The memo did slam the diversity efforts at Google. If the headline had been something like "Anti-diversity memo" you might be able to claim a lack of impartiality, but I think even the author of the memo would agree that it specifically called out some of the diversity efforts at Google.
The irony here is the fallout from this memo is exactly what the author was trying to fight against. Most negative reactions I have seen to the memo attempt to shame the author without engaging in any sort of rational counter or discourse. Whether or not the author is "right" is entirely up for debate, but I believe they should be able to at least question the current situation and get logical feedback as to why they are "right" or "wrong" rather than emotionally-based feedback about how horrible of a person they are.
I find it difficult to substantively argue against the author because it's such a hodgepodge of assertions, including a bulleted list of what the a author considers "left" and "right" biases.
Agreed. I don't grasp how, in response to a text lamenting a lack of psychological safety and fear of being shamed into silence, a response which essentially states "what you said was stupid, you should never have talked about it and this will have negative consequences for your career" can be considered appropriate, let alone as having a positive impact in any meaningful way.
The person essentially gave ANY woman he works with a gender descrimination suit slam-dunk.
Are you a woman? Does he review your code poorly? Did you possibly lose a promotion/bonus because of review scores? You've got a great case.
Is he your manager? WOW do you have a great case.
Your career is based on peer reviews and he is one of your reviewers? Google is in trouble.
I don't think it IS up for debate but no matter what what he did is a NIGHTMARE for Google internally, let alone the PR and recruiting disasters it has become.
I'm assuming I was voted down for saying 'it wasn't up for debate'. Fine.
Does anyone disagree that in a discrimination case where the author is a party his 'manifesto' would be a BIG problem? If you disagree, I'd love to hear why. (IANAL)
The author's claims are not factual. The "biological" bases he asserts as fact are debunked, and not even recently. You say that we should engage with him, but there's nothing of substance there to engage with.
Could you provide links to the debunking research?
While not required, engaging with the manifesto's author openly might help convince others like him. He is certainly not alone in this mindset, and if it's easy to point out the faults in this line of reasoning, we should be able to correct this once and for all.
2. A sweeping variety of claims about the personality differences of coworkers at his own company and why these differences make it okay for him to discriminate.
3. A claim that there is "a bar" which is "lowered" for diversity candidates
Rather, diverse teams are demonstrably more effective than homogeneous teams: https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter, so even if by the author's chosen metrics "the bar" is "lowered", those are not good metrics. There is no single bar, when developing a cooperative group.
There's lots of other false claims, but I don't really want to do the digging. I've already engaged with this more than I think to be generally productive. And that's kind of the point: from a comfortable position where the author is not affected by the policies he argues, those who are must defend. For the author, it is a hypothetical. For the attacked, it is not. There is a fundamental asymmetry in any discourse here.
If all these things were true, shouldn't they be demonstrably obvious to everybody, such that their brightly shining obviousness would handily over power whatever -phobia or -ism du jour you think you are battling.
If they were so obviously true why aren't societies' and biologies' natural optimization mechanisms making them unmistakably and obviously true?
If it's really the case that women will do equal work for %X less money than men, why hasn't any organization capitalized on this by hiring only women and drastically reduced their costs?
But if word got out on this strategy thanks to you and your comrades tireless efforts then demand for this cheaper labor would go up and thus it's price would rise.
hmm... this claim seems counter to what we know about market economics.
If it's really the case that "diverse" teams(what's the definition of "diverse"?) are so superior to other configurations, then why aren't the Snaps, Bings, and HTCs of the world making it their number one priority to "diversify" and then demonstrating the shining obviousness of the "diverse" claim by successfully taking on the big bad "undiverse" market leaders.
Why do you think it is the purview of SJW brigades to bring these truths on the world when nature otherwise does a pretty good job of revealing her truths.
Just to summarize your post, you ask why it all isn't obvious yet and cite no evidence.
