Ask HN: Does reading HN ever make you feel like shit?
It affects me on a more personal level than I'd like to admit, but I'll do anyway as a way to get it out of my system and see what you all think. I'm a lone "founder" of several websites that I finished up to 80%, then left to collect dust, and am now tidying up to display on a resume since I'm essentially out of money. Whenever I come here and read the articles and discussions I feel like my ideas, and myself by extension are absolute shit for several reasons.
1) So many talented people here. I don't know the slightest thing about any other language besides Javascript, PHP, Java (from school), and MySQL. I'm 25. I work on a Windows XP box and use an IDE because I like the code completion. I consider myself damn good at the languages I listed, but I get the impression that people here are damn good at way more than this.
2) HN shows me all these people and ideas that are succeeding. It used to be inspirational, but now it's frightening. I've always been told I'm a smart kid, and that I'll be a millionaire some day, and all of that shit. I see these ideas gaining traction, some of which I could never be able to do myself, some of which I could have done overnight, and I see myself staying still. It's overwhelming.
3) There are people that post here that are so smart. There are people here that can express their ideas so clearly. There are people here that know so much about so many things. And there's me... I'm not really able to contribute much. How am I to believe I'm any good at anything? If you all are to be my competitors, I should just give up now.
At any rate, I'm just curious to see if anybody gets the same feelings of being overwhelmed by the amount of awesomeness that's on this site. Thanks.
208 comments
[ 4.3 ms ] story [ 223 ms ] threadPlease come to the video game industry :) There is always need of someone that knows MySQL, LAMP, etc.
That's actually news to me... interesting. So there's still a lot of demand for web sites/apps created in support of games, or are these technologies being used in less obvious and more embedded ways?
Also MySQL, SQLIte are being used for the caching on the server, and caching locally of the converted data.
PHP has been used for getting few internal sites, but I can't tell much.
So these technologies are not used in the actual games (at least ours), but are used in the internal tools to make them.
But I think any big enough game developer studio would be happy to employ someone with such knowledge. From my narrow (have been for 10 years in the same studio) view - we often need people that do know MySQL, SQL in general, and other things that are not generally needed directly in game development - drivers, monitors (file, network, etc.), web servers, etc.
Just imagine if every PRINT() in your game actually dumps all that info in some server, and does not slow down you. You can do a lot of with that info - it can log what level you are playing, when, who is playing, which build, various settings, what you've killed, what textures were used, etc. Later there might be tool pulling that data and analyzing it.
If it makes you feel any better, my biggest worry about this site is the opposite: that the median awesomeness is decreasing as the number of users increases.
If you want to feel less overwhelmed, try reading the comments starting at the bottom of the page instead of the top.
This should be a preference. Ego-boosting sort.
People who are passionate about what they do have a tendency to stand out (pg makes a similar argument on Amateur section of http://www.paulgraham.com/opensource.html).
If you are passionate enough about software development aspects, most HN articles will not feel overwhelming, as you will be constantly improving on your craft. But then you will know how much more there is to learn. Just don't feel overwhelmed then.
I sometimes feel like I'm dragged into too many directions at the same time. Damn interest. But that's it. I love to spin, reading about 3 or 4 frameworks in 2 or 3 languages serially until I feel something like information satisfaction or I'm getting tired.
I think I actually need the diversity of information. Sort of brain stimulation through information overflow. ;)
But it works. Diversity is very good for the brain, i think it's irrelevant in wich form.
And when you're talking about pragprog: http://pragprog.com/titles/ahptl/pragmatic-thinking-and-lear...
My favourite pragprog book so far.
See, its comments like this that make the OP and others feel bad :)
I suppose I can accept the fact that the majority of people don't represent anything to get flustered about. However, there are people way more talented than me, doing much more important-seeming (that is to say, things that are getting more attention) things, and in general just being more successful than I. I truly mean it when I say "good for them," but it eats away at me. Quarter-life crisis I suppose.
I was on this site as a different name over a year ago and have recently returned. I can tell you that I noticed a pretty significant difference in the quality of users now on this site. There are more low/medium quality comments, and the quips aren't as clever. What's more concerning is the upvote counts on those comments...
That being said, there's no other place I'd rather be.
