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Ask YC: MBP or Thinkpad

22 points by speedwagon ↗ HN
[Note: I've been reading here for a while but I haven't posted before, so I apologize for making my first post a self-centered request...]

I'm currently laptop shopping, and can either pick up Thinkpad T61 or a Macbook Pro (pre-Penryn refurb) for roughly the same price. I've always liked the Thinkpad keyboard and sturdiness, but a lot of people I respect seem to be migrating to Macs. It would be nice to buy a computer and not have to install a new OS right away, but I worry that I'll break the MBP.

I'm a college student and greenhorn programmer, so I'd love to hear your advice or experience.

63 comments

[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 123 ms ] thread
nickb
What will you use it for? Are you going to use it for development?

To me, the choice is simple: MBP runs OS X, other laptop doesn't. Since my whole toolchain depends on unix tools and TextMate, I really don't look at it as having a choice.

xirium
I've had four laptops: two Mac Powerbooks, one iBook, one IBM Thinkpad T43. The T43 was definitely the worst. With the T43, recovering from suspend was the most dicey and the build quality was junk. I hear the quality has declined since the division became Lenovo.
obelix
I have a MBP [pre penryn, btw, amazon sells it now for $1520 after rebate, which is what I bought, not refurbished].

I also have a Thinkpad T42. I use the ThinkPad for 'work' and MBP for personal coding.

I prefer the MBP for almost every aspect. It is not flawless, like the mouse acceleration with external mouse SUCKS and it does not play well in a docked situation [has its quirks].

My T42 has had 4 HD crashes in 2 years, a fan death. The Thinkpad feels very flimsy. MBP is built rock solid.

Finally having OS X [I do RoR on the MBP on *nix platforms] pretty much settles it. I used to run Ubuntu on the T42, but somehow the MBP feels complete for coding.

tptacek
Consider the Macbook, instead of the Pro; the extra thousand dollars doesn't really buy you that much. One of the best things about the current Apple portable line is that you can always buy the cheapest (at around $1100) and still get an excellent machine.
halo
I'd like to extend that principle to computer hardware in general.

Unless money really isn't a priority, or you're doing something which absolutely relies on top-end performance, buying high-end hardware is unnecessary and the cost will outweigh the surprisingly slight real-world advantage.

Buying mid-range is the sweet spot in terms of build quality, performance and price and even if it means upgrading 6 months earlier the savings are considerable.

neilc
If you're a professional developer, I think a slight improvement in productivity can be surprisingly valuable. When it comes to monitors, for example, I'm quite willing to pay the extra for a 30" monitor or for dual 24", as opposed to just buying mid-range (say, a single 22"). Of course, not all high-end equipment is worth the premium, but IMHO if you're spending a significant amount of time on the computer and using it to make your living, it's a false economy to not buy the best equipment.
whalliburton
Eh, I'm currently running with a $25 craigslisted sony trinitron 21" and an IBM thinkpad that I think I paid $200. Plus some old dell keyboard. Don't forget about the used market. The key is that I'm really only using it as a terminal into servers out there somewhere.

I consider myself a professional developer.

ambition
There's something to be said for the extra screen space afforded by the Macbook Pro over the Macbook. Whether it's worth it depends on how you use your computer.
tptacek
That's true, but that's what monitors are for. The times when you can't easily have a large external monitor are precisely the times when you don't want a big, unweildy laptop. I find the Macbook screen is a nice balance.
jrsims
What's the max display resolution a MacBook can handle when plugged into an external monitor?
edu
It's 1920 x 1200, just enough for a 23" Cinema HD.
icey
When I spend an extended amount of time hacking on my Macbook, I find myself missing the extra resolution. The width is fine, but the height is just lacking. Whether or not that's important is probably a personal preference, but I know I wish I had gone with the pro, just to get a handful of extra lines vertically.
webframp
shared graphics on the macbook might be a problem depending on your needs.
inovica
I've had a MacBook (now got a MacBook Air) and I'd go with the "Pro" version any day. I loved my 15" MacBook Pro and just couldn't get on anywhere near as much with the MacBook - sorry to those of you who love them. Thats my experience anyway
mattmaroon
I can tell you that the Thinkpads are better built and far more reliable. Even most Macbook owners I know who've had both will agree. We had 3 newer MBPs and a 1 yr old Lenovo X60 for 6 months in California. It seemed like the Macs were in and out of the shop constantly, experiencing all sorts of weird problems. Like most Apple products, the hardware is of mediocre quality and drastically overpriced, and the service is atrocious.

