Frankly, most companies would probably do the same thing. You wouldn't want a highly negative thread in your forums. That might make potential customers question their zeal and wait for the next model before they make their purchase. Definitely not something you want if you're in the business of releasing new phones every year or so.
I'm sure that they will respond publicly to this. They already did, and they might very well change direction. But it's not too reasonable to expect a whole organization to do an about face within 24 hours of a bad review from CR.
Apple likes to shoot first and ask questions later. They banned a number of apps and only reversed the ruling after PR problems. So we'll see if this happens.
Admittedly, I remember being surprised both when Apple opened up ratings/reviews for its own products on store.apple.com, and also when their apps on the App Store followed all of the same rules as 3rd party apps. Both instances seemed atypical for a company that loathes imperfection, or the appearance thereof.
So? Apple is a company that tries to make money. It's not a goverment funded organisation that is founded to serve its users with a fair and allround content.
If Apple decides to delete those threads than they should be able to do so.
It depends on what sort of image the company wants to uphold. Do they want to be the company that goes out of their way to protect the rights of their customers with some less than perfect products, or do they want to be the company with perfect products that uses its customers as a means to its end, nothing more, nothing less?
I doubt many people on the Apple forums weren't aware of the issue. Deleting the thread simply gives them more negative publicity.
All too often this is the naive apologists cry: "It's their foo. They should be allowed to do with it whatever they want." It's a true enough statement, but it stumbles spectacularly wide of the point. Don't mistake the right to do something with the judgment of whether or not you should.
Nobody cares about government corruption anyway. But if you mess with my iPhone I will class action the crap out of you Apple! Especially since I can't go to the beach anymore.
Funny thing is, I actually hold showed a person who bought an iPhone 4 how to hold the phone without cupping the bottom part. He nows hold it a different way and hasn't gotten any issues.
This really shows that there are always so many things we assume don't matter but really do. And frankly how I'm holding a cell phone shouldn't matter.
Umm... it's a support board for people who have bought a product, not a soapbox to whine on. It's one thing to have negative threads about how their product they bought doesn't work, it's another when people who haven't bought one complain. (And/or a continuation of the same subject that needs to be merged into the parent thread.)
EDIT: I should edit quickly to say that what I mean is that support boards specifically for support are for one purpose: support. Complaints need to go in the complaint box or the FCC or something.
For some reason Apple spawns such hatred within the industry that fans of other products will actively create accounts and start trolling on their message boards. I don't go trolling on Blackberry forums about how their devices require reboots regularly, or Android forums about the Evo4G battery life issues, so why do people that don't even own a product feel it is necessary to do so?
I'm not buying this - how does an iPhone 4 antenna issue affect someone that didn't even buy one? Are you being harmed if someone you call gets a dropped call because they held their iPhone 4 in the wrong way?
Sorry. I was speaking generally, not specifically, in regards to why people who don't own Apple products react to them the way they do, or at least one reason. I was addressing the specific question in a general sense.
So your concern is that Android and MS will start creating dubious antenna designs? Sheik, what a bunch of copycats.
I think Apple's stance, that anyone who isn't satisfied with the iPhone 4 can return it within 30 days, is the right way to go. They said it before ANYONE had their phone for more than 30 days. Instead the people who weren't satisfied filed a class action lawsuit against Apple for making a "flawed" product.
Can you tell me again why Apple OWES you a product that is perfectly free of defects? To the point of you being able to purchase that product and suing them over it instead of just getting a simple refund?
This is as if they walked into the store, purchased the phone and yelled (across the internet) "this is a crappy phone, don't give me my money back, get me my lawyer". They then walked out of the store, and proceeded to use that phone for months while the trial went through its paces. Likely those months of horrible reception will only add to the charges they will put against the iPhone.
Also, could people direct this feeling elsewhere, where it is more meaningful and productive?
Sorry. I was speaking generally, not specifically, in regards to why people who don't own Apple products react to them the way they do, or at least one reason. I was addressing the specific question in a general sense.
I will add this, however. When you purchase Apple products, you are beholden to them. They have a certain standard they need to live up to. If I am dissatisfied with a Dell, I have options with HP, or Lenovo, etc. If I'm not happy with Apple, I'm stuck. I have no other option for a Mac.
