318 comments

[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 314 ms ] thread
It's amazing what happens to rendering times when only the actual content is being loaded.
(comment deleted)
EDIT: As I wrote this, someone deployed a server-side rendered version of the site. Now the site is perfect. :)

This site appears to load ~350 KB of JavaScript, which I think is a bit excessive for a "lite" text-only site. From the sourcemaps, I found a long list of libraries, including:

* react

* redux

* redux-thunk

* react-router

* axios

* base64-js (why not window.atob/btoa?)

* core-js

* fbjs

* react-hot-loader (should not be in a production build)

* ...a bunch of other smaller modules

There's only about 10 KB of non-library application code. Note that I ignore gzip when evaluating this sort of stuff, since that many bytes of code still need to be parsed, no matter how much it compresses.

For the person who made this site, I would replace React with Preact (or Inferno), which should remove most of the bloat. Server side rendering would also be nice for those who don't have JavaScript enabled and would also improve the loading time.

At least it's still better than cnn.com. http://www.webpagetest.org/result/170910_C8_e78305788a19b0fb...

>> At least it's still better than cnn.com.

That's literally the entire value prop of the website. The author isn't obligated to use your personal list of approved web tools.

This reveals why I didn't see anything on my phone on first time visiting it. My browser just show a blank page, then seconds later the contents show up.
What's worse all the content is sent inline, just not as html :( Why complicate this so much?
FWIW the site still looks fine with noscript enabled.
WTF? why any JS at all for something that's pure content?
History repeats itself. This is just like flash sites back in the 90s.
It has no benefit on the client itself, but in this (server-rendered) case, you can think of it as improved PHP/Ruby/....
The question wasn't why anyone was using Javascript on the server.

The question was why a pure-text non-interactive website needs any javascript at all.

Because when you're treating React as a templating language, it's easier to let it run on the client side during development and add server rendering later.
Seems like it'd be easier to just use the templates already there for the content on the server, instead of building an additional application.
i don't know react. Can you elaborate what you mean using React as a templating language? Are you saying react can be used sans any business logic and purely for template interpolation?
Simply put, React lets you do two things:

* Generate a HTML/DOM based on a template and data.

* Lets you efficiently update that DOM based on updates to the data and/or model (this is it's killer feature).

But if you're just going to do the first thing (generate a HTML/DOM), you don't need most of React's feature set, and you certainly don't need to push heavy JS onto the client.

For those cases, a much better approach (for both clients and SEO) is to just pre-render the DOM/HTML server-side and serve that without any need for any javascript client-side (which is what the similarly named module "Preact" does).

Josteink said it excellently, my addition is that React itself is a view library that lets you update DOM easily based on some data, and the data (and the logic behind it) can be and often are completely separated from React components themselves.
Because this site is clearly in need of 250 KB surveillance JavaScript.

So even this "plain text" site still transfers ~98 % bloat and just ~2 % content.

transfer is different from filesize

its more around 90% JS, 10% content

After the first page load (with scripts cached) its around 87% content (unfortunately they don't seem to be caching CSS)

Trump literally effected CNN to consider human tolerancy to their questinable content!
Almost anything is better than CNN: https://urlscan.io/result/6834c63f-b092-4e4e-b72b-91bd1c1b82... This is on par with other shitty news-websites.

This website contacted 65 IPs in 7 countries across 35 domains to perform 314 HTTP transactions. [...] In total, 4 MB of data was transfered, which is 12 MB uncompressed. It took 2.753 seconds to load this page.

Compare this to the now-SSR cnn.io: https://urlscan.io/result/7d13efac-ffaa-4ac2-a091-8611e39b20... (59kB transfer)

Edit: Someone scanned the lite-version before they switched to SSR: https://urlscan.io/result/2a9690eb-3992-4712-a657-c3be959d51...

FWIW, base64-js and similar libraries are still needed (though probably not in this case...) because window.btoa() only works on latin1 ASCII strings. Try giving it some arbitrary UTF-8:

btoa("\ud83d\ude0b") -> Uncaught DOMException: Failed to execute 'btoa' on 'Window': The string to be encoded contains characters outside of the Latin1 range.

