Launch HN: 70MillionJobs (YC S17) – Job board for people with criminal records

1879 points by RBBronson123 ↗ HN
Edit: Thank you everyone for the incredible wealth of insightful suggestions. To anyone who wants to continue the conversation, I'd appreciate your pinging me at richard@70millionjobs.com with your continuing ideas, so we can stay in touch. Many challenges lie ahead for us, but your help will keep us on the right track.

Again, on behalf of all the folks with records trying to get on with their lives, and myself personally, thanks again for your incredible support. Richard

-------------------------------------

Hi HN,

My name is Richard Bronson and I'm the founder/CEO of 70MillionJobs (https://www.70millionjobs.com). Our website is the Internet's first job board for 70 million Americans—1 in 3 adults—with criminal records.

I'm something of a domain expert in this area because I myself have a criminal record. In the early 1990s, I worked on Wall Street and some of what I did was illegal. For a time I was a partner at the infamous Wolf of Wall Street firm, Stratton Oakmont (Scorcese film). I ended up with a 2 year Federal prison sentence. I was guilty.

I experienced first hand how difficult it was to get on with life after going through the "system." I served as Director at Defy Ventures, a great non-profit in the reentry space, but was interested in a scalable solution to ex-offender unemployment and resultant recidivism. I felt a new, for-profit, tech-based approach was necessary, so I launched 70MillionJobs. We're seeking "double bottom-line" returns: make money and do social good.

Like most job boards, our business model is based upon employers paying to advertise their jobs. We expect additional revenue to come from municipalities, who spend tens of billions of dollars annually, when someone is rearrested.

You might not be surprised to learn that most formerly incarcerated men and women are petrified to discuss their background with prospective employers. So we created a "safe haven" where all parties knew the score, and applicants could relax knowing that jobs being offered were with companies that accepted their pasts.

Since many of our applicants don't have a laptop or easy access to the Internet, we send out text alerts they can easily respond to. Because most of these folks have limited work experience and limited formal education, we plan on building a video resume platform to accompany their resumes. In person, many of these folks are respectful, bright and personable, so this will show them at their best.

540 comments

[ 5.8 ms ] story [ 197 ms ] thread
Love what you are doing. This is the kind of startup I love to see being pushed forward.

With lower entry barriers for tech startups, one would expect to see more startups that fight for a better world, instead of startups who fight for selling your data faster, or detecting your face better to overlay a duckface on top of it.

This is why seeing a startup like yours makes me hopeful.

Wish you best of luck!

Thanks so much for your kind words! I appreciate it.
Hey Richard, love this idea. I firmly believe in the notion that once you've paid your debt to society you should be able to participate in society as anyone else would. That this is not the fact is atrocious to me.

Do you need a remote full-stack programmer?

Thank you for your insight. When the dust settles, we should talk.
Another full stack dev here, I would also love to help with something meaningful. Feel free to PM me in the future, if I can be of assistance. Remote, from Canada, Pacific timezone.
how is doing time "repaying a debt to society"? Seems to me incarceration is a proving ground to show you're no longer dangerous, _then_ one can begin to repay whatever injustices occurred?
That's not how it's framed in the US. Incarceration is purposefully made as horrible as possible (rape, beatings, inedible food, solitary confinement) to ensure full debt repayment prior to release.

I agree, it's disgusting, but that's the status quo.

Also how is eye for an eye "repayment" . If someone steals my car I dont want them raped-- I want my car back, plus a few bucks to cover the taxis I took while it was gone.
I'm looking forward to hearing your feedback and am happy to answer any questions about 70millionjobs, the challenges faced by people with criminal records, and ideas you may have to improve our site.
Just curious, how do you know that the job postings you're listing accept those with criminal backgrounds?

Is this a list of curated companies? Or is there something that you're parsing out that denotes this acceptability?

I'm curious about this as well because the two listings I clicked on had requirements like "must be able to pass a criminal background check" and "must have stable work history" as their first hiring criteria.
There may be several factors going into this; for example, in the Bay Area, positions in the city of SF are prohibited from considering conviction history that is not "directly related" to the job. It also suggests specific language for including this information on job postings and corporate websites.

I would love to hear from company founders about what factors they use to discover this information in their external job listings that are not on jurisdictions like this.

Source: http://www.millerlawgroup.com/publications/alerts/San-Franci...

The site as it stands doesn't, as looking at the site currently has plenty of jobs that requires passing a criminal background check. It appears this site is more idea than execution at this point.
A friend of mine finally had his record cleared of incidents from when he was 19-20. He took courses to learn to program but even now it's still hard for him to get a job because people want to know about the huge gap in his employment history from when nobody would hire him.
Your friend just needs to say he was doing consultant work for himself during these periods.
And he can, honestly, say that he sucks at getting clients for his consulting, but that he is good at coding.
"I can't discuss who my other clients are with you, but I'd be happy to talk to you about the challenges I faced."

Proceed to bullshit.

"Incidents"?

You mean his crimes? No need to abstract reality.

