Ask HN: Startup CEO giving employee grief for quitting
Someone I know has been working at a startup for a almost a year. 2 months after their (2 weeks) vacation they decide to quit for another (closer) job.
This is what the CEO wrote to that employee:
"I would like that employees don’t take two weeks of paid vacation then give notice the next week, feels like stealing from the company but that’s life. I really wish you hadn’t, it leaves us with a terrible experience from someone we I enjoyed working with. Especially when that money really matter to us."
That employee had glowing reviews from his colleagues during their time at that startup. The CEO even tried to cajole them into staying. Also, that employee still has not received last months pay ...
Are all startups like this?
55 comments
[ 3.9 ms ] story [ 99.9 ms ] thread"Are all startups like this?"
No, just the shitty ones you don't want to work for. Btw, if it happened to a co-worker, it could happen to you tomorrow. I wouldn't work for a CEO who cries over someone using their benefit.
"Unlimited" means "no accrued time".
That e-mail is 100% amateur hour:
1) It's not really the employee's duty to sacrifice vacation time or pay because the company he or she works for is hurting for money.
2) Regardless, CEOs can't "think aloud" or make vague threats like that. It's whiny and childish. If the goal is for the employee to give money back -- that's insane. If the goal is to prevent employees in the future from taking vacation within a certain timeframe of leaving the company, the CEO needs to talk with his current -- not former -- employees.
In any traditional salaried role with a fixed amount of PTO an employee is paid out for any remaining PTO when they leave. "Unlimited" policies are a mess, for among many other reasons, because they allow companies to skimp out on paying time earned.
There is nothing unethical about what the employee did. They earned that time and/or value, and were compensated for it in the only way the company allowed them to be compensated for it. If the company wants a different set of incentives then they should change their vacation policy to a real one.
Your CEO, on the other hand, absolutely acted in an inappropriate way and, assuming they continue not to pay the employee, is acting illegally. Not all startups are like this but it is admittedly amateur hour at most of them.
Even when working in non-required states, I've always had an employer pay out (e.g. at Microsoft in WA).
[1] https://www.workplacefairness.org/vacation-pay
I’ve heard that in the retail sector it is somewhat common not to pay out. That to me is akin to stealing: the employee earned those hours and the employer is refusing to pay.
I am in the US, both are US companies. I could not handle having less than 40 days off a year and make it clear before hiring that I am going to take plenty of time off. Yes I am productive, no I do not work long hours (~35 a week at both places)
I should point out that they lost nothing by this.
An employer who sends nasty emails and withholds pay is ruining the possibility of a valuable future re-hire, causing needless guilt, turning his own employees against him, building himself a poor reputation, and begging for a lawsuit. It's a heavy price to pay for his own pettiness.
Secondly, you said your friend quit 2 months after taking their vacation, but the CEO's email says "take 2 weeks vacation then give notice the next week". Did you friend actually give notice to quit a week after vacation (i.e. give them about 6 weeks+ notice that they were leaving) or serve notice 2 months after returning from holiday?
Having been a business owner who has hired staff in the past, yeah it sucks when employees quite while on holidays - mainly because it gave me no time to plan to hire a replacement, or to have them help train/handover to the replacement staff member.
But if they have taken holidays that were legally owed to them then there is nothing I can do about that, and it would be unprofessional to vent about it as it is well within their rights (albeit inconvenient to the business).
It also comes down to whether the employer lets their employees take their leave in advance (e.g. your policy is 4 weeks holiday per year, and a staff member wants to take the entire 4 weeks when only 6 months into their employment). Some companies let you do that, sure - but in THOSE cases, if the employee quit while on holiday then there is a real issue because the took an extra 2 weeks holiday that they hadn't yet fully accrued. Though in your friends case, unless they had taken other leave earlier in the year, they may still be within their accrued allowance?
Having watched from the sidelines while workplace relations break down a few times, it always amazes me how simple forthright communication could solve many of the issues both parties have.
Too many on both sides treat employment as a battle to be fought rather than a mutually beneficial arrangement.
Your friend made the right choice.
Not paying the employee, on the other hand... that's theft.
Small startups are gangs of young people trying to do something.
They vary as much as the social nuance among groups of friends at University.
Although the statement is unprofessional, it's mild on the scale of 'things that go on'.
Founders and employees are under an incredible amount of pressure - 'early employees' are not just 'employees' - there's a sense of commitment beyond that, and usually people have a lot of identity derived from their endeavour as well, so it's 'human' that someone might take it all personally.
Bill Gates used to scream and yell at his team regularly, and there are a ton of stories about the 'old Jobs'. I'm not validating their behaviour, rather, just pointing out that it's all a little spurious.
No need for an attorney. Write a letter to the state's board of labor. They do not mess around with issues like this.
Where I worked, it wasn't a startup, but a small business that had been fairly successful. I was hired for cheap and taken advantage of... anyways, I had worked there for over a year and then found another job because I couldn't stand the tyrant boss any longer. He basically cursed me out on my final day. And he withheld my last paycheck for almost a month, claiming that I still had his key, which I had returned to his wife (who was his payroll accountant).
Some more details here: http://confessionsoftheprofessions.com/the-opportunity/
Another job I had would not give me my 3 weeks paid vacation... I had to get the Union involved after a month of not getting my "vacation paycheck" (company offered option for paycheck instead of vacation) who were just about to use their lawyer. Company me that paycheck in just a few days.
Not an excuse, just a rationalization. Fairly common. Not at all excusable behavior on the part of the CEO.
Take it as proof that you were a valued member of the team. There's a chance you'll hear something like "CEO casually remarked you weren't that valued anyway", etc.
Honestly I've seem startup CEOs act like they just got dumped by their girlfriend after a good programmer leaves, even if they've went above and beyond and stuck around for several years.