This article is basically a "by liberals, for liberals" attempt to inspire some philosophical self-reflection. It kept coming to mind over these last few weeks, and especially last couple days, of stories stirring up so much rage, counter-rage, questionable arguments, emotional triggering, etc. I've always identified left but I'm definitely starting to feel confused by the actions of other leftys. I definitely don't identify with the right so overall I'm feeling tribeless as of late. Thought it worth reposting this.
I believe that "tribeless" politics is the only kind that can actually yield effective solutions, and that the tribal manifestions of political behavior are primarily focused on dividing into in-group/out-group and enriching the in-group while punishing the out-group.
this is basically the idea of the core compromise liberal political philosophy is meant to address:
> People talk about “liberalism” as if it’s just another word for capitalism, or libertarianism, or vague center-left-Democratic Clintonism. Liberalism is none of these things. Liberalism is a technology for preventing civil war. It was forged in the fires of Hell – the horrors of the endless seventeenth century religious wars. For a hundred years, Europe tore itself apart in some of the most brutal ways imaginable – until finally, from the burning wreckage, we drew forth this amazing piece of alien machinery. A machine that, when tuned just right, let people live together peacefully without doing the “kill people for being Protestant” thing. Popular historical strategies for dealing with differences have included: brutally enforced conformity, brutally efficient genocide, and making sure to keep the alien machine tuned really really carefully.
thanks for linking that. yes indeed Liberalism (capital L) is the best technology yet invented for preventing civil war, which is otherwise the more-or-less inevitable outcome of tribal politics.
the most important methodology of Liberalism is the cultural norm and moral importance of unfettered freedom of speech, expression, and association. The moral and normative importance of free speech cannot be understated. Losing this as a norm has eviscerated the left leaving them as noxious authoritarians sliding down the slope to Mao-ism.
> always identified left but I'm definitely starting to feel confused by the actions of other leftys. I definitely don't identify with the right so overall I'm feeling tribeless as of late.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Lifelong liberal here, and lately I feel the left has abandoned me. Whenever I call something into question I'm told that I'm a nazi, or that I'm "just not angry enough" and some dishes have to be broken for the cause, etc. I no longer feel part of the crowd, but I am certainly far from a right winger, so.. tribeless myself.
The left is turning into a fascist group. Ironically while waving the flag pretending to fight it. In fact, the liberal movement is turning into the type of populace the government has always wanted. No right to an opinion, speech and expression are heavily regulated, and we rely on the government for everything. We tell others exactly how to live their lives and punish them when they don't.
The fringe left, while the moderates remain silent. I've found it interesting that of late there has been a minor attempt to redefine fascism as a right-wing ideology so that fascists of the left can't be accused of fascism.
In 2007 I faced a lot of racism by right wing nut jobs because I am a brown man, athiest, who came here from the middle East. And yes, also detained at airports (had SSSS "printed" on my boarding pass perpetually ).
But in 2016, I got called a neo nazi islamophobe for daring to question question SPLC for putting Majid Nawaz and Ayan Hirsi Ali on their Target list! And I have watched with my jaw on the ground how Linda Sarsour is now a women's leader!
I have no space in the American political discourse. I know I hate the right wing... They did some horrible things to me because of where I come from and my skin color. But I now absolutely detest the left wing for calling me a neo Nazi(!!) islamophobe for criticizing actions of some of these left wing orgs. I feel only relief now claiming I am not left wing.
When I taught chess, we encouraged young players not to play "hope chess." Which means, making a move based on what you hope the opponent will do, not based on what you actually think is the best (or even a good) move. Playing a game based on logic, not based on hope, is both part of having a good strategy for any game and part of growing up. You can't just hope life's obstacles away.
And yet, by their actions and their rhetoric, "American liberals" seem to be implying that hoping that Trump gets impeached is, in fact, a viable political program, despite "rationally" knowing that the odds are against it, and that their denial of the reality is more likely to lead to 8 years of President Trump than 0 years.
The smugness is just a symptom of a much deeper childishness in the Democratic party.