Doesn't "had his record cleared" make it obvious that we're talking about his crimes? This seems needlessly pedantic.
"Personal crisis."

I was a homemaker for a lot of years. I also happened to be too sick to hold down a job during that time, but homemaker sounds so much better on a resume.

Find a preferably true and accurate description that is palatable to employers. Then realize it is tough all over at the moment. LOTS of people are having trouble getting hired at all.

Do you mind if I ask if you're a woman? IIRC there's pretty substantial hiring discrimination against men who claim to be homemakers (because it's less common so people assume that they're lying). The other side of the coin obviously being that women with kids are discriminated against in hiring due to assumptions that they'll be distracted by their family obligations.
Yes, I am a woman. No need to ask: It is listed in my profile.

Also: I did not suggest a man call himself a homemaker. So, I am not sure what the point of your comment is.

> Also: I did not suggest a man call himself a homemaker. So, I am not sure what the point of your comment is.

Uh, I'm not sure where this hostility is coming from. Just because someone responds to your comment doesn't mean they're disagreeing with you. I was just adding the context for anyone who sees your comment and interprets it narrowly as thinking that putting 'homemaker' on their resume gap is a useful way to explain it away without understanding the pitfall for 50% of the workforce.

I don't see why you are calling that hostility. You could have made the point you made here without implying I was suggesting that some man should go with that framing.

I am quite open about my gender. Lots of people recognize that I am female. Those that don't can easily determine my gender by clicking into my profile. I have zero reason to believe people will interpret my remark to mean that men should call themselves homemakers.

> I don't see why you are calling that hostility.

Claiming that "I don't see the point of your comment" isn't hostile is just disingenuous.

> You could have made the point you made here without implying I was suggesting that some man should go with that framing.

> I have zero reason to believe people will interpret my remark to mean that men should call themselves homemakers.

No such implication was made. I liked your comment and was adding context that I thought was relevant. I also didn't claim that you were hiding your gender? I don't check everyone's profile on the off chance that it has the relevant information about them that I'm about to ask them. If you're not mature enough to handle someone _agreeing with_ and trying to expand on your comment without imagining yourself under attack by implications you pulled out of thin air, this conversation is a waste of both of our time.

Do people care about that if he does freelance work? Or has he mostly looked for employment? And if so, why not freelance?

At least in my neck of the woods (Western Europe) it's (relatively) easy to find programming work as a contractor/freelancer, and as far as I can tell employment history doesn't matter, at least not in the 'web' space of programming.

This is a great initiative and hopefully will lead to a positive change for everyone involved. Will you also be thinking about training/education opportunities for applicants?
That is something that has occupied more and more of my thoughts. thanks for asking
Not a problem. I've always genuinely felt that all people are good people and that when given a chance to integrate and succeed in society, they can make it. Some are just less fortunate to not acquire skills that are needed for jobs today but give them training and more importantly, give them confidence in themselves that there is always hope and I am sure their lives can be transformed.

I just read this story and thought it might be interesting for you: http://www.sgi.org/people-and-perspectives/changing-lives-in...

Have you thought about collaborating with CEO works?

https://ceoworks.org/

We are currently doing just that, in NY and CA. Their NY director of Workforce Development is on our Advisory Board.
I was curious about local jobs, so I put in "Minnesota" and get to https://www.70millionjobs.com/search/-/Minnesota – but then when I put more search terms into keywords I keep getting the same results (including keywords that I can tell have associated jobs). I'm guessing it's falling back to ZipRecruiter entirely, but it's also not searching those entries.
Thanks for this question. We are not yet working in Minnesota (we're currently focused on CA and NY Metropolitan area), so search results outside those parameters are not good. We're working on it.
I very much like what you're doing for those of us who've made wrong choices in the past. However, I am a little bit concerned what drives a company to go to a site -especially made for those people- looking for future employees.
Great question. First of all, while we believe that there's a morality issue here, along with good corporate citizenry, ultimately, we have to serve a viable HR value to corporate America. In fact, there are some 6 million jobs currently unfilled in this country--many of the sort our applicants would excel at. Not filling jobs costs businesses enormously. So we hope to bring that value. At the same time, progressive companies conscious of their corporate issue may feel (or may not) that making an affirmative statement like this hold inherent value, as well.
The hardest workers are people who are (re)building their lives from nothing... Largely immigrants and ex-cons.
In my experience, that's a very true observation
I love seeing startups who can actually transform lives. Its sad being a developer with no technical limitations but have no useful ideas.
I love the idea, and I really want your company to succeed. I don't really consider myself very easily offended or PC, but I thought it seemed a little stereotypical that the first two images in the hero were black people. I think that should be changed as quickly as possible if you don't want to get any backlash. My two cents : )
I appreciate this observation, but our prisons are predominately filled with people of color.
Really? From what I understand, the number of black inmates in prison is roughly equal to the number of white inmates (about 40%/40%). There is a large disparity in terms of the incarceration rate of people of color, but your above statement is not true.
Yeah, but "people of color" doesn't only refer to black people--the other 20% are also people of color. So 60-40, and it's true that US prisons are predominantly populated with people of color.
That seems like splitting hairs. Obviously I can do the math, and I'm not saying there aren't more people of color in prison, I'm saying that it's not just black people, as the website would have you believe.
hmmm, is this correct? It seems the real proportion is 39/40/19 among Whites/Blacks/Hispanics.