(Edit: apparently HN doesn't either; changed to \u...)

> FWIW, base64-js and similar libraries are still needed

For what? This is a non-interactive text-only website. It shouldn't need anything beside HTML and CSS.

You are 100% correct. Honestly, it doesn't need CSS even, although that's nice to have.

I've got NoScript on, and now the pages load perfectly. I think I may return to being a CNN reader now. If only they could figure out how to monetise this.

For the rest of the sentence... I was clearly referring to the question of why someone would use a library for base64 versus the built-in function. Not getting involved in the anti-js internet pitchfork mob.
Wow. After all these years of taking steps backwards, finally 100 steps forward.
Is there a collaborative community effort for "fixing" websites to make this "100 steps forward"? The relative ease and the large benefit of doing so make it surprising I haven't seen a list of lite websites maintained by volunteers.
Firefox's reader mode?
Is that a "community" effort? or a Mozilla effort?
Mozilla is a community effort.
Fair enough. I guess I my question is: FF is a funded community effort. Is there a non-funded community effort?
In my understanding, Firefox Reader Mode (and similar features in other browsers) reads in the entire page and, based on analyzing the page for cues, then decides to offer the user an option to choose reader view (or not).

So while it helps improve readability, it doesn't cut down the time to load, the amount of data downloaded, and probably helps improve the battery life only marginally (this is debatable, depending on the amount of active JS, auto-play videos and also at what time offset t the user chooses reader mode after the page loads).

The impression i have of this reader mode is that it relies, in part, on pages offering markers for printing.

I have in the past noticed that reader mode will not be available of i have killed the JS on a site that enable their print format.

100 steps forward is a crap ton of JS just to show text that doesn't change?
I'm getting a totally blank page on Android 7.0 chrome 61.
Bookmarked. Please drop the excessive JS and image tho cnn.
My laptop can run computationally-intensive physics simulations and play streaming hi-def video with no problem, but if I click a link to a mainstream news article it just about keels over and dies. How did our grandparents ever manage to load the news on an underpowered machine called "paper"?
Try noscript, ghostery, or the other one that escapes me at the moment. News sites in general have about twenty JavaScript ad trackers on them each.
There's also Ublock Origin(general ad block, with highly granular options), and Privacy Badger.
Not to mention the Brave browser
It works like a gas; the performance-sapping computations on the articles expand until they fill up all available human latency tolerance.
Haha this tickles me. If you arent already using reddit you should be.
That and the abomination of the technology stack that we use for said process. HTML/CSS/JS is absolutely not the answer for "I want to make a UI", never mind the fact that many UI designers have no clue how the stack works and abuse it horribly.

The idea may be "paper", but what's actually being done is far from it. The browser may paint and repaint a pixel a dozen times before it's ever rendered. DOM-traversal is one of the most important parts of a browser's optimization because of the tens of thousands of times it can happen to paint a screen.

React and similar libraries were made to alleviate exactly this problem.
100% agree; text-based sites are the worst for this, due to all the tracking they do in JavaScript.

I've been using Brave for a while now, on both laptop and Android.

Any time I try to load pretty much any website in Chrome on Android or SeaMonkey on laptop, it's just so painfully slow compared to Brave!

I am quite paranoid about extensions stealing my data and identity. How do you ensure that level of security with Brave etc? is it open source?
Paper is rendered entirely server-side.

Taking out a full-page newspaper ad is an attention-grabber. Taking out a full-page pop-up is merely an annoyance. Why does this perception exist? Why isn't digital space regarded on-par with paper space?

Because of this, digital ads sell for much, much less than paper ads. And so ad-supported companies have to use 10x as many ads to get 1/10 the revenue. And these ads can gain more info if they run in the client.