It's the smugness that's the problem, right. It's not that the Republicans are trying to take healthcare away from my family and leave them to die just so a tiny percentage of them can get tax breaks. Or supporting policies that eliminate jobs so my family cannot find work (even the article admits that). No, that couldn't be the issue that's causing this divide. Their attack on the existence of my family and our ability to live and survive could not possibly be the reason why I see them and their followers as first cruel and evil and second as stupid. No, it can't be any of that. It must be my own smugness. What a bunch of bullshit.
In assessing the current poisonous political environment with respect to all parties...
“It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.”
-Terry Pratchett, "Jingo"
The smugness comes from the American left party moving right to try and capture some "center" that does not exist except in the professional and donor class.
The "left wing" party busting unions 60 years ago would be unthinkable. The left wing under FDR, not coincidentally the most popular US president in history, did not hatefully dismiss the poor working class as stupid, it gave them jobs and lifted them up. Rural areas voted Democrat. But we don't have the FDR Democratic party anymore, we have the (Bill) Clinton Democrats. Which is pro-deregulation, pro-incarceration, anti-union, pro-business, anti-worker, pro drug-war, pro-foreign war, pro-austerity (all policies which are bad for the poor, downtrodden, working class people) but they say the right things educated people believe about minorities and talk about how their policy is "evidence based" and boy if you cross them you'll sure face the full force of their weaponized smug.
Trump flanked Clinton from the left on trade. I'll let that sink in. He said he was going to fight for American workers and reject trade deals that helped big business. Clinton waffled about it (because she and the Democrats support it).
I love this article. The Democratic party has a whole lot of smug to offer; if you join them you can feel like you're in the cool kids club, the journalist's club, the wealthy professor's club, the doctor and lawyer and banker's club. You're on the "right" side of things. But beyond a sense of identitarian membership in the "expert, thinking, correct" class, it doesn't have much else to offer.
If you suggest a program to make public college and universities tuition free as it is done in many other countries, the "compromise" response from the democratic party is a means-tested boondoggle: first if you prove to a faceless government bureaucrat that you are poor and get all your paperwork together (which is humiliating and difficult) then tuition is waived. Which is completely out of touch with the attitudes of the poor; if you ever talk to a poor person, the difference between a handout they have to beg for by admitting their poverty and a universal program that everyone gets just for being an American (like roads, police, etc) is the difference between visceral humiliation they will refuse to face or hate using and something they can get behind.
Look at the new slogan: better skills, better jobs, better wages. Skills first of course, implying the under and unemployed are lacking skills. Implying skills retraining programs (and not job creation programs, like the new deal) actually work. Implying there are actually jobs for those workers once they get "skilled-up". Implying people who currently have good jobs and are wealthy are there primarily because they are skilled (there are plenty of pundits and opinion authors at famous newspapers and middle managers at large companies whose continued employment directly contradicts this theory). Implying a corporate tax cut is designed to help workers. On and on and on. The democratic party is smug towards workers because it considers itself above them. It isn't the party of the workers anymore, it's the party of the people who think workers are stupid.
19 comments
[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 58.1 ms ] threadFor completeness, here is last round of discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12906783
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/what-th...
I choose to remain tribeless.
> People talk about “liberalism” as if it’s just another word for capitalism, or libertarianism, or vague center-left-Democratic Clintonism. Liberalism is none of these things. Liberalism is a technology for preventing civil war. It was forged in the fires of Hell – the horrors of the endless seventeenth century religious wars. For a hundred years, Europe tore itself apart in some of the most brutal ways imaginable – until finally, from the burning wreckage, we drew forth this amazing piece of alien machinery. A machine that, when tuned just right, let people live together peacefully without doing the “kill people for being Protestant” thing. Popular historical strategies for dealing with differences have included: brutally enforced conformity, brutally efficient genocide, and making sure to keep the alien machine tuned really really carefully.
http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/21/against-murderism/
it's a terrible shame we seem to be forgetting this as liberalism simply becomes a tribe
the most important methodology of Liberalism is the cultural norm and moral importance of unfettered freedom of speech, expression, and association. The moral and normative importance of free speech cannot be understated. Losing this as a norm has eviscerated the left leaving them as noxious authoritarians sliding down the slope to Mao-ism.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Lifelong liberal here, and lately I feel the left has abandoned me. Whenever I call something into question I'm told that I'm a nazi, or that I'm "just not angry enough" and some dishes have to be broken for the cause, etc. I no longer feel part of the crowd, but I am certainly far from a right winger, so.. tribeless myself.