But you don't buy Apple comps for the hardware. If you like OSX better (and if you're programming, you most likely will) get a Macbook. Even with the troubles we had, our 3 programmers all agreed that they would not have switched back to Windows. We joked that we'd just keep an extra MBP on hand at all times, and honestly it's not such a bad idea.

Either way though I'd never buy a MBP refurb. That's just asking for trouble.

brk
Not me. Current crop of Thinkpads I've seen (about 2 dozen or so) have been utter crap. Multiple hard drive failures, cheap construction, flaky as hell.

I've used MBP and MB and prefer both over current gen Lenovos.

mariorz
You know there is also this new OS called Linux. Reportedly works great on apple hardware too... And also, yes, many people buy apple machines for the hardware.
mattmaroon
If using Linux, I'd recommend the Lenovo hands down. The hardware is clearly superior and significantly cheaper.
mariorz
I'd recommend a macbook for linux, precisely for the superior hardware to price ratio, but many aspects of how you define superiority come down to personal preference I guess. My point only was that lenovo+windows and mac+osx aren't the only choices at all. In fact, I may be mistaken, but I think speedwagon wasn't even considering windows as an option.
speedwagon
That's correct - the first thing I would do with the Thinkpad is install Ubuntu, so it's more of a hardware question for me.
etal
If you're open to different operating systems, and a student, it sounds like you could tolerate a not-so-premium setup if it came to that. I'm guessing you're not really a gamer, and probably not doing extreme graphics or video work. In that case, a Thinkpad or MBP might be overkill. Alternatives:

1. Look for cheaper Linux laptops from Dell or HP. I get the feeling that the laptop as we know it is going to change significantly within the next couple of years, at the very least with solid-state hard drives, so why bother with a top-of-the-line machine right now? And, you'll probably be making a lot more money once you're out of school, so you'll be tempted to splurge then anyway.

2. Get one of these newfangled ultra-portables like the Asus eeePC or Everex Cloudbook. (I've been eying the Cloudbook myself.) If this programming thing becomes a habit for you then you might also develop the habit of collecting computers. In that case you could have a "serious" (but still semi-cheap) desktop computer at home, with a decent-sized display and hard drive, do most of your work on it, and also use it as a server of some sort in your home. The ultra-portable would be for, ya know, laptop stuff.

(Disclaimer: I'm laughably frugal, and my company also supplies me with a real laptop -- a Thinkpad R61 -- which I like.)

Zak
Unless you plan on replacing your laptop regularly or not taking it places, buying an HP or Dell may not be the most frugal decision. Apples and Thinkpads have metal frames that keep internal components from flexing and breaking solder joints[0]. Dells, HPs and most other cheaper laptops don't. I don't have any hard data for it, but I think laptops with frames last longer. I know several people who's computational needs aren't demanding who are still using iBooks and Thinkpads made in 2000.

[0] iBooks seem to break the BGAs on their video chips a lot anyway, but I don't think any new Apples have that problem.

mattmaroon
I don't understand how you could ever recommend a macbook for "hardware to price ratio". They usually cost at least 50% more than a Lenovo, and maybe my experiences and those of my friends have been unusual, but they generally seem to be pretty poor. Battery life is atrocious, all sorts of display problems, same hard drive problems that every OEM has. Lap-burning heat. Ridiculously expensive power bricks. Poor wi-fi antenna (my Lenovo's antenna is sickeningly good.)

I gotta give them credit though, their magnetic power cord connector is nice. I haven't gotten to play with the multitouch pad either, that might be nice.

vlad
None of those are true, except that the magnetic power cord connector truly is sweet. I get 4-5 hours of battery time, the wireless range is good, the Macbook Pro is quieter than the Lenovo, it gets as hot as any other laptop, and saying the Macbook Pro has the same "hard drive problems everybody else has" is a pointless argument.
mariorz
thank you for that completely anecdotal evaluation of apple's hardware. My personal experience has been different, however, unless you have some kind of defects-per-million data or some such, I'll stick with what I said, it mostly comes down to personal preference. Anyway I didn't intend to get into a useless argument. My point, as I've stated before, was that you seemed to be not considering a decent OS to go with the thinkpad
mattmaroon
Ha, yeah, this subject is as close to religion as you get here. I more than anything wanted to see how far I'd get down-modded for saying something bad about Apple. Even though I think it's true (Apple's hardware really is pretty poor and expensive) based on what I'd consider a large anecdotal sample size, and just using each for a little bit, I was just curious to see what happened. I'm shocked to still be in the positive.
mariorz
I don't see why most of the people here would have any problem criticizing apple. Like say, on all their evil attempts at music industry domination, restrictive apis and what not. We do admit they make some sexy hardware tough.
mattmaroon
You're applying logic to religion. It just doesn't work that way.
brk
My MB consistently gets a wifi signal in an office building where all the Lenovos seem to need an Ethernet tether once they get 6 inches away from the prime areas.