Compare Apple fans to that of the XBox or PS3. For some horrible reason, people will defend to the bitter end their console of choice. Nothing is gained or lost in these arguments, the same arguments are constantly thrown out, and quite frankly all the facts are widely available (system specs, regular issues like the RROD or hour-long installs) but no one cares. Everyone argues an opinion, and because this is the internet, quickly devolve a discussion to a flame war... I mean, really, how many Mac users have had serious issues with a one button mouse in the past decade?
The funny thing is, I don't actually see this sort of behavior from Apple fans. There isn't that underlying insecurity that causes kids who can't afford multiple consoles to get into fanboy wars. We're generally happy enough with our choices that we don't feel the need to constantly attack people who chose differently. We often do explain why we think Apple products are better, but that's largely because we can't believe how competitors keep getting it wrong, not because we're trying to calm inner anxieties about having made the wrong choice. (It still amazes me how bad the interface design on MP3 players were years after the iPod took over the market.)
The problem is that there are now tons of anti-Apple trolls hanging out on the Internet, a lot of whom are Android users who apparently feel the need to attack iPhone users with every spare moment. (Naturally, we defend ourselves.) What guts me is seeing this juvenile behavior on Hacker freaking News. This is by far one of the best online communities I've ever seen, but the anti-Apple trolling has definitely taken it down a notch.
Engadget, Macrumors, and here, for the most part (though I only comment here). The anti-Apple trolling is positively insane at Engadget, presumably because the average age of their commenters must be low, but it can get pretty bad at virtually any tech-oriented site, and even places like nytimes.com.
I definitely don't think 100% of Apple fans are immune to the above-decribed behavior: there are always some who aren't, especially if they're teenagers. You'll see more of that stuff now, because the space is polarized, and Apple fans have been put on the defensive. And yet I hardly ever see Apple fans producing hate-fueled criticism of other products and their fans. We receive way more of that stuff than we dish out.
For some reason Apple spawns the opposite of such hatred. Zealous apple fans stand in lines for days to purchase products, I think some of the hatred is directed at that behavior. Back on topic though, some people just haven't drank the kool-aid and want to discuss problems in a support forum. I don't see this forum moderation as an issue, as it seems only disruptive threads that didn't address problems were deleted.
"I think some of the hatred is directed at that behavior."
Those would have to be really sad folks. Why should anyone hate somebody for standing in-line for days to purchase an, in my opinion, overpriced gadget.
I think more to the point is that Apple fanatics defend anything that Apple pulls off. I could come up with a multitude of examples, but my favorite is the finder bug, that when you moved a file to a different volume this may have resulted in complete loss of the file (something Unix figured out, like, 30 years ago). (http://www.macintouch.com/leopard/movebug.html)
This is a bug, bugs happen and they can (and usually are fixed). But you had a bunch of rabid Apple fanatics who poisoned just about every discussion by trying to defend something undefensible.
It's the same reason why you can't have reasonable discussions with members of a cult. What the dear leader says is THE TRUTH and everybody else is out there to get us, infiltrate us and destroy us.
I may be modded to hell and then some for this comment, but that's really how I see it and it's annoying behaviour.
Not to give such behaviour a carte blanche, which it doesn't deserve, but are you really surprised after some of the stuff Apple and their fans dish out?
Every time an Apple fan mentions Windows crashing, every time someone says he's glad he uses a Mac after a Windows virus invariably activated by user stupidity pops up, every time a cringeworthy Mac vs PC ad (that's almost all of them, BTW) airs/aired, an anti-Apple troll is created.
It's not cool, but you can't be surprised it happens.
By the way, before yesterday, the last time I pulled the battery out of my ancient Blackberry 8100 (used daily) was on June 9... to swap a SIM card.
Well, if it's a support board, wouldn't that make this even more salient? As far as I've heard, apple doesn't even really want to acknowledge that there is a problem.
Lots of times when I'm looking for support, part of what I'm looking for is if other people are having the same problem. Linking an article detailing specifically why the problem you're having exists is very helpful when the company that built your defective phone doesn't want to help.
Except that there's plenty of discussion about this on Apple's boards. This looks to be a case of deleting a bunch of "me too" topics. As a board admin myself, I like to make sure things are on topic and free of trolls.