The left is turning into a fascist group. Ironically while waving the flag pretending to fight it. In fact, the liberal movement is turning into the type of populace the government has always wanted. No right to an opinion, speech and expression are heavily regulated, and we rely on the government for everything. We tell others exactly how to live their lives and punish them when they don't.
This wasn't what I signed up for.
The fringe left, while the moderates remain silent. I've found it interesting that of late there has been a minor attempt to redefine fascism as a right-wing ideology so that fascists of the left can't be accused of fascism.
I always thought it would be Republicans who would make 1984 a reality!
But in 2016, I got called a neo nazi islamophobe for daring to question question SPLC for putting Majid Nawaz and Ayan Hirsi Ali on their Target list! And I have watched with my jaw on the ground how Linda Sarsour is now a women's leader!
I have no space in the American political discourse. I know I hate the right wing... They did some horrible things to me because of where I come from and my skin color. But I now absolutely detest the left wing for calling me a neo Nazi(!!) islamophobe for criticizing actions of some of these left wing orgs. I feel only relief now claiming I am not left wing.
Maybe the current environment is broken for everyone who isn't crazy?
And yet, by their actions and their rhetoric, "American liberals" seem to be implying that hoping that Trump gets impeached is, in fact, a viable political program, despite "rationally" knowing that the odds are against it, and that their denial of the reality is more likely to lead to 8 years of President Trump than 0 years.
The smugness is just a symptom of a much deeper childishness in the Democratic party.
“It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.” -Terry Pratchett, "Jingo"
The "left wing" party busting unions 60 years ago would be unthinkable. The left wing under FDR, not coincidentally the most popular US president in history, did not hatefully dismiss the poor working class as stupid, it gave them jobs and lifted them up. Rural areas voted Democrat. But we don't have the FDR Democratic party anymore, we have the (Bill) Clinton Democrats. Which is pro-deregulation, pro-incarceration, anti-union, pro-business, anti-worker, pro drug-war, pro-foreign war, pro-austerity (all policies which are bad for the poor, downtrodden, working class people) but they say the right things educated people believe about minorities and talk about how their policy is "evidence based" and boy if you cross them you'll sure face the full force of their weaponized smug.
Trump flanked Clinton from the left on trade. I'll let that sink in. He said he was going to fight for American workers and reject trade deals that helped big business. Clinton waffled about it (because she and the Democrats support it).
I love this article. The Democratic party has a whole lot of smug to offer; if you join them you can feel like you're in the cool kids club, the journalist's club, the wealthy professor's club, the doctor and lawyer and banker's club. You're on the "right" side of things. But beyond a sense of identitarian membership in the "expert, thinking, correct" class, it doesn't have much else to offer.
If you suggest a program to make public college and universities tuition free as it is done in many other countries, the "compromise" response from the democratic party is a means-tested boondoggle: first if you prove to a faceless government bureaucrat that you are poor and get all your paperwork together (which is humiliating and difficult) then tuition is waived. Which is completely out of touch with the attitudes of the poor; if you ever talk to a poor person, the difference between a handout they have to beg for by admitting their poverty and a universal program that everyone gets just for being an American (like roads, police, etc) is the difference between visceral humiliation they will refuse to face or hate using and something they can get behind.
Look at the new slogan: better skills, better jobs, better wages. Skills first of course, implying the under and unemployed are lacking skills. Implying skills retraining programs (and not job creation programs, like the new deal) actually work. Implying there are actually jobs for those workers once they get "skilled-up". Implying people who currently have good jobs and are wealthy are there primarily because they are skilled (there are plenty of pundits and opinion authors at famous newspapers and middle managers at large companies whose continued employment directly contradicts this theory). Implying a corporate tax cut is designed to help workers. On and on and on. The democratic party is smug towards workers because it considers itself above them. It isn't the party of the workers anymore, it's the party of the people who think workers are stupid.
That's a beautiful phrase. I'm stealing it.
> It isn't the party of the workers anymore, it's the party of the people who think workers are stupid.
Very true.