I guess the people of Catalonia could vote on it and everybody would see which side has the most people in favour. They could do a referendum, or something.
That article just seemed to be grasping for reasons to say no, largely regardless of whether those reasons were logical. Many diverse parties support succession? Must be bad. No one over arching party that has succession as their raison d'être? Must be bad. Minority region doesn't have power to change the constitution (and hence allow a legal referendum)? Must be bad.
Self determination is one of the pillars of democracy, denying this is a slippery slope.
First of all, I want to say upfront that I am a Spaniard who, although is against this referendum, is unhappy with how Spain has historically dealt with this issue, its historical hostility to embracing Catalonia's culture, which is one reason why we have arrived at this juncture.
I would just like to point out what i believe are some of the most misleading statements in the article:
Calling the Guardia Civil a paramilitary force is like calling the carabinieri and gendarmes the same. It is indeed a police force with a military structure. However, it is not at all like the armed force of a violent political party, like, say, the SA.
The constant quoting of the great Orwell is out of context and can be barely justified as an attempt to keep with the missapropriation of the famous book's title. Fortunately, Spain, and Europe, are totally different to what they were like in the 1930s. Spain then was a total mess, with centuries old problems of all sorts coming to a head all at once, in addition to a massive international economic and political crisis, which I accept and understand contributed to Catalonia's drive for independence. It would be like trying to explain Merkel's Germany by quoting from 1930s foreign books about Hitler.
Ok I could go on and on in the same vein ...
Thankfully, as I said, Spain is a very different country now, and although emotions are running high, so far both sides have shown a restraint that would have been unthinkable when Orwell was alive. Something has been learned from history after all.
At the end of the day, this, as is always the case in the real world, is all about power, hearts and minds, propaganda, diplomacy, economy, interests, and, yes, hard power too, although I hope and believe it will not come to that. And the fact is that the spanish state has the upper hand here and just wont let it happen, too much to lose. The independence movement's only hope is to gather a so far lacking foreign support, which is what has allowed other weaker regions to achieve independence. But in those cases, on top of more or less plausible reasons for independence, (ex-Yugoslavia, South Sudan, East Timor, etc) there were attrocities and general mistreatment under comtemporary, not historical, dictatorships that, lets be honest, thankfully, is nowhere to be seen in the matter at hand.
Just one historical note: in the 15th century the kingdom of Aragon, which included Catalonia, was desperate to avoid a French invasion and so came to an agreement with Castile, which is the origin of modern Spain. Do you really believe that the alternative for Catalonia would have been independence? It actually lost a chunk to France anyway, north of the natural border, the Pyrenees, the Cerdagne and Rousillon. Ok but now is now, I know, and, of course, there is much more than this. Nobody cares about real history anyway unless it suits their agenda. This holds for both sides of course.
The referendum is just not the way. For better or worse, the spanish public opinion, unlike the english one (UK would have lost one of its poorest regions, Spain its richest, much more at stake), just isn't ready for this. And even if there was one, and the independentists lost, come on, they would just call a new one every 2 years until they could claim 50.1%. Who would elaborate the census? Who would organize it? What would happen afterwards? This is a very important unresolved issue that the Guardian rightly mentions when it says that the current coalition in Catalonia is a ragtag mix that can only agree on one thing.
It is also important to realize that time is also on the spanish side. The statu quo, although far from ideal, is much more palatable to them. There is none of the emergency of the separatists, who smell a historical opportunity in the wake of the mismanaged financial crisis. Nothing new here btw if we remember that this movement was energized in the aftermath of the huge spanish crisis of 1898, when the bulk of lingering overseas colonies was lost (and where the disconten...
If the Catalans follow the lead of Gandhi they won't need foreign support. If I was a Catalan independence supporter I would advocate for people to pay the pro rata portion of their taxes that would be allocated to the Catalan region directly to the Catalan government (if they are in exile or not). If 40% of Catalans did this, income tax, VAT, etc, then this matter would come to a head within one year. The EU would have to concede or then sanction violence. They can't afford to lock up 40% of the population and they can't afford to lose the revenue. Obviously the money would need to be sent to a repository that was outside of Madrid's or Brussels's reach. CatCoin anyone? Cryptocurrencies might be the modern equivalent of Gandhi's Salt March; remove the state's monopoly control of commerce.
The thing is, and I believe this is key, the relationship is not a colonial one at all, of submission to an alien foreign power. And there is no way the democratic spanish government would react like the colonial british one. Nor would the spanish people tolerate such a heavy handed approach, I dont think there is hatred, just bewilderement. That was also part of a wider process, that of decolonitation. What is going on here isn't anything like that, I think Gandhi's strategy worked partially because of the historical context.