I use uBlock Origin, uMatrix, DuckDuckGo, and HTTPS Everywhere for a mix of adblocking and privacy. uBlock Origin lets you block specific or wildcard DOM elements - literally anything on the page. Sometimes I even block annoying photos that are not ads.

uMatrix lets you block or allow different file types from different domains. By default, you get all CSS and Image files from any site, and all Javascript from the original domain. The drop-down makes it easy to update the allowed file types, then just refresh the page. (The downside is sometimes each refresh will just load 1 more script, so it takes 15 minutes of adding another domain, refreshing, domain, refresh, until the whole capcha or all images load.)

I think it's a recent phenomenon and not related to rendering of ads.

I use Chrome and it's quite common, but not always. I would turn up the developer console and find thousands of errors and warnings when I notice the tab icon keeps blinking. The errors are mostly blocking of third-party plugins, security domain violations or similar content policy enforcement. And it just keeps reloading the same requests.

I don't have any ad blocking or any extension installed so this should be a wide spread thing. It's probably overzealous ad providers ignoring Chrome's security policies.

(comment deleted)
Does this belong to CNN? It's great to read news without clutter, just clear contents. I hope there are many sites like this, it saves you from load the whole page then click the reader mode or similar.
Seems to be using the same CDN with the same hostnames as regular CNN, has their logos, their content, looks theirs.
Then why is it not on a subdomain of cnn.com? Anyone could copy their logo and their content.
Because it's a separate site? I have no idea. It takes 30 seconds to convince yourself it's theirs, though, so I'm not sure what you're asking me.
How did you manage to convince yourself it's theirs?

Why couldn't they just put it on lite.cnn.com?

If you try to look up the whois for cnn.io, you only get:

  Registrar: CSC Corporate Domains, Inc.
  Registrar IANA ID: 299
  Registrar Abuse Contact Email:
  Registrar Abuse Contact Phone:
  Name Server: NS-24.AWSDNS-03.COM
  Name Server: NS-630.AWSDNS-14.NET
  Name Server: NS-1845.AWSDNS-38.CO.UK
  Name Server: NS-1268.AWSDNS-30.ORG
There is nothing here that indicates this is legit CNN?
I'm not sure why you just put the registry line? Also this is the same registrar cnn.com uses.

Also, this registrar doesn't seem to provide _any_ whois contact information, is that allowed by ICAN?

>There is nothing here that indicates this is legit CNN?

Registering through CSC is difficult if you aren't a BigCo.

I said they use the same CDN hosts with the same forward and reverse names. Which I find quite convincing, on top of everything else.

    dig lite.cnn.io
    
    lite.cnn.io.		18	IN	CNAME	turner-tls.map.fastly.net.
    turner-tls.map.fastly.net. 20	IN	A	151.101.1.67

    dig www.cnn.com
    www.cnn.com.		39	IN	CNAME	turner-tls.map.fastly.net.
    turner-tls.map.fastly.net. 18	IN	A	151.101.1.67
This is better than CNN.com, but the big problem with CNN is that it simply isn't very good. If you're haven't tried it again, let me again strongly recommend a subscription to the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, or the New York Times. You might be as surprised as I was, once I was free to click around the sites without thinking about paywalls, how much better the reporting is at real newspapers than it is at free news sites.
I'm going to point out that The Guardian hasn't put up a paywall, but remains a 'real newspaper'.

There's also going directly to the AP(https://apnews.com/) for straight news articles, sans editorial, if that what you want.

Washington Post shows ads even to subscribers.
Beware, you cannot cancel your subscription to Wall Street Journal without calling them.
This is great. I'm sick to death of clicking to links on news articles and having some auto-playing video read it to me...
Any rss feed for this?

This is awesome. It's quick, to the point, efficient, and allows me to get what I need, then it gets the fuck out of my way.

I'm even willing to put money into this. Is that possible?

The absolute worst thing about cnn.com is the auto-playing videos. I've been in quiet places and clicked a CNN news link only to have a video start blasting on the speakers. It's not only annoying but a huge waste of mobile bandwidth.

Now I just need an extension that rewrites all CNN urls to this site.