I come on here and find that the vast majority of people are well below my intelligence level. I find that this site is basically a bunch of talentless wantrepreneurial pundits. I come on here to test my patience with idiotic circlejerks - praise Apple, bash Facebook, on and on. Most people I know with real talent feel similarly about HN. Heck, I even know YC guys who feel this way about it.
Even if this site is mostly "talentless wantrepreneurial pundits," which has some truth to it, you're not the slightest bit overwhelmed at the amount of high quality information here?
This is an incredibly important skill; I've found that it's a lot easier to enjoy life if people like you or at least don't dislike you.
Talking of talent, ping me on duxy786 at google's mail and maybe we can work together!
Although my account isn't very old, I've lurked at HN off and on for quite a while. It is my impression that they are increasing, although maybe I only pay more attention now that I have an account.
I'm curious, what have you accomplished that's so great? Do YOU have any achievements to back up your arrogance?
I'd venture to say that you're actually not that intelligent at all. An intelligent person would realize striking a balance between radiating their inner brilliance and being a modest and kind person is necessary in life. You have clearly not yet learned that lesson.
Intelligence won't get you very far when no one wants to work with you because you're a huge dick to everyone around you.
What comments are you talking about? The ones I see are either retarded, extremely arrogant (but not intelligent), or about average (relative to other comments on this site). From his previous comments, I would guess hes of average intelligence, for this site, but EXTREMELY arrogant. Not really a desirable combination, if you ask me.
also I've seen enough from this username that I think, troll???????????????????????????
Oh, and one thing that you have to learn to become comfortable with (or at least Zen about)...there is always somebody better at something than me.
But yes, I've felt like you do.
There are people here that make me feel inadequate as a programmer. I realize that many - if not most of them happen to be people who live & breathe programming, and solving problems and quenching their thirst for knowledge. This means they're world-class programmers, and used to actually using their brains, but it doesn't mean that they're guaranteed to be considerably more intelligent than I am.
Then there are people like patio11, for example. Whenever this guy says anything, it's always brimming with insight & razor-sharp wit. Now, he's kind of a bummer :)
Yes, Pinky, and there always will be. There's always a faster gunfighter.
I think it's possible to build a news-site that feeds, say the OP, a news feed that he is 'comfortable with'.
In a more general sense, news sites like HN that use up/down are 'dumb' in the sense that they make a crude (but reasonable) approximation to what each individual wants via a simple[1] summation of what the group wants.
[1] unless I'm mistaken
Maybe user-created groups (i.e., subreddits) was simpler and effective.
Not all of the articles are within my technical experience, and some I only barely understand, but I find some seriously mind-blowing things out there.
To the OP...yes. I'm constantly impressed with those who have not only the knowledge and skills, but the sheer drive to build and run a successful startup. Even if I had some crazy-awesome idea that had almost no chance of failure (just as an example), the notion of just...picking up and doing my own thing is a very scary thing to do. I've been job with income stability for so long that the idea of going it on my own scares the hell out of me.
Remember the tools that you had at your disposal and some one else. Dont get overwhelmed by what others have achieved or seems to have achieved.
It's like only reading Nobel-prize-winning publications and then complaining you feel dumb...
I'd rather trade ten smart people for one person who ships.
Sometimes people, even smart people, are unproductive for the usual reasons -- they're lazy/unmotivated or simply just goofing off.
a bit more seriously, are there any plans to increase the number of karma-locked features? if people knew that there were more benefits to contributing high quality content/submissions/comments, they might put a bit more time and effort into contributing them.
I find that I carefully word what I write on HN by default. That is the 'culture' of the site. I don't think the median HN reader needs further encouragement to write well. Of course, there are raging dicks everywhere, and people being people will sometimes go off on a tangent. If there was a 'quality of comments' scale, YouTube would probably be near the bottom (just go onto some sorry excuse for a music video and read some spam and inspired fan comments), and HN near the top.
perhaps, for now. but if PG's concerns are valid, then it may be the case that this will change. alternatively, consider it a functional way to reinforce the culture.
I changed all of my videos to moderated comments on YouTube, and I still receive completely inane ones every day, along with "thumbs up if ____" comments. These, again, would be modded into oblivion here.
Maybe I'm one of the unwelcome newbies that are changing this site for the worse (as I'm not involved in a startup), but I don't think this culture has anything to fear as far as quality dilution goes. Noisy, sure, but still high quality.
I like not having to worry about karma because it means I can speak my mind, instead of simply commenting the popular responses in hope of karma.
