. To do anything but agree, "This is sexist behavior."
Where did you read this? In the entire article she didn't even describe anyone speaking to her or about her except when they apologized, how can this be seen as singling her out?
It sucks that this is able to happen. It's even worse that its common enough to be thought of as an industry standard.
I don't really have anything to add (for op) other than leave that company immediately, shame them, and move on.
Does this company have a HR department? If so, what was their response?
I believe these stories, as they're shared and read, are making a difference which will end up being a better industry for all sexes. I believe that because stories like this have educated me and my intuition is that it's educated and influenced others too. Which means more change is coming.
Maybe it's time to publicly shame those workplaces.
All the best to you.
Instructions unclear. left a trash can in fire at the office.
-Posted from jail
I'm sure those experiences can exist in this world, but data we have paints a picture that these "socially awkward weirdos" aren't so weird and special and snowflake. They're garden variety sexists of the most boring and hurtful sort.
Whether they were emulating the corresponding male behaviours to get ahead or are just awful human beings is inconsequential, but my vote was for, "Why not both?"
You have to challenge these people for your own mental well being. If it doesn't work out for your career prospects, oh well, at least you remain a content and happy human being.
I can see why gp wouldn't want to see it as a gender debate, because it negates the negative experience some men have around other toxic male engineers.
I can also see why you wouldn't want to deny the sexist element's existence, that would just seem counter-factual.
I also want to express a hesitation to reduce this to a gender issue, because I find it so often creates an US-vs-THEM mentality. Because I'm a guy, and I think many managers in engineering are abusive, and I don't think the fact that the abuse isn't throwing out the word "pussy" negates the severity of the situation.
Consider Japan, where stress at work has gotten so bad, the country has made a goal of reducing suicide rates. I think we need to unite around work standards before we get to that point, not as guys vs girls, but as workers vs investors.
Maybe if workplaces were not deliberately enforcing a men-at-the-expense-of-women social norm, this notion wouldn't exist.
> Consider Japan
No, I'd rather not. A reductive analysis of Japan's workplace dynamics isn't helpful here.
I don't understand on what basis you can discount the realities of alternative cultures.
Then you are perceptive. I have no interest in discussing the complex landscape of Japan's gender roles, historical context, current economic issues, their declining birthrate, and their intersection with the current prime minister.
We need not point to any of that to agree that this behavior reported in the article is indefensible.
Your first instinct upon hearing this is to say, "Yes, well, that seems inappropriate but really I think this isn't about how we treat women but how we treat engineers." Yet you follow through later in the thread with the contextually audacious claim that I'm overly dismissive?
Productivity here will be limited.
> Your first instinct upon hearing this is to say, "Yes, well, that seems inappropriate but really I think this isn't about how we treat women but how we treat engineers." Yet you follow through later in the thread with the contextually audacious claim that I'm overly dismissive?
I definitely did not say that. Perhaps you should reread what I did say: that we have a choice of how to interpret things like this. I'm sensing that you think if one doesn't interpret this as sexist that this is somehow an attack on women, because you seem really defensive.
I'd also challenge you to examine your own motivations, because if you think this short back-and-forth has furthered a cause it has only served to reinforce my caution in trying to intellectually engage on prickly topics [and make snarky "triggered" jokes amongst friends / reddit].
OP posts an article on French Slack about sexual harassment. Some team member replies with "don't give a fuck" meme.
Team has a performance review in which reviewer makes callous and childish comments about his sexual organs. "Our app is big, like my dick." Are French people really this retarded?
OP hasn't quit this toxic workplace yet.
This nastiness is pervasive, and often carried out by people so blind to their own participation that they deny what they themselves are doing.
I seriously doubt the person behind that account denies what they are doing.
Grab as much evidence of the unacceptable behavior and put it online for all to see.
[1] https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/18/11262888
[2] https://qz.com/659196
[0]https://500hats.com/im-a-creep-i-m-sorry-d2c13e996ea0 [1]https://cherylyeoh.com/2017/07/03/shedding-light-on-the-blac...
Because you know about them? That's arbitrary.