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/rates.html

From The Bureau of Justice Statistics, the "Prisoners in 2015" report, table 8, page 13 [0]:

>Percent of sentenced prisoners under the jurisdiction of state or federal correctional authorities, by age, sex, race, and Hispanic origin, December 31, 2015

446,700 white male prisoners 501,300 black male prisoners 301,500 hispanic male prisoners 122,400 other male prisoners

Which means male adults of color (925,200) make up more than double the male white adult (446,700) state/federal prison population.

[0]https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p15.pdf

The more disturbing statistic being that 1,745/100,000 black adults are incarcerated, compared to 317/100,000 white adults.

Female incarceration rates do not follow this same trend identically according to the data, and they make up only ~7% of the total correctional population.

The majority of images (and there are not many) seem to be black. The hero images, the About pages, all young black people. The only white person is the CEO (which show up predominately on the blog and about the team)

As others have mentioned, our prisons are not predominately filled with people of color (although, I'm sure many people would believe that to be). A bit more diversity would definitely be nice ;)

This is awesome, congratulations on your launch!
I think this is awesome, and I was relieved to see the focus on non-white collar crime. Some questions that I think are systemic to the entire area -

The companies hiring are at somewhat of an advantage (they can hire anyone, the employees have more limited options). How do you ensure they get a fair offer, and not, like migrant labor, receive a below market offer? Would the marketplace effect here help prevent that? (edit - looking at the website, duh, it looks like you've solved this - awesome - and found good companies.)

Your revenue model is based on companies laying to get access to these prospective employees - how do you get past the stigma (without breaching q1 above)?

I like the municipality revenue model - it would be awesome to see them as "reverse recruiters" we're they pay every time someone gets a job.

>How do you ensure they get a fair offer, and not, like migrant labor, receive a below market offer?

This will be legal employment, so hopefully the abuses resulting from migrant employment won't happen, but the salary they are getting will be below the "normal" market price, at least for a long time - and this is a good thing, since they would otherwise not be hired at all.

We can't ensure they get a fair offer, other than by providing information and access to resources to address such injustices. I judge our success one job at a time, and one repaired family at a time.
Oof - unsolicited advice, but that combined with your acknowledgement of racism in the system will have some people calling you the plantation market. Even though you're not saying it explicitly, what I just read is that implicitly your revenue model is based on giving companies access to a below market cost labor force that's predominantly POC. While I lean towards the idea that its better they have access to a job than not, I think it's also vital to pursue full wages, rather than partial wages despite their debt to society being paid.
Not below market at all. There's great demand for this labor, and it's driving wages up, if anything. The real effective response, I think, is providing training for jobs that pay much more than minimum wage. That's something we're working on, at scale. More on this at a later date.
Negative bias towards those with records--along with a healthy dose of racism--is certainly at play, but I see the zeitgeist moving swiftly in the right direction. But it's a challenge, for sure.
Do you employ people with criminal records?

As an employer, I want to hire the best people so my company can be successful. Why would I hire anyone from your site when there are plenty of other candidates elsewhere?

Do you think people will try to use your site to disqualify potential hires (i.e. use it as a do-not-hire list so those registered with the site can specifically be avoided)? How will you prevent this from occurring?

Why would a company that doesn't care about criminal records advertise with you? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to advertise on a generic job board, take the best resumes, and sort out criminal history issues as they arise?

Does your site allow employers to see what a job seeker's crime was, or any other info related to that that other job boards wouldn't provide?

Why would having a criminal record automatically preclude you from hiring these folks?

Hell, Hans Reiser wrote a great filesystem and he murdered his wife. John Draper and Kevin Mitnick would probably both be good hires for certain roles. Steve Jobs could've been easily arrested for drug use.

"As an employer, I want to hire the best people so my company can be successful. Why would I hire anyone from your site when there are plenty of other candidates elsewhere?"

Not associated with that company but one reason to hire a convict is that you get a pretty decent tax break[0] out of it

[0]https://www.doleta.gov/business/incentives/opptax/

> Why would I hire anyone from your site when there are plenty of other candidates elsewhere?

Someone with criminal record has something to prove, so will be grateful for the job and work hard.

Can you sort by criminal record? e.g. Only white collar crimes.
No, we believe everyone deserves a second chance. It's a challenging moral quandary, I admit, but I for one am no one to pass judgement.
What about cases such as people who commit crimes against children? Would at the very least you say they don't deserve a second chance at working with children?
If you have a resume you can typically find a local newspaper report of whatever the crime was even if their name is John smith.

That said, local newspaper stuff is a horrible source of information. "Mr. Doe was charged with the entire book" routinely turns into a plea deal for the smallest charge on the list.