In fact, in my own experience, I have found it is very difficult for one person (me) to be amazing at all the different things needed to make an idea successful. I'm pretty amazing, but not superman! ;)
if it worries you so much, why don't you try to make it less popular? eg. by blocking all popular search engines.
Also there are people that have been in the area a lot longer, so me being 21 wasn't around programming during the late 90's tech bubble or before. They have had a lot more time to try a lot of different things.
It's good though to have the median above your own level, allowing you to learn but faster then if you were one of the smartest people here.
But you've taken the wrong lessons out of it. Don't view it as a community of people better and smarter than you, see it as a wealth of knowledge like a library.
Don't view the people here as your competition. View them as people with something to teach you.
Intelligence is not a zero-sum game. No one will prevent your success because they are "smarter" than you. The more educated, energized, and ethical people in the world, the better for us all. Take what HN has to offer and apply it to what makes you happy and what will bring you fulfillment and success.
Or in general, really. Not just on HN. Learning and asking questions isn't something that should be scary.
As for your three points:
1. Those are three useful languages to know. Especially Javascript. Don't be so quick to put down what you do know; someone else will always know more than you. Good for them. Ask them a question, learn something from them.
My personal belief is that you have to like what you do to be good at it. And people like to talk about things they like. So, don't be surprised if someone is willing to talk to you about your question :)
2. I don't mean to be harsh, but it sounds like the only thing stopping you from having a bunch of neat ideas to show off is, well, you. It sounds like you've started a few ideas. Why not finish them up as well?
A very good friend of mine is fond of saying (something along the lines of): "If you pretend to be something long enough, you'll eventually find that you've become what you were pretending to be." If you have 80% done (or even 50%), thats a start. Keep going and you'll wind up with something to show for it. Then you'll find that you've turned into one of those people that you aspired to be like.
3. Everyone had to start somewhere. Some people started earlier and others later. Some people can pick certain things up quicker than others. Thats no reason to be so harsh on yourself. And not everyone is working on the same idea.
And even within the same idea, there's always going to be plenty of room for multiple companies. YC has funded companies in the same area before. There's hundreds of Twitter clients out there. Don't ever let "Well, someone else is doing this..." stop you.
I take this as confirmation that my idea has some merit. It someone else is building it, it must be a real problem/pain point in people's lives.
I independently thought of a semi-decent concept (IMO) and googled similar terms, to discover that there were startups out there with near identical ideas, and already well along the path of execution. I console myself that at one stage Google was taking on Yahoo! and Microsoft when everyone thought search was done (i.e. an unsexy, overlooked field).
That can't be emphasized enough - I worked for one professor for a few years who was very smart (he was an expert in non-linear control systems), but who was always saying to people "sorry, could you repeat that, I didn't understand what you just said".
Never let your ego get in the way of asking a question - the chances are that if someone says something that you don't understand the problem is with their explanation rather than your capability to understand (especially in any business context).
It took me about a year to realize that his blogs are collectively almost a decade of work by him, his collective wisdom and insight, which wasn't even started until he had been out of college for at least 5 years. I was getting a compressed version of his long-term work.
Like robryan says in another comment: the collective knowledge of HN is vast and deep indeed, but most of these people have been hacking for years or decades. Just keep at it, and try to realize that creating useful things is not a zero-sum game.
There is no single person that can be an expert in every area. But widening your views just beyond one simple tool/technology is always beneficial, and thats what I primarily read this site for. I read this site for the "aha" moments. Also consider the amount of people that don't care enough to even think about the subject you talk about. Just by wanting more your getting ahead of them.
HN and PG's essays are the best things that a student / aspiring entrepreneur could experience. I learn new stuff everyday. HN rocks.
That's the exact experience.
But back to HN. Recall that people post here, in part, to feel good about themselves and appear smart to others. It may be that the real heroes are not here. They are off doing stuff, not yammering about it.
I've been lucky enough to meet a lot of successful web startup people (a different group from say, pg or other YC alumni). I can tell you that the only thing they have in common is that they Keep Doing Stuff. No matter what, Keep Doing Stuff. They often have very low tolerance for naysayers and armchair critics. This isn't so much iron determination (well it is, in part) but mostly because they are motivated by the intrinsic rewards of building and exploring. In other words: they are just trying to have fun.
