This looks great! I hope they can build what they're pitching. I look forward to buying one of these (or something like it) should it ever make it to market.
...and they're still crowdfunding it and don't expect the deliveries before 2019.
Presumably, the question "go for which OS on mobile" refers to now, so Librem's definitely not an answer to the question above, even though it's a marvelous goal.
Windows Mobile is honestly still (for the short term while it exists) still a very solid option. I used to try to do the Android-without-Google thing, and it was nearly unmanageable, since pretty much every app on the platform depends on Play Services. (Most location-enabled apps won't work without Google Location Services on, for instance.)
I actually have more apps available to me on a Windows 10 Mobile device than an Android device with Play disabled. And I'm able to do most everything I need to while sending drastically less information to my Microsoft account than I ever did to Google.
Microsoft still updates every Windows 10 Mobile device monthly with security updates, direct from them, on the second Tuesday of every month. (I got an update for my 2014-era Windows Mobile phone on the 12th, for instance.) In many ways, this means Windows Mobile is still a more secure choice than most Android phones. Microsoft releases the update to all devices on the same day, regardless of OEM.
I can say my phone isn't vulnerable to the BlueBorne thing that came out this week, but most Android users won't be able to speak to that.
While your comment does apply to the large majority of Android users, there are some things worth keeping in mind:
* It applies to non-Nexus/Pixel lines (before you say that this is an invalid argument, most of the Windows devices sold are Lumia devices, so presumably, yours is too).
* It applies to people who don't change phones every six months (the amount of people I've witnessed updating Galaxy phones every year is equal to the amount of people I've seen upgrading iPhones every year).
* It applies to people not using a relatively recent Samsung (https://security.samsungmobile.com/workScope.smsb) or LG (https://lgsecurity.lge.com/security_updates.html) phones.
The only valid security argument is that Windows phones and iPhones have longer support than Google (two years for upgrades to newer versions + one additional year of security updates). That's it. The rest is to blame solely on companies that make Android phones.
Google is the only one out of all three that actually gives everyone a chance of using their OS. Microsoft (from what I could find) is only giving Windows Mobile free to some mobile companies. Apple is not providing that option to anyone.
If the rest of the companies didn't actually try really hard to stand out from the rest of the Android crowd by modifying vanilla Android, we would have a completely different situation.
...which is another reason why I blame OEMs, not Google.
Unlike the Lumia, Nexus/Pixel is a tiny percentage of the ecosystem, and not representative of the state of Android. And if you're looking to get away from Google as this thread is discussing, buying a $600 phone directly from them seems like moving in the wrong direction. Note that while I do carry a Lumia (the last one that works on Verizon), Microsoft gives equal direct support to phones made by other manufacturers, such as Acer, Alcatel, and HP, whom all receive the same updates at the exact same time.
Another security argument for Windows Mobile is actually that while flaws are regularly found and patched in the code due to the shared codebase with Windows desktop, it has a significantly reduced attack surface compared to Windows 10 proper. Nobody invests resources into developing exploits for Windows 10 Mobile, so it's exceedingly unlikely for any to be out there. Security by obscurity is not something you should rely on (I rely on monthly patches), but it does help.
Blaming OEMs for Android's update woes relies on some significant misconceptions. First and foremost, every OEM that ships Android devices with Google Play has to sign an agreement binding them to a truly incredible number of terms for how the platform operates and what is on the phone (this is known as the Google MADA). This spans everything from requiring Google's approval to release products to which apps must be preinstalled and set as default on each new device. If Google wished to control updates, they would.
Bear in mind that many OEMs offer stock Android or as close to stock Android as possible: If Google was willing to handle updates directly for Android devices, at least a few OEMs would've opted in already. The reality is that creating and testing releases for Android devices is an expensive proposition that Google wants no part in. The way Android devices update was designed and developed by Google, and the position that Google is not responsible for it seems indefensible.
This is ridiculuous and if you're over 16, you should be ashamed of yourself. Frequenting HN and using such teen/vague talk is not constructive.
iCloud is not secure. That's an accepted fact by now. If you don't sync stuff to iCloud, your iPhone's local data is much more secure than in any Android device. This is also a fact. Reference: the "Storage" permission in Android; once you give it to an app, it can scan your entire device; as a comparison, an iDevice storage permission only allows it access to its sandboxed storage).
Yeah sadly even though you can install a rom like Lineageos, many apps require the google play services installed, which then requires the Gapps to be flashed. Which kinda defeats the purpose... :'(
Google Play Services really isn't that bad. Sure it's annoying and proprietary, but it doesn't give them any more control than what Apple has by default on their devices.
And you have to trust a binary from a "nightly" build hosted on who knows where for your model - There's so much possibility for stuff to happen I'm not sure it's even a good recommendation to make.
It's possible to build a lineageos ROM from source, mostly. There are still some binary blobs and it's true that virtually no one has the time to rigorously audit the entire source tree themselves anyway, but technically you do not absolutely have to trust a giant ROM binary that their auto-builder spit out.
I've been using DDG for about 2 years now and have rarely needed to resort to a google search in this time. A few of the cases for google were funnily were when I was trying to lookup someone and get their email address.
I do full-stack programming: java, Node.js react, angular, redux for my day job and dabble in a bit of C++ outside of work as well.
It seems to be /very/ slow to load, google and ddg both seem to load in < 1s where startpage averages around 3-5 seconds, I wonder if it provides any advantages over say using a grease monkey userscript to strip the tracking?
Which is the right reaction, but you can read up on them; what other source of knowledge can we depend on other than that of people articulating their cause and others who substantiate those claims?
DDG has a bang for a lot of things, because it's trivial to implement them (they just redirect you to <page.com>/<something>?q=<your_search_term_here), and trivial to make a suggestion.
Most of these are fine replacements, but some are not, and that's the reason I, and I imagine many more people, stay with google.
google maps is great. apple maps is much worse with searching, and shops etc, especially outside the US.
openstreetmap is very cool and I use it every now and then, and I wish it becomes the standard online map, but it needs more care or something, I don't know.
I agree but I wish "quality of results" and "quality of UI" were not intimately linked in software.
Google has NO idea how to do UI these days. To simply plot a course to one of my designated "favorite" places (i.e. probably what I need most often), I counted: FIVE taps, interspersed with staring at menus to find what to tap, before the driving directions appear. In a maps app. Frankly the quality of their mapping is the only compelling thing these days.
> openstreetmap is very cool and I use it every now and then, and I wish it becomes the standard online map, but it needs more care or something, I don't know.
So the obvious open source answer: Why not help make it good yourself! Add data!
More serious response: What do you find "missing" in OSM?
The article leads with "Google trackers" but there's no mention of how to block Google's tracking services... I get it's somewhat outside the scope of the article but seems relevant.
I don't want to directly block ads, only tracking, so I use ghostery instead of an ad-blocker. Most ads are also blocked, but it is because the sites chose to use ad networks that also track me, not because I am trying to take away their way of making money
Do you mean feasible to block Google tracking, or feasible for Google to track you via it's analytics and sharing tools? If it's the former, Ghostery and other similar browser extensions/addons will suffice.
this one surprised me to say the least. It's like jumping from the dragon's mouth into the lion's pit. Both are not good options for privacy, you have no knowledge of what Apple collects and what it does with your data either and it basically requires you to have an iTunes account. At least on Android you can install other app stores like Freedroid which are not linked to any major vendor.
This is not the point. The reason why they don't want you to use Google is based on privacy reasons. Quote from the beginning of the article:
> This means they are not only tracking what you search for, they're also tracking which websites you visit, and using all your data for ads that follow you around the internet
Apple may be doing the exact same thing as well, so they should not recommend Apple on the same principle. Otherwise it's just preposterous.
Well, I can guarantee you that Apple doesn't follow you all over the Internet like Google does (edit: and Facebook with its like buttons and commenting platform, probably to lesser extent than Google's analytics and ads). Presumably they're also not making money from your traffic (we can't prove it neither way).