My view obviously is different, I view it as a matter of self determination. To me whether it is a matter of colonialisation is largely immaterial. The reason Gandhi's method works is because it leaves only two options, kill the complainants or acquiesce. Authority comes from submission, if someone does not submit to you then you have no authority over them; your only choice then is to either kill them or let them be. So if a sizeable percentage of Catalans come to the point of willing to risk everything to no longer submit to Madrid then Madrid will have only two options. Whether Brussels would allow the first of those two options is rather obvious. As with the vast majority of things in this life, the most committed wins.
Minority Rules: Why 10 Percent is All You Need [0]
So if you have 40% who are committed to it no matter what then it will happen. The reason I bring up the 40% is because in most recent polls that is the amount that is usually quoted as supporting succession.
A pro-independence article that could do with some balance.
1) A lot of people see bullfighting as anachronistic even if Cataluña may be the first to introduce such rules.
2) 'their King' was a second cousin of the queen of Castile. You have to go back 600 years to find the last of the original lineage on the Aragonese throne.
3) Franco's regime persecuted a great number of people and not just the Catalonians.
4) The Catalan language is one of several languages striving for linguistic prestige - e.g. Galician and Basque. I even saw graffiti in Covadonga, sacred site of the reconquista, bemoaning that none of the signs were in Asturian.
Thank you so much for spreading FUD around my article without actually addressing any element of it, you are just what the Catalans need right now. Did you have anything to say about its content, or did you find it well sourced and accurate?
I just don't find your arguments for separation tell the whole story. I support self-determination but ultimately the strongest argument for independence is that Catalonia has a population of greater than several EU states and could go it alone without federalism.
You mention oppression under Franco. He hated and executed a bunch of people, from anarchists, to PSOE under Largo Caballero, to hard core communists. Other language minorities were not allowed to spread their language either. That was 40 years ago. Do you really blame the rest of the country, today, for the 'sins' of their grandparents?
Old wounds and if your hatred is for "Madrid", they were Republicans - NOT bullfighting fascists.
Galegos and Basques would have equal claim to independence under linguistic autonomy. But I guess I see bilingualism as a blessing rather than a curse. And in that regard the Catalonian government's educational policies have been undoing the historical trauma of Spanish as the "High" language of diglossia. Yet Valencia isn't calling to become a separate country, despite Valenciano being a near-identical language.
I'm not condoning the actions of PP, Rajoy or the Guardia Civil by any means.
What specifically in my well sourced article do you disagree with, most if it is sourced from wikipedia and reputable media sources. What is wrong with my article?
You could have focussed on how Spanish democracy is broken and that Cataluña no longer wants to be part of that - e.g. the 2015-6 elections where no clear winner emerged and the rise of Podemos suggested people were fed up with both PP and PSOE.
But you seem to base your argument on fuelling historical ethnic tensions. I've given you a counterview.
> It is also worth noting that the Spanish own a paramilitary force called the Civil Guard who historically enforced General Franco’s will in the region,
And is a paramilitary force like Italian Carabinieri or French Gendarmerie
When the Spanish Civil War started, Guardia Civil in Barcelona defensed the Generalitat
He should have looked up where and by whom fasces are used
Is he saying that USA, France, Norway uses fascist simbology?
By the way, talking about bullfighting, CiU was so hypocrital that banned bullfighting in Catalonia (goood) but didn't ban Correbous in the parts of Catalonia were they are used.
I told you to shut up because you bring nothing to the conversation except your badly written objections which clearly have no relation to my article except in your head.
If you have any insights that relate to my article, its actual content, or why the Spanish are not fascists, I would love to hear them. Please tell us why my article is wrong.
A person that doesn't know anything about Spain, that writes wrong thing using the word fascism without knowing what it means.
Tell that to my family executed by the real fascists of Franco, interned in Concentration Camps in Germany and France when run away after the defeat in the Civil War.
And tell me that Spanish are now fascists when I have lived the end of the dictatorship and was part of PSUC and I have lived the real fascist coup in 1.981.
Too many people use the word fascist when they don't know shit about fascism
But it is Internet, you can write anything and someone will believe it
What specifically in my well sourced article do you disagree with, most if it is sourced from wikipedia and reputable media sources. What is wrong with my article?
I do not once call the Spanish fascists, you seem to be a little defensive there. Where does my article say that?
