That is a terrible summary of what is written in that page.
Edit: See the commentary below the post.
"This is a blog post, an opinion piece, and a provocation to think. As Piper says, it is about “shifting perspective”. It is not being written by a university president, nor is it something we are acting upon. We are not actually firing anyone. A common argumentation device is to take something to the extreme to really help us do the shifting (and often with things regarding race and gender, this is an effective device, albeit upsetting for some)."
In what way is my summary terrible? I stand by it and I have the facts to back it up. When somebody says:
> If you are a white cis man (meaning you identify as male and you were assigned male at birth) you almost certainly should resign from your position of power. That’s right, please quit.
No reasonable person can make such a blatantly unfair demand and then accuse me of uncharitable interpretation of their opinion. In fact, I find it horrifying that someboy so unhinged as this woman was allowed to lecture in a university.
It is terrible because it ignores the fact that the author's intention is to provoke thinking, in a cynical way. It is one thing to say that a post contains racist/sexist etc pieces, it is another thing to say that the author is racist. In that case, Bo Burnham is someone who deserves a death sentence.
Even for a mathematician or scientist, a person has the right to talk with the extremes outside of classroom every once in a while.
I don't think I was cynical at all. I just took the most straightforward literal interpretation of what she wrote. And I think she really meant it since otherwise she would have apologized for any misunderstanding by now.
About he idea that the author's intention was to provoke thinking. What kind of thinking was it suppose to provoke? Push people to self-hate for who they are? Make the ones in the other camp sharpen their pitchforks and attack math departments until they comply with her lunacy?
On the idea that if you write something racist then you are not a racist. Yes you are. What she wrote was not comedy and it wasn't funny at all to me so she does not get the comedy pass.
Did you read the post? She says that's pointless and useless.
She also acknowledges that her blog post isn't going to change anything. Nobody is going to quit because they read this. She has no power to fire anyone. White men, on the other hand, have the power to not hire her, to fire her, and so forth.
So what's the damage? Why are you mounting an all-out attack against her because you were reminded of her thesis? Why are you hurting so much?
Yes. Remember, I linked to it. And, as painful as it was, I did read the whole thing.
White men, on the other hand, have the power to not hire her, to fire her, and so forth.
So the implication is that a majority of these white men in position of power are bigoted? I think an alternative explanation for her not getting hired is that maybe she didn't meet their standards. I understand that this is maybe a difficult conclusion to accept if you're a female supremacist with a fragile ego.
Why are you mounting an all-out attack against her because you were reminded of her thesis?
I think the attack is well-deserved for reasons that should be obvious by now.
If you read the whole thing, you should have read that she says that your self hate isn't what she wants. She explicitly says that's useless.
If white men aren't responsible, then who is?
Her perceived attack is completely without power. She has no power to harm you. She addresses this in the post. So why do you feel so hurt? Why is it so painful?
Who hurt you, buddy?
Please remember that your guilt is pointless. Pointless. Nobody wants you to self-hate. Your intentions can be noble and pure, your prejudices (which you do have, just like anyone else) can be unintentional, and you can still be taking up unwarranted space.
> Maybe she is responsible for her own failures. What a radical idea is that?
She's not talking about herself, but about the whole thing. The whole imbalance.
So you think it's black people's fault that there aren't more of them in academia? White people have done nothing wrong, it's black people who aren't trying hard enough?
You don't think that is a racist idea? It ignores the heritage of centuries of oppression.
Who hurt you? Why are you hurting so much? What are you so afraid of?
Would you please stop engaging in ideological flamewar on HN? It is not what this site is for.
I haven't banned your account because you haven't used HN primarily for this. Nevertheless, feeding trolls is trolling in its own right. It perpetuates the worst dynamics of the internet and those are what we have to proactively moderate lest this site be engulfed in flames. So please don't do this again.
Sorry. I figured this thread was already dead except to the two of us, so no one would be bothered if I kept talking to him. I guess the mods still see everything?
I so desperately want to reach out to him and people like him. I would have moved on to email, if I could have found one. I wish there was a private message function on HN.
