I'm sure they know their own numbers... that said, how is it cheaper to have warehousing run by your sellers (who distributed as they may be, do not have the efficiencies/automation AMZ has) and, as it pertains couriers, I had thought the likes of them had vertically integrated into warehousing services for their customers? Or have they been outflanked by AMZ despite having decades of logistics experience for very diverse industries?
> how is it cheaper to have warehousing run by your sellers
When you think about the people selling on Amazon's platform as "partners" then your point is very valid. When you think about those other sellers as "competitors" then this strategy makes a lot more sense.
A lot of third parties have complained that they joined Amazon's platform, did well, but then had an "AmazonBasics" version of their product turn up, under-cut them, and appear at the top of rankings squeezing the original product out.
For example, search on Amazon for "Ladder Golf." Top ranked result and "Amazon Choice" is an AmazonBasics set for $26.99, added in May 2016, with only 51 reviews. The second result, by GoSports, has 748 reviews, has sold since October 2012, but for $49.99. You'll note that Amazon's product added four years after GoSport's product has a strikingly similar design.
My point is, this is what Amazon does. It waits for sellers to do well, clones their product, and then competes with them on price (which Amazon can due to its sheer scale). You could legitimately argue customers benefit from lower prices, which is undeniable, but customers also benefit from a competitive marketplace. Once Amazon has no competition they can increase prices again.
PS - I have absolutely no association with any of the products or companies listed above. I picked "Ladder Golf" as an example as a lot of people don't realise AmazonBasics has expanded well beyond electronics/cables/batteries into things like toys, household goods, garden supplies, and so on...
In the UK, some Amazon deliveries were sent via 'Amazon Logistics', which was usually someone in a little car full of packages. I think it's been going on for at least the last 3 or 4 years?
They've had the same in the US for a while as well. What makes this different is that they are handling both sides of the delivery, whereas before they were delivering from their own warehouse.
This has to be a nightmare scenario for FedEx and UPS. From my understanding, a decent number of their flights are pretty much paid for on Amazon deliveries alone: The scale that Amazon ships at makes it feasible to quickly deliver many other packages economically. If Amazon chooses to cut FedEx and UPS out of the deal (even partially), how much will that impact those companies' ability to operate two-day shipping affordably?
no kidding. about four UPS flights land in my city's airport everyday, which happens to be one of the distribution centers / warehouse locations for Amazon for norther CA.
Amazon Logistics have lost my packages several times. I had to call them every time they use their own delivery service. I told them to use Google Maps, but was told they don't have a smartphone. Luckily their customer service rep was great, and either refunded or shipped replacements.
Every time they've delivered to me they've had their phone out with the Amazon app with directions and a button to mark delivered so someone was lying to you.
Amazon delivers like 25% of the stuff we order directly in Venice.
They get the address wrong far more often then USPS, UPS and FedEx, in our experience.
A neighbor 5 houses down has the same street number, technically on a different street, but it faces the same way as ours so if you just eyeball it without verifying on the map it's easy to mess up. I'm sure they will improve but it's obvious having a consistent driver for an area is important, especially if addresses are weird.
Also they have to scan the package and my front door is basically a cellular dead zone, it costs them a lot of time trying to find the sweet spot to scan on their mobile device before taking off to the next stop.
Here in Munich, Germany I get most of my amazon packages via amazon logistics, and have for at least a year. They are great here, they usually find a way to leave the package, I haven't had to go pick it up yet.
The crazy thing is Amazon keeps entering these hyper-competetive, low margin industries. It's pretty tough to cry foul that they are acting like a trust when they constantly position themselves as the third or fourth player breaking up an oligopoly.
Or, if you're cynical, you can say they are playing the long game. Once amazon controls the full vertical for everything, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone else to do business with. Then, they can turn up the money faucet.
Books is a good indicator. We have about 100k+ listings at any given point. We have seen at least 50% of our competitors go out of business since the last rate hike (mid summer).
...you are now paying about $3 more per book and the majority of that now goes to Amazon. Not the third party seller. They raised % taken and also began taking a percentage of shipping fee which is why you see a bunch of third party sellers listing free shipping. Basically they caught up to Ebay in that regard.
"Used" books are not really profitable to sell on Amazon anymore. If you want better prices go to Abebooks.com. Same sellers and generally $2-3 cheaper now.
Your nitpicking is totally unfounded. Oligopoly refers to the state of the market, not the intent of actors within the market. If there's only a few, large firms it's an oligopoly regardless of the reason.
