I make $90k USD to sit in an office 8 hours a day taking leisurely lunches and fixing bug tickets. Why do developers in the US make so much money right now?
I think it's most likely a bubble. Enjoy it while it lasts and build a sturdy parachute for when(and likely if) it doesn't. Maybe one day there will be too many of us and our price will be driven downwards.
I used to think this until I actually thought about how much value a developer can generate for a company.
If your 8 hours of bug fixing keeps a system generating 100k revenue an hour, suddenly 90k a year seems almost like a pittance.
Even for much less impressive amounts of revenue the math should checkout otherwise your job isn't really sustainable.
If your 5 man development team creates an application worth 100k in 6 months and you sell it to 10 clients, in half a year you've covered a year's worth of salary. Every additional sale related to further development for the next 6 months will be purely profit.
What worries me is jobs where you can't even come close to seeing how company revenue can (or will) exceed development costs, but I'd still keep in mind not guaranteed for a developer to know every factor involved.
I liken it to the auto-industry in America during the 1950s. Back then, single income families could take long summer vacations to cabins they might even own. The jobs came with good benefits and company culture was important. It feels very similar.
> Programmers are usually not encourage to wear button-down shirts
You're basing this view on a very small subset of companies (startups). the vast majority of places where people work still expect professional dress above the level of t shirt + cargo shorts and flip flops.
Because there's a shortage of good people and you provide this much value to the company. Where that money comes from is another question :) You might feel this because don't challenge yourself enough.
The kicker is, an external observer (ie your boss or hr) has no way to judge who the "good people" are. Are you the one fixing the bugs that stumped the team for weeks, or are you the one poorly implementing features that then require rework later on (and all that entails; prioritization, scheduling, talking, tracking)? What we do is totally opaque to everyone, but us.
So yes, I agree, there is a shortage of developers of all kinds. And nowadays, every company out there has some legacy system or another they need maintained or enhanced. Thus we're paid a lot. Some positions are very demanding, some aren't. A position that's demanding to one developer may not be to another (depending on experience etc).
At the end of the day, the big corporations are sitting on hoards of cash. The way a lot of companies are choosing to spend it are via "capex" captial expenditures on software projects. For these they need developers.
I've addressed this for myself by hopping jobs 3 times in 2 years, now my salary is 10% above the local market rate. I am intentionally extracting the most wealth from this situation that I can (within the bounds I have set for myself ie w2 fulltime, contracting I could be making quite a lot more).
I did not switch fields, so far as technical skills, I rarely feel challenged nowadays. A few things:
The way it came about was partly accidental. When I started this, the company I was at was failing, I knew it was time to leave. Then I took a contract position at a Big Dumb corp, when that was ending, instead of converting to full time, I had 3 other offers on the table. One local company was desparate, that's where the > 10% came from.
Always be interviewing. from constantly interviewing, I knew what the local market was like for my expertise (java enterprise). And I knew a great offer when I saw it.
Talk the talk and walk the walk. Train for the technical interview, be able to talk about how you've rocked past positions, and how you're going to rock this new position.
Put in the time, don't hide from the hard stuff. Every job I'd had I was sticking my nose into everything; frontend, backend, deployments, appserver and cluster adminning, production support, everything. That's how you get to be expert level at everything. It gives confidence, there's no part of the process I haven't experienced and have firm opinions on how to do right.
Sorry that turned in to general "dev career advice".
I agree with the other comment, we are probably in a buble so far as dev salaries, on the other hand, this may be the new normal. I base this opinion on the way central banks are continuing to print money.
I feel the same way. I make 83k completing vaguely connected tasks, while mostly reading things on the internet. Even out of college making 60k felt like I was overpaid.
The other side of that token is that I know guys making upwards of 120k with little work, mainly through office politics and delegating work.
I graduated about 3 years ago. My first job was with a small company. All hands were on deck with little room to mess around. After that I worked for large companies on projects with little organization and poor communication.
Where in Italy? I've always considered moving to Italy for the beautiful landscapes, food and the people, but salary as SW was always what kept me from it.
Alto Adige (South Tyrol),
Which is one of the economically strongest regions of Italy.
Lots of mountains (well, the Region used to be part of Austria, and people speak mostly German and Italian here.
I don't even think self-employed web developers have an easier time, there's just too many, it seems...
You shouldn't feel guilty for being able to take leisurely lunches. That's part of being a human being. If anything it's people who cannot who are in need of a better situation. Even now, you likely spend at least half your waking weekday hours in an office, plus you have to commute.
You can't do shit with 90k usd if you live in SF or NY. If you live in the midwest, good!
Think that as you are possibly an american, your parents might be at ur age getting a house and perhaps even raising you.
We definitely make a lot of money, but everything nowadays if expensive and the "end-game" objectives are more expensive for us than it was for our parents.
In the end, it's just a number, and you are possibly worse off than the previous generation.
Even after rent, you still end up with more money than most people earn in other places.
Those who make such claims usually seem to be those who get coffees at Starbucks, eat out every day, travel multiple times a year, get Uber rides everywhere, drink at bars regularly, buy the latest gadgets, etc.
What's the point of conquering the whole world if your people then can't even afford a coffee or a taxi? Where do you think all the wealth extracted from developing countries ends up? And it's not like it's going to magically return there if a few people refuse to get Starbucks or use taxis.