I would imagine the difficult aspect of this two-sided market would be employers.

Not to be obtuse, but what incentive would an employer have to hire someone with criminal records?

They have an incentive to hire someone, and often can't find qualified candidates through traditional channels.

In purely economic terms, I'm willing to bet some people with criminal records are willing to work for less than someone with the same qualifications and a clean record.

Hmm, so moneyball/arbitrage based on criminal history?

That's interesting; would be curious to hear if there's another side of the story as well.

Also, given employee churn and training costs are a thing - if ex-con workers are more likely to stay because it's harder for them to get a job elsewhere, you're more likely to keep the better ones.

Whether/how the math works there I dunno, it just occurred to me as another possible factor.

seems like a lot of what you'll need to do is on the employer education. please excuse my ignorance, I hope their not offensive, I'm just trying to help.

1. is there any extra liability for the employer if they knowingly hire someone formerly incarcerated and they commit a crime while working for them.

2. aren't some kind of tax credits for hiring formerly incarcerated incarcerated people.

3. is it only w2 or do you allow 1099 opportunities.

Actually, a federal bonding program has existed for decades, to indemnify employers making "at-risk" hires. Interestingly, on a very few claims have ever been filed. It's a myth that these folks will be criminals on the job. In fact, studies out of Harvard and U of Mass suggest that they actually can make better employees than those without records. There are indeed federal tax credits (Work Opportunity Tax Credits) available. Generally, we're talking w2 jobs (which are also a requirement of parole/probation, generally)
Thanks for the clarifications.

- It's a myth that these folks will be criminals on the job.

I wasn't trying to imply they were, I was more thinking of a company getting dragged into a witch hunt. Regardless of the population there's always a bad apple just like there's a diamond.

Just want to add support. One of my childhood friends has a felony from when he was an overly-rambunctious teenager that he still gets punished for - including being kicked off AirBnB - for something he stole more than 20 years ago. Despite this, he's a very successful leader in mental health services management.

So many people deserve a chance to redeem themselves from being 'branded', yet are denied the exact opportunities that would allow them to do so. This problem goes back a long, long ways.[1]

Anything you can do to help is great. Best of luck!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branded_Man

I will surely look into this. Thanks for sharing.
As someone who broke a whole lot of laws in his late teens and got off pretty easy for all of it, I wholeheartedly agree. They could have thrown the book at me but they didn't. Also, it helps if you don't confess to anything and hire a good attorney even if you end up taking a plea.

Let's face it, America sucks in a ton of ways and the biggest crooks are bankers and people in finance--they stole billions and got away with it over and over again. So nothing else quite compares except maybe whatever goes on with the CIA and drugs.

While I agree there are bigger crooks who go unpunished, the solution is not to let the smaller crooks go free, but to also catch the bigger ones. BTW just to be clear, I'm not advocating harsher punishment, just equal punishment.
Unfortunately some states (eg: Texas) don't allow you to expunge a felony no matter how long ago it was. My sister-in-law's HS boyfriend was a criminal jerk and she got caught up and charged as an accessory for something stupid (theft IIRC). She fully admits she was rebelling by going after a bad-boy. She had a public defender who met with her once and told her to take the deal to get probation. Unfortunately the plea was for a felony.

It's been 20 years, she's married to a good guy and has a baby... yet that black mark still comes up on her record.

Arizona, too, and you’ll find that’s common in tough-on-crime red states. I can petition to have mine “set aside,” but it sticks. I’m fortunate enough to have a great career in the Valley, but it comes up all the time as the upthread comment pointed out.

We are looking into gubernatorial pardon (Arizona has a decent process) but not holding my breath.

This is a pretty common American attitude found in many "non red" states as well: As soon as someone commits a crime--any crime and just once--they become a criminal. It's as if their species permanently changed from human to something else. They're not a human that made a bad decision, they are an "other". Since this new thing they have become is not human, all kinds of inhumane and terrible things can be done to them and justified, including permanent removal of rights, brutalization and rape in prison, permanent loss of employability and access to normal livelihood. All of these things are seen as OK because it's a criminal we're talking about, not an actual person.
The US criminal justice system focuses on punishment and not reform, "the box" on employment applications makes this patently obvious as does the removal of voting rights for felons. All of this stems from exactly what you mentioned, once convicted you are a criminal, that label follows you and there's little you can do to get rid of it.

The first step to improving any of this is changing deeply held beliefs by our society, and many days it feels like an impossible task.

p.s. it's a safe haven.
Ah yes. Typo fixed. Thanks!
This is really cool, and I hope that your platform takes off! The SMS integration for texting is also a nice touch. :)

One thing I wonder about is if folks in our industry would be more willing to have an felon of some variety working with them than somebody who's been tarred with the racist/sexist/conservative label?

Same question I had! Likely answer is YES (at least on HN boards and opinions to drive appearances, maybe not hiring for real).
happy to see you made it to YC, good luck!
thank you The YC experience has been great and everyone's been very supportive
I went through an IT technical degree at a community college. Three of my classmates were timing their graduation to the year their felony fell off background checks.