I've gone very far in limiting what Google has on me. But if my goal was simply to ditch Google completely, iOS is a completely valid point. So is Vimeo.
It seems that you are hardly going out of the loop by searching for stuff on an iOS device. Google still ends up serving the results and collecting information on you. And by default Safari does not block ads that track you either.
Nope. In that article, it says that Google is paying them to remain the default search provider (exactly what Mozilla used to do with Firefox).
Definitely different than Apple "selling search requests". If you switch your search provider to anything non-Google, (presumably) Google is not going to get your search requests.
> You are aware that Apple is selling your search requests to Google right?
This way of stating that Google pays to be the default search engine in Safari is inaccurate at best or disingenuous at worst. Phrasing it as you did makes it sound like Apple is hiding the fact that you're using Google and surreptitiously passing on your search information to Google.
Sure, one could argue that Apple should use a different engine by default and forgo that $3 billion. That certainly would be something. What's the trade off for them? At this point what major search engine doesn't track? (Yes, DuckDuckGo doesn't, and I use it as my default, but I also think people can reasonably disagree whether it's a major search engine, and I also recognize that the results aren't always as good as Google.) Apple does make it dirt simple to change the default, and doesn't nag you after you've changed it.
There is no single good phone option for privacy minded people in the U.S. at the moment, but Apple has definitely shown themselves to be the lesser of two privacy evils.
At least Apple stood up to the FBI when they wanted an encryption backdoor.
I hope you're not using a potential bug as evidence of malfeasance.
There's really no argument here. Google is the world's #1 internet activity-tracking organization.
Apple is a hardware company that has data retention policies roughly somewhere around what one would expect for the pervasiveness of it's technology. I don't have to like either, but I'd be a fool to think that we're talking about equal amounts of intrusion.
Just what Google could do with the same amount of phone tracking, tied to all the other information it gathers from the multitude of other gathering apparatuses it operates makes an Andriod the less privacy minded option.
> I hope you're not using a potential bug as evidence of malfeasance.
Is it a bug though, or a feature? On Windows 10 regular updates do the exact same thing and revert your privacy settings back to default, as far as I know.
> Just what Google could do with the same amount of phone tracking, tied to all the other information it gathers from the multitude of other gathering apparatuses it operates makes an Andriod the less privacy minded option.
You can use Android outside of the Google ecosystem. I have Firefox as my main browser on Android, and I dont use Google Play stores, while iOS gives you no option to use alternatives.
In Windows 10, it is also a potential bug, rather than evidence of malfeasance. As someone who works with Windows a lot, proving malicious intent on their part requires solid evidence: We already have tons of solid evidence of incompetence and poorly tested software. ;)
Is it that hard to keep existing settings, or is it just that there is an obvious incentive for them to revert said settings to spy on you as you use Windows?
If they had nothing to gain, you could claim it's a misunderstanding or a bug, but when there are obvious benefits into letting such things happen, I'd say you should be suspicious as to why it's even occurring.
This is true, but I think we also see a lot of Windows issues that have no obvious gain for Microsoft, to the extent that it definitely seems like incompetence is a common source for issues over malfeasance. It is possible Microsoft is vastly smarter than I give them credit and has carefully buried their malfeasance in their incompetence, but I don't think we have any evidence of nearly that much cleverness on Microsoft's part any time recently. ;)
No, no you wouldn't because there's a legal precedent saying that any data stored outside your home is fair game. It's ridiculous the dystopia we are building, quite frankly. It's a technological tyranny.
> Copperhead sells devices that ship open source builds of Android focused on security and privacy without any google server dependencies.
You mean Nexus 6P, the device that many coudln't could trust to not drop their Bluetooth connection to their car's audio system? Or the device that suffers random display and sound issues on a hardware level?
> For people willing to install their own operating systems, LineageOS and AOKP also are solid options.
"willing to install their own OS" saved you from trolling here. Need I remind you however how miniscule that audience is? Shouldn't we strive to make privacy available for all mothers and grandmothers out there as well?
> We don't have to choose the lesser of two evils.
Your life might allow you to go live in a cave without technology, mine doesn't. Good to know your idealism is serviceable in your life but you should realize this isn't the case for most of us.
> We just have to be willing to research options that don't have millions to spend on marketing.
Yeah. Right after I finish my work day and when I only need rest and relaxation. Oh wait.
> At least Apple stood up to the FBI when they wanted an encryption backdoor.
They also gave the FBI the last iCloud backup of the phone (a month before the attack happened), so it's not like they haven't cooperated with the FBI at all in that case. It's just that it wasn't enough to the FBI, and that's where Apple drew the line.
If a company doing business in the US receives a legal warrant from a judge requiring them to turn over information they have access to, pretty much any company has to comply. So this isn't surprising, or even that worrisome that they turned that over. Everyone would.
The trick, of course, to preventing government surveillance is for companies to just not have the data in the first place.
If they have the data, and can supply the data in readable form, they may be legally obligated to provide it. Not much else you can do at that moment, if you're Tim Cook trying to stay out of prison.
Apple is clearly working toward securing that data so they can't supply it in readable form. Hard to reconcile that with excellent usability & UX, but they're solidly heading that way. Encrypting that iCloud backup such that it [mathematically] cannot be used without the Secure Enclave is surely coming. To wit: "here's all the data we have, only the defendant can unlock it, and no we're not building backdoors in."
We need fully encrypted telephony at all times, too. We need to be secure in our [digital] papers and effects and have the same legal protections as though it were a physical item residing in a safe, preferably better than that.
Yes, I know they stated that when it cames on the iPhone 5 [0]. So they probably not.
But they were (and perhaps still are ?) also part of PRISM. So why not be a little paranoid
But I admit my conspiracy theory assumption was written as a statement, sorry about that !
I think people forget Google didn't 'invent" Android and that it is an open source project based on Linux with many outside contributors.
There are open source google-free builds of Android like CopperheadOS which focuses on security and privacy. Many of those security improvements even make it into Google Android builds eventually.
We do have some real choices on hardware that happens to ship with Google Android but Apple devices should not be a consideration if one wants to maintain their ability to have choices.
Here's another person looking for an open source OS on mobile phones. Is 1%/30 million users(?) really not enough? All I would like is the ability to make calls, write texts, and perhaps use data occasionally without a multinational corp logging my every packet for eternity/when AI can use it.
Disappointed this list doesn't include Matrix/Riot as an alternative to Hangouts/Allo. Also there are many Google Drive alternatives including Syncthing (p2p), Dropbox, Nextcloud/Owncloud (selfhosted), Sugarsync, SpiderOak, etc.
Crouton leaves ChromeOS in place and running, so I assumed it was out of place for this discussion. I don't know how much the chroot does to mitigate that. I assume, for example, it's still Google's kernel in place?
Money: I really doubt Google profits off the hardware sales at the price points they go for (I'd guess they recoup their costs with ChromeOS), but even if they do that's fine. I'm okay with paying a company for hardware.
Advertising: Strip off the ChromeOS logo or cover it with an EFF or FSF sticker.
Power: Not really giving them any power simply by using their hardware with a Linux distro.
Someone asks you "What device it that?" - "A Chromebook" - "Ah nice, I heard they are good!" - "But I've removed the operating system, replaced the logo and don't use any Google services!" - "Yeah, whatever."
The next day: He buys a Chromebook and uses it with ChromeOS and without a sticker.
That's a ridiculous hypothetical with many opportunities to avoid the unlikely conclusion. If you wanted, you could just say it's "an Acer" or "an Asus", and mention GalliumOS in the same breath.
I like DDG, but I find in general that there are two main problems:
1. It's still much slower than google.
2. The results are still sometimes lacking.
I could probably live with the slowness if the results were more consistently high quality. For example, just the other day I was searching for some specific error message in DDG and it returned 1 (irrelevant) result. Google returned hundreds of good results. In that case it seemed to me that google had indexed a lot of IRC archives and mailing list archives that DDG had not.