This Apple antenna thing is like a magnet for rabid pro-Android fans gloating, rabid anti-Apple haters schadenfreude, Internet trolls who do it for the lulz, and the poor people who actually have an issue. I really feel for the poor board moderators who have to sort between the four.
Is it okay for people to talk about the issue, and to reference an article talking about how, no, it really does exist, or not?
Am I missing something here? Oversimplifying it?
Can you imagine the shitstorm if microsoft released a copy of windows that crashed every time you tried to use the sound feature, then refused that that was happening, then told people to just not use the sound, then banned any postings on their support forums which referenced an article confirming that it was, in fact, happening?
That would suck, but a more apt analogy is if Ford made a car that had a defect, and Chevy owners created accounts on Ford owner forums specifically to complain about the Ford, even though they didn't own one, and even though they had never driven one before.
Eh, I would consider the phones to theoretically be version 1.0 (first gen), 1.5 (3g), 1.6 (3gs) and the iPhone 4 is 2.0. Avoiding "dot oh" releases is a common thing regardless of manufacturer.
You're confusing branding with identity. The previous three iPhones were all roughly the same hardware — incremental improvements with each model. The iPhone 4 is significantly different hardware. It keeps the iPhone brand, but it is a new piece of hardware. Similarly, the PowerBook G4 was not the fourth revision of the original PowerBook hardware.
I bought the first iPhone and it was far and away the best phone I've ever had. I replaced it with a Sony Ericsson phone because I've grown to be quite uncomfortable with Apple. The Sony phone is awful. It sort of makes me wonder what I'm really accomplishing by doing this :)
I don't have an iPhone but as far as I understand, the first iPhone was absolutely awful as a phone even though it had a great UI and was amazingly functional in general (I've used the iPhone's camera function and it rocked).
An ex-boss stopped making cellular calls and used skype instead just so he could keep doing other stuff with his iPhone.
Your mentioning of the iPad strikes me as peculiar, as it hasn't had any significant widespread problems and has been out for months now; in fact I was struck last night when I realized that there hasn't even been an update of any kind to the OS yet, though there's not clamor for it either. "Never buy rev 1" might be a decent rule of thumb, but it shouldn't be made more than that, and at this point it seems like we can draw some very good conclusions about the reliability of iPad 1.0s, whereas iPad 1.1 or 2.0 could be riddled with problems.
I thought there was some issue early on with using the iPad on some wifi routers... ah, yeah, there is some reason to think that memory was accurate http://www.google.com/#q=ipad+wifi+problems . Or was that issue pretty rare and overblown?
Pretty rare and overblown. The issues only affected some campus wifi networks with short DHCP leases. iPad has some unique features that allow it to receive push emails and notifications even while it is in sleep mode, by keeping the wifi connection active. Apparently it isn't yet smart enough to renew it's DHCP lease while in this sleep mode, so it was staying on a leased IP after the expiration time.
You were probably only affected if you were using an iPad on specific University campuses, and I see no reason why the network admins couldn't work around it by giving out longer DHCP leases to iPad specific hardware, at least, until an official fix was issued.
The iPad has overall been surprisingly bug free for a 1.0 product.
I'm looking forward to a proper response to these design issues.
I have quite a bit of my savings invested in Apple and, while a recall would be bad, an Apple that doesn't recognise it's own fuck ups would be far more serious.
They've made it much harder for themselves with Jobs' obnoxious e-mails and that dishonest press release.
- Never buy it in the first six months of release, even if it is a holodeck.
- Read/watch review. Not only from fanboys but also from rivals and people who despise this gizmo.
- If its expensive (and a bit out of your range), wait to see if there is any competing products. (I am still waiting to see what Google has to offer before getting iPad)
Frankly I am surprised that most tech savvy consumers don't follow some of these rule.
I'd buy a holodeck even if 50% functional. I think as long as it does not kill me its good, eh?
However never buy in 6 mo is a fairly good soft restriction. You can probably wait 2 months and buy it. My rule is "don't give in to the hype".
I also have the same outlook as I did with the iPod. If it is expensive wait till there is some good competition because after some good competition it can only get better, or the competition will. No competition = shit products. Hence Pentium 4
I have similar rules, but there is a caveat: the industry only progresses if some people are willing to go first. I feel like occasionally I have an obligation to take my turn. Kind of like driving on a long trip: we're all speeding for hundreds of miles, and sometimes you have to take a turn at the front of the pack. It's only fair.