My computer's speakers are not plugged in. Problem solved.
Some people use laptops.
The speakers can often be disabled by plugging a wire that goes nowhere into the line out jack.
You can set the volume to off.
Can I see your script that plumbs volume level to ipfw rules?
I don’t want to disable my speakers just because someone thought these autoplay videos are a good idea.
Press the volume down button multiple times. Most laptops have one button that just mutes sound in one go.
Because I want to turn off the talk or music I'm listening to too?
Lol how I'd not being able to play any sound "problem solved?" You really reach down and plug your speakers in whenever it's time to play audio?
I play music while I work. I got tired of all the programs that insisted on using sound effects or playing other sounds, so now my computer's speakers are mechanically disabled, and I have a separate system for music.

I'll connect it to my sound system if I want to hear something from the computer, which is rarely.

I've got specific dnsmasq block rules for those.

    0.0.0.0 ht1.cdn.turner.com      # Autoplay video
    0.0.0.0 ht2.cdn.turner.com      # Autoplay video
    0.0.0.0 ht3.cdn.turner.com      # Autoplay video
    0.0.0.0 ht4.cdn.turner.com      # Autoplay video
    0.0.0.0 ht5.cdn.turner.com      # Autoplay video
    0.0.0.0 ht6.cdn.turner.com      # Autoplay video
    0.0.0.0 ht7.cdn.turner.com      # Autoplay video
    0.0.0.0 ht8.cdn.turner.com      # Autoplay video
    0.0.0.0 ht9.cdn.turner.com      # Autoplay video
    0.0.0.0 a.teads.tv              # Autoplay video
    0.0.0.0 t.teads.tv              # Autoplay video
    0.0.0.0 cdn.teads.tv            # Autoplay video
Not all those hosts are populated yet, but this is effective.
Disable HTML5 Autoplay https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/disable-html5-auto...

works for me at the moment. You never know when the blighters will change the format though.

In Firefox:

about:config

media.autoplay.enabled False

chrome://flags/

Search for "Autoplay policy" and change it to "Document user activation is required"

I haven't test it on other sites but in Youtube works fine.

How do I disable autoplaying video on my Android phone though? It's really annoying that news sites think it's ok to use my mobile bandwidth with redundant videos.
I use uBlock Origin's element blocker to block these terrible news autoplay videos. I don't understand why news sites love them so much.
That's the absolute worst thing about EVERYTHING on the web. It's usually a video of absolute nonsense too, for example just bullet points from the text below. As if we've got shitty powerpoints, with sound, that play every, single, page. Drives me insane.
(comment deleted)
From the title I thought it would be a Convolutional Neural Network for text, not the Cable News Network in plain text.

An example to show that text CNN's are a thing: https://github.com/dennybritz/cnn-text-classification-tf

I feel your pain, I thought it was either a Convolution or a Cellular neural network, was very disappointed. But thanks for pointing to some actual good material to read and look over.

To add to your trend, here is an article [1] about "Texture Classification and Segmentation by Cellular Neural Networks Using Genetic Learning" , texture not text though as they are more vision related, though it would be interesting to see by what methods they could be applied to text.

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Tamas_Sziranyi/publicat...

Don't feel bad, I also assumed this had something to do with Convnets before actually clicking through.
I get "Not found" as the only content served.
Yaaay, text-only propaganda. Seriously, CNN is crap, this only helps the web scrapers.
Also, NPR has had a text only site for ages

http://thin.npr.org

It's so fast, feels like it's hosted locally
(comment deleted)
if you click Topics -> News[0] it takes 2.7 seconds. They should throw that subdomain behind https://memcached.org/ (and not use php lol).

Unrelated, seems like I can't listen to podcasts. There's an <audio> tag (which doesn't use data unless you click on play if you set preload="none" [1]), so that's an interesting choice.

    $ curl http://thin.npr.org/t.php?tid=1001
    [...]
    Total wall clock time: 2.7s

    $ ping thin.npr.org
    [...]
    round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 76.407/78.359/86.985/2.442 ms

[0] http://thin.npr.org/t.php?tid=1001

[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/au...