There are plenty of reasons for your questions with answers ranging from historical oppression, lack of early education in STEM for minorities, class differences, and more. Not to mention that not all that is true is obvious. You also seem to be ignoring a lot of people in various communities who are trying to communicate all this, writing them off as having an agenda against yours.
"Well maybe its wrong because it's not how the world is currently" is a terrible argument. Go back in time X years and say this about things the way they were. It's not going to sound good.
You assert that there's a magical unbiased optimization mechanism. There is not.
You then assert that women will do equal work for less money than men and then make a bunch of inferences based on this, ignoring multiple faulty aspects of the assertion in the first place.
The fundamental disagreement we're having is whether society is biased in the first place. You are making a bunch of analyses and logical inferences about social behaviors of people, but all of the things you are analyzing are fundamentally embedded in a biased culture. By contrast, the people you're arguing against are trying to change the culture that you are making analyses in such that we can actually use analyses like yours effectively. We claim that right now, we cannot.
The evidence suggests that "there are fundamental social biases against certain groups resulting in their disadvantage" is an explanation that better reflects reality than biological pseudoscientific assertions. See several of my links above, for instance citing studies that indicate that men judge women's competence based on appearance.
Thus, seeking to eliminate those biases is a goal which will result in value.
As others have noted, you're assuming a natural optimization in labor markets that is unproven. It seems like you're arguing that the value proposition of paying 0.9x wages for an employee of 1.0x talent would cause companies to snatch up all such disadvantaged workers, which in turn would result in their market price equalizing.
But that's a circular argument. The whole point that diversity proponents are arguing is that organizations and their hiring managers aren't rational economic actors, and that their biases have in fact distorted the market. So not exactly the invisible hand of balance you're talking about.
Also, for goodness sake, stop saying "SJW." Whether you're trying to win hearts and minds or just trololol, it doesn't matter; you'll do better without it. Because when I read it, I just feel a little sad and embarrassed for the person writing it.
I think it's important to require quotes alongside so to make discussion easier, by not having to force others to read long single-spaced 14px pages, and more accurate, by allowing the discussion to narrow in on the specific points.
1). The original claim was:
>"On average, men and women biologically differ in many ways. These differences aren’t just socially constructed because:
- They’re universal across human cultures
- They often have clear biological causes and links to prenatal testosterone
- Biological males that were castrated at birth and raised as females often still identify and act like males
- The underlying traits are highly heritable
- They’re exactly what we would predict from an evolutionary psychology perspective" (pg 3)
The claim is not that differences in each gender are universal across all cultures, only that, on average, there are biological differences that can be accounted for, without including social construction
The paper you linked also does not refute universal differences across human cultures, but suggest nurture may influence the behaviour of different genders. I believe the following:
"The underlying cultural differences between the Khasi and the Maasai offer
room for speculation on environmental factors." (pg. 1656)
sums up the paper well.
2). There were three claims. You're going to need to quote the specific points where you believe he implied or directly said it was okay to discriminate on gender.
Here was the short section on it:
"Women, on average, have more :
- Openness directed towards feelings and aesthetics rather than ideas. Women generally
also have a stronger interest in people rather than things , relative to men (also
interpreted as empathizing vs. systemizing ).
- These two differences in part explain why women relatively prefer jobs in social
or artistic areas. More men may like coding because it requires systemizing and even
within SWEs, comparatively more women work on front end, which deals with both
people and aesthetics.
- Extraversion expressed as gregariousness rather than assertiveness. Also, higher
agreeableness.
- This leads to women generally having a harder time negotiating salary, asking for
raises, speaking up, and leading. Note that these are just average differences
and there’s overlap between men and women, but this is seen solely as a
women’s issue. This leads to exclusory programs like Stretch and swaths of men
without support.
- Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance). This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs." (pg. 4)
"- Male Facebook employees are 40% more likely to have an inflated sense of superiority compared to female employees.
- Female employees at Apple and Microsoft are 23% more prone to anxiety than their male counterparts.
- Men at Microsoft are 35% more ambitious and 34% more calculating than females.
- Male Uber employees are 32% more socially assertive than female employees.