What's the damage? The damage is that racism is evil irrespective of who the racist is (and yes, black people can be racist too, as any reputable dictionary should be able to prove to you). And every instance of it should be denounced, especially the more egregious ones like this one.
You can say, there's no problem, she doesn't have any power. I would counter that it's not true. These people have large followings and many apologists (like yourself). And even if it were true that she had no power, her hate should be confronted. People should learn the limits of good behavior in civilized society.
You say this is not about instilling guilt, because the author said so. I will put it to you that even if it was not her intention (and I'm not so sure about that), it might still end up happening (if you want to understand the kind of effect such accusations, even when only implied, can have on people, read [http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2119]). When I read "you are the problem" it sure sounds like an accusation to me (and a pretty serious one at that). And this accusation is surely bigoted when you apply it indiscriminately to a whole class of people.
> The damage is that racism is evil irrespective of who the racist is
But... why? You're not giving an example of any damage other than abstractions like "evil". Did you lose your job? Do you fear for your safety? Are you being unfairly judged? Did you have an unfair disadvantage under some minority group?
To quote a well-known feminist, men are afraid of being laughed at, but women are afraid of getting killed.
> These people have large followings and many apologists (like yourself)
But our power isn't comparable. We can write a few blog posts or HN comments. White men make the hiring decisions. This is not the same kind of thing.
> if you want to understand the kind of effect such accusations,
Sorry for not responding earlier to the Scott Aaronson blog post, but it's a bit long. I just read a bit bit of it, I'm not sure what part of that story you're referring to.
You can understand being part of a problem through no fault of your own, right? That's what I was trying to convey with the traffic analogy. To quip, you're not in traffic, you are traffic?
And by the way, this commentary that you quoted is by Adriana Salerno, not by the original author. This commentary appeared after the negative reaction to the blog post; the initial version of the blog post did not contain it.
I think by labeling it "opinion piece" the American Mathematical Society was distancing themselves from the content (as well they should).
I notice now that this commentary was also edited, but some of the more egregious statements remain quoted in the comments of the blog. In other words, even the commentary used to be worse.
It is racist and misandrist because it singles out _all_ white men. I don't know how I can make this any clearer. Would it be any easier to understand if you substituted "white men" with "jews"?
And by the way, in what way are _all_ of them part of the problem? And how does she know that? Does she know all of them? How should I call somebody who unapologetically makes disparaging and hateful statements about whole groups of a people?
The link with her thesis is that she wrote it. And by the way, let me just say that her thesis is special... and leave it at that.
> Would it be any easier to understand if you substituted "white men" with "jews"?
No, because Jews aren't an overwhelming majority of people taking up space in universities.
Think of something else. There's lots of traffic on the road. Can we blame any individual driver for the traffic? No. Each is a happy little individual doing the best they can, and how could they have known that every other individual would have wanted to drive that day.
But all of those individuals, following their own little selfish goals are what constitute traffic. In order to reduce traffic, they should get off the road and not drive. Walk, take a bike, whatever.
Let's go back away from this somewhat tortured analogy. If white men are not responsible for filling up the overwhelming majority of mathematician positions with white men, then who is?
Going back to her thesis, it's really odd to me how emotional you get over this and can't separate the thesis from the blog post.
No, because Jews aren't an overwhelming majority of people taking up space in universities.
I think you'll find that they are overrepresented. How did that come about? And to turn your question back at you: if jews are not responsible for their over-representation in academia, then who is?
How about this? Should all the black NBA players (which is most of them) should resign too and make room for white people? Clearly they are responsible for keeping all the white men out. I could go on forever.
Going back to her thesis, it's really odd to me how emotional you get over this and can't separate the thesis from the blog post.
> if jews are not responsible for their over-representation in academia, then who is?
Jews are responsible for their overrepresentation in academia! There's a lot of cultural factors that drive Jews to academia. Scholarship and hard work has always been valued in Jewish culture, traditionally focussed on studying the Torah, but also spread out to any other enterprise. Jewish folklore has many scholarly role models, traditionally in the form of a rabbi and more modernly as scientists.