These guys spent 5 years grinding it out at whatever shit job would hire them just to spend 2 more in school + working with the hope of getting a simple rack & stack job, all because of some mistake they made in their late teens/early twenties. It was the exact same story 3 times, and all involving drug offenses.

It really gave me a different perspective on the situation. I don't think these 3 people should've been sidelined for 7 years. They could've been productive members of society well before that. Keeping them out of the skilled/professional workforce is painful.

This could be a huge untapped pool of candidates, as long as companies are willing to take the risk. I hope it takes off.

Thank you for sharing that. It's a common story. Attitudes are changing quickly, so I hold out hope. I very much appreciate your support.
It would be so great if attitudes were changing quickly in a positive direction. In tech, it is still impossible to get your first job after a career change as a woman, a person of color, or a person over say 35. Many of these people fall into one or all three of these categories. In addition to that, they have this ridiculous other hurdle to clear, and tech is still trying to figure out if women can do any technical work at all. It is great that people are making resources like this-- and for veterans, but I'm afraid that without penalties or major financial advantages for companies supporting "equality" and "diversity" it's gonna take longer than anyone actually has before homelessness. i wish we could find a way to get financial penalties/incentives for moral action to amplify the voices of the marginalized in tech. Ideas? Any takers on a partnership toward this? I'm fed up with companies not being held to account on this score. I may have to join Rosie O'Donnel's womens' party, since it seems it may take that kind of measure.
Tech is far less sexist and racist than you think it is. This article isn't about tech specifically, but I think it does demonstrate that if anyone, there is positive-sexism [ed: for women] happening when it comes to recruitment in western workplaces. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-tria...

Right now the demographic make up of companies don't match the population, that's true, but these companies do tend to match the demographics of trained programmers. The difference in demographics is from people choosing not to enter tech. If you want to fix the problem, work on training pipelines into tech.

The best way to summarize our different viewpoints is probably "Wanting Equality of Opportunity vs. wanting Equality of Outcome". And-- you assume that if the outcome of tech-demographics is different than the population, then it must be due to racism/sexism. There are other cultural and socio-economic factors that influence the demographics of tech.

> positive-sexism

What does that even mean? Isn't all sexism bad?

Sexism in favor of the people we're talking about. So, mainsteam thought views women as being the oppressed ones, but the study shows that women tend to get hired at a higher rate than men, simply by having a female name.

Another example of positive-racism-- being a white dude visiting China, I got into night clubs without paying. :-/ But cab drivers also consistently added 50-100% onto the fare.

Maybe it'd be worded better as "reverse sexism"?

Implying that it's "positive" doesn't do any social justice but incites the us vs them, 0 sum game train of thought.

If it's treating people differently on the basis of their gender then it's probably easier to just call it what it is - sexism. Then you can start justifying why this specific incidence of sexism might be a social good.
not even slightly surprised someone piped in with "tech is far less racist and sexist" than I think it is. Being less of that than I think it is would get an afirmative, supportive response, rather than the knee-jerk denial I have come to expect.
Sorry, I just don't see the evidence. I haven't seen it in my personal experience, and I already laid out my take on the demographics.

Is there evidence I'm missing? Besides my willingness to ask for evidence? :]

so you aren't seeing evidence of institutional racism, sexism, and ageism in tech? Not in your personal experience? When was the last time you reached out to someone in a marginalized group where you work and asked them about it? You might start with that, in fact we could all start right there. And maybe open with empathy and the assumption that their experience of these is true, rather than demanding evidence. I write you now as evidence of these myself, and how do you respond? How does anyone respond in this thread? Is there overwhelming empathy affirmation and support or is there indignant denial of a person's experience?
Nope. I see a lot of support for women and minorities in tech-- both in the form of mentoring events, hiring initiatives, networking events, and general cheerleading. I've talked to a lot of women and minorities in casual friendly drinking contexts, and I haven't heard any horror stories. You're right that I should specifically ask them if they've been on the receiving end of bias, and I'm going to.

Maybe I'm just in test-writing mode, but, if there's a bug, we ought to be able to write a test for it. If there is bias in tech, we ought to be able to see it in data. Maybe we need to look at 1st-job hiring rates? Maybe we need to look at people who drop out of tech after their first year and don't return? But I haven't seen it. I'm not asking you to do this data analysis, I just figured that... there are a lot of people examining this, and it should have been uncovered by now.

How have you experienced racism, sexism or ageism in tech?

FWIW getting into tech as a stereotypical white male is also an uphill struggle. Years of ostracism as a nerd, discrimination in school and early social life. It wasn't a pleasant experience for me and not I expect for many. If anything, computers were a respite from the unpleasantness of social life.
That is a true insight into why there is so much bullying (of women, of other men, of people of color, etc) in tech. I can see how that could really be upsetting throughout a life, and how it could engender a kind of constant (justified) anger. But then one would hope we could all realize this and move toward empathy and support the marginalized, each of us having had these experiences ourselves.
> That is a true insight into why there is so much bullying (of women, of other men, of people of color, etc) in tech.