Their initial prototypes are ugly and naive. They don't care because it does something they wanted. They use a language that others deride as a toy. They don't care because it gets the job done fast. At launch, the whole thing is held together with tinkertoys and chewing gum. They still don't care as long as it's making people happy. Then scaling problems happen. Then they hunker down and make even more spectacular mistakes.
And you know what? Then one day they look back on at all they've done, and the system is humming beautifully and they're experts in multiple fields. And O'Reilly starts bugging them to write a book about how they did it all so effortlessly.
Meanwhile those guys on HN are still whining about how it would have been so much better with a functional language and a NoSQL data store.
--
P.S. This is not an argument for doing anything sloppily. It's just that you have to be laser-focused on results. It's a paradox; you have to be capable of rolling out something of heart-breaking beauty but also have no concern for things that ultimately don't affect success. It's been my experience that the version 1.0 of anything really creative looks like a piece of junk. And it takes a very sharp eye to see that it's doing something new and important. I guess this is why not everybody is a successful investor.
And I actually really value discussions from both types.
As for the rest of your post, it was great. Inspirational in the right ways. Thanks.
http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/
Money quote:
> [...] The test was difficult, designed for kids two years ahead of their grade level. Predictably, everyone failed. But again, the two groups of children, divided at random at the study’s start, responded differently. Those praised for their effort on the first test assumed they simply hadn’t focused hard enough on this test. “They got very involved, willing to try every solution to the puzzles,” Dweck recalled. “Many of them remarked, unprovoked, ‘This is my favorite test.’ ” Not so for those praised for their smarts. They assumed their failure was evidence that they weren’t really smart at all. “Just watching them, you could see the strain. They were sweating and miserable.”
Sound familiar?
Anyway... I'm glad if my experience or insights help, but the truth is, I'm not one of those devil-may-care trailblazers. At least, not as often as I would like. I'm more usually the naysayer who wants to rewrite it in a functional language. ;) I haven't even gotten as far as you have when it comes to creating my own way in the world.
Who knows how long they spent refining that comment?
Seeing the end product is always more impressive than the beginning.
At least personally, if something I did is "good", it's because its been through a couple of iterations, you can bet it was ugly as sin first time round.
The problem is that you often don't get to see the intermediate steps.
Prototype -> MAGIC HAPPENS -> Polished Product
The MAGIC HAPPENS portion is what I find really interesting, you can learn a lot about how people think if you get to see how they refine their ideas over time.
And it's all sweat equity. Always. Don't let people try to bullshit you that it's not. If I've learned one thing from many people smarter and more successful than I am, its that they're always doing something moving them to their goals, and they never give up no matter how many times they fail.
"The best writing is rewriting." - E. B. White
http://www.paulgraham.com/quo.html
Whereas someone else's idea that they've been knocking around for a few months will seem breathtakingly new and fresh, and as if it had popped forth fully formed from their head yesterday.
The difference here is simply whose head you're in.
This can be a very serious problem for writers -- if you spend years writing a novel, by the time it's finally coming together, you want to rewrite all of the early stuff just because it seems so overused by now....
This is really a huge point. It reminds me of this piece:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/29/are-kids-getting-to...
"The concern is that by focusing on self-esteem and confidence building, parents and teachers may be giving real goals and achievement short shrift. The article cites a recent study in which eighth graders in Korea and the United States were asked whether they were good at math. Among the American students, 39 percent said they were excellent at math, compared to just 6 percent of the Korean eighth graders. But the reality was somewhat different. The Korean kids scored far better in math than the over-confident American students."
And this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
I wonder if they are all linked? If I'm told my entire life I'm bright and talented, won't I assume that to be true? Learning something, the hard work required, means lots and lots and lots of failure. Failure is an excellent teacher if you are listening. Staying in your comfort zone, where you receive constant praise may create an environment of false input. You may be the best at something in your immediate family, or in your peer group, but there's always somebody who's better at that same thing. And they usually got there through blood sweat and tears.
60k unique visitors does sound like a lot, but it's not a drop in the hat of the amount of people that read Reddit or Digg or TechCrunch. So in a way, I actually feel good about this being a site that is smaller and more focused than those other ones, which really are the true depressants, so to say. Nobody on HN is out here to flame anyone, and most of them are thoughtful, intelligent people -- the kind I want to be with.