> Should all the black NBA players (which is most of them) should resign too and make room for white people?
Maybe they should! And try to become profs instead! The same racist factors that drive black people out of academia drives them into sports instead. The culturally accepted avenue of success for them is sports, not scholarship.
We've banned this account for ideological flamewar. That is emphatically not what this site, and when accounts use HN primarily for political or ideological battle, we ban them.
I think this is really unfair. I was downvoted a lot and I'm not sure what for. Every single statement I made in the initial post in this tread was 100% correct and I stand by it. I didn't downvote anybody, I didn't create this account to enter flamewars, and I would have stopped posting on this subject soon enough (it's become clear that I'm talking to the walls).
"Respected research math is dominated by men of a certain attitude. Even allowing for individual variation, there is still a tendency towards an oppressive atmosphere, which is carefully maintained and even championed by those who find it conducive to success."
This is def consistent my personal experience... Not so much sexism (nowadays at least) but a strange mix of ageism, cult of innate 'genius', and gymnastics/ballet-like, endurance/bravado-focused ultracompetitiveness [1,2,3]. I increasingly blame Hardy's bestseller --and his abiding influence on mathematics culture worldwide-- for it.
(Also I can't believe such a diss was accepted in the first place... Sign of changing times.)
26 comments
[ 5.2 ms ] story [ 61.6 ms ] threadEdit: See the commentary below the post.
"This is a blog post, an opinion piece, and a provocation to think. As Piper says, it is about “shifting perspective”. It is not being written by a university president, nor is it something we are acting upon. We are not actually firing anyone. A common argumentation device is to take something to the extreme to really help us do the shifting (and often with things regarding race and gender, this is an effective device, albeit upsetting for some)."
> If you are a white cis man (meaning you identify as male and you were assigned male at birth) you almost certainly should resign from your position of power. That’s right, please quit.
No reasonable person can make such a blatantly unfair demand and then accuse me of uncharitable interpretation of their opinion. In fact, I find it horrifying that someboy so unhinged as this woman was allowed to lecture in a university.
Even for a mathematician or scientist, a person has the right to talk with the extremes outside of classroom every once in a while.
About he idea that the author's intention was to provoke thinking. What kind of thinking was it suppose to provoke? Push people to self-hate for who they are? Make the ones in the other camp sharpen their pitchforks and attack math departments until they comply with her lunacy?
On the idea that if you write something racist then you are not a racist. Yes you are. What she wrote was not comedy and it wasn't funny at all to me so she does not get the comedy pass.
Did you read the post? She says that's pointless and useless.
She also acknowledges that her blog post isn't going to change anything. Nobody is going to quit because they read this. She has no power to fire anyone. White men, on the other hand, have the power to not hire her, to fire her, and so forth.
So what's the damage? Why are you mounting an all-out attack against her because you were reminded of her thesis? Why are you hurting so much?
If you read the whole thing, you should have read that she says that your self hate isn't what she wants. She explicitly says that's useless.
If white men aren't responsible, then who is?
Her perceived attack is completely without power. She has no power to harm you. She addresses this in the post. So why do you feel so hurt? Why is it so painful?
Who hurt you, buddy?
Please remember that your guilt is pointless. Pointless. Nobody wants you to self-hate. Your intentions can be noble and pure, your prejudices (which you do have, just like anyone else) can be unintentional, and you can still be taking up unwarranted space.
She's not talking about herself, but about the whole thing. The whole imbalance.
So you think it's black people's fault that there aren't more of them in academia? White people have done nothing wrong, it's black people who aren't trying hard enough?
You don't think that is a racist idea? It ignores the heritage of centuries of oppression.
Who hurt you? Why are you hurting so much? What are you so afraid of?
I haven't banned your account because you haven't used HN primarily for this. Nevertheless, feeding trolls is trolling in its own right. It perpetuates the worst dynamics of the internet and those are what we have to proactively moderate lest this site be engulfed in flames. So please don't do this again.
I so desperately want to reach out to him and people like him. I would have moved on to email, if I could have found one. I wish there was a private message function on HN.