I think DDG must be improving. I used to multiple times a day finish a DDG search by adding "!g" to my terms to see if Google was better. Now it's maybe once a week, maybe even less.
I agree. For pretty much anything I do I'm using it without another thought. Even the error messages are coming back well (but I am probably searching simple error messages and not edge-case stuff). Also, hobby (sailing) and around-the-house stuff is coming up great.
I still don't understand their business model though.
I think the point was that you can have completely free WordPress (hosted on wordpress.com), compared to Ghost, which costs money either for your own hosting or for hosted Ghost.
I was using and supporting Google with Maps since the beginning I contribute to Google Maps with Local Partners.
I contributed to Google Maps by creating 3D Building with Sketch up. I will not spit on my own soup.
It's almost always a win-win, that I can't get with any other service (Facebook, apple) on Internet, I still believe in a good way with Google, they made so many thing freely for us, like Books research, Google Ngram Viewer, Google Analytics, etc. Almost everything are free, ok there's some targeting, etc that could be bad but the product produced by Google had real impact on the day to day life. Like no one BIG company product did. (Facebook, twitter, didn't change the world for me.)
Please Google, I want a job in your company. I can do anything.
PS: Why I'm downvoted? Apple fanboy argue a little please I know you don't have brain. Too easy to go down, never go up
I am quite depended on Google and it does not bother me at all. Very much similar way as I was depended with Microsoft years ago (Windows, Office, .NET etc...). I did not love them (in fact I though Bill Gates was quite evil guy) but with tools from Microsoft I was able to do my job just like now I do with different tools from Google.
Today, if Google would suddenly disappear it would affect to my life much more than any other technology company.
yeah Wikipedia is not free... Linux is not free. My comment are free.
I still can't compare Facebook to Google about targeting, ads, or other things that people tell about Google. Facebook give you what? Google always fight for giving product utility. Like Google Maps, they had the balls to change the world. Google earth / Google moon someone? someone us it? yeah but spit on your soup.
Nothing is free in the world. Wikipedia is living of donations, same for most of linux distros.
Google and Facebook are living thanks to the nice value of your data and also thanks to your free contributions.
Yes, you contributed to Google Maps for free, you did get nothing for the time you spent on it, nobody know that you did this work, you get no acknowledgement except maybe an email for which the only goal is to make you do more free work.
All visitors coming to Google Maps are thanking Google for the work you've done. And after all this free hard work, you are still paying for the use of their product with your data.
All the users that have contributed freely, but it's not free.
I contributed and in the return I get free access to the product or advantage. I don't pay. My data worth nothing.
People who think that by paying google to get the pub get a return of money is them who is wrong. Google uses schema but all the people who pay for advertising are those who pay for the service. Not me, not people who participate for free. It is like a concert if people participate voluntarily and the concert is free it is free, even if he knows your name, your schedules. This is unnecessary data.
It's free = you are the product is with Facebook not Google.
If you're looking for another reason to live without Google, look into their demonetization of youtube videos on political lines. This includes the thoughtful Dave Rubin who recently had most of his videos demonetized.
I really don't see switching to iOS an improvement. Not only is it insanely expensive, it's not even necessary.
Android can be used without Google very easily. You can even get one of the hundreds of chinese phones that don't have any Google software whatsoever.
Try using an iPhone without an Apple account.
> I really don't see switching to iOS an improvement.
And you can't technically "switch" to iOS. You have to buy a new device for that, a new phone. On a PC, you can tell people to "switch to Linux" because it does not cost them anything, but phones being what they are now, there is close to no Freedom left to the user to install a different OS.
It is an improvement, because Google is one of the greatest privacy offenders. Almost any company except Facebook and the other tracking-people-for-money would be better than them.
Android is a hopeless cause. If the platform developer's goal is to get all information about you that it can, it's pointless to try software workarounds.
And recommending software developed by Chinese companies for privacy purposes must be a joke.
This is what pushed me to iOS primarily. The simple fact is Google is incentivized directly to spy on you, and (increasingly) Apple is using the fact that they do not spy on you as a differentiator. They make their money on the hardware and via iTunes; they don't sell your data, and oftentimes don't even have access to your data by their own design.
Apple doesn't have 100% of my trust but of the OEM phone makers out their right now, I think by a wide margin they're the most trustworthy.
True, but OTOH iOS's closedness puts you in a weak position where if Apple changes their mind you can't do anything about it. It's annoying, too, because you need the horrific iTunes software and its cert infrastructure as a gateway to your phone.
It's really paradoxical that a closed source O/S is a pro-privacy option vs. Linux-based Android of all things.
Well they've made a first step to de-cluttering iTunes by moving iOS app management out of the thing, as well as a few other bits, so hopefully it will be less of a dumpster fire in the near future.
As to the fact that you're at Apple's mercy, that's true, but I don't see how that's particularly different with Android and Google, the only difference being with Android you often don't get their latest software update. ;)
And yes, definitely a paradox but I think the primary reason is that people tend to think of Android as being a Google product, when it isn't, Google just bought it. If you use pure Android on a rooted device you could probably secure it pretty effectively, except that software updates then become more complicated, plus the process of rooting a phone, while not as complex as jailbreaking an iOS device, is quite challenging and above what the vast, vast majority of users are willing to do.
You've been living in some kind of echo chamber my brother, especially if you think Apple worries about encryption just because they want your privacy. It's only the ubiquitous mobile device OS on the planet. Do you ever want to do something fun with a raspberry pi?
This was one of the reasons I was really sad to see Ubuntu discontinue their phone. It would be nice to have a phone option that could easily install multiple OSes. While Replicant exists it's nowhere near feature parity. I suppose one could use a custom ROM but there are very few phones that work flawlessly with them in my experience. What about options like the ONEPlus phones?
Thanks, must be one of the "go away" bots I keep encountering since my home IP got shitlisted for unclear reasons.
I don't think it's ready for prime time either, but I think it might get to Arch-level usability for a reasonably large set of phones soon. Very promising for middling tinkerers and up IMO.
For a while I've thought about trolling eBay for a PostMarketOS compatible phone, just to keep up with development in a hands-on way. It's cheaper than investing in the Neo900 or the Pyra, though I'm passionate about both of those projects as well.
Are you back on Android now or why do you speak in past tense? If yes, what are the reasons? I'm considering moving to Ubuntu Phone or Sailfish, that's why I'm asking.
Android had all my information already stored in it, and I didn't think the improvements Sailfish's UI made were worth making the switch (although they really were very nice). Also, Ubuntu Phone didn't really impress me much, and I think it's kind of a dead end now.
It was a great party trick to be able to dual-boot my phone, I got a lot of mileage out of that one. But it wasn't much more helpful to me than that.
Bad thing is those Chinese made phones come with their own alternative stuff that worse than Google's, like their own app market etc :(
In China, some phones may annoying user with their own built-in apps or even integrated with AdWare or/and other stuff that will collect your "usage" info. We don't trust those devices in China. But maybe they're better outside? I don't know.
If you want to use Chinese phones as alternative, be picky, use only large international brand, and good luck.
I was hopeful about lots of alternatives, but Firefox OS is dead for now and Sailfish is hard to come by without rooting.
Rooting your phone isn't always possible. Microsoft controls both CyanogenMod, which is often the best opption, and of course Windows Mobile, but in many ways MS is actually more open source friendly than Google nowadays. (and both are obviously way more open than Apple)
Honestly, I'm rooting for Microsoft in the mobile space right now simply because the more competition there is, the more need for cross-platform standards.
But I'm also rooting for Sailfish and Firefox (assuming they try again when Servo is done). They all have interesting pros and cons.
