Ask HN: Where does one find true entry level development jobs?

Universities usually have plenty of student developer jobs, if you know how / when to look.

Just a curiosity question: why COBOL? Since it's not mainstream anymore, this makes the process of finding a job way more complicated. As a person who has never programmed in it I'm simply curious what makes it worth all the extra trouble?

My experience is probably not typical, but I had an EE degree and more of a self taught programming background. When I graduated in 2009 the job market was pretty bad but took a job doing support for a telecom company. Within a few months I found a lot of what they were doing could be automated so I started writing scripts. Very quickly this became my full time job. I later leveraged that to get a more "normal" software dev position at another company, although sometimes I miss that job because I don't think I have ever written software since then that felt as directly impactful (saving many hours and $) lol. Also, COBOL is a very unusual language to be perusing in this day in age, but you might find something in sustaining type roles at big corps and government. I would think they would actually be quite eager to find new hires that were actually interested in maintaining old COBOL but I don't know.

That's probably not the answer you want, but do not hesitate to apply to jobs that ask for 0-5 years of experience, it's very often a nice to have and not a requirement. Worst case scenario is, they don't contact you (which will not happen either if you don't contact them ;) )

Your choice of COBOL is both strange (it's an old language that's not used for any new stuff) and potentially playing against you. Company looking for COBOL devs are often banks or big companies having huge critical systems that they're afraid to update to a more recent language. Thus, they may be looking for someone with some experience, considering how critical those softwares are. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't apply, I may totally be wrong or you may find something anyway!

> every "junior" job there wants 5+ years of experience.

That sentence is the important clue you need. If you are still a junior programmer after 5+ years experience, there is probably something wrong. You should mostly ignore the job requirements in terms of the years of experience they want.

There are even plenty of inside jokes around this. Jobs asking for 10 years javascript experience a couple of years after javascript was released!

Either they are looking for a senior programmer and are hoping to pay junior programmer rates (possible) or they are just putting their list of ideal requirements (more likely).

Sometimes the requirements aren't even written by IT staff, HR writes the requirements, and HR doesn't have a clue about IT.

Unfortunately, this means that it's very difficult to filter for "true" entry level jobs.

Applying to jobs is mostly a numbers game. Unless the job makes it clear that you need to be a senior developer, or a team lead, then just apply. Before traveling to an interview, see if you can set up an initial phone interview. If the interviewer doesn't do a great job of screening you, ask questions yourself to try to understand your responsibilities better. Will you be working under a senior programmer? That's a good sign that they aren't looking for someone who can work 100% independently and that they are willing to mentor you.

In my, outside of the valley experience, getting jobs is usually about talking to someone you know who know some one who knows someone. The sites where you spam your resume unannounced into a hiring inbox are not generally a high percent choice.

Do you have any local connections? The local development shops usually know a guy who knows a guy who has a start up who is hiring a few people. Typically, if you can find your way into a few local conferences, maker spaces, or gatherings generally there are a few companies who are hiring someone.

In a university setting, you are looking for professors who have some money to throw around of a one off project or know someone else who does. Think internships here. Typically colleges have a jobs/employment office specifically designed to find you jobs/coops/internships they are an excellent resource.

Is there a college near you? They often have career fairs where employers are looking to hire entry-level employees. It may take some digging to find these fairs, because they often aren't advertised off-campus.

networking events. (meetups & hackathons)

I have no formal academic credential in CS. I got my first job as a programmer off of Craigslist, and I recommend taking a look to everyone who is having trouble finding an entry level position. People/companies advertising there typically don't care too much about pedigree (this should not surprise, given the branding of Craigslist), and also usually aren't looking for rocket scientists.

I agree with the advice others have given re: years of experience: it's rarely a hard requirement.

Take a look at this list of software jobs for NYC[1]. I see three or four entry level positions just on the first page.

[1] https://newyork.craigslist.org/search/sof

The public sector. I got my first dev job at the local state university. They pay less than the private sector, thus making it harder for them to find solid talent. Put in a few years, and then jump ship once you've accumulated the requisite experience to no-longer be entry-level.

Not sure when the next one will be, but AFS http://www.afsvision.com/Careers/Career-Opportunities sporadically holds a Cobol training academy, where they pay individuals to learn Cobol for a few weeks, and generally hire a majority of them.

The exton, PA location is also close to Lancaster PA, so rural living is an option. I only use webservices with that group, so our corporate recruiter would probably have a better idea of what's available.

In 2008, I went to SCALE, which is a Southern Californian Linux/Open Software expo. I met someone from a large company that pays finding fees to people that bring in new talent; he was there hoping to make a couple bucks.

From that, I've got two suggestions. First, go to expos, meet-ups, etc. They sometimes have mini job fairs, or at least people that know about some open positions. Second, find someone that will advocate for you to be hired (greed and friendship are both good motives for that).

Usually around colleges and in large cities.

People who write job ads often times don't know much about the jobs, hence the keyword soup and outlandish timelines. You will do well to reach to hiring managers directly, making sure to explain why. I scan those emails for about 15 seconds each, most get discarded because the applicant couldn't be bothered to explain what attracted them to our company and how they are going to contribute. The latter part is most important, and can easily land you an interview.

Apply for jobs that it doesn't seem you qualify for. True entry level jobs in development know that the people that are coming straight out of school are going to require training/mentoring (hence the lower pay).

There are jobs out there that are looking for mid to senior level developers, but don't want to pay their prices, so they post entry/junior level jobs with mid/senior requirements. Screw those jobs.

Further, still, you have some jobs that are trying to do the aforementioned with the intent that no one applies, and they can use the evidence to justify an H1-B visa.

Even further, still, you have those jobs that are posted by recruiters that are at least two levels removed from any person with expertise in the field, so they don't know what the hell they're doing.

I broke into professional web dev with 0 experience with a combination of codecademy/codeschool, a good attitude, and very importantly be willing to work for minimum wage or near it at the beginning. (Actually I offered to work my first job for free but they denied for legal reasons and gave me something like $10 / hour)

I got a raise in my first job after about 2 months but what got me in the door was having zero salary requirements. From there I have averaged about a 40% salary increase per year for the last 5 years meaning I'm now over 6 figures so it didn't hurt my long term prospects at all.

There are really only a couple primary factors that employers judge you on and salary is the only one you are able to easily change so I think it's an obvious option in terms of trying to break into a new industry.

I was able to patch together around 2 years of paid development experience by the time I graduated college from various internships. I think it helped a lot in getting my first "real" position. If you're still in school I strongly recommend taking this route as entry level positions themselves are pretty hard to find.

Most jobs will list a bunch of bullet points as requirements.

If you can check off more than half, consider yourself well qualified.

Even things like "never programmed in swift, but have read some code examples, and understands the basic principles" can be enough check off "swift programming experience", especially if you already have mobile development experience from school or personal projects.