People can reasonably differ on how to assess it, what the underlying problem is, how best to correct it, and many other aspects. But forcing a relitigation ab initio every time it comes up is unhelpful to begin with, and when you sprinkle in aggressive argumentation, you're over the line in a way that leads nowhere good.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14868537 and marked it off-topic.
If sexism was rampant and common through out the entire software development industry, more so than other industries, I think we would see a lot of evidence supporting that. Look at the evidence, and form your conclusions based on that. The reason why I discounted Uber is because Uber is just one company and is no where near representative of the industry as a whole.
Silicon Valley is _also_ not representative of the whole industry.
The evidence that people did provide:
https://500hats.com/im-a-creep-i-m-sorry-d2c13e996ea0 https://cherylyeoh.com/2017/07/03/shedding-light-on-the-blac...
That's one messed up guy. His post places much emphasis on the fact that this shortcoming is his own and that the rest of the company does not have the same weird ideals and that his co-founder + senior management are sound. One guy is not representative of the whole industry.
https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/18/11262888/microsoft-gdc-20...
This article is grasping on straws. I fail to see what a gaming conference has to do with the software development industry. Also, this presumes that the adult entertainment industry is sexist/misogynistic, which is a conflicted position to say the least.
https://qz.com/659196/i-had-so-many-advantages-and-i-barely-...
I think this is the most honest and realistic view of the industry. Yes, I would say there is sexism in that women _are_ treated _differently_, in part simply due to the rarity of female software engineers. That is a far cry from the picture some are trying to paint.
Pro tip: The next time someone offends you, call them on it. Stand up for yourself. We need more people talking and less "retreat and blog".
Step 2: blame the victim of sexual harassment for being there and not finding a way to not be harassed.
Step 3: Right after telling them to stand up for themselves, immediately shame them for talking about the experience. It might give them resources to actually follow the advice you patronizingly tossed out in step 2.
This playbook is old. It's unacceptable. It's a way to try and shield men from the consequences illegal, unproessional, and immoral actions. It's an attempt to undermine anyone who notices.
You're doing something awful. Stop it.
> "Micro aggressions", rape, lives being "destroyed", "emoji-induced tears", and violence
> Tragically comedic hyperbole.
>> Step 2: blame the victim of sexual harassment for being there and not finding a way to not be harassed.
> The next time someone offends you, call them on it. Stand up for yourself
>> Step 3: Right after telling them to stand up for themselves, immediately shame them for talking about the experience. It might give them resources to actually follow the advice you patronizingly tossed out in step 2.
> We need more people talking and less "retreat and blog"
There are no straw men here. Only classic deflect-and-gaslight tactics older than either of us. But hey, you go on misusing the phrase "straw man", champ. Credit to your gender, etc.
Stop defending sexism. If your behavior is indistinguishable from sexism save for intent, it is sexism. Period.
Step 3: You're assuming the victim would necessarily feel shame by trying to help them deal with assholes, and you're also assuming that shame was the intended outcome of telling them to stand up/call out idiots in the midst of their idiocy.
I cannot parse your second paragraph. Victim helps "them"?
Also: I repeat. If your actions are indistinguishable from sexism they're sexism. Your intent doesn't matter. Your defense here is that you're reading the gp charitably.
Someone strong enough of character would be able to withstand the initial stupidity and confront the perpetrators and convince them to stop. Should she have to do that? No, but maybe her actions could lead them to be more mature and they'd all respect each other, and the next woman would have that much better of an environment to go into.
By immediately coddling them, you are accomplishing the exact opposite of what you think are doing.
I think that's what the OP was trying to say, but I can't read minds so who knows.
This seems arbitrary.
This is not some punishment game on reality TV. It's a workplace. Being professional with employees is the bare minimum. Even teenagers can do it. Why do you want to coddle these men?
When someone is being subjected to abuse in what is supposed to be a professional setting, the correct strategy for them is to take matters into their own hands and probably begin a disruptive and draining conflict which they are almost certain to lose in the end because the deck is stacked against them. Under absolutely no circumstances should the victim ask for assistance, because that would demonstrate weakness and a lack of self-respect. If only the victim had better strength of character, they could put those assholes in their places and nothing like this would ever happen again.
