> “These electronic media searches have produced information used to combat terrorism, violations of export controls, and convictions for child pornography, intellectual property rights violations and visa fraud,”
One thing people don't realise is that it's very difficult to be completely sure that all the data cached in your device is completely legal in every country. The best is to travel with wiped out devices and load them on the other side.
Business idea : service that backs up your whole phone, like an image of the disk, then you wipe the phone and "install" the image from the services cloud. It could maybe be doable on androids, or only rootes phones.
The easiest modern machines to wipe and restore are probably Chromebooks.
I often recommend Chromebooks for corporate travel, especially for companies using Google Apps in the first place. It also helps protect against laptop theft. Plus, they're typically light and fairly inexpensive.
Of course, this assumes that you trust Google with your data.
> In March, Joseph B. Maher, the acting general counsel for the agency [the Department of Homeland Security], defended the practice in a USA Today opinion piece. “These electronic media searches have produced [...] convictions for child pornography, intellectual property rights violations...
How are child pornography or IP rights violations a matter of national security? If they are then anything is -- which is probably their idea, but they shouldn't be let run with it.
Yeah because physical searches at the border has any effect on that.
With that logic anything passing the border is a cause for "national security" but then the term has been washed up and basically useless. Bringing small stolen goods, like candy lifted from a store, across the border is not a national security concern.
You could, but not in this case. The quantity of child pornography that enters the US via the internet (if it isn't produced there in the first place) most likely dwarfs the amount that is brought in on laptops.
Of course. Besides they can say that pedophile is a criminal so she/he might also want to bomb the capital. Or something.
Another stretch I know of is someone who is a US-citizen but did not want to give out their laptop password. So they try to wait him out at the airport for as long as they can - 8 hours I believe. No water (I mean who knows maybe you can build a bomb from water) no ability to stand up or walk (you might run). Sit in one spot for 8 hours. After which he still didn't want to give out the password and they had to let him in because he is USC and 8 hours ran out. So guess what they did - they packed him in a car and drove him to another airport (!!!) and told him the 8-hour clock resets (first amendment supposedly does not apply to airports on any ports of entry). After 2 hours the officer smiled and told him they can do it endlessly, because they will just come back to the previous airport. My friend gladly gave up password and was let go 45 minutes later.
Edit: no, my friend has not been anywhere with this. I asked him about this, he said that he is afraid of going anywhere since he had whole laptop hard drive with music that he cannot prove (anymore??) he has bought it, so it might be assumed illegal downloads. Its been almost 2 years. I think he moved on.
That sounds as if some crimes were committed against your friend. He/she should definitely speak up or go to the press or a lawyer with this. If substantiated this would be a pretty big deal.
China is a growing economy and will surpass the US GDP soon, so theres plenty more of the world to do business with, if people want to avoid the hassle of being a suspect or set up by earlier phishing trips.
Remember US Mil drones only target the mobile phone's the intel is still not good enough to know if the target is still in possession of the phone. Same applies elsewhere especially when considering hackers could be phishing for spook capabilities over the decades after all what hacker wouldnt like to hack the spooks to establish fact from fiction?
They don't. The digital rights violation is a keyword for big-corps and the child pornogragphy is the mother of catch-all-end-discussion subject when supporting positions that are not possible to support rationally otherwise.
Homeland Security runs borders and borders have import controls, so preventing child porn from crossing the border is certainly within their purview. That's not in question.
The issue is more about whether they are casting too wide a net. It used to be we only carried suitcases across borders, but now it's our whole digital lives -- every picture we've ever taken, every account we own, trade secrets, etc. That type of invasive search should probably require a warrant.
> Homeland Security runs borders and borders have import controls, so preventing child porn from crossing the border is certainly within their purview. That's not in question.
Not a USian, so I may be wrong, but aren't Homeland Security and Customs separate organizations? Preventing certain imports like counterfeits or IP-violating material seems more of a Customs thing to me.
> How are child pornography or IP rights violations a matter of national security? If they are then anything is -- which is probably their idea, but they shouldn't be let run with it
Those child pornography cases probably never existed at all. But when you have to justify something that has a direct impact on civil liberties, and can not claim that this is against terrorism (because the claim would be clearly debunked too quickly, like the ridiculous claims that TSA prevented actual terrorism acts), child pornography and fight against pedophilia is probably your second best lie.
And you wouldn't like to protect pedophiles, isn't it ?
I dont understand that behavior - what if I just send the device via fedex/dhl? It will cross the border unchecked and I can pick it up on the other side.
?? Who told you packages are not checked? Of course they are. Twice I ordered harddrive from USA to be shipped to Europe (10TBs are much cheaper than buying in EU) and twice it had attached huge brochure that my electronic device was inspected and images might be done and while they don't believe they damaged it, if I have issues with it, I should call.
They can image the device, or possibly even refuse it entry if they can't read the contents, but they cannot detain, harass or otherwise coerce the owner of said device while it's in the mail. Mailing an encrypted hard drive is likely reasonably safe with regard to unauthorized access to its contents.
The last time I have been searched for written or published contraband was at the East German border.
East Germany was an all-encompassing state with the desirable (parasitic) jobs being government jobs.
"Western" governments currently expand in similar fashion. Unless someone works in a hot field like web development, government jobs are the safest bet with guaranteed pensions.