Depends on the definition you’re reading. Google says it’s “a state of limited competition, in which a market is shared by a small number of producers or sellers.”
Limited competition is the lead phrase there. By this definition, parcel delivery is not an oligopoly if it’s competitive.
Well no... His distinction was that oligopoly required intent. And my point is that limited competitors is by definition limited competition.
Really, boiled down my point is that this: "I think people are over-using the word "oligopoly" for any situation where a few companies have most of the market" is really dumb because an oligopoly is any situation where a few companies have most of the market. Perhaps the rise in use of the word oligopoly is reflective of the increase in oligopolistic markets, but it's not due to misuse, certainly not the one he outlined.
You're the one who threw in the word "intent", not TorKlingberg. I would further assume that by "colluding", he didn't necessarily mean explicit cartel behavior, but more typical oligopolistic behavior where the "competitors" inexplicably keep prices stable (or increasing) despite the supposed competition.
I also disagree that limited competitors is the same as limited competition. The two may often be related but don't have to be. When two competitors have razor-thin margins because they're competing aggressively, there isn't a lack of competition. When 10 competitors somehow manage to keep their prices in sync and increase their margins over time, there is a lack of competition even though the number of competitors is high.
But I really don't care to debate definitions further. I chimed in to explain the disconnect between these two views on the meaning of the word "oligopoly". I don't personally care which you prefer.
If one doesn’t believe that a market with only two companies could be competitive, they should consider Uber and Lyft. I wouldn’t be surprised if employees from each dressed up in war paint and brawled a la The Warriors.
I have a < 50% delivery rate to my apartment when Amazon delivers it and the past two deliveries to work were "delivery attempted" even though they never tried to deliver it into the office.
I have the same issue, and I don't have instructions to solve it. All I know is that every other delivery company has managed to figure this out without my help.
Whenever an Amazon contracted courier tries to deliver a package, they call my cellphone because they can't get into the apartment's lobby.
It's so frustrating, and a ridiculous step backward - UPS, USPS, and FedEx are all completely fine. But if Amazon's Algorithm decides to send it via an Amazon contracted courier instead, I'd better be home and near my phone, or no delivery for me!
Contact amazon and tell them to mark your account to not use them. I had to because for some reason the drivers couldn't figure out the entrance to my apartment was around the corner and an unmarked emergency exit wasn't the entrance. Would get called early in the morning demanding me to go meet them on the street.
The Amazon rep I talked to was able to make sure all my packages came from the "old" services and haven't had a problem since. Guess this is what happens when you hire people that have no experience with delivery goods and are not paid what real delivery people are.
It's been so terrible the management of my apartment building sent out an email last week asking everyone to contact Amazon and complain after months of escalating problems.
The staff keep having to rescue packages Amazon drivers have left outside of random building entrances and even neighboring buildings instead of delivering everything to the mail room like the real carrier services have no problem accomplishing.
I have the opposite experience. FedEx and UPS just get to the address, get confused and mark it "delivery attempted" without my ever knowing. They don't even try the buzzer. FedEx won't even allow me to create an account to add delivery instructions because they claim my address doesn't exist.
Amazon delivery calls my cell and I can give the necessary instructions. It's the only one that works for my location.
My experience has been the exact opposite. UPS/Fedex will usually try the buzzer. Purolator is completely hopeless - and it sucks doubly because their office is so far away. I would gladly pay extra to avoid them. Amazon's guys are the best, they not only use the buzzer but they insist on bringing the package up to the door (the other's usually make me go down to the lobby to get it.) Amazon an Walmart are often very close on price for a particular order, and I'll pick Amazon every time for the better delivery service and customer service.
I had a delivery person call my cell phone 8 times in a row back-to-back from a random washington number without leaving a message.
I walked out of a work meeting because I assumed someone I know is probably dead or dying. It was because the delivery driver wanted to know how to get to my address since it didn't show up in their system...
I was livid, called support, they give you a month of prime free.
Then my next 5 packages didn't get delivered because they were all being done by "AMZL-US" which is what their shipping company shows up as. Every single one got marked as "undeliverable" at 7:30PM every day. I even resorted to calling them earlier in the day to ensure that they knew my address and could deliver it, and they always assured me it was fine, only for 7:30 to roll around and the package gets marked as undeliverable.
After my next 5 months of free prime (and 4 canceled packages, 1 I had re-routed to a storage locker and drove to get it), I had a 3 hour long call with someone at amazon that not only went through the process of "prioritising" AMZL for my address (so other carriers are more likely), they also tried to add my address to their system.