You don't put things behind Memcached. You put Memcached behind things.
Varnish is an in-memory cache that sits in front of a site.
"and not use php lol"

PHP has warts, but I find it unlikely that it would be the reason for a 2.7 second page load.

Finally! I can feel like I actually have gigabit fiber!!!
This is great! I've been reading NPR for years and never knew about this. Thank you.
Shame that thin.npr.org does not have HTTPS
Why do you need to encrypt your connection to that site? No sensitive info sent.
Just a few reasons:

* To overcome government censorship and surveillance.

* To stop internet providers from injecting ads and tracking scripts.

>To overcome government censorship and surveillance.

But the site isn't being censored? Also https won't stop the government from knowing that you connected to those servers. I agree that we want to avoid censorship and surveillance in general, but it really doesn't seem relevant here.

>To stop internet providers from injecting ads and tracking scripts.

Is your ISP actually doing that to you right now? Or is that just hypothetical?

> But the site isn't being censored?

How do you know? Without https, a MITM-attack might already be in place, and you wouldn't even notice.

> Is your ISP actually doing that to you right now? Or is that just hypothetical?

Yes there are multiple instances where my isp was injecting stuff. More frequently at public wifi spots.

> Is your ISP actually doing that to you right now? Or is that just hypothetical?

I was on a Southwest flight earlier this week which did exactly this, using HTTP injection to display an overlay on every HTTP page. It's certainly useful to provide flight information (or Amber alerts, weather information, billing alerts), but it's Just Wrong™ to violate the integrity of a communication to do so. Perhaps there should be some standard protocol for ISPs to send messages to clients, permitting the connected OS to determine how to display them?

I can't remember which country it was, but it was either a Vodaphone or O2 sim which would inject their little banner at the top of websites that weren't HTTPS. It was super annoying, especially seeing it on my own site!
A café I go to sometimes for coffee injects ads to non-HTTPS websites. Full screen ads with a timer. It's a good reminder that HTTP sites can be and are being arbitrarily manipulated and surveilled by WiFi operators.
My ISP, WideOpenWest, uses HTTP injection as their primary method for notifying customers of maintenance, etc.
It wouldn't stop surveillance, because there are only a limited number of pages it can serve. It's possible for an attacker to download all of them and figure out what you're reading by traffic analysis.
A monumentally more difficult task than intercepting an unencrypted connection.
Which politically charged articles you read can very much be sensitive information. When in question, all information is sensitive.
All information is sensitive. Encrypt everything.
It's nobody's business what stories I read.
When you load an article it shows only the first sentence and then

Read More ... ( 19213 bytes )

Brilliant!

NPR developer here. We launched some changes to the text site this morning.

NPR set up a text site in late 2001. A developer reworked the text site in 2005. We have made very few changes since then.

The site is a set of a few PHP scripts querying our MySQL CMS database directly with no caching. The HTML and JS were aimed at providing a decent mobile experience in 2005. That included a lot of hacks and workarounds for extremely defunct platforms.

The newsroom asked us to make some improvements. The main features:

- display more news stories following editorial order rather than reverse chron,

- remove the obnoxious interstitial "read more" view for stories,

- put the text site behind Akamai like our other web properties,

- configure HTTPS on the text site (still in progress and won't be the default due to TLS overhead)

It should be a lot faster and more pleasant to use.

Thank you to everyone who made lots of noise about CNN's text offering. There is a small contingent of developers at NPR who love the text site to the point that they've created replacements as personal projects. They were very excited to improve it for the public!

An important feature is that the article pages don't have an article title. Annoying if you like to open a set of pages from the main page to read as an initial action prior to reading. Current pages at lite.cnn.io don't seem to have extra JavaScript.
The BBC News site used to have a wonderful text-only version which disappeared a long time ago. I still miss it. It even worked really well in lynx.
Bbc news should still work well in lynx, or at least it did last time I checked.
...and the World Wide Web goes full circle and mimics the service it replaced. #gopher2017
a 16GB RAM machine to run something that ran on 16MB
So that you can open 1024 pages before swapping to disk.