The government takes care of its own, inventing useless work for the people on its payroll and sucking dry the productive parts of the population.
Out of curiosity, as I have not crossed the us border for a while, what are currently the odds that an average HN reader is required to disclose computer/phone contents? These discussions and news kind of imply that it would be quite common, but somehow it feels unbelievable that it would be that common...
I travel to the US frequently as do many of my colleagues. I've never heard of such a case. You usually see the door to the interview rooms and last time I could see it while I was in the queue, I believe no one except employees entered it while at least 200 people entered the country.
Not significant but would assume it's very rare. Considering how many people enter the country each day, even a 1:10000 chance would produce a lot of cases.
These are authoritarian fascist policies that are brazenly infringing on people's personal effects, content whether a diary, phone or laptop is your inviolable personal effect.
They can search the physical books and laptops all they want but not the content, that is crossing a huge red line that simply cannot be crossed in any free state and raises serious questions about our constitution, the rule of law and the court system.
When it comes to China or Russia we automatically presume the moral high ground to point fingers, but then do not detect the contradiction in this quiet acquiescence or being reduced to seeking workarounds in chrome books and such.
There is a dissonance of principles observed more in posturing and grandstanding that makes criticisms of other states not a commitment to principle but the worst kind of denial and jingoism.
It really is time to stop reacting and quietly reflect on what we have become. Are we simply a society of income and access to products with everything else open to expediency and pretension.
38 comments
[ 3.8 ms ] story [ 101 ms ] threadOne thing people don't realise is that it's very difficult to be completely sure that all the data cached in your device is completely legal in every country. The best is to travel with wiped out devices and load them on the other side.
Or just don't cross (American) borders with devices.
I often recommend Chromebooks for corporate travel, especially for companies using Google Apps in the first place. It also helps protect against laptop theft. Plus, they're typically light and fairly inexpensive.
Of course, this assumes that you trust Google with your data.
How are child pornography or IP rights violations a matter of national security? If they are then anything is -- which is probably their idea, but they shouldn't be let run with it.
With that logic anything passing the border is a cause for "national security" but then the term has been washed up and basically useless. Bringing small stolen goods, like candy lifted from a store, across the border is not a national security concern.
Another stretch I know of is someone who is a US-citizen but did not want to give out their laptop password. So they try to wait him out at the airport for as long as they can - 8 hours I believe. No water (I mean who knows maybe you can build a bomb from water) no ability to stand up or walk (you might run). Sit in one spot for 8 hours. After which he still didn't want to give out the password and they had to let him in because he is USC and 8 hours ran out. So guess what they did - they packed him in a car and drove him to another airport (!!!) and told him the 8-hour clock resets (first amendment supposedly does not apply to airports on any ports of entry). After 2 hours the officer smiled and told him they can do it endlessly, because they will just come back to the previous airport. My friend gladly gave up password and was let go 45 minutes later.
Edit: no, my friend has not been anywhere with this. I asked him about this, he said that he is afraid of going anywhere since he had whole laptop hard drive with music that he cannot prove (anymore??) he has bought it, so it might be assumed illegal downloads. Its been almost 2 years. I think he moved on.
Remember US Mil drones only target the mobile phone's the intel is still not good enough to know if the target is still in possession of the phone. Same applies elsewhere especially when considering hackers could be phishing for spook capabilities over the decades after all what hacker wouldnt like to hack the spooks to establish fact from fiction?
The issue is more about whether they are casting too wide a net. It used to be we only carried suitcases across borders, but now it's our whole digital lives -- every picture we've ever taken, every account we own, trade secrets, etc. That type of invasive search should probably require a warrant.
Not a USian, so I may be wrong, but aren't Homeland Security and Customs separate organizations? Preventing certain imports like counterfeits or IP-violating material seems more of a Customs thing to me.
Those child pornography cases probably never existed at all. But when you have to justify something that has a direct impact on civil liberties, and can not claim that this is against terrorism (because the claim would be clearly debunked too quickly, like the ridiculous claims that TSA prevented actual terrorism acts), child pornography and fight against pedophilia is probably your second best lie.
And you wouldn't like to protect pedophiles, isn't it ?
Could you ship it in a large crate? Based on the video below these don't appear to be checked. e.g.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbTOHITC_xY
East Germany was an all-encompassing state with the desirable (parasitic) jobs being government jobs.
"Western" governments currently expand in similar fashion. Unless someone works in a hot field like web development, government jobs are the safest bet with guaranteed pensions.
The government takes care of its own, inventing useless work for the people on its payroll and sucking dry the productive parts of the population.
Not significant but would assume it's very rare. Considering how many people enter the country each day, even a 1:10000 chance would produce a lot of cases.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15240781
They can search the physical books and laptops all they want but not the content, that is crossing a huge red line that simply cannot be crossed in any free state and raises serious questions about our constitution, the rule of law and the court system.
When it comes to China or Russia we automatically presume the moral high ground to point fingers, but then do not detect the contradiction in this quiet acquiescence or being reduced to seeking workarounds in chrome books and such.
There is a dissonance of principles observed more in posturing and grandstanding that makes criticisms of other states not a commitment to principle but the worst kind of denial and jingoism.
It really is time to stop reacting and quietly reflect on what we have become. Are we simply a society of income and access to products with everything else open to expediency and pretension.