Not sure what display problems you refer to (honestly curious), both my MBP and MB seem to have displays as good as any other laptop. My other hobby is digital photography (Canon EOS5D, L glass, etc.), so I'm working with Aperture or Photoshop a lot, the only "display" issues I'd note is that the laptop LCDs don't calibrate as nicely as my external Apple cinema displays.

cturner
> but many aspects of how you define superiority come down > to personal preference I guess

If you get a macbook then you don't have easy access to right or middle mouse buttons on the standard hardware. This sucks for linux. My experience of configuring X to hack keyboard buttons into being extra mouse buttons has been mixed, and I'd recommend thinking long and hard about buying an Apple for linux purposes. Sure, you can get an external mouse, but you could also just get a thinkpad.

vlad
I disagree. I have the latest Lenovo T61 14 inch widescreen as well as the latest Macbook Pro 15 inch. The Lenovo has crashed about 4 or 5 times over the past few weeks when putting it in or taking it out of its official docking station.

The Macbook Pro is incredible. I find the backlit keys and the excellent screen and keyboard are more useful or better than the little light, crappy screen, and good keyboard on the Lenovo.

The regular Macbook is actually a terrible choice. Although the built-in motherboard video X3100 chipset can run Half-Life 2 in multiplayer pretty well on Windows, the drivers on the Mac make that video card as useless as the one in laptops from 2 years ago. I don't play video games anymore, but it might help your decision to know that video on the Macbook is already outdated more than any other Core2Duo laptop on the market right now running Windows.

axod
Sorry, but why would you want to run Half-Life 2? Are you insane? There's work to be done.
jeremiah
Matt Maroon's comment is more anecdotal than factual. Apple consistently gets the highest marks in unbiased studies (Consumer Reports) for both the quality of its hardware, customer service and support.

To counter his anecdotal view I'll add mine; I also own a number of Macs and while I had problems with my 1400cs I have not had problems with my refurbished PowerBook. In fact, I dropped it from a meter's height and it is still performing admirably.

rms
OSX is great, but you can get a really powerful new Thinkpad with SUSE enterprise preinstalled for a good price. An effectively maxed out Thinkpad with 4 gigs of RAM and discrete graphics is $1200.

I've been using a Thinkpad X41 tablet as my laptop for a while. Nothing important has broken, but some non reinforced plastic has broken/is breaking off, like the door to the PC card slot. The build quality is still better than all other Windows laptops, which is really sad.

rms
I should probably note that most people seem to treat their laptops better than I do. I've dropped it several times, splashed it with liquids, etc. So it's holding together pretty well, all things considered. It's old enough that it is still branded IBM, it may be true that the build quality has gotten worse over time.
stcredzero
I'm still using a G4 Powerbook. The aluminum mac laptops are a pain to disassemble. The MacBook Pros are improved over the Powerbooks, but you're still dealing with lots of little jeweler's screws. If that's not an issue, then I think Mac laptops are great. Also, do not drop them on their hinges. That won't necessarily break them, but they will get distorted and not close in exactly the same way again.

I also own an old Thinkpad T22. I like them as no-nonsense laptops that run Linux well. But if you want something that is just put together and just works, and ultimate ruggedness and graphics card speed is not a priority, I recommend the Mac.

hassy
I heard that more screws is better in laptops, though I'm not sure why.