- Google’s workforce displayed no major differences between male and female employees."
These align with the author's points. However, we don't have access to the data and it should not be taken as evidence. I'd also like to note that the only reference outside of the website itself, is a plug for a job board. There are eight links citing itself and one for Good&Co.
3). This is not addressing the point that the bar is lowered. ...
This is a classic example of why we shouldn't feed the trolls. I am not sure why this letter is getting so much publicity. This view point can be had any day on reddit. Even in places like /r/technology you'll find plenty of people throwing out these ideas.
There are many viewpoints expressed on reddit that, if someone condenses into a manifesto, and sends out to their workplace, will, if all things are right in that workplace, result in swift termination.
Your job is not a debate club, nor does it exist as a platform for free speech.
Further, since we've had at least 5 gigantic shitshow threads about this on HN, it's not just boring but repetitive. This is exactly what the "flag" button under the headlines on stories here is for.
You may find it boring, but there are many people who's daily lives are affected by this type of behavior. Having it displayed so broadly at a company viewed as progressive as Google validates what marginalized people in these groups have been saying for years but keeps getting dismissed.
You can't discuss anything on the Internet anymore, everything is politicized ax-grinding by dishonest people fishing for clicks, personal celebrity, and Patreon money who just ruin the discussion.
Do real journalists still exist that can actually interview some of the parties involved, cut through the tweets and personality, and get both sides of this?
The uproar and its virality within Google first are so weird. From what I skimmed, that post was ultra mild and the author went out of his way to qualify everything.
It may appear that way on the surface, but that's because it follows a typical pseudo-scientific formula of citing some a few specific results as evidence to give the argument an air of credibility, and then drawing broad and profound conclusions that are at best vaguely related to the evidence. He basically went from "there are biological differences between men and women that affect their preferences" (okay, I can maybe buy that) straight to "women may not be as good a fit as men for these roles" and "Google should consider ending all of its diversity efforts". The evidence he cited (some of which is research that's been debunked) doesn't even come CLOSE to justifying his conclusions.
The reason there's such an uproar within Google is that the place is full of people with extensive training in mathematics and logic, who can easily spot when you submit a "proof" that is missing about 10,000 steps between the low level lemmas and the top level claims. Combine this with the fact that the claims are questioning the right of 1/3 of the company to exist there, and of course the reaction is going to be incredibly visceral. I honestly don't know how anyone could read more than a paragraph of that document without their bullshit detector exploding.
I suspect the pretend-polite tone makes it even worse. Women are tired of hearing these prejudices, but they're often abrupt, poorly spelled missives that are easy to ignore.
When somebody wraps it into a careful sandwich of "But have you considered testosterone? Just asking..." for 10 pages long, it feels like the author is seriously working hard to undermine your professional status, not just spouting on a drunk night.
I would encourage everyone here to actually go ahead and read the manifesto/letter. I did and was surprised by its tone, given the type of headline this situation is attracting.
I think the author makes some very calm and reasoned points and is attempting to start a discussion where he is open to being wrong.
I do NOT agree with all of the points he makes, but I think he is expressing his views in what is largely a respectful manner that is not, for the most part, racist or sexist in the way you might expect.
If he's wrong, and he IS wrong on some points, the proper reaction is to engage on these points because other people are thinking them too.
Encouraging diversity and inclusion means convincing and educating people at the margin like this guy, not virtue signaling and slamming them for not toeing the line.
Can confirm, the headlines/summary articles are generally sensationalist/clickbaity. The actual document is more evenhanded than breathless journalists would have you believe.
This guy has PHD. I don't think education will solve the issues he has. Just like education would not have resolved any issues Hitler had. The ideas he espouses are hateful. I think examining his psychic would be more useful.
38 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 81.4 ms ] threadLikely because it's the same old pseudoscientific Gish Gallop of claims that've been addressed a thousand times before.
https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2017/08/07/googles-...
Are you a woman? Does he review your code poorly? Did you possibly lose a promotion/bonus because of review scores? You've got a great case.