Bizarrely, clicking on "Downloads" for LineageOS takes you to what looks like a bug tracker and is actually a changelog. Yes, you click for your model in the left aside, but it sure takes some figuring out.
https://cve.lineageos.org/kernels is their tracker for CVEs in non-deprecated kernels they ship in officially supported devices: no kernel they ship has 100% of CVEs patched, and both mean and median are about 49% of CVEs patched. And this is before we start even considering the firmware blobs that are shipped that haven't had security updates in years.
IMO the point is using the ecosystem without sacrificing your privacy -- and you have to go through a lot of hoops on Android to achieve it. Hoops the normal non tech-savvy people won't go through.
Using Android without compromising your privacy and using Google services with the same are two radically different things.
Especially because the Google services run on the Google servers and you have to contact them in order to use them. The same is not true for just using Android. However, the thing regarding Google services is true whether you use them on Android or any other system.
That's true. However, just like any other third party library, app may use, but they don't have to. It is up to the developer. It is perfectly fine to develop Android apps that do not use Google Play Services.
In fact, if you want your app to run on Chinese devices or Amazon devices, for example, you have to account for missing Google Play Services.
Also look at the future of their product line and where you'll eventually be upgrading, if you buy in to Apple... I switched back to Android over this.
As far as I know, there is no way to sync contacts/calendar over-the-wire (USB) using Android. That's a major ding if one is trying to avoid all things cloud.
People don't have problem using an Apple account because they're not using that to track you everywhere and then use that against you in ads.
It's the same thing between Chrome vs Firefox. People also don't have a problem with their Firefox account used for syncing. Why? The scope is limited.
If you don't use Google Play as an app store, security quickly becomes an issue. And even if you are using Google Play, the inherent ability for apps to do whatever offers less privacy than the iOS equivalent.
Apple was very much criticized in the earlier days when apps would leak personal data out. They've since focused on giving the users more control about what to share. Android on the other hand, not so much.
I've used Android as my primary phone for a number of years. Privacy and security are some of the reasons that I will only buy Apple phones now. I wish that wasn't the case because I do want the variety of phone choices and the lower cost options. I also do like Android for its other aspect, but security and privacy ranks towards the very top of my criteria.
Why? Mind citing some sources so we can make more informed choices? I've heard this accusation a few times, but there's not a lot of info contradicting Apple's word on how they are using the data they collect.
> "Apple has never worked with any government agency from any country to create a “backdoor” in any of our products or services. We have also never allowed any government access to our servers. And we never will."
IMO Turning over data they have stored in response to government requests while working to reduce the data they have access to is rather different from using it to build profiles about their customers and sell their eyeballs to third parties.
Yes. This text is new from a more recent privacy policy update. They made a big update a couple years ago and their warrant canary disappeared - the text changed to let you read between the lines like you did.. the pot is boiling, HN.
> ... track you everywhere and then use that against you in ads.
This sentiment is really interesting. Thinking that ads are overtly antagonistic, that they are an "attack" of sorts I guess makes sense. And then when Google or FB enables advertisers it's seen as an affront.
I am interested in why there aren't similar levels of vitriol for, say, NBC/ABC/CBS or any TV broadcaster for enabling the ads that they show us.
I think this is a neargroup-fargroup thing. I'm willing to bet that very little of the Hackernews demographic watches enough NBC/ABC/CBS to feel subjugated by their ads, but most of us use Google and Facebook a whole lot.
I can believe it. I haven't owned a TV in many years, and while I do see an ad or two relatively regularly (my parents own a TV), even when I visit them I often never see it on.
Outside of visiting them, I can't even think of any situations where I'd encounter one. We've got TVs in work but they only show static screens with schedules and notifications. No channels. None of my friends own one and I do actively avoid sports bars.
I'm probably in a minority but I don't think I'm extremely unusual. Definitely a fast growing minority at least.
I think it depends on where nnutter lives, and it also depends on his social circle. Since nearly none of my friends have TVs, I can go months without seeing an ad. (I myself do have a TV, but I only watch public broadcast channels that do not have ads except for their own programming.)
It's not the ads themselves so much as the tracking required to target them. When it was just Google showing ads at the top of the search results that matched whatever I just searched for, that was fine and often even helpful.
When Google is tracking where I'm going, my browsing habits, and even where I shop and what I buy, that's when I start to get creeped out about how much they know about me.
If NBC was watching my TV and putting in ads based on every show I've ever watched, I'd be concerned about that, too.
I will raise my hand--Over decades, I've made a conscious effort to reduce, minimize, and when I can, eliminate ads of all kind from my headspace. From little things like ad blocking and not watching TV (yep, I'm one of those guys), to deliberately choosing routes to and from work and other places so as to minimize the number of billboards invading my field of view. I see them as unwanted communications that I do not consent to, similar to how we think of telemarketers and door-to-door solicitors.
The article is called How to Live Without Google. If that is your goal, does an iPhone help with that or not? That doesn't mean it is the only way. Of course you can go without a phone, use a dumbphone, or use Android without Google if you manage to get it to work.
As to why one would want to live without Google, there are many reasons. For one thing you actually pay Apple with real money, not in eyeballs like you do with Google and Facebook as a consumer.
I have an Android phone without a Google account or Google services. It's a pain, and it became more of a pain when local voice dialing went away. But it does work. Mail via IMAP, web via Firefox, SMS via SMS, maps via ZaNavi.
A number of Chinese Android models have been found to contain back doors.
And you CAN use an iPhone without Apple if you jailbreak.
That said, Apple has taken a number of social policy positions and my 3 year old 6 Plus is getting the latest OS this fall, and for my load, the battery life is still well beyond a work days.
It's expensive but I'd end up chucking half a dozen cheap Android phones by now. Ultimately spending the same amount
I know all about walled gardens and don't care. I bought a device with long term intent. So far I've been "rewarded" for the decision
Meanwhile, official Android gadgets are quickly deprecated, leaky dinghy security wise and AOSP is a time consuming PITA
I moved away from Chrome and Firefox since both Google and Mozilla have unapologetically fired employees for thought crimes. Apple's posturing hardly seems better. (I imagine this will resonate more with some than others, so please note that I'm only adding this to explain why Firefox and safari weren't options for me). I tried Brave, but it was too buggy. Finally, I switched to Opera which seems to rival Chrome in most regards while feeling more polished and blocking ads by default.
Brave may be buggy, but I think often it is because it has very strict settings that you can adjust. I was having trouble with it on some sites and tweaked the settings and was all better. It's amazing how much web bug crap and janky javascript is on sites these days!
Interesting that the article offers no alternatives to Google Photos. I know there are options, but they all seem to be far behind in terms of features. Plus, migrating all of my photos out of Google Photos would be pain.
> migrating all of my photos out of Google Photos would be pain
You can export them (incl. meta data) through the regular Google Takeout. From there you just have to upload them again to your new, preferred cloud provider.
I've tried Google Takeout, but I have several hundred gigs of photos, so uploading them elsewhere will be a pain. Plus, wherever I do upload them will be lacking many of the features from Google Photos.
This is my problem. I have hundreds of thousands of photos and takeout is quite a pain to deal with. Anyone know of an alternative to takeout that allows syncing perhaps?
I'm trying to minimize my interaction with google, but I still use google maps and google translate.
Unfortunately Open Street Maps is nearly impossible to use.
And I didn't find any alternatives to translate at all
The main problem I faced with OSM is search. When I enter the name of the street it takes me to the random city which has the street with the same name. Google limits search results to the city I'm currently in
When searching in a city for a street name, the search results should not be a ranking that has a street in a city around the world as its first result.
I've settled on, of all things, Microsoft Translator, for this purpose. Seems to work well enough for my casual needs, and supports a good number of languages.
Of course it can be done, it's whether you want to do it or now.
I use kolabnow which replaces google docs, calendar, gmail, google drive for me. I use Opera with Duckduckgo instead of Chrome and google.com. Of course it's not as pretty and fancy and you have to PAY for it, but it solves my problem.
I don't get these articles, it's not rocket science. It's actually very easy to do. It's just a matter of preference.