They can now finally deliver to my house, but they really like to leave things in the rain without any kind of plastic bag over the box like USPS and UPS do (they also hilariously always knock on my garage door because they can't see the front door from the road, I'm pretty sure there is some kind of "if you don't do this you are fired" rule about knocking when you leave a package, and they always look confused, knock on the garage door, then head back to their truck).
I did stop using them for a long time, that whole ordeal was over several months.
Generally I'd only try again when it was something that wasn't easily available on amazon, or where it was really cheap and I didn't need it within a day or 2.
Lots of horror stories with Amazon courier deliveries but it can't be as bad as the Amazon Sunday delivery via USPS.
Imagine all of the "no fucks given" attitude backed by the efficiency of an un-uniformed USPS weekend contract delivery driver. I've found packages in every conceivable location in the 30ft between my door and the street - in the planter box by the sidewalk, underneath the flowers in the landscaping, in the middle of my walk, in front of the neighbor's door, in the middle of the staircase up to my door... I'd like to know when I signed up for the Prime Easter Hunt delivery add-on and how to disable it. It's so bad that if the checkout ever says guaranteed Sunday delivery, I wait another day to order.
That's interesting because here (at my apartment in SF) USPS Sunday delivery is great. It's done by a regular postal employee who has the master key to enter the building and drop packages exactly where USPS would put it any other day.
Sunday USPS is awesome for me as well (suburban Central New York). Had one issue early on with a driver who pulled over to ask me what street he was on... Other than than, deliveries have always been early in the day, and always in a convenient place.
There is a company called Ontrac that Amazon subcontracts delivery to in my neck of the woods.
The one thing you can be guaranteed is that if they send it by Ontrac the package is most definitely not on track to be delivered on time, if it is delivered at all.
Occasionally they have even sent me notification that a package is delivered the same day Amazon ships it out.
I let Amazon know when a package doesn't show up and they refund or replace it and deliver it with a real carrier (aka UPS).
It could be worse, Amazon could use Golden State Overnight like Monoprice does. Monoprice offers a couple overnight delivery services, but doesn't mention why one is pricey and one (GSO) is free.
I've generally had good luck with the Amazon delivery services, except that OnTrac and Amazon seem to get here pretty late in the day. USPS gets here by early afternoon (or 10AM for my PO Box), FedEx/UPS mid-afternoon, OnTrac maybe 8-9PM.
Because the mail sorting at my local post office was generally done at random I paid for a PO Box. Consistent staff means that deliveries to my box are far more predictable and reliable. I've had maybe two misrouted deliveries with the box in 10+ years.
Ontrac lies on their track. Had a package get reported as delivered one day, but it actually arrived the next morning. I happened to actually be leaving my apartment right as the guy was walking up. I really wanted to ask him why the tracking reported the package already delivered when it wasn't, but I had to get to work and didn't have the time.
I recently had them mark a package "undeliverable" due to my apartment complex having a gate. When I complained to customer service, they discovered that my package had been lost.
I've had the same experience. Every time they deliver via Amazon's service, I have a poor experience. They arrive in unmarked vehicles, so people don't let them in buildings. I can never get in contact with them when there are problems. One time someone ordered a gift to my place with amazon and I was notified that it was delivered; however, I hadn't received it. Amazon sent another for free 3 days later. If they are going to do a sort of Uber for deliveries they need to figure out some way to streamline it.
I got my first package from Amazon Logistics shipped yesterday. Wasn't delivered because Bing maps apparently didn't have my apartment on it. Spent 45 minutes on the phone helping an Amazon employee add the building to their internal mapping system. (Glad I got to do that for free, great use of my time as a prime member.)
Really enjoying having to call Amazon and complain about a new issue every month. Their slide into mediocrity has had me trying to replace them with other services. Hard, but not impossible.
And it went out for delivery again today. Once more, the package had a delivery exception as apparently Amazon Logistics can still not find the apartment after I spent the time to have my account updated with instructions.
Ordered Wednesday with 2 day prime, and it now isn't coming. At no point did Amazon offer to reship the damn thing with a real courier that knows how to deliver packages.
Called in again and they promised to deprioritize Amazon Logistics. Got a 1 month prime extension and a promise that the package might come next week and if not they will re-ship it. The customer obsession Amazon principle definitely at play here!
Product design, logistics, warehousing, delivery, IT infrastructure, physical stores, ecommerce.
Plenty of companies have this kind of vertical integration too (e.g Apple) but none that I'm aware of do this across such a large range of products - nor do they then offer these as services to third parties (e.g. IT infrastructure, ecommerce).