Agreed. Also, there's a cost to not being an early adopter: your life is finite and you're missing out on having that thing for that fraction of your life. Not to say that there's no wisdom in eschewing new designs for a bit, of course; just that everything in life comes with both costs and benefits.
Apple has been doing this stuff for years. I bought a macbook pro two years ago and the dvd drive started failing withing the first 6 months. I took it into their store and got a run around and no replacement. There were third party forums with a lot of complaints, but most of the posts on Apple's support site disappeared pretty quickly.
Probably because the posts weren't related to tech support or there were already threads or a thread about the drive.
I don't really get the mentality. The users know what they are posting isn't tech support but do it anyway. You see the same thing on deal sites like slickdeals/fatwallet where someone posts in the hot deals forum and even says something like "this isn't a hot deal but I wanted to get the most people to see this..."
It also happens in Amazon product reviews. I don't want to read about how the 3rd party merchant you ordered from took 4 weeks to ship it to you when I am looking for product (not merchant) reviews. All the people who give 1-star reviews to books that aren't available in Kindle format to 'force' the publishers to release them are doing the same thing. It's a self-entitlement problem.
Also, HN kills many threads with complaints about HN.
It's the prerogative and even duty of a forum proprietor to steer discussion in productive directions, given the goals of the forum. Proprietors aren't obligated to let a culture of complaint take hold, or provide a soapbox for all their implacable critics.
Sure, certain actions will appear to be -- or actually be -- heavy-handed and counterproductive. But some control is definitely better than none. It's a matter of choosing the right amount, while occasionally over- or under-shooting.
There are plenty of places to hear about the CR review, or bitch about Apple and its products -- Apple's own forums don't need to be one those places.
Make sure you have 'showdead' on in your preferences. You'll see occasional flare-ups of whiny or repetitive threads all [dead]-ed. One recent series was a bunch of "why did thread X get killed?" "why did the question about thread X get killed?" etc.
You'll also see what looks like arbitrary [dead]ing of plausibly topical submissions -- and with what appears to be HN preference against offering explanations or answering questions, people are left guessing why. Sometimes I think it's just that a few users who like to use flags-as-downvotes wander by at a time, triggering an auto-[dead], and then no attentive admin is sufficiently motivated to reverse the decision. (A bunch of submissions and comments that seemed harmless to me were [dead]ed over the July 4 weekend, perhaps because more surly flaggers than magnanimous admins were online.)
Also, I find it ironic that people are downvoting my defense of forum-moderation. Don't they realize their downvotes are -- by causing my comment to fade and drop out of view -- censoring me?
Hypocritical basterds! :)
edit: added 2nd paragraph with more anecdotal examples
I'm really surprised in all 61 comments here no one has bothered to mention Apple left the "Serious Antenna Problem!" thread active. Basic forum moderation -- no need for duplicate threads on the same topic. I guess it's not quite as entertaining to look at it in an objective way though and, of course, that's what everyone on the Internet really wants: Entertainment.
65 comments
[ 5.0 ms ] story [ 137 ms ] threadFrankly, most companies would probably do the same thing. You wouldn't want a highly negative thread in your forums. That might make potential customers question their zeal and wait for the next model before they make their purchase. Definitely not something you want if you're in the business of releasing new phones every year or so.
Apple likes to shoot first and ask questions later. They banned a number of apps and only reversed the ruling after PR problems. So we'll see if this happens.
I've been lurking on the iPhone 4 boards since launch. Apple is leaving extremely negative threads open and active.
They generally do not leave threads that are begun as pointers to, and discussions on, outside sources.
If Apple decides to delete those threads than they should be able to do so.
Much like Best Buy's recent firing/non-firing of that employee, the act itself only serves to add more fuel to the negative-PR fire.
I doubt many people on the Apple forums weren't aware of the issue. Deleting the thread simply gives them more negative publicity.
This really shows that there are always so many things we assume don't matter but really do. And frankly how I'm holding a cell phone shouldn't matter.
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2503667...
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2503228...