Care to provide any reasoning for why you disagree? I think of the three it's fairly obvious that Chrome is the worst offender, if I'm not mistaken anything that is typed into the search bar is fair game to be sent to Google for analysis.
I tried most of that a few months ago. The problems, as many others pointed out, is that instead of being eaten by one monster, you're being nibbled at by a few.
Stuff that worked:
- gmail/calendar -> fastmail. I still miss a few features of the gmail web interface, but in general I'm very happy with the switch.
- reader -> feedbin. Yeah, as if I had a proper choice.
Partial success:
- search -> DuckDuckGo: I find myself hitting !g often enough for more "fuzzy" searches, or ones where I'm looking for German content. Which happens often enough, as I've had wikipedia/imdb shortcuts for ages and so don't need to google that only to click on the first link popping up.
- maps -> Bing/OpenStreetMap: I'm mostly a desktop user when it comes to maps, and find myself using the !bm tag in DDG more and more. Directions are good and it zooms faster on my Linux desktop. Mobile situation ain't that great.
Failed:
- mobile -> LineageOs: I got my old Nexus 4 and put LineageOs on it. But it's hard to get by just with F-Droid apps alone. As a compromise, I'm using a cheap iPhone 5c for most stuff these days. I'm seriously considering ditching smartphones altogether and lugging my Sony reader, Sansa Fuze and an old Nokia flip phone around again...
Yes, I used that. It worked pretty well and the map download features was rather convenient on vacation. Still got lost in Venice, but I won't blame that on the app...
I love OSM (I contribute whenever I can!), and navigation on OsmAnd~ is possible, but Google Maps is far, far easier to use. I really struggle with a Google Maps replacement; I've also tried "Here We Go" but it doesn't hold a candle to GMaps unfortunately
Everything else I strongly prefer OSM though: their maps are (at least around here) way better, esp. if you aren't driving, they are offline, the apps are less laggy, ...
> DuckDuckGo: I find myself hitting !g often enough for more "fuzzy" searches
I find myself doing this, too, from time to time, but I have come to rely on the "bang shortcut" feature for so many other sites. It's a great feature.
To sort of answer your question, I use Fastmail to host my email and contacts, and I self-host Nextcloud, and that has my calendar and tasks. I use Caldav to have Fastmail see my calendar/tasks, and it is entirely transparent to me.
I can also have Fastmail host my calendar/tasks, and that can use caldav as well.
Being "nibbled at by a few" could be beneficial when it comes to privacy. Using many services means no single service has a large amount of data about you.
> - reader -> feedbin. Yeah, as if I had a proper choice.
I don't know about feedbin, but if you're looking for an alternative to reader, inoreader works reasonably well, and doesn't feel like it is missing too many features.
I was mostly talking about having no choice but to move away from Google. There's plenty of choice to move to, and after Old REader, Feedly and TinyTiny RSS I ended up with Feedbin. I could do with a desktop application if I didn't use it from both work and home (don't even care too much about mobile).
I see, I thought you meant the opposite because I had a hard time finding a good replacement myself. I think I tried the 3 others you mentioned and didn't find them suitable to my preferences at the time either.
I've found their handy country toggle switch at the top of the page works better and better for this sort of thing recently.
> Bing/OpenStreetMap
There's also wego.here.com but with the amount of wonderful work that goes into the OSM community, the quality of their data, and the polish of some of the modern SaaS options for devs like Mapbox and Mapzen, it really surprises me that the UX on openstreetmap.org itself remains so basic and... not very useful.
> Mobile situation ain't that great.
In case you're still looking, can't recommend Maps.me highly enough.
I have switched most of my phn usage to laptop. Populate the host file with any number of decent blacklists available on github. Install noscript in Firefox and use it in private mode.
With zeal docs and kiwix a lot of time I spent online has also reduced. And oh yes all news sites have been blocked as they are total waste of my time. I check the reddit most read articles about once or twice a week and that's about it.
It's not hard to keep things private if you want too.
I've used it, and it works. However I ran into an issue where I couldn't use it at my parents' house so I ultimately switched to Syncthing. The biggest differences are Syncthing isn't built directly on top of bittorrent, and opensource.
I guess I can't recommended everyone my setup since it's pretty time consuming, but I started hosting most google services I use myself.
I don't really see a huge difference in using Apple or Google in the end.
I used to just have a Nextcloud setup, which already lets you sync files/contacts/calendar and with additional apps even rss feeds extremely easily.
https://nextcloud.com/
But always sending my stuff across the entire Internet seemed rather unnecessary when my server is in the same Network.
So now I've switched to Syncthing, which worjs pretty much lije Resilio Sync But to be fair the experience of using syncthing is still far from comparable to nextcloud or gdrive. As soon as you want to share single files you end up having to write regex based ignore files and you can't just give someone a link to something.
https://syncthing.net
Then for contacts/calendar I use radicale a tiny python script.
http://radicale.org/
A small raspberry pi seems so far good enough for that.
For messenging I use Matrix/Riot but hosting that on my rpi is probably too much.
Riot allows to use jitsi video conference widgets now aswell.
https://riot.imhttps://matrix.org
I'd also check out yunohost that should allow you to host these things as one click apps and has a complete ldap setup built in.
https://yunohost.org/
Also interesting is searx, which describes itself as a privacy-respecting, hackable metasearch engine.
You could easily host this yourself or use one of the many instances.
https://asciimoo.github.io/searx/
I personally settled for android with lineageos without gapps. I think that android open source apps have come along way and with fdroid they are just as convenient to use (arguably even better than) gstore. And you could still always install yalp, which allows you to download the apk from the gstore without the need of an account, or even with your account to get previously bought apps and update them.
I still use YouTube, but I sync my channel subscriptions over rss feeds and use newpipe on android to watch videos (it even has a picture in picture or play audio in background mode) or on my pc with mpv/youtube-dl (shift - t makes a video stay on top)
Getting to this pointed definitely took time and you need to be somewhat tech savvy.
In the end I still have to rely on nonfree apps like whatsapp since matrix still has no real bridge and probably never will due to the walled in nature of WhatsApp for better or worse.
Oh one last thing, if you really need to track your websites's users behavior I would check out Piwik.
I persobally don't have trouble with analytics and definitely understand that there is often no way around it.
But I think as long as you are the only one I have to trust with that data I can accept that. Everything else gets blocked with umatrix/ublock
https://piwik.org/
But I can't find any good replacement for Google services unfortunately.
Tried Duck Duck Go for a full month, but the returned results weren't as accurate as Google, I missed some of functionalities the search automatically gives to you. I could switch to bing, although I don't know if that would make a huge difference, privacy wise.
I've been researching the Swiss based options personally. Kolab (open source, hosted and enterprise options) and Proton Mail both look like solid options if you don't mind paying a little.
Not the OP, but I try it every year or so and always give up after a few weeks. I've been using DDG again for about a week or so, and the results are still about as bad as I remember. It's fine for really common searches such as finding a company's website that I don't remember the domain name for or getting quick info about popular places or things, but anything even slightly obscure (like "how do I do x with y?") is almost always useless. I very quickly get into the habit of adding "!g" to the majority of my searches.
That said, I'm going to try to keep using DDG this time. Although most of my "important" searches are still going to Google, at least they're not seeing absolutely everything I search for.
I had the same issue with DDG but tried again recently and so far so good. I've gotten used to using the bangs for wikipedia and imdb now. Maybe give it another shot.
I use DDG as my default search engine. Whenever I feel like a search would be a better fit for google I use the !sp flag. The !bang system makes DDG a really nice default search engine IMHO. I'm quite happy with the results that DDG produces. I think it became way better than it was a couple of years ago, when I last tried.
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[ 5.5 ms ] story [ 308 ms ] thread[1] - https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/
Presumably, the question "go for which OS on mobile" refers to now, so Librem's definitely not an answer to the question above, even though it's a marvelous goal.