>Even after rent, you still end up with more money than most people earn in other places.
It's virtually certain that people in management, sales or any other important part (besides engineering) of any company aren't thinking like this. "How much can I get" is much more constructive way to approach this, compared to "how much do I need".
Remember, you don't have to spend a bunch of money on useless crap, but since most people are doing just that, you can negotiate as if you did too.
If anyone here finds their conscience burdened by the weight of too much money, feel free to send some of it to my paypal account[0]. I'll be happy to help you liberate yourself from the shackles of capitalist excess.
Anyone here be willing to help me get there? I'm stuck in another job until I figure out how to be doing bug fixes for ninety too. I like coding, & I live in the Bay area. Msg me maybe? u/racketship on Reddit. :Facepalm
After 20 years in this industry, only one thought comes to mind.
"I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."
41 comments
[ 134 ms ] story [ 898 ms ] threadIf your 8 hours of bug fixing keeps a system generating 100k revenue an hour, suddenly 90k a year seems almost like a pittance.
Even for much less impressive amounts of revenue the math should checkout otherwise your job isn't really sustainable.
If your 5 man development team creates an application worth 100k in 6 months and you sell it to 10 clients, in half a year you've covered a year's worth of salary. Every additional sale related to further development for the next 6 months will be purely profit.
What worries me is jobs where you can't even come close to seeing how company revenue can (or will) exceed development costs, but I'd still keep in mind not guaranteed for a developer to know every factor involved.
People use terms like "get your hands dirty" to describe programming. Programmers are usually not encourage to wear button-down shirts, suits, etc.
You're basing this view on a very small subset of companies (startups). the vast majority of places where people work still expect professional dress above the level of t shirt + cargo shorts and flip flops.
So yes, I agree, there is a shortage of developers of all kinds. And nowadays, every company out there has some legacy system or another they need maintained or enhanced. Thus we're paid a lot. Some positions are very demanding, some aren't. A position that's demanding to one developer may not be to another (depending on experience etc).
At the end of the day, the big corporations are sitting on hoards of cash. The way a lot of companies are choosing to spend it are via "capex" captial expenditures on software projects. For these they need developers.
I've addressed this for myself by hopping jobs 3 times in 2 years, now my salary is 10% above the local market rate. I am intentionally extracting the most wealth from this situation that I can (within the bounds I have set for myself ie w2 fulltime, contracting I could be making quite a lot more).
How did you manage this? Did you end up switching technologies or fields? Was it just for a salary increase, or were you un-challenged?
The way it came about was partly accidental. When I started this, the company I was at was failing, I knew it was time to leave. Then I took a contract position at a Big Dumb corp, when that was ending, instead of converting to full time, I had 3 other offers on the table. One local company was desparate, that's where the > 10% came from.
Always be interviewing. from constantly interviewing, I knew what the local market was like for my expertise (java enterprise). And I knew a great offer when I saw it.
Talk the talk and walk the walk. Train for the technical interview, be able to talk about how you've rocked past positions, and how you're going to rock this new position.
Put in the time, don't hide from the hard stuff. Every job I'd had I was sticking my nose into everything; frontend, backend, deployments, appserver and cluster adminning, production support, everything. That's how you get to be expert level at everything. It gives confidence, there's no part of the process I haven't experienced and have firm opinions on how to do right.
Sorry that turned in to general "dev career advice".
I agree with the other comment, we are probably in a buble so far as dev salaries, on the other hand, this may be the new normal. I base this opinion on the way central banks are continuing to print money.
Having not interviewed much I'm always weary of looking at job postings, interview questions, and such (for no good reason really).
I've learned a lot in my current position, but I'm starting to feel un-challenged and slightly bored with the main initiatives we are working on.
Soon enough I'll be the only developer left at this place aside from contractors, so that will be strange too...
The other side of that token is that I know guys making upwards of 120k with little work, mainly through office politics and delegating work.
I graduated about 3 years ago. My first job was with a small company. All hands were on deck with little room to mess around. After that I worked for large companies on projects with little organization and poor communication.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14753492
If you really feel so bad about what you get paid, tell HR you want to take a pay cut. Maybe they'll be happy to help.
Developers can provide extremely good value for a company.
Think that as you are possibly an american, your parents might be at ur age getting a house and perhaps even raising you.
We definitely make a lot of money, but everything nowadays if expensive and the "end-game" objectives are more expensive for us than it was for our parents.
In the end, it's just a number, and you are possibly worse off than the previous generation.
Even after rent, you still end up with more money than most people earn in other places.
Those who make such claims usually seem to be those who get coffees at Starbucks, eat out every day, travel multiple times a year, get Uber rides everywhere, drink at bars regularly, buy the latest gadgets, etc.
>Even after rent, you still end up with more money than most people earn in other places.
It's virtually certain that people in management, sales or any other important part (besides engineering) of any company aren't thinking like this. "How much can I get" is much more constructive way to approach this, compared to "how much do I need".
Remember, you don't have to spend a bunch of money on useless crap, but since most people are doing just that, you can negotiate as if you did too.
[0] https://www.paypal.me/kennethrapp
"I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."