EDIT: I should edit quickly to say that what I mean is that support boards specifically for support are for one purpose: support. Complaints need to go in the complaint box or the FCC or something.
Because Apple's products impact so much of industry, that even if you don't use their products, their products impact your life.
For example, just because you might not use a Microsoft product doesn't mean you aren't affected by Microsoft's choices.
That's at least one of the reasons.
I think Apple's stance, that anyone who isn't satisfied with the iPhone 4 can return it within 30 days, is the right way to go. They said it before ANYONE had their phone for more than 30 days. Instead the people who weren't satisfied filed a class action lawsuit against Apple for making a "flawed" product.
Can you tell me again why Apple OWES you a product that is perfectly free of defects? To the point of you being able to purchase that product and suing them over it instead of just getting a simple refund?
This is as if they walked into the store, purchased the phone and yelled (across the internet) "this is a crappy phone, don't give me my money back, get me my lawyer". They then walked out of the store, and proceeded to use that phone for months while the trial went through its paces. Likely those months of horrible reception will only add to the charges they will put against the iPhone.
Also, could people direct this feeling elsewhere, where it is more meaningful and productive?
I will add this, however. When you purchase Apple products, you are beholden to them. They have a certain standard they need to live up to. If I am dissatisfied with a Dell, I have options with HP, or Lenovo, etc. If I'm not happy with Apple, I'm stuck. I have no other option for a Mac.
Compare Apple fans to that of the XBox or PS3. For some horrible reason, people will defend to the bitter end their console of choice. Nothing is gained or lost in these arguments, the same arguments are constantly thrown out, and quite frankly all the facts are widely available (system specs, regular issues like the RROD or hour-long installs) but no one cares. Everyone argues an opinion, and because this is the internet, quickly devolve a discussion to a flame war... I mean, really, how many Mac users have had serious issues with a one button mouse in the past decade?
The problem is that there are now tons of anti-Apple trolls hanging out on the Internet, a lot of whom are Android users who apparently feel the need to attack iPhone users with every spare moment. (Naturally, we defend ourselves.) What guts me is seeing this juvenile behavior on Hacker freaking News. This is by far one of the best online communities I've ever seen, but the anti-Apple trolling has definitely taken it down a notch.
> We're generally happy enough with our choices
I realize this is anecdote vs anecdote, but I see plenty of it. Where do you usually hang out on the internet?
I definitely don't think 100% of Apple fans are immune to the above-decribed behavior: there are always some who aren't, especially if they're teenagers. You'll see more of that stuff now, because the space is polarized, and Apple fans have been put on the defensive. And yet I hardly ever see Apple fans producing hate-fueled criticism of other products and their fans. We receive way more of that stuff than we dish out.
Those would have to be really sad folks. Why should anyone hate somebody for standing in-line for days to purchase an, in my opinion, overpriced gadget.
I think more to the point is that Apple fanatics defend anything that Apple pulls off. I could come up with a multitude of examples, but my favorite is the finder bug, that when you moved a file to a different volume this may have resulted in complete loss of the file (something Unix figured out, like, 30 years ago). (http://www.macintouch.com/leopard/movebug.html)
This is a bug, bugs happen and they can (and usually are fixed). But you had a bunch of rabid Apple fanatics who poisoned just about every discussion by trying to defend something undefensible.
It's the same reason why you can't have reasonable discussions with members of a cult. What the dear leader says is THE TRUTH and everybody else is out there to get us, infiltrate us and destroy us.
I may be modded to hell and then some for this comment, but that's really how I see it and it's annoying behaviour.
Every time an Apple fan mentions Windows crashing, every time someone says he's glad he uses a Mac after a Windows virus invariably activated by user stupidity pops up, every time a cringeworthy Mac vs PC ad (that's almost all of them, BTW) airs/aired, an anti-Apple troll is created.
It's not cool, but you can't be surprised it happens.
By the way, before yesterday, the last time I pulled the battery out of my ancient Blackberry 8100 (used daily) was on June 9... to swap a SIM card.
Lots of times when I'm looking for support, part of what I'm looking for is if other people are having the same problem. Linking an article detailing specifically why the problem you're having exists is very helpful when the company that built your defective phone doesn't want to help.