I actually have more apps available to me on a Windows 10 Mobile device than an Android device with Play disabled. And I'm able to do most everything I need to while sending drastically less information to my Microsoft account than I ever did to Google.
Microsoft still updates every Windows 10 Mobile device monthly with security updates, direct from them, on the second Tuesday of every month. (I got an update for my 2014-era Windows Mobile phone on the 12th, for instance.) In many ways, this means Windows Mobile is still a more secure choice than most Android phones. Microsoft releases the update to all devices on the same day, regardless of OEM.
I can say my phone isn't vulnerable to the BlueBorne thing that came out this week, but most Android users won't be able to speak to that.
* It applies to non-Nexus/Pixel lines (before you say that this is an invalid argument, most of the Windows devices sold are Lumia devices, so presumably, yours is too). * It applies to people who don't change phones every six months (the amount of people I've witnessed updating Galaxy phones every year is equal to the amount of people I've seen upgrading iPhones every year). * It applies to people not using a relatively recent Samsung (https://security.samsungmobile.com/workScope.smsb) or LG (https://lgsecurity.lge.com/security_updates.html) phones.
The only valid security argument is that Windows phones and iPhones have longer support than Google (two years for upgrades to newer versions + one additional year of security updates). That's it. The rest is to blame solely on companies that make Android phones.
Google is the only one out of all three that actually gives everyone a chance of using their OS. Microsoft (from what I could find) is only giving Windows Mobile free to some mobile companies. Apple is not providing that option to anyone.
If the rest of the companies didn't actually try really hard to stand out from the rest of the Android crowd by modifying vanilla Android, we would have a completely different situation.
...which is another reason why I blame OEMs, not Google.
Another security argument for Windows Mobile is actually that while flaws are regularly found and patched in the code due to the shared codebase with Windows desktop, it has a significantly reduced attack surface compared to Windows 10 proper. Nobody invests resources into developing exploits for Windows 10 Mobile, so it's exceedingly unlikely for any to be out there. Security by obscurity is not something you should rely on (I rely on monthly patches), but it does help.
Blaming OEMs for Android's update woes relies on some significant misconceptions. First and foremost, every OEM that ships Android devices with Google Play has to sign an agreement binding them to a truly incredible number of terms for how the platform operates and what is on the phone (this is known as the Google MADA). This spans everything from requiring Google's approval to release products to which apps must be preinstalled and set as default on each new device. If Google wished to control updates, they would.
Bear in mind that many OEMs offer stock Android or as close to stock Android as possible: If Google was willing to handle updates directly for Android devices, at least a few OEMs would've opted in already. The reality is that creating and testing releases for Android devices is an expensive proposition that Google wants no part in. The way Android devices update was designed and developed by Google, and the position that Google is not responsible for it seems indefensible.
This is ridiculuous and if you're over 16, you should be ashamed of yourself. Frequenting HN and using such teen/vague talk is not constructive.
iCloud is not secure. That's an accepted fact by now. If you don't sync stuff to iCloud, your iPhone's local data is much more secure than in any Android device. This is also a fact. Reference: the "Storage" permission in Android; once you give it to an app, it can scan your entire device; as a comparison, an iDevice storage permission only allows it access to its sandboxed storage).
Is it? (accepted as fact)
Doesn't that make it an accepted fact?
I mean, I do maintain Apple is more privacy-friendly than Google but IMO iCloud leaves a lot to be desired still.
And you have to trust a binary from a "nightly" build hosted on who knows where for your model - There's so much possibility for stuff to happen I'm not sure it's even a good recommendation to make.
I do full-stack programming: java, Node.js react, angular, redux for my day job and dabble in a bit of C++ outside of work as well.
Looks like DDG has a bang for it, too: https://duckduckgo.com/bang?q=startpage
Google has NO idea how to do UI these days. To simply plot a course to one of my designated "favorite" places (i.e. probably what I need most often), I counted: FIVE taps, interspersed with staring at menus to find what to tap, before the driving directions appear. In a maps app. Frankly the quality of their mapping is the only compelling thing these days.
So the obvious open source answer: Why not help make it good yourself! Add data!
More serious response: What do you find "missing" in OSM?
this one surprised me to say the least. It's like jumping from the dragon's mouth into the lion's pit. Both are not good options for privacy, you have no knowledge of what Apple collects and what it does with your data either and it basically requires you to have an iTunes account. At least on Android you can install other app stores like Freedroid which are not linked to any major vendor.
While I do agree that Apple is no better at preserving privacy, it doesn't fit the scope of this article.
> This means they are not only tracking what you search for, they're also tracking which websites you visit, and using all your data for ads that follow you around the internet
Apple may be doing the exact same thing as well, so they should not recommend Apple on the same principle. Otherwise it's just preposterous.
I've gone very far in limiting what Google has on me. But if my goal was simply to ditch Google completely, iOS is a completely valid point. So is Vimeo.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/14/google-paying-apple-3-billio...
It seems that you are hardly going out of the loop by searching for stuff on an iOS device. Google still ends up serving the results and collecting information on you. And by default Safari does not block ads that track you either.
Definitely different than Apple "selling search requests". If you switch your search provider to anything non-Google, (presumably) Google is not going to get your search requests.
This way of stating that Google pays to be the default search engine in Safari is inaccurate at best or disingenuous at worst. Phrasing it as you did makes it sound like Apple is hiding the fact that you're using Google and surreptitiously passing on your search information to Google.
Sure, one could argue that Apple should use a different engine by default and forgo that $3 billion. That certainly would be something. What's the trade off for them? At this point what major search engine doesn't track? (Yes, DuckDuckGo doesn't, and I use it as my default, but I also think people can reasonably disagree whether it's a major search engine, and I also recognize that the results aren't always as good as Google.) Apple does make it dirt simple to change the default, and doesn't nag you after you've changed it.
At least Apple stood up to the FBI when they wanted an encryption backdoor.
Only for data physically stored on your phone, but you don't know what they do with your data stored/hosted on their cloud services.
There's really no argument here. Google is the world's #1 internet activity-tracking organization.
Apple is a hardware company that has data retention policies roughly somewhere around what one would expect for the pervasiveness of it's technology. I don't have to like either, but I'd be a fool to think that we're talking about equal amounts of intrusion.
Just what Google could do with the same amount of phone tracking, tied to all the other information it gathers from the multitude of other gathering apparatuses it operates makes an Andriod the less privacy minded option.
Is it a bug though, or a feature? On Windows 10 regular updates do the exact same thing and revert your privacy settings back to default, as far as I know.
> Just what Google could do with the same amount of phone tracking, tied to all the other information it gathers from the multitude of other gathering apparatuses it operates makes an Andriod the less privacy minded option.
You can use Android outside of the Google ecosystem. I have Firefox as my main browser on Android, and I dont use Google Play stores, while iOS gives you no option to use alternatives.
If they had nothing to gain, you could claim it's a misunderstanding or a bug, but when there are obvious benefits into letting such things happen, I'd say you should be suspicious as to why it's even occurring.
It's a bug.
For people willing to install their own operating systems, LineageOS and AOKP also are solid options.
We don't have to choose the lesser of two evils. We just have to be willing to research options that don't have millions to spend on marketing.
You mean Nexus 6P, the device that many coudln't could trust to not drop their Bluetooth connection to their car's audio system? Or the device that suffers random display and sound issues on a hardware level?
> For people willing to install their own operating systems, LineageOS and AOKP also are solid options.
"willing to install their own OS" saved you from trolling here. Need I remind you however how miniscule that audience is? Shouldn't we strive to make privacy available for all mothers and grandmothers out there as well?
> We don't have to choose the lesser of two evils.
Your life might allow you to go live in a cave without technology, mine doesn't. Good to know your idealism is serviceable in your life but you should realize this isn't the case for most of us.
> We just have to be willing to research options that don't have millions to spend on marketing.
Yeah. Right after I finish my work day and when I only need rest and relaxation. Oh wait.