What else will Amazon decide to bring in-house? Manufacturing? Energy production? Consumer finance?
EDIT: As an aside, I find it ironic that Amazon started out selling books. I know plenty of people (myself included) that have daydreamed about owning a little bookstore as a way of escaping the rat race. Success for most would look more like Bernard Black Than Jeff Bezos.
They do have their "AmazonBasics" program [1] where they're selling their own "store brand" of things. I guess that's probably not their own manufacturing (they're likely just buying in bulk and branding it) but it might be.
We have the receiving end of this for quite some time in Berlin.
This is a huge pain compared to DHL and not working at all for me (Prime customer since beginning).
Missed delivery dates.
Didn't find the address several times, no one else had that problem.
Software not working or drivers who had no clue about the software.
Delivery to business address up until 9pm (!)
Lost deliveries.
Had many calls with Amazon customer support, they can't blacklist me for Amazon Logistics and they can't help in any way. Customer support told me on several occasions they know, they get this often but can't help.
Weird thing: I saw several people who rented e.g. Enterprise vans for delivery, how is that paying?
Thw business addresses thing was so ridiculous, I had to start paying for weekend deliveries at one point after a driver turned up to the office 7 days straight outside of work hours. (and yes it was the same driver)
I've had all those issues in Munich too. And I've managed to have amazon blacklist them for my account.
One support rep told me that they have that option if you have more than 3 deliveries that they messed up.
I've filed a complaint after every time they didn't deliver the package properly (as in, not delivered at all, even though it was possible), and then I sent an email with 5 or so order numbers, descriptions of what was wrong, and asked them to blacklist amazon logistics.
Here's the quote from an email:
>Since you mentioned that this is not the first time this has happened, please reply to my email, giving us 3 order numbers which you feel were improperly delivered by Amazon Logistics, together with the issues for each.
>As soon as we receive them, we will file an official complaint against this carrier, trying to exclude them from future deliveries of your orders.
Note: Some support reps insisted that it's not possible to blacklist a single delivery company.
I saw several people who rented e.g. Enterprise vans
for delivery, how is that paying?
At least in my country, companies that use "self employed" drivers have deals with vehicle hire companies so you can hire a vehicle to drive for the company - such as [1] and [2].
The hire is at the driver's risk, so there's lots of ways they can lose money, some outside of their control. For example [2] reports an undercover journalist being charged for a week's van hire but only given three days' worth of work - resulting in an hourly wage well below minimum wage.
They ignored the "deliveries in rear" sign which directs them to the shipping dock. Went to front desk instead.
They parked across a handicapped space in front. Not "in" the space, but askew so that it also blocked the handicap loading area between the two handicapped spaces.
Isn't it funny that we consider the "last mile" or even last few feet the difficult part of deliveries, something that can't possibly be automated, but there are countless cases of presumably capable humans failing at basic but organic tasks like reading a sign or opening a gate.
I suspect this (and a lot of the issues often associated with deliveries) are because drivers are pressured into making as many deliveries as possible, so saving 30 seconds per delivery really adds up over a day.
Yeah, it's this. all the Amazon logistics guys drive around like lunatics in my area and my company's daily DPD collection driver says they are penalized for bringing a package back so they absolutely have to find somewhere to leave it.
Whats annoying is all of the big UK delivery companies offer a live tracking feature now and a one-hour delivery window with interactive SMS systems to manage delaying delivery etc. Amazon offers nothing, it's like going back 10 years as the parcel will arrive sometime between 8am and 8pm
Rural high sierras town for me, an hour from Reno and Truckee. Amazon delivers just fine, FedEx too (Chewy). The bigger hiccup moving up here was for Amazon’s logistics to realize my Bay Area locale wasn’t suitable to my new location...things come via Reno Now. They adapted well. Chewy using FedEx has been great too.
Amazon now has 43% of all ecommerce sales... Shipped: 30% UPS, 30% FedEx, and 40% USPS.
This article says Amazon accounts for $1B of UPS 60B revenue -- only 1.67%[0]. And Amazon cut out almost all of the profits from those deliveries, with discounts over 70%... so Amazon contributed little to their income.
Wasn't able to find numbers for Fedex.. but they say no single customer accounts for more than 3 percent of revenue[1]. And it would be safe to assume that they negotiated just as hard with Fedex as UPS.
USPS might actually be subsidizing Amazon's packages because of how their costs are calculated[2].
