Yes, test animals first, and then find volunteers who are willing to be tested without being paid. Blood transfusion has less ethical issues than something like an organ transplant, since there's no permanent effects on the donor.
I'm pretty confident that donors won't touch this with a ten foot pole unless they're paid.
The only reason why I'm willing to part with my supposedly-precious O- blood is because I'm reasonably confident that the blood will be going to people who actually need it. Otherwise-healthy old people using my blood as some kind of sick fountain of youth completely throws that dynamic out of the window. That's my blood, and I will be paid for both the blood itself and the time out of my day, and I will be paid very handsomely, or the old rich people will be out of luck.
TLDR: A test using mice doing a transfusion of blood from younger->older showed signs of rejuvenation. It's still going through clinical trials for humans. An SF startup is running such a trial with 100 people, each of whom paid $8k.
+ there are critics/skeptics of it's scientific viability as well as the costs considering it's unproven.
Key quote:
> “There's just no clinical evidence [that the treatment will be beneficial],” argues Tony Wyss-Coray, the Stanford neuroscientist behind a key 2014 mice parabiosis study. For one thing, Karmazin’s trial does not use a placebo control group and participants can be as young as 35.
At age 52 I can honestly say I don't feel more tired or generally any worse in any way than I did when I was 16. My eyes are about the only thing that has noticeably aged. I'm a bit far sighted at this point
Do you still exercise? I personally think that the biggest part of feeling more tired with aging is that people just stop exercising. Not exercising less, just completely stopping, because you get caught in a cycle of being too tired from work/commuting to exercise, and having less energy due to a lack of exercise.
The only study here is one in how to seperate people from $8k with the promise of near immortality from blood that was taken under the pretense of helping people who actually need it.
I read Dan Lyon's book "Disrupted" about the time he spent with HubSpot before becoming a writer for Silicon Valley. He says that there were times where he would pitch something that he actually saw or happened to him, and the other writers would shoot it down because it just didn't seem realistic.
"Researchers typically take tissue samples from a fetus that has been aborted (under conditions permitted by law) and grow cells from the tissue in Petri dishes.
"Many of the uses of fetal tissue — and much of the debate — are not new. "It's just that the public is finding out about it," said Insoo Hyun, associate professor of bioethics at Case Western Reserve University.
"The super rich"? You mean this as a class of people? I have a lot of money, but I'm not doing it, so I'm probably not on the "super rich" class, right?
Just because an article title mentions the "super rich", don't feel the need to inject yourself into the discussion by waving your money around and saying that this doesn't apply to you. Nobody cares.
The aim is to see whether or not this can usefully change the balance of signaling molecules to, say, spur greater stem cell activity. There has been a trial in Alzheimer's patients, but some signs in animal studies that transfusions from young to old don't do much. It seems useful to speed up the process of determining whether or not transfusions are an interesting line of research, or something that only looked promising. That means more patients and larger trial populations, which Ambrosia is working on.
These transfusion initiatives are one of a number of outgrowths of parabiosis research in mice. Heterochronic parabiosis is the name given to connecting the circulatory systems of an old and a young individual. The older mouse shows a modest rejuvenation in a number of measures of aging, and the younger mouse shows some greater signs of aging - though most of the focus here has been on the old mouse. In recent years this technique has been used to search for potentially actionable differences in levels of specific signal molecules circulating in the bloodstream. For example, stem cell activity declines with aging, and this is likely governed by signaling processes. If levels of the most relevant molecules could be adjusted in old individuals, it might be possible to produce benefits that look quite similar to those of stem cell therapies: increased regeneration and tissue maintenance. This class of approach puts damaged, aged cells back to work, and does little to address causes of aging based on accumulation of metabolic waste, such as cross-links that stiffen blood vessels, but to the degree that it can improve health it is probably worthy of further investigation in the same way as stem cell therapy was back in the day.
One potential shortcut to the production of therapies is to perform transfusions: deliver young blood or young plasma to old individuals. I call this a potential shortcut because it really is still very uncertain as to (a) whether or not the whole process works in humans anywhere near as well as it works in mice, and (b) whether or not transfusions will recapture the effects of parabiosis to a useful degree. The evidence in mice suggests so far that it may not. It is possible to paint all sorts of scenarios in which the fact that old and young cells are in contact, feeding signals to one another in a feedback loop, is necessary to produce beneficial changes in the old individual. It is also possible to imagine signals with a short half-life, that won't be recaptured in transfusions, or changes in the old environment that are based on an increased level of specific signal molecules. That increased level won't be changed in the slightest by the arrival of some amount of young blood plasma. Only reduced levels are likely to be impacted that way.