Is he your manager? WOW do you have a great case.
Your career is based on peer reviews and he is one of your reviewers? Google is in trouble.
I don't think it IS up for debate but no matter what what he did is a NIGHTMARE for Google internally, let alone the PR and recruiting disasters it has become.
Does anyone disagree that in a discrimination case where the author is a party his 'manifesto' would be a BIG problem? If you disagree, I'd love to hear why. (IANAL)
So then, we shouldn't tolerate his breach of the "peace treaty" of tolerance. He stepped over a line, and should be socially stigmatized for it. https://extranewsfeed.com/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1...
While not required, engaging with the manifesto's author openly might help convince others like him. He is certainly not alone in this mindset, and if it's easy to point out the faults in this line of reasoning, we should be able to correct this once and for all.
2. A sweeping variety of claims about the personality differences of coworkers at his own company and why these differences make it okay for him to discriminate.
Debunked here: https://www.fastcompany.com/40449759/according-to-employee-p...
3. A claim that there is "a bar" which is "lowered" for diversity candidates
Rather, diverse teams are demonstrably more effective than homogeneous teams: https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter, so even if by the author's chosen metrics "the bar" is "lowered", those are not good metrics. There is no single bar, when developing a cooperative group.
4. Various claims about unconscious biases not being the reason for the gender gap It is demonstrable that competence is evaluated with bias: https://www.theladders.com/p/22203/brunette-blonde-women-lea... (links to studies)
It is demonstrable that social factors hold women back more than men: http://www.aauw.org/research/why-so-few/
There's lots of other false claims, but I don't really want to do the digging. I've already engaged with this more than I think to be generally productive. And that's kind of the point: from a comfortable position where the author is not affected by the policies he argues, those who are must defend. For the author, it is a hypothetical. For the attacked, it is not. There is a fundamental asymmetry in any discourse here.
If they were so obviously true why aren't societies' and biologies' natural optimization mechanisms making them unmistakably and obviously true?
If it's really the case that women will do equal work for %X less money than men, why hasn't any organization capitalized on this by hiring only women and drastically reduced their costs?
But if word got out on this strategy thanks to you and your comrades tireless efforts then demand for this cheaper labor would go up and thus it's price would rise.
hmm... this claim seems counter to what we know about market economics.
If it's really the case that "diverse" teams(what's the definition of "diverse"?) are so superior to other configurations, then why aren't the Snaps, Bings, and HTCs of the world making it their number one priority to "diversify" and then demonstrating the shining obviousness of the "diverse" claim by successfully taking on the big bad "undiverse" market leaders.
Why do you think it is the purview of SJW brigades to bring these truths on the world when nature otherwise does a pretty good job of revealing her truths.
Maybe they aren't true.
There are plenty of reasons for your questions with answers ranging from historical oppression, lack of early education in STEM for minorities, class differences, and more. Not to mention that not all that is true is obvious. You also seem to be ignoring a lot of people in various communities who are trying to communicate all this, writing them off as having an agenda against yours.
"Well maybe its wrong because it's not how the world is currently" is a terrible argument. Go back in time X years and say this about things the way they were. It's not going to sound good.
You then assert that women will do equal work for less money than men and then make a bunch of inferences based on this, ignoring multiple faulty aspects of the assertion in the first place.
The fundamental disagreement we're having is whether society is biased in the first place. You are making a bunch of analyses and logical inferences about social behaviors of people, but all of the things you are analyzing are fundamentally embedded in a biased culture. By contrast, the people you're arguing against are trying to change the culture that you are making analyses in such that we can actually use analyses like yours effectively. We claim that right now, we cannot.
The evidence suggests that "there are fundamental social biases against certain groups resulting in their disadvantage" is an explanation that better reflects reality than biological pseudoscientific assertions. See several of my links above, for instance citing studies that indicate that men judge women's competence based on appearance.
Thus, seeking to eliminate those biases is a goal which will result in value.
Usage of “SJW” flags you as the personality archetype outlined in that thread.