They also gave the FBI the last iCloud backup of the phone (a month before the attack happened), so it's not like they haven't cooperated with the FBI at all in that case. It's just that it wasn't enough to the FBI, and that's where Apple drew the line.
The trick, of course, to preventing government surveillance is for companies to just not have the data in the first place.
Apple is clearly working toward securing that data so they can't supply it in readable form. Hard to reconcile that with excellent usability & UX, but they're solidly heading that way. Encrypting that iCloud backup such that it [mathematically] cannot be used without the Secure Enclave is surely coming. To wit: "here's all the data we have, only the defendant can unlock it, and no we're not building backdoors in."
Oh, wait...
But I admit my conspiracy theory assumption was written as a statement, sorry about that !
[0] https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2013/09/10Apple-Announces-iPh...
There are open source google-free builds of Android like CopperheadOS which focuses on security and privacy. Many of those security improvements even make it into Google Android builds eventually.
We do have some real choices on hardware that happens to ship with Google Android but Apple devices should not be a consideration if one wants to maintain their ability to have choices.
But they did acquire the company that did.
Many (not all) of them can be reflashed with a ROM that allows for a mainstream Linux distro to be installed. https://johnlewis.ie/custom-chromebook-firmware/rom-download...
Advertising: Strip off the ChromeOS logo or cover it with an EFF or FSF sticker.
Power: Not really giving them any power simply by using their hardware with a Linux distro.
The next day: He buys a Chromebook and uses it with ChromeOS and without a sticker.
1. It's still much slower than google. 2. The results are still sometimes lacking.
I could probably live with the slowness if the results were more consistently high quality. For example, just the other day I was searching for some specific error message in DDG and it returned 1 (irrelevant) result. Google returned hundreds of good results. In that case it seemed to me that google had indexed a lot of IRC archives and mailing list archives that DDG had not.
I still don't understand their business model though.
This is inaccurate as this is not the only option. You can still download the source and run an instance on your own server.
https://docs.ghost.org/docs/hosting
I was using and supporting Google with Maps since the beginning I contribute to Google Maps with Local Partners.
I contributed to Google Maps by creating 3D Building with Sketch up. I will not spit on my own soup.
It's almost always a win-win, that I can't get with any other service (Facebook, apple) on Internet, I still believe in a good way with Google, they made so many thing freely for us, like Books research, Google Ngram Viewer, Google Analytics, etc. Almost everything are free, ok there's some targeting, etc that could be bad but the product produced by Google had real impact on the day to day life. Like no one BIG company product did. (Facebook, twitter, didn't change the world for me.)
Please Google, I want a job in your company. I can do anything.
PS: Why I'm downvoted? Apple fanboy argue a little please I know you don't have brain. Too easy to go down, never go up
I still can't compare Facebook to Google about targeting, ads, or other things that people tell about Google. Facebook give you what? Google always fight for giving product utility. Like Google Maps, they had the balls to change the world. Google earth / Google moon someone? someone us it? yeah but spit on your soup.
Google and Facebook are living thanks to the nice value of your data and also thanks to your free contributions.
Yes, you contributed to Google Maps for free, you did get nothing for the time you spent on it, nobody know that you did this work, you get no acknowledgement except maybe an email for which the only goal is to make you do more free work.
All visitors coming to Google Maps are thanking Google for the work you've done. And after all this free hard work, you are still paying for the use of their product with your data.
I contributed and in the return I get free access to the product or advantage. I don't pay. My data worth nothing.
People who think that by paying google to get the pub get a return of money is them who is wrong. Google uses schema but all the people who pay for advertising are those who pay for the service. Not me, not people who participate for free. It is like a concert if people participate voluntarily and the concert is free it is free, even if he knows your name, your schedules. This is unnecessary data.
It's free = you are the product is with Facebook not Google.
You are the product with both Facebook and Google.
I find it bizarre that you can't see this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=19&v=q4D0TBPd3JU
And you can't technically "switch" to iOS. You have to buy a new device for that, a new phone. On a PC, you can tell people to "switch to Linux" because it does not cost them anything, but phones being what they are now, there is close to no Freedom left to the user to install a different OS.
Android is a hopeless cause. If the platform developer's goal is to get all information about you that it can, it's pointless to try software workarounds.
And recommending software developed by Chinese companies for privacy purposes must be a joke.
Apple doesn't have 100% of my trust but of the OEM phone makers out their right now, I think by a wide margin they're the most trustworthy.
It's really paradoxical that a closed source O/S is a pro-privacy option vs. Linux-based Android of all things.
As to the fact that you're at Apple's mercy, that's true, but I don't see how that's particularly different with Android and Google, the only difference being with Android you often don't get their latest software update. ;)
And yes, definitely a paradox but I think the primary reason is that people tend to think of Android as being a Google product, when it isn't, Google just bought it. If you use pure Android on a rooted device you could probably secure it pretty effectively, except that software updates then become more complicated, plus the process of rooting a phone, while not as complex as jailbreaking an iOS device, is quite challenging and above what the vast, vast majority of users are willing to do.
You've been living in some kind of echo chamber my brother, especially if you think Apple worries about encryption just because they want your privacy. It's only the ubiquitous mobile device OS on the planet. Do you ever want to do something fun with a raspberry pi?
I don't think it's ready for prime time either, but I think it might get to Arch-level usability for a reasonably large set of phones soon. Very promising for middling tinkerers and up IMO.
Are you back on Android now or why do you speak in past tense? If yes, what are the reasons? I'm considering moving to Ubuntu Phone or Sailfish, that's why I'm asking.
It was a great party trick to be able to dual-boot my phone, I got a lot of mileage out of that one. But it wasn't much more helpful to me than that.
They will probably support the upcoming Pixel 2 as well.
In China, some phones may annoying user with their own built-in apps or even integrated with AdWare or/and other stuff that will collect your "usage" info. We don't trust those devices in China. But maybe they're better outside? I don't know.
If you want to use Chinese phones as alternative, be picky, use only large international brand, and good luck.
Rooting your phone isn't always possible. Microsoft controls both CyanogenMod, which is often the best opption, and of course Windows Mobile, but in many ways MS is actually more open source friendly than Google nowadays. (and both are obviously way more open than Apple)
Honestly, I'm rooting for Microsoft in the mobile space right now simply because the more competition there is, the more need for cross-platform standards.
But I'm also rooting for Sailfish and Firefox (assuming they try again when Servo is done). They all have interesting pros and cons.
https://cve.lineageos.org/kernels is their tracker for CVEs in non-deprecated kernels they ship in officially supported devices: no kernel they ship has 100% of CVEs patched, and both mean and median are about 49% of CVEs patched. And this is before we start even considering the firmware blobs that are shipped that haven't had security updates in years.
I'll tell that to my mother. I am sure she will agree. Right after she finishes laughing.
No, it's not "very easily". It's not even "easily".
Sure, you will be not able to use Google apps, but that's the point, right?
Especially because the Google services run on the Google servers and you have to contact them in order to use them. The same is not true for just using Android. However, the thing regarding Google services is true whether you use them on Android or any other system.
In fact, if you want your app to run on Chinese devices or Amazon devices, for example, you have to account for missing Google Play Services.
(edit: i should add i'm referring to macos)
You can use CalDav and CardDav with a non-Google online service like Fastmail.
It's the same thing between Chrome vs Firefox. People also don't have a problem with their Firefox account used for syncing. Why? The scope is limited.
If you don't use Google Play as an app store, security quickly becomes an issue. And even if you are using Google Play, the inherent ability for apps to do whatever offers less privacy than the iOS equivalent.
Apple was very much criticized in the earlier days when apps would leak personal data out. They've since focused on giving the users more control about what to share. Android on the other hand, not so much.
I've used Android as my primary phone for a number of years. Privacy and security are some of the reasons that I will only buy Apple phones now. I wish that wasn't the case because I do want the variety of phone choices and the lower cost options. I also do like Android for its other aspect, but security and privacy ranks towards the very top of my criteria.