In any case, testing and perhaps ruling out the fast path of transfusions seems like a fair plan. If it works, it will draw in more funding to build the better option of manipulating signal molecule levels directly. It if doesn't work, that result will direct scientists to focus on more productive lines of research and development. There is some grumbling from the expected quarters over the structuring of this present initiative by Ambrosia, but getting it done is better than not getting it done. The data will be useful in the sense that only sizable effects are interesting, and thus before and after data for participants will be convincing. Marginal effects, of the sort in which it would have been useful to have a control group to establish whether or not any benefits actually resulted, would mean that this probably isn't worth further exploration. Still, this well demonstrates the fact that many scientists who work within the heavily regulated, slow, and repressive system of medical development really don't like it when people try to get things done more rapidly and more inventively. To the extent that it closes down productive avenues, this is a dangerous attitude.
Recent commentary suggests that none of the resu...
Over time, the demand for young blood continued to grow but there was a stubbornly limited supply. A new batch of YCombinator "blood startups" aimed to disrupt the industry by supplying devices that made it more convenient to infuse blood directly into your bloodstream.
One company based in Menlo Park, dracul.ai, developed a set of titanium prosthetic fangs that would eliminate the need for an expensive IV procedure and hospital visit. Instead, the blood was extracted directly into the fangs, which were than purified by nanotubes and fed directly into users' bloodstreams.
Scattered reports came out that wealthy users were luring young candidates to their large Woodsite and Atherton estates and extracting blood from victicms, without consent.
Company founder (who simply goes by monicker "Vlad") vehemently denies such allegations.
My favorite part of the original Dracula is all of the weird shit that starts happening just because Dracula's in the neighborhood. Rat infestations, mysterious plagues, the madmen in the asylum getting frisky...
Obviously, this could all translate perfectly into a story of late capitalist vampires living in a condo-converted church in the mission...
Yes. What's wrong with paying people for their blood? It sounds gross, but if it works, and all parties are informed and consent, what's wrong with it?
>all parties are informed and consent, what is wrong with it?
It's exploitation. First if teenagers are actually doing this (under 18 anyway) they can't legally consent to this. Nevertheless, the only thing they are informed of is they don't have money and they want it. It's like asking what's wrong with child prostitution as long as the children are informed and consent.
You think the class of people engaging in this practice would continue if they were limited to using their own children? We aren't exactly talking about a last resort of donating an organ to keep someone alive.
Let's assume the children in question are old enough to give meaningful consent - otherwise, I agree there is a problem. I don't think the decision to have your blood drawn is as impactful as consenting to sex - sex has psychological and physiological implications that are not considerations with getting blood drawn.
This isn't really exploitation, they understand what they give up, blood and time, and what they get - money. This seems more like a trade. Do you think that any trade between two parties where one has considerably more wealth than the other is exploitation?
This is one among many signs that we (as a species) have reached a point where we no longer need money as a means to accumulate wealth. We need money as a means to moderate consumption. The ideas for how to spend extraordinary wealth will only continue to get weirder.
I don't know how this got ethics approval. Doing a trial in 600 people without a placebo or randomisation when you are using a potentially harmful treatment like transfusion is ridiculous.
Of course, they aren't interested in proving whether it actually works. They will report that patients experienced subjective benefits and then engineer some surrogate blood biomarker of youth that 'improves' after transfusion. Then they will sell a transfusion product for at least the next 10-20 years it will take a proper trial to be conducted by someone else.
60 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 127 ms ] threadWhat can be done, will be done. Too much to win with military budgets here, that's only what hits the more and more strongly regulated public news.
Edit: My sentiment is to no trust any goverment denying mass experiments. Too much insanity in the politic, bureaucratic power lust.
I wonder if they knew this...
Can we ethically ask if it does work?
The only reason why I'm willing to part with my supposedly-precious O- blood is because I'm reasonably confident that the blood will be going to people who actually need it. Otherwise-healthy old people using my blood as some kind of sick fountain of youth completely throws that dynamic out of the window. That's my blood, and I will be paid for both the blood itself and the time out of my day, and I will be paid very handsomely, or the old rich people will be out of luck.
This is especially true during clinical trials.
+ there are critics/skeptics of it's scientific viability as well as the costs considering it's unproven.
Key quote:
> “There's just no clinical evidence [that the treatment will be beneficial],” argues Tony Wyss-Coray, the Stanford neuroscientist behind a key 2014 mice parabiosis study. For one thing, Karmazin’s trial does not use a placebo control group and participants can be as young as 35.
"He adds that because patients are paying it wouldn't be fair to give anyone a placebo."
The only study here is one in how to seperate people from $8k with the promise of near immortality from blood that was taken under the pretense of helping people who actually need it.
Next question.