I'm still using a 12" Powerbook as my laptop too. I've had it for 3 years now, and don't have a single complaint. I love how it fits into pretty much any bag, and how the battery lasts 3 to 5 hours.

stcredzero
Yeah, the design aspect is great. The thing looks great, it fits anywhere, but if you need to repair/upgrade the thing, it's a major pain!
sashas
I was looking at both types of computers as well: I chose the MBP (pre-penryn). I made the switch to Mac but also have VMWare fusion to run XP VM's for my java developing (work) and Vista (from my boot camp partition). I feel like I definitely made the right decision--I have a hassle-free computer (OS X is amazing) and the option to run windows when I need to (IBM Rational Java development for work). The T61 is one solid computer--but having to muck around with Linux is a pain and Windows Vista/XP, though decent, just aren't as versatile as OS X (of course this is based on my experience). Plus, you get to work in an environment with the option to use a Unix Terminal (no need to mention MS's Unix Terminal here...). The experience you'll get learning and using Unix commands for your development is invaluable.
initself
I like the T43 better than the T60p I have, but of course the specs aren't as good. There is something more straightforward about it. I've gotten refurbished models that have never let me down.
vlad
1) Join Apple's Student Dev Program for $99.

2) Buy a Macbook Pro 15 inch glossy screen Penryn for $1599 from the Dev Store, with an upgrade to the 250GB drive.

3) Buy VMWare Fusion for $39 from Studica.com.

4) Buy 4GB of memory for $99 from Crucial.com.

5) Install OS X, Windows, and Linux into VMWare Fusion and break the operating systems as much as you want.

Total cost for a mobile machine you can take with you so you can break it as often as you want: about 2,000 after taxes. I'll have all the steps up (including other things to install) at some point for everybody to see.

elai
All of that gives you an extra $100 discount on the MBP vs. the normal student discount. If your willing to wait, there's usually a special extra promotion (like a free ipod nano in the last one) for students starting around june/july to sept. In the iPod nano case, if you sell it, you can get a $150 extra discount. Wait for the student promo and see what it is before you do what this guy says. (Also newegg.com or ncix.com is a better deal than crucial)
vlad
If you get the 17inch high resolution Macbook Pro or the Mac Pro, you're talking about savings of $400-$500 by my estimate.
jeremiah
Vlad's recipe is a good one. It might be more than you want to pay, but it is an excellent investment in learning about operating systems. Nowadays computing is more heterogeneous than ever with virtualization becoming more and more important. If you follow Vlad's advice you will be ahead of the game, learn important new technologies, and somewhat future-proof your investment.
DocSavage
6) Join Microsoft DreamSpark and get the following for free because you're a student: Visual Studio 2008 Professional, Windows Server 2003, MSoft Expression Studio, XNA Game Studio (https://downloads.channel8.msdn.com/). Fill out your Windows VM with the dev tools.
vlad
That is actually one of the steps. :) But I've been waiting for "instant approval" from JourneyEd for two weeks now for Microsoft's DreamSpark program.
kjell
I can't speak to thinkpads, but I've had two silvery mac laptops: first a 12" powerbook and now a 15" MBP. Both have treated me exceedingly well. The one problem I've had was that I managed to knock the shift key off of the powerbook keyboard one time. It was a bitch to get back on properly, but once I did, it was good as new and stayed put. The 12" is still going strong—I passed it off to my sister after upgrading. The 15er is a bit big and a bit heavy for my tastes, but the extra screen space is worth it.

My only testimony towards the durability of my macbook pro is this. I bike everywhere, and two times now I've fallen with the MBP in my backpack and knocked it with some force against the ground. The remainder of those rides I'm always sure that the $2000+ hunk of aluminum in my bag will be ruined, but when I get where I'm going and pull it out, it works like a champ.

speedwagon
This is good to know - I also commute by bike, hence my concern about build quality.

Incidentally, I'm overwhelmed by the response rate to my question. I posted it two hours ago, expecting to be ignored as a newcomer, and went off to do some reading. I can't thank everyone enough for the feedback, although I'm still on the fence.

jrsims
Yeah, I'm noticing a pretty even split between the MB/MBP vs ThinkPad. Guess that means you can't go wrong either way unless the type of work you'll be doing depends on an OS-specific feature.

For example: Consider what mobile platforms you will be developing for. If that includes iPhone, an MB/MBP will be essential (iPhone is probably not a market any of us want to ignore at this point).

apathy
Get a padded sleeve for your laptop. I paid $9 for a Timbuk2 sleeve at REI on sale. I've taken some whoppers on my bike with my laptops in my messenger bag (enough to put me in the hospital) and the sleeves seem to do a really good job of protecting them.