I really don't think I can make myself see the world that way. I don't think I want to.
If she struggles, it'll be a "poor culture fit." At-will employment means it's very challenging to push back against your boss's toxic culture. But if she doesn't, she isn't "strong enough" for the industry.
The summary is: Get fired, get out, or shut up.
> By dragging in HR, parents or the state you are cultivating a draconian environment where nobody at the job will respect her and she will never respect them, no matter how much they eschew sexism
You say here that if at any point any authority figure (which you curiously include "parents" in the list of) is involved it will disqualify the subject of these treatments any hope of future respect. To name the torment as such is to condemn yourself to it.
I'm starting to think you may be using the phrase "strawman" in the more popular counter-factual sense than have a grasp of how the word is historically used. Because it sure seems here like you're saying, "Never go to an authority or appeal to the rules a group establishes because if you do, you forfeit all respect in perpetuity."
Maybe you didn't mean to say that. Maybe this didn't read like you intended it to. But it's not fair that you call foul on us for reading what you wrote and interpreting it within the scope you defined.
Signal boosting this.
There were examples of sexism in the article but I didn't see anything about sexual harassment, they are very different things and shouldn't be mixed up.
(Lots of harassment stories are about unwanted advances or actual sexual assault, which also is, in the workplace, harassment but is not necessary for harassment.)
Edit: Ah, now I see, I think we read the story a bit differently. I read the following part as being said to everyone and not just her, if he had singled her out then it would be sexual harassment but to me this looks like it is directed at the entire group:
> When this director arrived, we were all seating around a large table, on 2 benches. The first thing he said was "Move over, I need room for my big dick"
The author is injecting their own narrative into the words of her colleagues and is already assuming intent as malicious. The whole racism/sexism view-point comes from a misunderstanding and attribution of malice to innocent parties, it's so god damn ironic.
I will not and do not tolerate sexism and racism. But I will also not blindy accept claims of racism and sexism without intent, context and backstory. Logic and rationality > outrage and ignorance.
I'm sorry. In what professional work environment is "move over I need room for my big dick" an appropriate statement? In what environment is it appropriate to actively mock a team member for posting an article, to the point where they cry in the workplace?
The range in which "intent" would have tipped the ever-sensitive scales of our judgement was somewhere well before, "This app is big like my dick."
It's ironic that people strive to defend this sort of garbage as work appropriate, and pass it off as a norm. It was not, and only recently have some places allowed it to be. Places that open themselves up to justifiable lawsuits, reduce productivity, make tech work more expensive for everyone, and increase the sum of human misery in the world.
> I will not and do not tolerate sexism and racism.
Okay good but...
> But I will also not blindy accept claims of racism and sexism without intent, context and backstory.
I'm sorry, but ... what on earth are you talking about? What context would make this okay? What backstory would permit this behavior? To me, this reads as, "I will oppose it unless I feel like making decisions about unobservable phenomena.
> Logic and rationality > outrage and ignorance.
The cold hard logic is that actions indistinguishable from sexism by both third parties and the aggrieved party ARE sexism. Intent is immeasurable. Pleading intent is asking others to take on an act of faith in defiance of the facts.
It seems that any response other than total outrage gets shot down as heresy. I'm just not sure that's the most pragmatic approach to fixing this problem.
Communicating to these guys, the level of hurt they're inflicting may actually bring a better resolution.
While I'd never make comments like that around at work, I'm very conservative, I was not aware that someone would be as deeply hurt as the author was. I work in an environment where jokes like that are common and often come from the only woman in the office. So I simply had no idea that this could "destroy people".
It's not the same as sexism, but there are often jokes and discussions that mock my deeply held religious beliefs. Again totally different, but I've always felt it was up to me to control my reaction. I can easily get hurt or offended, that they're rejecting me and that the work place is hostile to someone that believes as I do. But I work to avoid thinking along those lines as it will do me no good. I can't change the people around me but I can develop a resilience such that those things don't bother me.