People asked for hundreds of open tabs, they got it.

Even on a 16MB machine I had open tens of tabs without much problem, browser responsiveness on Firebird(?) was the same as this multi-core machine
Text-only fake news, hooray!
We've asked you many times to post civilly and substantively here, and since it that change doesn't seem forthcoming we've banned this account. We're happy to unban accounts if you email us at hn@ycombinator.com and we believe you'll post within the guidelines in the future.
This + reader mode in Safari is heaven.

If any other news org is tuning in, please do this!

When Google first came out and we tried it there were two things we liked about it.

The first: Good search results. Yeah everyone knows that right. But young people today might have forgotten the second reason we liked Google search back then:

The Second: A clean page with a single logo and search field. It loaded quick. There were no banners everywhere, no bs.

HackerNews has that feel. It is clean, information dense, and does what it needs to do.

I'd add that Google News used to have that clean feel too, many years ago. Each generation it gets worse. The latest generation using AMP is nearly unreadable on my Nexus 5 phone, it bogs it to a crawl.
And for no benefit it all (or even regression), that's what maddens me.
I couldn't find a better image but I remember this used to be the big argument why people liked Google's design over yahoo:

http://aautar.digital-radiation.com/blog/uploaded_images/goo...

Well, Yahoo was designed to be a web directory, which eventually evolved into portal (until mid of 2000, Yahoo search would still show "directory").

Google was all about search at the beginning. I still went to Yahoo and MSN for news and information. But I think some time after mid 2000, a lot of folks began to shift from going to portal to get information, to typing keywords "news" in Google search. Somehow we are hooked to typing keywords. When Google finally released news.google.com now users could have a quick navigation of current events. This behavior is manifested in the era of social media. So many people are now getting news from logging onto facebook / twitter. To verify, as a smart reader I would search on Google, hoping to find a full version from reputable news sites.

In some countries/culture, portal is still preferred. e.g. Yahoo Japan being one. There are still some values of Yahoo.com; I still go there if I am looking up finance news or some pop-culture entertainment news (no other new sites do better than Yahoo on entertainment news broadcast).

The second reason was the predominant reason. We already had a lot of options for search results with search engines like Altavista/aggregate sites. It's the simplicity of Google that made Google.

PS. It's also the reason Google now is increasingly less special (but they do try to keep it simple when they can, subtly).

I'm not sure that was the predominant reason. The search results were also a hell of a lot better than AltaVista, Lycos, Yahoo and whatever else was around back then.
Yes. In particular, Google's search were much better for ordinary users who didn't do complex searches....
Google was a huge improvement because if you searched for Foo Bar Baz it would only give you pages that had all the words Foo, Bar and Baz whereas AltaVista et al. would give you pages containing any of the words, if memory serves. But the speed was a huge deal too, especially on a 56k modem (and the thing had to be rendered in IE4 on a Pentium II too, let's not forget).
AltaVista had a full set of boolean operators, so you could search for [Foo AND (Bar OR Baz) AND NOT Quux], which I still miss. Google appeared just when AltaVista ‘graduated’ from a showpiece for the Alpha to trying to make money and therefore turned to crap.
I don't know why, but many times Google just doesn't load here. I always open a private tab in Firefox to get rid of cookies easily, then load Google, and I don't know if this is the reason but after a while it just stops.

Duckduckgo is (for me) the new google in terms of speed, but the search results are not the same quality.