I would not be so sure about that..
(it's from 2011-2015, but still...)
> "Apple has never worked with any government agency from any country to create a “backdoor” in any of our products or services. We have also never allowed any government access to our servers. And we never will."
IMO Turning over data they have stored in response to government requests while working to reduce the data they have access to is rather different from using it to build profiles about their customers and sell their eyeballs to third parties.
This sentiment is really interesting. Thinking that ads are overtly antagonistic, that they are an "attack" of sorts I guess makes sense. And then when Google or FB enables advertisers it's seen as an affront.
I am interested in why there aren't similar levels of vitriol for, say, NBC/ABC/CBS or any TV broadcaster for enabling the ads that they show us.
Outside of visiting them, I can't even think of any situations where I'd encounter one. We've got TVs in work but they only show static screens with schedules and notifications. No channels. None of my friends own one and I do actively avoid sports bars.
I'm probably in a minority but I don't think I'm extremely unusual. Definitely a fast growing minority at least.
8+ years ago, when you were still seeing TV ads, were you feeling as attacked by TV broadcasters as you are by Google/FB today?
When Google is tracking where I'm going, my browsing habits, and even where I shop and what I buy, that's when I start to get creeped out about how much they know about me.
If NBC was watching my TV and putting in ads based on every show I've ever watched, I'd be concerned about that, too.
As to why one would want to live without Google, there are many reasons. For one thing you actually pay Apple with real money, not in eyeballs like you do with Google and Facebook as a consumer.
Android is a Google product. :/
And you CAN use an iPhone without Apple if you jailbreak.
That said, Apple has taken a number of social policy positions and my 3 year old 6 Plus is getting the latest OS this fall, and for my load, the battery life is still well beyond a work days.
It's expensive but I'd end up chucking half a dozen cheap Android phones by now. Ultimately spending the same amount
I know all about walled gardens and don't care. I bought a device with long term intent. So far I've been "rewarded" for the decision
Meanwhile, official Android gadgets are quickly deprecated, leaky dinghy security wise and AOSP is a time consuming PITA
You can export them (incl. meta data) through the regular Google Takeout. From there you just have to upload them again to your new, preferred cloud provider.
Photo seems to be part of takeout : https://takeout.google.com/settings/takeout
I have not tried it for photo but it seems like you can download all your albums.
One thing that Google is exemplary at in my experience is in providing an easy way to export all your data if you want to.
It defaults to translating to Russian, which is a bit annoying as it adds an extra step. But still, seems ok.
Though I suppose "Google through Tor" is pretty similar.
I am a map-data contributor and am somewhat blinkered as a result. What's missing or clunky from the perspective of general users?
http://www.bing.com/translator/
I use kolabnow which replaces google docs, calendar, gmail, google drive for me. I use Opera with Duckduckgo instead of Chrome and google.com. Of course it's not as pretty and fancy and you have to PAY for it, but it solves my problem.
I don't get these articles, it's not rocket science. It's actually very easy to do. It's just a matter of preference.
No.
Stuff that worked:
- gmail/calendar -> fastmail. I still miss a few features of the gmail web interface, but in general I'm very happy with the switch.
- reader -> feedbin. Yeah, as if I had a proper choice.
Partial success:
- search -> DuckDuckGo: I find myself hitting !g often enough for more "fuzzy" searches, or ones where I'm looking for German content. Which happens often enough, as I've had wikipedia/imdb shortcuts for ages and so don't need to google that only to click on the first link popping up.
- maps -> Bing/OpenStreetMap: I'm mostly a desktop user when it comes to maps, and find myself using the !bm tag in DDG more and more. Directions are good and it zooms faster on my Linux desktop. Mobile situation ain't that great.
Failed:
- mobile -> LineageOs: I got my old Nexus 4 and put LineageOs on it. But it's hard to get by just with F-Droid apps alone. As a compromise, I'm using a cheap iPhone 5c for most stuff these days. I'm seriously considering ditching smartphones altogether and lugging my Sony reader, Sansa Fuze and an old Nokia flip phone around again...
Everything else I strongly prefer OSM though: their maps are (at least around here) way better, esp. if you aren't driving, they are offline, the apps are less laggy, ...
I find myself doing this, too, from time to time, but I have come to rely on the "bang shortcut" feature for so many other sites. It's a great feature.
I've heard good things about fastmail, but is there a provider that hosts open source calendar software? I think I'd slightly prefer that.
Works perfectly well.
I can also have Fastmail host my calendar/tasks, and that can use caldav as well.
I am not sure if they use any proprietary software though.
You can use Yalp to download free Google Play apps. But you'll still need Google Play Services most of the time.
I don't know about feedbin, but if you're looking for an alternative to reader, inoreader works reasonably well, and doesn't feel like it is missing too many features.
I've found their handy country toggle switch at the top of the page works better and better for this sort of thing recently.
> Bing/OpenStreetMap
There's also wego.here.com but with the amount of wonderful work that goes into the OSM community, the quality of their data, and the polish of some of the modern SaaS options for devs like Mapbox and Mapzen, it really surprises me that the UX on openstreetmap.org itself remains so basic and... not very useful.
> Mobile situation ain't that great.
In case you're still looking, can't recommend Maps.me highly enough.
Curious what features you miss from Gmail?
I don't really see a huge difference in using Apple or Google in the end.
I used to just have a Nextcloud setup, which already lets you sync files/contacts/calendar and with additional apps even rss feeds extremely easily. https://nextcloud.com/
But always sending my stuff across the entire Internet seemed rather unnecessary when my server is in the same Network.
So now I've switched to Syncthing, which worjs pretty much lije Resilio Sync But to be fair the experience of using syncthing is still far from comparable to nextcloud or gdrive. As soon as you want to share single files you end up having to write regex based ignore files and you can't just give someone a link to something. https://syncthing.net
Then for contacts/calendar I use radicale a tiny python script. http://radicale.org/
For rss feeds I've decided to use selfoss https://selfoss.aditu.de/
A small raspberry pi seems so far good enough for that. For messenging I use Matrix/Riot but hosting that on my rpi is probably too much. Riot allows to use jitsi video conference widgets now aswell. https://riot.im https://matrix.org
I'd also check out yunohost that should allow you to host these things as one click apps and has a complete ldap setup built in. https://yunohost.org/
Also interesting is searx, which describes itself as a privacy-respecting, hackable metasearch engine. You could easily host this yourself or use one of the many instances. https://asciimoo.github.io/searx/
I personally settled for android with lineageos without gapps. I think that android open source apps have come along way and with fdroid they are just as convenient to use (arguably even better than) gstore. And you could still always install yalp, which allows you to download the apk from the gstore without the need of an account, or even with your account to get previously bought apps and update them. I still use YouTube, but I sync my channel subscriptions over rss feeds and use newpipe on android to watch videos (it even has a picture in picture or play audio in background mode) or on my pc with mpv/youtube-dl (shift - t makes a video stay on top)
Getting to this pointed definitely took time and you need to be somewhat tech savvy. In the end I still have to rely on nonfree apps like whatsapp since matrix still has no real bridge and probably never will due to the walled in nature of WhatsApp for better or worse.
Oh one last thing, if you really need to track your websites's users behavior I would check out Piwik. I persobally don't have trouble with analytics and definitely understand that there is often no way around it. But I think as long as you are the only one I have to trust with that data I can accept that. Everything else gets blocked with umatrix/ublock https://piwik.org/
But I can't find any good replacement for Google services unfortunately.
Tried Duck Duck Go for a full month, but the returned results weren't as accurate as Google, I missed some of functionalities the search automatically gives to you. I could switch to bing, although I don't know if that would make a huge difference, privacy wise.
Like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG#Compromised_machines?
That said, I'm going to try to keep using DDG this time. Although most of my "important" searches are still going to Google, at least they're not seeing absolutely everything I search for.