If you are in the market for a new messenger bag, the re:Load people have a particularly thick sleeve that they used to offer at a discount when you bought one of their bags. (which rule)

thrill
After years of using Thinkpads of various types myself, for my son's college work I got him an HP 2710p convertible tablet, and it has worked very well for him (I didn't like the Thinkpad tablet at all) - I'm thinking of getting a second HP tablet for myself to run Ubuntu on it (I use that exclusively these days on half a dozen different servers and notebooks around here (including my still going strong old A20P), after using several other distros over the last decade). We had gotten him a Motion Computing tablet, but were quite disappointed, and not that surprised nor unhappy when it broke a few days after the warranty expired. Anyway, the HP tablet is fairly nice and might be a third option for you.
neilc
Have you or your son used the HP tablet with Linux?

A tablet seems nice, but not nice enough to justify using XP or Vista...

thrill
Not yet. Even with the slowness of Vista the (convertible) tablet is an awfully handy device frequently enough to be worth the premium. When he returns this summer we're going to install Ubuntu and, if needed, setup XP (or maybe Vista) in Virtualbox (which works beautifully with XP for my single need of checking web development renderings with IE - Virtualbox is untested by me with Vista). There are Onenote-like programs for Linux these day, but I haven't tried them.
apathy
What you said -- you're going to install Ubuntu -- leads me to believe that the Thinkpad will provide better value. I have serious trouble using any laptop without a Thinkpoint anymore, because I hate moving my hands away from typing position.

Plus, you can always get parts to repair the Thinkpads on eBay. It's harder and more expensive to repair a Macbook. Having rebuilt both types, I'd stick with the Thinkpad, and that in fact is exactly what I do -- get used Thinkpads that other people are discarding, fix them, and use them. When I've completely destroyed a laptop, I sell it for parts on eBay, and start looking for a new one to fix.

I haven't paid for a computer in 10 years, as a result.

However, it occurs to me that this has insulated me from the Lenovo takeover. I'm pecking on an X31 right now. It's great. Took some fussing to get it to hibernate in Linux, but now it works fine. I don't know if the newer Lenovo models are as reliable as the old IBM warhorses.

tx
I have ThinkPad T61, MBP and a regular Macbook. For programmers Linux running on a ThinkPad is the thing to get. OS X isn't nowhere close to Linux if you're a coder.
madsgormlarsen
Mac users are often said to be religious about their choice of computer, but they just love the product they have.

I love my Mac :-)

morbidkk
what about sony vaio? vaio has very nice keypad and excellent battery life.
Zak
I was faced with this decision about a year ago. I went with the Thinkpad in large part because of the pointing device; I love the trackpoint. I've also disassembled quite a few Powerbooks, iBooks and Thinkpads and found Thinkpads to be less fragile in general. Pinched video cables and bad BGAs seem to be pretty common on the Macs, but it's easier to damage the outer case on a Thinkpad.

Both are fine laptops, and much better made than the average machine. You won't go wrong either way.

bluelu
When I bought my first laptop with a university discount, I could only buy thinkpads and was a little worried because it had no touchpad at all. Luckely, I bought one anyway. The trackpoint is awesome, like the thinkpad's themselves.

I only had to replace one motherboard once (2 days until I got hte motherboard back) on an old R32. It still works today, even though it has now 5 years. As does a T42 and T60 which are used daily.

brent
t61. Mine has been rock solid. I run ubuntu and everything works great. This is my second thinkpad (last one was ~4 yrs ago). I have not had any of the issues anyone has listed about thinkpads with either one. Mine have worked like a champ. That said, it won't pick up chicks like the Macs ;-) <see Guy Kawasaki's Air article>.
AF
Please be smart and go with the ThinkPad (parcticularly a T61p).

Right now they have a 25% off sale on them, not to mention you can get another 5% off if you have a Visa card, or are a student, or a number of other things. In addition to this there are usually other coupons you can use.

I was able to purchase a T61p (more or less the same specs as a Macbook Pro, including the same graphics card (same internally) for $1250 (this includes tax). I got that price because the discount ended up being some 40% or more.

To get about the same Macbook Pro would cost me another $400 at the very least, closer to $500, and I don't think that's including the upgrades I'd have to make to the Pro to get certain features (like a 7200 RPM HD).

I received the ThinkPad several weeks ago. It is very sturdy, and so far I have really liked it. I've had quality issues with Macs before, but I see no problem with this laptop.

If you want to save at least $500 for an equivalent machine and you don't need OS X or some other Mac-specific item, I would definitely recommend looking into the T61p.