Duckduckgo is very slow for me when it comes to opening things in a new tab(Safari on a laptop). It takes several second for the right click options to come up when right clicking.
Maybe a plug-in? I use Safari and dont have that issue right clicking.
The Swedish public broadcaster still keeps their Teletext[0] service running. One of the cleanest way to get your news (especially on a TV where load times are zero). You can access it on the web as well https://www.svt.se/svttext/web/pages/100.html

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext

Same thing for Germany! http://www.ard-text.de/
It even has a mobile app and it is the fastest loading news app I know of and it loads even with the slowest connection. Due to restrictions of the medium, the text is short and to the point. As there are no analytics with Teletext, clickbait has never arrived there. More sites should follow that model.
Same thing in Poland & Croatia, probably many other EU countries
It makes me pine for the days of Gopher.
What do you miss about Gopher?
All data, simple navigation, no BS.
> (especially on a TV where load times are zero)

I haven’t seen any one TV like that. Poland’s Teletext services are full of lonely hearts spam and are generally worthless, even though still alive.

Google seems to have forgotten this and now thinks its some kind of design company. Everything with the exception of adwords and analytics it has applied material to is now garbage.

News use to be my default homepage but surprisingly MSN gives me a much better product with more then 4 stories on the page on 32" monitors.

Google seems to care more about manipulating the masses than they do performance/profit. The fact they admit to passing over objectively better candidates to hit quotas proves this. I'd say what you mention is probably a side effect of that.
"admit to passing over objectively better candidates"

I'd love to see your citation on that claim.

The poster is maybe referring to James Damore's interview with Joe Rogan, where he claims that Google executives admit to diversity procedures in hiring.

Disclaimer: I have no opinion on this topic. I am merely speculating the potential source of info.

Fully agreed.

I miss the Google of the “to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful” era.

Google Plus could have been fine if it wasn't rammed down user's throats. But no, every product had to integrate with it, had to look like it .... because ... Steve Jobs said so ? Then came Vic Gundotra with all the high craftsmanship of political empire building maneuvering and little else. Probably broke the original internal culture if it had survived till then (not sure).

The new google news page is awful. It's classic user interface designer making stuff pretty with no thought on how to display news. The old page was much better, it was denser. I friggin hate Google news now and am looking for a better news source. I'm not loving text only, I'd be happy with a text only top level and then text & pics for the stories.

I'll check out MSN.

A while back I did a comparison of the code behind the major search engines' landing pages, and found that DuckDuckGo is by far the cleanest, simplest, and most accessible, yet they still manage to make a living on text ads in their results.

Another easy way to see the difference is to load each site up in a text-only browser like links. You'll find that DDG has the cleanest interface there, too.

I still use Startpage most of the time due to the generally better search results, but DDG is my backup and sometimes finds things Startpage (i.e. Google) doesn't.

Duckduck go is a pretty good engine for 90% of searches. I wonder however whether its (perhaps tenuous) connection with Yandex and Russia should give pause? I admit I have only read this in a headline several years back.
I've never heard of anything like that; my understanding is that it's an American company that uses Bing as the back end.
Only thing I don't get on HN, is the number on the left of the title. What purpose does that serve?
Great. Now we could structure the text with a markup language and syndicate it. Anyone could consume these syndicated feeds using a variety of free apps. We could even standardize this and call it... RSS :)
If only CNN would go back to being the old but trusted, amazing CNN, with Christiane Amanpour at the landing in Mogadishu during Restore Hope, or Bernie Shaw at the hotel in Baghdad for Desert Storm.

Now, a shell of its old self, CNN is just MSNBC's cousin, with people who say "we, ahem, I mean, the Democrats, are losing Michigan" live on screen.

Oh well. It's been years since I relied on CNN.

But on the technical front, good for them.

its been ages I have watched any news from a narrated source. My advice (more so after last election) pay money for news. free is way worse!
I think they appeal to the majority sentiment which sways dem or rep depending on who's in office. They were much more center-right while Obama was at the helm.
Ah, the good ol' days, when CNN didn't have CIA minders moderating its releases and directing its reporting policies, because of, y'know .. "the war on the TERROR" .. before The Patriot Act came and ruined America.

Yeah, I remember those days too. While I'm glad that CNN has become more accessible with this text interface, I'm still not going to read it. It is, without a doubt, highly unreliable a news source, and not something one should be using to base ones world view on ..