That's sort of the question the author posed, now isn't it?
> but it really is possible they have no idea the impact they're having on this woman
Presumably some did, as they apologized. Again, exactly what are you proposing here? At what point does carelessness become neglignece. Are you suggesting this is a large group of people with a very specific and very similar set of neurodiverse characteristics?
What?
> I was not aware that someone would be as deeply hurt as the author was. I work in an environment where jokes like that are common and often come from the only woman in the office. So I simply had no idea that this could "destroy people".
If at some point people could stop talking about their dicks and start doing their jobs that'd be amazing. How do you find time to work in between all the posturing?
> It's not the same as sexism
Except that it's indistinguishable from sexism without a powerful form of mass telepathy...
> I can't change the people around me but I can develop a resilience such that those things don't bother me
It's impressive that you started off with "Do you think there is room for a little more empathy here?" and ended with this. It's a total around-the-world of the gaslight playbook. Be more sensitive and think about the feelings of the men harassing the woman. And hey, she should be tougher anyways.
What you're saying and promoting is needlessly unfair. Stop it.
I think you are saying there needs to be empathy for the author? If you are, I totally agree. But I was saying also for everyone that is coming down hard on the guys some empathy there might be more constructive. If they knew the degree of impact their behavior was having they might moderate their behavior.
>If at some point people could stop talking about their dicks and start doing their jobs that'd be amazing. How do you find time to work in between all the posturing?
Yeah sure I'm not a fan of that sort of behavior. I don't think it's posturing at least in my workplace it tends to be self deprecating humor, of a sexual nature. But I think you missed my point. I've seen people bond over this kind of behavior, but never seen someone hurt buy it. The degree of hurt described by the author is beyond what I'd have thought possible. This is because it is so commonplace around me. Not because I think it unreasonable.
>Except that it's indistinguishable from sexism without a powerful form of mass telepathy...
My comment was "It's not the same as sexism, but there are often jokes and discussions that mock my deeply held religious beliefs". I think you must have misunderstood? I was saying mocking my beliefs is different to sexism? You disagree?
>It's impressive that you started off with "Do you think there is room for a little more empathy here?" and ended with this. It's a total around-the-world of the gaslight playbook. Be more sensitive and think about the feelings of the men harassing the woman. And hey, she should be tougher anyways.
I'm not saying she should shut up and be okay with this. I'm saying everyone is in control of their own emotions. You can limit the amount of influence you allow others to have over your emotions. If you do this your life will be better. Only let those who love you and you trust be strong influences of your emotions. Because bad people exist and you will have to interact with them. By all means call them out, get them removed from power. But never ever let them get under your skin. You have the ability to rise above that, to be sovereign over your happiness.
I also find the accusation of gaslighting unfair. This is a form of systematic psychological manipulation. It's a big deal to accuse someone of that.
>What you're saying and promoting is needlessly unfair. Stop it.
I think that you've misunderstood me as I don't think anything I'm promoting is unfair.
How would you know? Are you confident everyone around you would be comfortable telling you that your behavior hurt them?
> My comment was "It's not the same as sexism, but there are often jokes and discussions that mock my deeply held religious beliefs".
Hey. I wanna draw a line here as well. These conversations are ALSO not work appropriate, in the same sense that it is not appropriate for a Christian to suggest gay people don't deserve equal rights.
Those topics are best left out of the workplace.
> I'm not saying she should shut up and be okay with this. I'm saying everyone is in control of their own emotions.
This is false, according to the science. What's more, keeping a tight reign on one's behavior comes at a mental cost, and that energy could be better spent elsewhere.
> You can limit the amount of influence you allow others to have over your emotions.
Please consider updating your information here. This is victorian era stuff.
> I also find the accusation of gaslighting unfair. This is a form of systematic psychological manipulation
I think you're complicit in gaslighting. You're suggesting we have more empathy for the people causing pain because they just don't know. You deflect talk of gender harassment by re-centering the conversation on religious beliefs. Then you STILL rebutt her feelings by saying SHE specifically should be in more control.