This Apple antenna thing is like a magnet for rabid pro-Android fans gloating, rabid anti-Apple haters schadenfreude, Internet trolls who do it for the lulz, and the poor people who actually have an issue. I really feel for the poor board moderators who have to sort between the four.
Is it okay for people to talk about the issue, and to reference an article talking about how, no, it really does exist, or not?
Am I missing something here? Oversimplifying it?
Can you imagine the shitstorm if microsoft released a copy of windows that crashed every time you tried to use the sound feature, then refused that that was happening, then told people to just not use the sound, then banned any postings on their support forums which referenced an article confirming that it was, in fact, happening?
Like...the iPhone people don't really care or something?
It is unfortunate, because I really want an iPad, but it's a hard reality we have to tolerate until Apple figures out how to get their 1st revs right.
The most disturbing aspect of this rule is the almost guaranteed denial of 1st rev problems by Apple.
While I agree with you, on first gen, but this is a 4th gen iPhone conversation.
An ex-boss stopped making cellular calls and used skype instead just so he could keep doing other stuff with his iPhone.
You were probably only affected if you were using an iPad on specific University campuses, and I see no reason why the network admins couldn't work around it by giving out longer DHCP leases to iPad specific hardware, at least, until an official fix was issued.
The iPad has overall been surprisingly bug free for a 1.0 product.
I have quite a bit of my savings invested in Apple and, while a recall would be bad, an Apple that doesn't recognise it's own fuck ups would be far more serious.
They've made it much harder for themselves with Jobs' obnoxious e-mails and that dishonest press release.
- Never buy it in the first six months of release, even if it is a holodeck.
- Read/watch review. Not only from fanboys but also from rivals and people who despise this gizmo.
- If its expensive (and a bit out of your range), wait to see if there is any competing products. (I am still waiting to see what Google has to offer before getting iPad)
Frankly I am surprised that most tech savvy consumers don't follow some of these rule.
haven't you seen what happens when the holodeck is broken in the next generation?! it is no laughing matter.
However never buy in 6 mo is a fairly good soft restriction. You can probably wait 2 months and buy it. My rule is "don't give in to the hype".
I also have the same outlook as I did with the iPod. If it is expensive wait till there is some good competition because after some good competition it can only get better, or the competition will. No competition = shit products. Hence Pentium 4
I don't care if products have mistakes in them (unless obviously blatant mistakes).
I don't see myself only as a consumer.
However if no more posts arise, that is a problem.
I don't really get the mentality. The users know what they are posting isn't tech support but do it anyway. You see the same thing on deal sites like slickdeals/fatwallet where someone posts in the hot deals forum and even says something like "this isn't a hot deal but I wanted to get the most people to see this..."
It also happens in Amazon product reviews. I don't want to read about how the 3rd party merchant you ordered from took 4 weeks to ship it to you when I am looking for product (not merchant) reviews. All the people who give 1-star reviews to books that aren't available in Kindle format to 'force' the publishers to release them are doing the same thing. It's a self-entitlement problem.
It's the prerogative and even duty of a forum proprietor to steer discussion in productive directions, given the goals of the forum. Proprietors aren't obligated to let a culture of complaint take hold, or provide a soapbox for all their implacable critics.
Sure, certain actions will appear to be -- or actually be -- heavy-handed and counterproductive. But some control is definitely better than none. It's a matter of choosing the right amount, while occasionally over- or under-shooting.
There are plenty of places to hear about the CR review, or bitch about Apple and its products -- Apple's own forums don't need to be one those places.
Threads get modded down but that's a bit different.
You'll also see what looks like arbitrary [dead]ing of plausibly topical submissions -- and with what appears to be HN preference against offering explanations or answering questions, people are left guessing why. Sometimes I think it's just that a few users who like to use flags-as-downvotes wander by at a time, triggering an auto-[dead], and then no attentive admin is sufficiently motivated to reverse the decision. (A bunch of submissions and comments that seemed harmless to me were [dead]ed over the July 4 weekend, perhaps because more surly flaggers than magnanimous admins were online.)
Also, I find it ironic that people are downvoting my defense of forum-moderation. Don't they realize their downvotes are -- by causing my comment to fade and drop out of view -- censoring me?
Hypocritical basterds! :)
edit: added 2nd paragraph with more anecdotal examples