I don't see how that follows from the parent comment. What do you mean by this?

If it was a bad experience for him, from which computers were a respite, as he said: i understood that he suffered ostracism, social isolation, bullying, and felt exculded and stressed-- unappreciated-- ridiculed-- called a nerd in the negative sense-- that sort of thing. That is painful. If we have an industry made up of men who experienced this in adolescence or in high dchool or even in college, that would be a lot of pain pushed down and covered up with the usual toughness and lack of empathy - a self-protecting measure in the face of abuse. I can see that it is formative for many people, and can be hard to switch off when one finally ascends to accomplishment, wealth, and power. I get that, and I think people should feel angry and hurt by ill treatment, but then try to reshape it somehow with effort into empathy for others who are being treated worse. I'm not saying it is easy, but as the intellectual elite, i think the industry ought to give it a real try-- set an example in a time when examples of empathy and support are more needed than ever.
And sadly this lack of socialization and singular focus on computers is often incorrectly attributed to "being on the spectrum" rather than being what it is, a person who withdrew into themselves and computers as the result of maltreatment by their peers in school.
Let's clarify that 'your take on the demographics' was an article about Australia that was not specific to the tech industry.

Here's a relevant piece from the Los Angeles Times.

'One example: Google's own data showed women were promoted less often than men because workers need to nominate themselves. Women who did so got pushback. Based on her studies, [Joan C.] Williams [law professor, UC Hastings College of the Law] found that women are rewarded for modesty and penalized for what men might see as "aggressive" behavior. Google began including female leaders at workshops to coach everyone — men and women — on how to promote themselves effectively. The gender difference among nominees disappeared, Williams said.'

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-women-tech-20150222-st...

You're forgetting to account for people who would be starting out in tech then find an environment that's impossible to work in so they leave the field.

These smart, awesome people never get to be "trained programmers" because attitudes like this allow casual, often unintentional behaviors to ruin their days.

Claiming this is a funnel problem is short sighted. We definitely need people in the funnel, but we also need to ensure they have an amazing time as they integrate into tech culture.

The computer science graduation stats are heavily skewed male. It happens way before the company hiring and first job phase so taking punitive actions at the hiring level is idiotic.
I don't know what most white people in this country feel, but I can only conclude what they feel from the state of their institutions.--James Baldwin
Presumably your definition of white is the convenient one that includes Asian people, right? Tech hiring has jack all to do with racism when the big companies are matching the ratios coming out of uni with CS degrees.
Obligatory reminder that tech companies at scale are nowhere near 100% CS grads. In most companies where I've worked (me: CS grad) over the last ~20 years, CS (and related) grads were the distinct minority of overall staff.

The population benchmark for "tech hiring" probably should look more like "college graduates" than "people with CS degrees."

That was James Baldwin speaking. I figured he had enough gravitas to present an idea, but even James Baldwin gets pushback on hacker news!
Would you please stop posting these cheap meta snipes to HN about HN? It's tedious, plus it's incongruent to diss a community while you're participating in it.

If you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; otherwise please don't comment until you do.

"plus it's incongruent to diss a community while you're participating in it."

No. Your attitude here is the crappy one. Without being called out, a community will never grow. It's entirely appropriate to call out a community for the issues it has. And yes, the HN community has a HUGE problem with not recognizing sexism and racism in the industry. Far too many are willing to take the, "I don't see it, so it doesn't exist" point of view, which not only means that things won't improve, but means that they will likely get worse, as those who are doing the bad things are noticing that they can get away with it.

If you don't want people to take snipes at your community, maybe you should look at why people are taking snipes at it, and work to be better.

(comment deleted)
Yes, agreed. A community that says it wants to be about equality and "meritocracy" would welcome the tough critique. Just like an elite athlete or an accomplished artist would welcome true feedback. Those who want to improve and ultimately excel in certain areas welcome vigorous crit., so they can incorporate that into their training and become better for it. We can't have a meritocracy without equality of opportunity; opportunity includes opportunity in every level of education, and yes within the hiring process. We can have the argument about "affirmative action" and how it might disadvantage a deserving white male who might not make it into the top 100 students at a med school because spaces were made for women and people of color, but then we would have to really think about the society we ultimately want to have. At some point, the rampant inequality needs to be aggressively tackled (with joy) and the knowledge that we are improving the system by promoting diversity and equality of opportunity at every level. I can't think of anything less tedious, as a previous commenter had mentioned. If one is actually interested in leveling the playing field, one would find a wealth of information (with a simple internet search)to support the idea that there is such sexism, racism, and ageism in tech. But the interest has to be there. Maybe more productively, one could examine one's own insecurities about why one would not want to support drastic measures that would help us all get closer to equality of opportunity. Because when people don't support rigorous and thoughtful critique in a discussion format, it really makes one wonder why they are so afraid that these ideas might be true.