Very nice of you to spread disinformation around my posts Oletros, but you are terrible at it. Any fool can see that rather than address my article you prefer to spread FUD.
Did you disagree with any of my well sourced analysis in particular or are you just barking como el perro que eres?
Let me introduce all of you to the 60% people living in Catalonia who are against the independentism movement and who are being forced yes or yes to participate in an illegal referendum or face ostracism. This referendum is not democratic at all.
>> Let me introduce all of you to the 60% people living in Catalonia who are against the independentism
could you please reference this information from a reliable source? After the referendum you will definitely know the real percentage.
>> and who are being forced yes or yes to participate in an illegal referendum
as far as I know, in a referendum you can either choose 'yes' or 'no'. Thus, you're not silenced, but the opposite: invited to express your will. If it's really 60% of the Catalans opposed to the independence, what's the matter then?
You are not Catalan or a resident of the region clearly, which means you don't get to vote. The Spanish do not have a say in Catalan independence and all you have left is violence.
Watch the Guardia Civil show the world how fascist the Spaniards are and remind us of who won the civil war.
What specifically in my well sourced article do you disagree with, most if it is sourced from wikipedia and reputable media sources. What is wrong with my article?
Thats the typical Spanish response. We own you and you cannot declare independence unless we say so, typical Spanish arrogance towards their colonies, we saw it in the Philippines too just before you got thrown out my the Americans.
38 comments
[ 5.2 ms ] story [ 87.0 ms ] threadHere is a more balanced article by a third party which is not is not exactly known for its authoritarian views:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/23/observ...
Found the Spaniard.
Self determination is one of the pillars of democracy, denying this is a slippery slope.
I would just like to point out what i believe are some of the most misleading statements in the article:
Calling the Guardia Civil a paramilitary force is like calling the carabinieri and gendarmes the same. It is indeed a police force with a military structure. However, it is not at all like the armed force of a violent political party, like, say, the SA.
The constant quoting of the great Orwell is out of context and can be barely justified as an attempt to keep with the missapropriation of the famous book's title. Fortunately, Spain, and Europe, are totally different to what they were like in the 1930s. Spain then was a total mess, with centuries old problems of all sorts coming to a head all at once, in addition to a massive international economic and political crisis, which I accept and understand contributed to Catalonia's drive for independence. It would be like trying to explain Merkel's Germany by quoting from 1930s foreign books about Hitler.
Ok I could go on and on in the same vein ...
Thankfully, as I said, Spain is a very different country now, and although emotions are running high, so far both sides have shown a restraint that would have been unthinkable when Orwell was alive. Something has been learned from history after all.
At the end of the day, this, as is always the case in the real world, is all about power, hearts and minds, propaganda, diplomacy, economy, interests, and, yes, hard power too, although I hope and believe it will not come to that. And the fact is that the spanish state has the upper hand here and just wont let it happen, too much to lose. The independence movement's only hope is to gather a so far lacking foreign support, which is what has allowed other weaker regions to achieve independence. But in those cases, on top of more or less plausible reasons for independence, (ex-Yugoslavia, South Sudan, East Timor, etc) there were attrocities and general mistreatment under comtemporary, not historical, dictatorships that, lets be honest, thankfully, is nowhere to be seen in the matter at hand.
Just one historical note: in the 15th century the kingdom of Aragon, which included Catalonia, was desperate to avoid a French invasion and so came to an agreement with Castile, which is the origin of modern Spain. Do you really believe that the alternative for Catalonia would have been independence? It actually lost a chunk to France anyway, north of the natural border, the Pyrenees, the Cerdagne and Rousillon. Ok but now is now, I know, and, of course, there is much more than this. Nobody cares about real history anyway unless it suits their agenda. This holds for both sides of course.
The referendum is just not the way. For better or worse, the spanish public opinion, unlike the english one (UK would have lost one of its poorest regions, Spain its richest, much more at stake), just isn't ready for this. And even if there was one, and the independentists lost, come on, they would just call a new one every 2 years until they could claim 50.1%. Who would elaborate the census? Who would organize it? What would happen afterwards? This is a very important unresolved issue that the Guardian rightly mentions when it says that the current coalition in Catalonia is a ragtag mix that can only agree on one thing.
It is also important to realize that time is also on the spanish side. The statu quo, although far from ideal, is much more palatable to them. There is none of the emergency of the separatists, who smell a historical opportunity in the wake of the mismanaged financial crisis. Nothing new here btw if we remember that this movement was energized in the aftermath of the huge spanish crisis of 1898, when the bulk of lingering overseas colonies was lost (and where the disconten...