Yes, it's a pretty big deal. But I think maybe yours is the more honest sort of gaslighting, where you're conditioned to accept this behavior. I suspect if you critically examine it more you'll realize that the cons of allowing it far outweigh the pros.
They aren't hyperbole. Women don't have balls and it's an open question if they ever will. I actually can believe that she really cried, which takes this to a whole new level of crazy. The problem is that feminists see responses like that, figure out that men obviously must be disbelieving them in order to protect patriarchy and they grow even more scared to stand up for themselves and cry wolf even more. So you get the opposite of what you want.
As a male, I wouldn't stand for this type of behavior from my colleagues. Personally, I'd be going up the corporate ladder or human resources until I found someone that make this type of behavior cease, and if it didn't, I would be gone. I can't even imagine being on the receiving end of something like that.
Can anyone come up with a story or things that could be taken as sexist towards a male? I have a hard time knowing if I'm right in that I think I'd be fine with this as I don't take this extremely juvenile crap as seriously or if I'm just really having a hard time being empathetic because I just have never, nor can I fathom, anything rocking my sense of worth so hard.
Maybe I need to experience being marginalized due to my sex or race or whatever to be empathetic? I dunno. I'm sure there's more to it that can cause someone to break down like the person who wrote this. I want to understand.
Do I need a bunch of women to joke about guys with small dicks are worthless or something? Is that comparable? Should I be extremely offended and be willing to quit over that, like the world is against me because of it?
I'm honestly wondering here. Please help me understand. I'm serious. I just don't know what it's like.
The fact that words aren't going to hurt you as much because they aren't coming from an environment of actual systemic discrimination doesn't mean that the people who are hurt by words under discrimination are wrong or irrational.
It just means it's a thing you don't get to experience first-hand and should attempt to have empathy for nonetheless.
Do you think her coworkers were only like this in casual conversations and social situations, and treated her as a complete equal professionally? Or do you think their attitudes might have affected how they viewed her work, what she was assigned, her opportunities for advancement, etc.
It doesn't matter if you "take it seriously" or not when people who have power over you are doing this. It's not about being offended, it's about being unequal.
I once attended a hackathon around some humanitarian cause. Participants in general were nice. However, I joined a team, which had two kind of strong male characters in them. None of them would be able to discuss and think freely. One guy has worked in various startups. Without him telling me more about this, I could just infer how blame-driven his developer jobs were by seeing him interacting with the others. Really scary. The other imagined himself as an activist. So active, that in the end, we did not produce anything at that hackathon and I believe without these two males it would have been much simpler to actually get a discussion going and to have fun.
In general, the more educated and diverse people are, the more they are able to think and think independently. The more people are responsible for themselves the more they are responsible for creating a work atmosphere, that is healthy for all participants - because hate and exclusion lessen motivation and there is one thing that need to go out to all businesses and managers and hierarchical elements: You cannot motivate people - you can only demotivate them. And this can happen much faster than one might believe.
And even if that specific incident hadn't happened: a climate of gendered or sexually explicit comments is hostile. I'm sorry if you work somewhere that this isn't obvious or explicit. At my company, we're working to maintain a good culture, and none of the behavior described in the article -- none -- would be acceptable.
Thankfully we haven't had to deal with that yet. But I'm formulating some new interview questions reading this HN thread....
But sure. Tell her to 'grow up.' Tell her that because there are bad people in the world, it's her responsibility and role to accept and cater to them.
To be 100% clear: I'm not justifying this behavior at all. My point is that when having a beer with friends, its common to joke around like that. I'm just wondering if in French culture, when going out for drinks, if its common or socially acceptable to make these jokes. From the lady's viewpoint, it seems like its not.
At a bar, drinking beer? I dunno, sounds like they were joking around. If I can't talk about body parts at a bar while drinking beer, I'm not sure where you can.
I can't talk about these parts at the bar. And I'll feel very uncomfortable and will have to ask that person in the group to stop if they were to do that.
I hold a belief that one needs to maintain professional (or at least semi-professional) conduct in the bar too. Otherwise, it is just too immature.
In a workplace environment though it's definitely be a weird comment to hear