Also, for goodness sake, stop saying "SJW." Whether you're trying to win hearts and minds or just trololol, it doesn't matter; you'll do better without it. Because when I read it, I just feel a little sad and embarrassed for the person writing it.
1). The original claim was:
>"On average, men and women biologically differ in many ways. These differences aren’t just socially constructed because: - They’re universal across human cultures
- They often have clear biological causes and links to prenatal testosterone
- Biological males that were castrated at birth and raised as females often still identify and act like males
- The underlying traits are highly heritable
- They’re exactly what we would predict from an evolutionary psychology perspective" (pg 3)
The claim is not that differences in each gender are universal across all cultures, only that, on average, there are biological differences that can be accounted for, without including social construction
The paper you linked also does not refute universal differences across human cultures, but suggest nurture may influence the behaviour of different genders. I believe the following:
"The underlying cultural differences between the Khasi and the Maasai offer room for speculation on environmental factors." (pg. 1656)
sums up the paper well.
2). There were three claims. You're going to need to quote the specific points where you believe he implied or directly said it was okay to discriminate on gender.
Here was the short section on it:
"Women, on average, have more : - Openness directed towards feelings and aesthetics rather than ideas. Women generally also have a stronger interest in people rather than things , relative to men (also interpreted as empathizing vs. systemizing ).
- These two differences in part explain why women relatively prefer jobs in social or artistic areas. More men may like coding because it requires systemizing and even within SWEs, comparatively more women work on front end, which deals with both people and aesthetics.
- Extraversion expressed as gregariousness rather than assertiveness. Also, higher agreeableness.
- This leads to women generally having a harder time negotiating salary, asking for raises, speaking up, and leading. Note that these are just average differences and there’s overlap between men and women, but this is seen solely as a women’s issue. This leads to exclusory programs like Stretch and swaths of men without support.
- Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance). This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs." (pg. 4)
That source is also not credible. It cites itself here: https://www.fastcompany.com/40448511/this-is-how-gender-diff..., and also states that there are personality differences between men and women in all the companies surveyed, except for google.
Here they are:
"- Male Facebook employees are 40% more likely to have an inflated sense of superiority compared to female employees.
- Female employees at Apple and Microsoft are 23% more prone to anxiety than their male counterparts.
- Men at Microsoft are 35% more ambitious and 34% more calculating than females.
- Male Uber employees are 32% more socially assertive than female employees.
- Google’s workforce displayed no major differences between male and female employees."
These align with the author's points. However, we don't have access to the data and it should not be taken as evidence. I'd also like to note that the only reference outside of the website itself, is a plug for a job board. There are eight links citing itself and one for Good&Co.
3). This is not addressing the point that the bar is lowered. ...
I find it rather boring and cliche.
Your job is not a debate club, nor does it exist as a platform for free speech.
Do real journalists still exist that can actually interview some of the parties involved, cut through the tweets and personality, and get both sides of this?
The reason there's such an uproar within Google is that the place is full of people with extensive training in mathematics and logic, who can easily spot when you submit a "proof" that is missing about 10,000 steps between the low level lemmas and the top level claims. Combine this with the fact that the claims are questioning the right of 1/3 of the company to exist there, and of course the reaction is going to be incredibly visceral. I honestly don't know how anyone could read more than a paragraph of that document without their bullshit detector exploding.
When somebody wraps it into a careful sandwich of "But have you considered testosterone? Just asking..." for 10 pages long, it feels like the author is seriously working hard to undermine your professional status, not just spouting on a drunk night.
I think the author makes some very calm and reasoned points and is attempting to start a discussion where he is open to being wrong.
I do NOT agree with all of the points he makes, but I think he is expressing his views in what is largely a respectful manner that is not, for the most part, racist or sexist in the way you might expect.
If he's wrong, and he IS wrong on some points, the proper reaction is to engage on these points because other people are thinking them too.
Encouraging diversity and inclusion means convincing and educating people at the margin like this guy, not virtue signaling and slamming them for not toeing the line.