And to the person who mentioned that my tone might be aggressive or somehow unpleasant: people have been saying that to the marginalized when they yelp in pain for centuries. Of course, no one wants to hear about how and whom they are actually hurting. They would rather those people play nice and exhibit a welcoming tone. I don't recall anyone worrying about their tone with respect to marginalized groups in tech. They rudely shoot them down, for the most part. That is why women leave tech in droves. And it ain't enough for us to shake our tiny fists by "not buying products" or whatever from these companies. (although, feel free to so) I'd rather the community know that there are actual people within their ranks who call bullshit. I'm sure there are the formerly incarcerated (remember Aaron Swartz would have been among these, as would Snowden, and Assange- so let's not forget about those people being considered "criminals" as well- just a reality check) women, people of color, veterans, and people over 35 in tech who read these threads and don't feel comfortable jumping in. I write here for them, hoping that one day, they will feel supported and comfortable speaking out.

> In tech, it is still impossible to get your first job after a career change as a woman, a person of color, or a person over say 35.

Nope. This is hyperbole (although not completely unfounded).

My department hired a junior female of color coder of color after she completed a coding bootcamp. She wasn't a diversity hire, she was simply the best person for the job at the time. We legitimately needed to fill the position and luckily the company was willing to take a risk on a junior dev. In her previous short career, she was a public school teacher. She's not a "rockstar", a "ninja", or a 100x programmer (neither am I), but she's reasonably good at programming and is curious and driven enough to teach herself whatever she doesn't know.

BTW, we are an early-stage, funded cybersecurity company with a fantastic product in San Jose, CA.

fantastic, that is at least one point for the team! way to go!
One of the first ideas might be to talk with people who meet those categories. I for one do not feel marginalized by my company or the tech industry in general (there are a lot, in fact too many, bad apples I've encountered, but the entire industry isn't rotten). In fact I would say I dealt with more bias when I worked in the government than in private tech companies.

For starters what you can personally do is not purchase or use services from companies you feel are unethical. Explain to your network why for example you won't use Uber or Reddit or whatever other company you're fed up. If you can get enough other consumers to see from your view you'll force these companies to change. This just recently happened with health food junkies, now we have McDonald's at least paying lip service to healthy eating and serving things like kale.

One thing that won't work if you're a tech outsider is shaming people who work in the industry. It's hard to collaborate with people if they feel your tone is hostile.

It would be so great if attitudes were changing quickly in a positive direction. In tech, it is still impossible to get your first job after a career change as a woman, a person of color, or a person over say 35. Many of these people fall into one or all three of these categories. In addition to that, they have this ridicoulous other hurdle to clear, and tech is still trying to figure out if women can do any technical work at all. It is great that people are making resources like this-- and for veterans, but I'm afraid that without penalties or major financial advantages for companies supporting "equality" and "diversity" it's gonna take longer than anyone actually has before homelessness. i wish we could find a way to get financial penalties/incentives for moral action to amplify the voices of the marginalized in tech. Ideas? Any takers on a partnership toward this? I'm fed up with companies not being held to account on this score.
I want to believe that attitudes are changing and I do believe that more and more people are behind efforts to make it easier for people with a criminal history to find jobs. But I still think that most people are quite NIMBY about it. They'd love for it to be much easier for them to find jobs, but they're still uncomfortable being the ones actually working with them.

Don't get me wrong...I think what you're doing is great, but I think "ban the box" laws that allow criminal histories to be hidden from prospective employers are the thing that's really going to make a difference. Because hiring managers can always find fault with a candidate, either consciously or subconsciously, and playing it safe with hiring decisions is often in their personal interests, even if it's not the right thing to do.

I'm curious about "changing attitudes".

Why should I give an opportunity to someone who has gone out of their way to hurt other people over a similarly qualified person who doesn't view other human beings as objects to take advantage of for their own personal gain?

Not sure I have all the answers but your concept of "the right thing to do" seems fairly unexamined.

So do we then assume that people who commit crimes can never be rehabilitated? If committing a crime makes you effectively unemployable except for the lowest common denominator jobs, then once you're convicted of a felony you will be punished for the rest of your life. You're at least implicitly asserting that that is "the right thing to do."

Are you sure you've deeply examined that concept?

My personal feeling is that "the right thing to do" is to evaluate applicants without any regard to their criminal history. There should be no box to check on applications and background checks should be prohibited from returning an applicant's criminal record. A person's debt to society is supposed to be their prison sentence and that sentence shouldn't extend beyond their time in prison. If we're giving second chances, we should be giving full chances, not half chances.

I'm not advocating for preferred treatment, just a lack of discrimination against ex-cons. The person who never went to prison should still have the advantage of work experience gained during the period that the felon was in prison. Anything beyond that is, in my view, unfair. I personally believe that the current system is designed, largely by lobbying on behalf of the for-profit prison system, to make it difficult for ex-cons to re-integrate into society and encourages recidivism. Society should want these people to be successful, if only so that they are no longer a financial burden.

I also believe that once people have finished serving their time, their right to vote should be restored. If you're expected to pay taxes and follow the laws of society, you should have your say in how public policy is made.