So if you have 40% who are committed to it no matter what then it will happen. The reason I bring up the 40% is because in most recent polls that is the amount that is usually quoted as supporting succession.
[0] http://freakonomics.com/2011/07/28/minority-rules-why-10-per...
And what the rule says is that it will spread, not that is enough to declare independence of a territory when 60% of the population is against it.
When the percentage is 60% or more, we can start talking about inevitability
1) A lot of people see bullfighting as anachronistic even if Cataluña may be the first to introduce such rules. 2) 'their King' was a second cousin of the queen of Castile. You have to go back 600 years to find the last of the original lineage on the Aragonese throne. 3) Franco's regime persecuted a great number of people and not just the Catalonians. 4) The Catalan language is one of several languages striving for linguistic prestige - e.g. Galician and Basque. I even saw graffiti in Covadonga, sacred site of the reconquista, bemoaning that none of the signs were in Asturian.
I just don't find your arguments for separation tell the whole story. I support self-determination but ultimately the strongest argument for independence is that Catalonia has a population of greater than several EU states and could go it alone without federalism.
You mention oppression under Franco. He hated and executed a bunch of people, from anarchists, to PSOE under Largo Caballero, to hard core communists. Other language minorities were not allowed to spread their language either. That was 40 years ago. Do you really blame the rest of the country, today, for the 'sins' of their grandparents?
Old wounds and if your hatred is for "Madrid", they were Republicans - NOT bullfighting fascists.
Galegos and Basques would have equal claim to independence under linguistic autonomy. But I guess I see bilingualism as a blessing rather than a curse. And in that regard the Catalonian government's educational policies have been undoing the historical trauma of Spanish as the "High" language of diglossia. Yet Valencia isn't calling to become a separate country, despite Valenciano being a near-identical language.
I'm not condoning the actions of PP, Rajoy or the Guardia Civil by any means.
You could have focussed on how Spanish democracy is broken and that Cataluña no longer wants to be part of that - e.g. the 2015-6 elections where no clear winner emerged and the rise of Podemos suggested people were fed up with both PP and PSOE.
But you seem to base your argument on fuelling historical ethnic tensions. I've given you a counterview.
And is a paramilitary force like Italian Carabinieri or French Gendarmerie
When the Spanish Civil War started, Guardia Civil in Barcelona defensed the Generalitat
> who have fascist symbology in their emblem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces
He should have looked up where and by whom fasces are used
Is he saying that USA, France, Norway uses fascist simbology?
By the way, talking about bullfighting, CiU was so hypocrital that banned bullfighting in Catalonia (goood) but didn't ban Correbous in the parts of Catalonia were they are used.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_on_bullfighting_in_Catalon...
Yap, he know a lot about Spain and Catalonia
If you have any insights that relate to my article, its actual content, or why the Spanish are not fascists, I would love to hear them. Please tell us why my article is wrong.
A person that doesn't know anything about Spain, that writes wrong thing using the word fascism without knowing what it means.
Tell that to my family executed by the real fascists of Franco, interned in Concentration Camps in Germany and France when run away after the defeat in the Civil War.
And tell me that Spanish are now fascists when I have lived the end of the dictatorship and was part of PSUC and I have lived the real fascist coup in 1.981.
Too many people use the word fascist when they don't know shit about fascism
But it is Internet, you can write anything and someone will believe it
I do not once call the Spanish fascists, you seem to be a little defensive there. Where does my article say that?
Did you disagree with any of my well sourced analysis in particular or are you just barking como el perro que eres?
http://unpo.org/nations-peoples
whilst beyond its geopolitical interest also generates a rather nice World map and overlay using only CSS, no JavaScript.
could you please reference this information from a reliable source? After the referendum you will definitely know the real percentage.
>> and who are being forced yes or yes to participate in an illegal referendum
as far as I know, in a referendum you can either choose 'yes' or 'no'. Thus, you're not silenced, but the opposite: invited to express your will. If it's really 60% of the Catalans opposed to the independence, what's the matter then?
No, you won't
By the way, a poll from today in El pais, 82% of the people in Catalonia would defend a LEGAL referendum
Watch the Guardia Civil show the world how fascist the Spaniards are and remind us of who won the civil war.
I don't see any difference between your discourse and the one in Huelva yesterday.
No necesitan permiso de Madrid.
"Catalonia: debunking dishonest arguments in favour of the bogus referendum"
https://medium.com/@tripu/referendum-e53331ddf841