You can say, there's no problem, she doesn't have any power. I would counter that it's not true. These people have large followings and many apologists (like yourself). And even if it were true that she had no power, her hate should be confronted. People should learn the limits of good behavior in civilized society.
You say this is not about instilling guilt, because the author said so. I will put it to you that even if it was not her intention (and I'm not so sure about that), it might still end up happening (if you want to understand the kind of effect such accusations, even when only implied, can have on people, read [http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2119]). When I read "you are the problem" it sure sounds like an accusation to me (and a pretty serious one at that). And this accusation is surely bigoted when you apply it indiscriminately to a whole class of people.
But... why? You're not giving an example of any damage other than abstractions like "evil". Did you lose your job? Do you fear for your safety? Are you being unfairly judged? Did you have an unfair disadvantage under some minority group?
To quote a well-known feminist, men are afraid of being laughed at, but women are afraid of getting killed.
> These people have large followings and many apologists (like yourself)
But our power isn't comparable. We can write a few blog posts or HN comments. White men make the hiring decisions. This is not the same kind of thing.
> if you want to understand the kind of effect such accusations,
Sorry for not responding earlier to the Scott Aaronson blog post, but it's a bit long. I just read a bit bit of it, I'm not sure what part of that story you're referring to.
You can understand being part of a problem through no fault of your own, right? That's what I was trying to convey with the traffic analogy. To quip, you're not in traffic, you are traffic?
I think by labeling it "opinion piece" the American Mathematical Society was distancing themselves from the content (as well they should).
I notice now that this commentary was also edited, but some of the more egregious statements remain quoted in the comments of the blog. In other words, even the commentary used to be worse.
Also, what does this have to do at all with her thesis?
And by the way, in what way are _all_ of them part of the problem? And how does she know that? Does she know all of them? How should I call somebody who unapologetically makes disparaging and hateful statements about whole groups of a people?
The link with her thesis is that she wrote it. And by the way, let me just say that her thesis is special... and leave it at that.
No, because Jews aren't an overwhelming majority of people taking up space in universities.
Think of something else. There's lots of traffic on the road. Can we blame any individual driver for the traffic? No. Each is a happy little individual doing the best they can, and how could they have known that every other individual would have wanted to drive that day.
But all of those individuals, following their own little selfish goals are what constitute traffic. In order to reduce traffic, they should get off the road and not drive. Walk, take a bike, whatever.
Let's go back away from this somewhat tortured analogy. If white men are not responsible for filling up the overwhelming majority of mathematician positions with white men, then who is?
Going back to her thesis, it's really odd to me how emotional you get over this and can't separate the thesis from the blog post.
How about this? Should all the black NBA players (which is most of them) should resign too and make room for white people? Clearly they are responsible for keeping all the white men out. I could go on forever.
Sorry, I can not separate work from the author.Jews are responsible for their overrepresentation in academia! There's a lot of cultural factors that drive Jews to academia. Scholarship and hard work has always been valued in Jewish culture, traditionally focussed on studying the Torah, but also spread out to any other enterprise. Jewish folklore has many scholarly role models, traditionally in the form of a rabbi and more modernly as scientists.
> Should all the black NBA players (which is most of them) should resign too and make room for white people?
Maybe they should! And try to become profs instead! The same racist factors that drive black people out of academia drives them into sports instead. The culturally accepted avenue of success for them is sports, not scholarship.
This is def consistent my personal experience... Not so much sexism (nowadays at least) but a strange mix of ageism, cult of innate 'genius', and gymnastics/ballet-like, endurance/bravado-focused ultracompetitiveness [1,2,3]. I increasingly blame Hardy's bestseller --and his abiding influence on mathematics culture worldwide-- for it.
(Also I can't believe such a diss was accepted in the first place... Sign of changing times.)
[1] https://mathbabe.org/2014/08/15/i-love-math-and-i-hate-the-f...
[2] http://listeningtogolem.blogspot.com/2016/08/the-invisible-p...
[3] https://mathbabe.org/2015/01/16/representation-of-women-and-...