What I'm trying to say is, if you find HN frightening, the world is beyond anything you can imagine. There are people who are smarter than you, work harder than you, in better/more happening places than you, and naturally more rewarded than you. So then, being on HN gives me some comfort in knowing that there are people who are sort of like me, and who are also navigating the same world I am. Instead of comparing myself to these people, I'm just glad that they exist.
The "real world" is packed with people who will belittle and disregard your achievements and abilities, you will be told again and again that people like you will simply be replaced by counterparts in a third world country willing to do what you do for sixteen hours a day at five dollars per hour. This comes from fear and ignorance but is so universal amongst the general populace that you can start wondering if they might be onto something.
A community like this is concrete evidence that they are dead wrong; That what we do matters, and that it is not wrong to take pleasure and pride in it. It betrays the attempts to sideline the work and misdirect attention to the importance of politics and salesmanship, neither of which have any spoils to be arguing over or peddling respectively in the absence of the essential process of making wealth and not just money.
Most of all it makes me not hate the world like I used to, because it shows me what humans can be and not what they seem to be when I stand in a random room in meatspace and take a look around.
On that note, does anyone know any other good news/discussion sites similar to HN?
I mean, yeah, it's hard. When I was 20, I got an opportunity to work with some of the best people in my business. (I got the guy who hired me to write a preface to my book... In it, he calls me a 'dumbass kid' which pretty much sums up the situation.)
I did okay at the job until the company crashed (In about 2001, you see) as the pressure went up, I couldn't deal with it. I felt like I was not remotely qualified to work there, or really in the industry at all, and that I was the reason why the company was doing so poorly. I ended up quitting, and taking several months off to road trip. This, of course, ended when I ran out of money, and when I found that working at a coffee shop was more likely to require a degree, it seemed, than getting another SysAdmin gig. I ended up getting a job at a local ASP, and not doing any thing else notable until I started my own company a few years later.
In retrospect, I handled the situation all wrong. The company survived, and if I toughed it out, I would probably be another 3 years ahead in my career right now, and I'd be much closer to the incredibly awesome contacts I made there.
But, the point is, there are always going to be people who are better than you are, and if you can work around those people, do so. you will learn a lot. On the other hand, going from a small pond where you get to be the big fish to the big pond, where there will always be people with whom you simply will never be able to compete, is, well, quite an emotional shock.
If you are a healthy person, you will eventually come to accept and appreciate people who are better than you without getting the feeling that your ego just got kicked in the nads. On the other hand, if this is your first 'big pond' experience, the blow to the ego is very common and generally something that should be expected. You can get over it.
My problem is, I get basic php, I can work with mysql just about, but can't design/CSS or get JavaScript!
I keep saying, it can't be that difficult, but just don't get it when I try!
Since I found HN, 6 months ago, I have spoke to some great people, been given very good advise. I have even started a project with iPhone app using outsourced developers but it's slow (try telling a Latvian how to orient a photo depening on type). I long to be a great programmer, I would love to have even LAMP skills (could do with your talent, get in touch if you want to work together).
One thing I do know, I'll make it, why? Cos all the cool talented talented programmers here reply.
If you can't do it in the real world because of your geography or the quality of your physical peers, Hacker news is the best place to hang around, particularly if you're a comput(er/ing) enthusiast.
I wonder if that maybe helps add to...like subconsciously, all the comments appear the same so you start feeling like HN is this big thing that 'knows everything' without realizing how many different people are contributing their knowledge of whatever area.
Don't compare yourself to the masses. Seeing so much awesomeness can be overwhelming, but you're just one person, after all.
I'm having some trouble with a project of my own, because it's such new ground for me. Reading HN can be a little scary, because it does seem like these people are doing something I'm not. Well, I can't say it's not true, but Rome wasn't built in a day.
(Also, can I just say how weird it feels to give advice? I hardly feel like I'm qualified! I figure you might get something out of it, though, and I've always liked Wikipedia's "Be bold" sentiment.)
But I also don't have a strictly CS background. I generally try not to express myself negatively though, but instead value the good parts and recognize that YC/HN is what it is.
2) You are young; not everyone here is as young as you are. Some of the people you see as rivaling yourself could in fact be your elders, who are naturally a step ahead of you, and whose place you will assume in the future
3) Big fish. Little pond. Happens to me all the damn time. Fortunately I realized a while back anytime I find I'm the big fish, that means it's time for me to get out of my little pond and find the really big fish.