I recognize that my views are predicated on the idea that our justice and prison systems should aim for reform over punishment. Others will have a more vindictive goal for those institutions. I think the "changing attitudes" that I mentioned are people who are being converted from the vindictive camp to what I see as a pragmatic camp that believes a more compassionate approach will reduce crime and reduce the amount of money the state spends imprisoning people.

I completely agree that this bias is unfair, and that a sentence served, is supposed to be payback to society and therefore your standing should be reset. However, in the real world, once you have "shi* on your shoe", it is not that simple to remove, because humanity is not fair, and therefore society is not fair. This relates to peoples self-generated image of other people.
Excellent points and well argued. If the United States' solution to the lack of living wage employment is to just dump African Americans, Latinos and Native Americans into private prisons and the rest of the unemployed or underemployed into our military, the United States should not get to deprive these people of their vote, even while they serve time in prison. I think the US should have to live with the voting decisions of its prisoners. (we might then think twice about incarcerating whole swaths of people because we can't find a way around offering our people social services for a chunk of the money without turning a profit) I definitely think the eagerness with which we dump people in prison with "intent to sell" and ridiculous mandatory minimums has a lot to do with who we actually want to get a vote in the first place, just right out of the gate. So to me, it makes perfect sense that we harshly stigmatize a person after they have paid "their debt" to society by depriving them (or continuing to deprive them) of the vote, of a voice, of a say in places where they are the minority, and by keeping them unemployed.

(It's crystal clear that we don't want these people voting, not ever!, because it might shift power centers and it might allocate funds to the needy, etc.)

But we prefer the poor to always feel that they are non-people with a "debt" to society; and automatic debt they pay from the day they are born. The thing is, it starts out that way, and we know it to be true. So, we will always see these incarceration measures as punitive; this validates the current power structure and those who benefit from it. And of course that doesn't "work" (if by work we mean "rehabilitate folks), and of course people end up right back in jail -- our society has figured out a great system to keep these people marginalized forever. Other countries who approach incarceration like rehab (Norway?) see actual positive results from its incarcerated populations---but we clearly aren't aiming for positive results for the poor. We are definitely not interested in this data or we would be doing something about it. Heck, it's cheaper for taxpayers! But we don't want it to be cheaper for taxpayers; we (when I say we, I mean those who voices are heard loudly- the wealthy) want profit to those in power while at the same time, ensureing their power endures because they really don't want to deal with the bees escaping from that jar they have shaken for centuries. "We" hate the downtrodden in this country, "we" certainly don't want them to have a first chance, let alone a second chance. When "we" realize this, those of us who care about this and who definitely don't want to be a part of this kind of a "we" will need to speak out and unify. But too many are unable to see the machinery at work making this kind of awareness more difficult, too many buy into a meritocracy that awards them accolades when it does. I would think engineers and scientists, many of them would have an urge to be skeptical of the criminalization of poverty.

It's not about what they did, it's about what they will do. Of course their past is a factor in their future, but you could also view it in a different light: they are perhaps more motivated to succeed, or the automatically closed doors they get from other employers might mean you get better qualified people at a lower price if you take them into consideration.

Besides, I've met enough terrible people who were smart or lucky enough not to get convicted. Being a felon or not is (almost) no indication as to someone's character, just how adept they are at dodging the law.

At least in the US, their crime may well be something that doesn't obviously harm others (like possessing a small amount of marijuana for personal use, or consensual "sexting" among teens).

It might also make a difference if the crime was committed when they were very young, and they now clearly recognize that it was wrong and something they would not do again. I've never committed a crime or seriously harmed anyone, but there are things I did in my teens/early 20s that it find mortifying at 40.

I was a big proponent of the "ban the box" movement, but this article in The Atlantic has given me pause. tl;dr "when employers cannot access an applicant’s criminal history, they instead discriminate more broadly against demographic groups that are more likely to have a criminal record."

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/consequ...

I have never heard of a felony falling off a background check. Can you elaborate?
Some states allow for reduction of felonies to misdemeanor offenses after a specific amount of time has passed without re-offending. Many background checks don't reveal misdemeanors.
(comment deleted)
Quite weird that background check. We have something like that in Belgium but no employer ever asks for it. They actually never even asked to provide proof of my degree.

Only exception government jobs....

Felon here! I'm in a similar circumstanc. Four felony convictions to be specific, 1x drug possession (adderall) 3x trafficking marijuana (same case, multiple counts). I was certainly guilty on all counts. Lost my job after employer found out about the first felony probation (adderall), made some severely short-sighted decisions to supplement my income (traffic marijuana). Anyways it's late and I have company, but TLDR: Job hunting as a felon(for any reason, most don't care to understand the details) it's much more limiting than I would have ever anticipated.

OP: Thanks for starting this, good luck, I've been thinking about doing something similar for a while now!

Why buy a domain name for a number that will fluctuate over time?
My greatest pleasure will be the day I have to buy 60millionjobs.com, 50mill....