"Many of the uses of fetal tissue — and much of the debate — are not new. "It's just that the public is finding out about it," said Insoo Hyun, associate professor of bioethics at Case Western Reserve University.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/17/health/fetal-tissue-explainer/...
These transfusion initiatives are one of a number of outgrowths of parabiosis research in mice. Heterochronic parabiosis is the name given to connecting the circulatory systems of an old and a young individual. The older mouse shows a modest rejuvenation in a number of measures of aging, and the younger mouse shows some greater signs of aging - though most of the focus here has been on the old mouse. In recent years this technique has been used to search for potentially actionable differences in levels of specific signal molecules circulating in the bloodstream. For example, stem cell activity declines with aging, and this is likely governed by signaling processes. If levels of the most relevant molecules could be adjusted in old individuals, it might be possible to produce benefits that look quite similar to those of stem cell therapies: increased regeneration and tissue maintenance. This class of approach puts damaged, aged cells back to work, and does little to address causes of aging based on accumulation of metabolic waste, such as cross-links that stiffen blood vessels, but to the degree that it can improve health it is probably worthy of further investigation in the same way as stem cell therapy was back in the day.
One potential shortcut to the production of therapies is to perform transfusions: deliver young blood or young plasma to old individuals. I call this a potential shortcut because it really is still very uncertain as to (a) whether or not the whole process works in humans anywhere near as well as it works in mice, and (b) whether or not transfusions will recapture the effects of parabiosis to a useful degree. The evidence in mice suggests so far that it may not. It is possible to paint all sorts of scenarios in which the fact that old and young cells are in contact, feeding signals to one another in a feedback loop, is necessary to produce beneficial changes in the old individual. It is also possible to imagine signals with a short half-life, that won't be recaptured in transfusions, or changes in the old environment that are based on an increased level of specific signal molecules. That increased level won't be changed in the slightest by the arrival of some amount of young blood plasma. Only reduced levels are likely to be impacted that way.
In any case, testing and perhaps ruling out the fast path of transfusions seems like a fair plan. If it works, it will draw in more funding to build the better option of manipulating signal molecule levels directly. It if doesn't work, that result will direct scientists to focus on more productive lines of research and development. There is some grumbling from the expected quarters over the structuring of this present initiative by Ambrosia, but getting it done is better than not getting it done. The data will be useful in the sense that only sizable effects are interesting, and thus before and after data for participants will be convincing. Marginal effects, of the sort in which it would have been useful to have a control group to establish whether or not any benefits actually resulted, would mean that this probably isn't worth further exploration. Still, this well demonstrates the fact that many scientists who work within the heavily regulated, slow, and repressive system of medical development really don't like it when people try to get things done more rapidly and more inventively. To the extent that it closes down productive avenues, this is a dangerous attitude.
Recent commentary suggests that none of the resu...
Over time, the demand for young blood continued to grow but there was a stubbornly limited supply. A new batch of YCombinator "blood startups" aimed to disrupt the industry by supplying devices that made it more convenient to infuse blood directly into your bloodstream.
One company based in Menlo Park, dracul.ai, developed a set of titanium prosthetic fangs that would eliminate the need for an expensive IV procedure and hospital visit. Instead, the blood was extracted directly into the fangs, which were than purified by nanotubes and fed directly into users' bloodstreams.
Scattered reports came out that wealthy users were luring young candidates to their large Woodsite and Atherton estates and extracting blood from victicms, without consent.
Company founder (who simply goes by monicker "Vlad") vehemently denies such allegations.
Obviously, this could all translate perfectly into a story of late capitalist vampires living in a condo-converted church in the mission...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_substitute
It's exploitation. First if teenagers are actually doing this (under 18 anyway) they can't legally consent to this. Nevertheless, the only thing they are informed of is they don't have money and they want it. It's like asking what's wrong with child prostitution as long as the children are informed and consent.
You think the class of people engaging in this practice would continue if they were limited to using their own children? We aren't exactly talking about a last resort of donating an organ to keep someone alive.
This isn't really exploitation, they understand what they give up, blood and time, and what they get - money. This seems more like a trade. Do you think that any trade between two parties where one has considerably more wealth than the other is exploitation?
We've all seen marketing speak, but wow :)
This guy is saying this is pretty close to immortality.
He has no idea what he is talking about, what a scam artist.
I feel a business opportunity for enterprising girls.
EDIT: Why the flagged? I was just making fun of the situation.
Of course, they aren't interested in proving whether it actually works. They will report that patients experienced subjective benefits and then engineer some surrogate blood biomarker of youth that 'improves' after transfusion. Then they will sell a transfusion product for at least the next 10-20 years it will take a proper trial to be conducted by someone else.