So not so bad for the other carriers.. and unless Amazon opens it up to other companies to use, they aren't going to rival UPS or even FedEx in revenue.
Edit: since the first link was written... Amazon has doubled their shipping expenses to $16B (of course, some of that cost is setting up their own shipping service):
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1018724/000101872417...
If they can get that entirely under their service, that'll be significant.. but for comparison, Fedex has $50B/yr revenue.
"So not so bad for either company.. and unless Amazon opens it up to other companies to use, they aren't going to rival UPS or even FedEx in revenue."
Seems they will at some point in the future. They already allow any packages to be delivered to their lockers [0]. So it's not too far-fetched they'll soon allow any shipper to use their "delivery" service.
I imagine ideally Amazon.com would prefer merchants use "fulfilled by Amazon" and leave the logistics of shipping from Amazon to the customer up to Amazon.
I think it will start with special items, like printed business cards. They're custom made so you can't leave a stock with Amazon to fulfil, but they still want to capture that market and offer Prime delivery. So it makes sense to let a third party manufacturer-seller ship through Amazon Logistics.
In my anecdotal evidence, the lockers and storefront are a tire fire. Been to my local store five times and every time there's one guy working with ten people yelling at him like he's the devil himself and most of the terminals not working, heaps of returns just sitting on the counter and floor out of reach of the lone floor employee
The hub service seems to be for buildings, adding their locker technologies. I don't think there's a way for people to send non-amazon packages to an amazon locker.
I hope they manage it better than they manage the "ParcelPoint" locations in Australia - at least two of three in the CBD near me have closed down but were still listed on the site. Cue parcels going missing - Amazon just refunded me. Their own tracking didn't specify what happened.
It's going to be both interesting and frustrating when they open in Australia properly. They should just pay AusPost and use those lockers but I bet they'll open their own.
If you are "self fulfilled Prime" i.e. your own warehouse...you must use Amazon negotiated rates and print Amazon labels. We do this. I would expect them to open their shipping service to us for this. It will put mail consolidators like Newgistics out of business. Newgistics picks up from us, sorts, then delivers to the nearest end point (Bulk Mail Processing Center), where USPS takes possession of the mail and delivers it "last mile".
If you need shipping software that allows you to rate shop Amazon (to do self fulfilled Prime)...I would suggest www.desktopshipper.com. They used to be named IBS Northwest but are getting away from that name for obvious reasons.
>> So not so bad for the other carriers.. and unless Amazon opens it up to other companies to use, they aren't going to rival UPS or even FedEx in revenue.
I think it is a given that Amazon will open up to other companies to use their delivery service. Opening up their distribution, IT, and supply chains is part of their general business plan. Eg AWS; Amazon Warehouse fulfillment; Listing your products on Amazon's site, but doing fulfillment yourself, Amazon Connect.
What you're failing to consider is that this 1.67% of revenue is more like 10-15% of their volume, and that in small package scale is everything. That extra volume lets the carrier load more full trucks direct to smaller destinations, which decreases handling costs (unload, sort, reload). This is why small package carriers give such large discounts to big accounts. The top line decrease would be small, yes, but losing the volume would INCREASE operational costs.
In Santa Clara, CA, Amazon logistics has been good for me. The drivers will consistently call me on my cellphone if they can't find my (weirdly placed) apartment which is more than I can say for UPS.
In some parts of the UK this goes all the way down to individual contractors, of the man-with-a-van type.
As you can imagine this leads to a mixed exxperience because they are all self employed.
Interestingly, about 18 months ago they appeared to change tactics and begin contracting mostly foreign drivers. Ive theorised this was a cost thing; delivery experience went through the floor, I think they are paid a pittance per parcel and so deliveries to my house, which can be hard to locate and therefore takes time, winds them up.
Ive had drivers full on scream in my face over how long it has taken to find me.
I'm not 100% sure. But the drivers are usually operating white panel vans with an Amazon logo (iirc...). The drivers wear high-viz vests and when they call you, it is a Washington area code (which suggests to me they are using an Amazon system).
My understanding was that Amazon has been working towards their own courier service for a while.
Mostly reselling. Amazon Logistics is larger-scale company level delivery contracting, usually for defined service areas . Amazon Flex is the Uber for package delivery variant.
They are already using their own service here in Germany.
I guess in practice it's a subcontractor anyway but they only drive for Amazon (branded cars) and are not associated with any of the big delivery companies.
I hope Amazon do something great here. Delivery firms are all awful. They only have one job, get the package to me. So why are you delivering it at 11am when you know I'm at work? And then again tomorrow, and again, and then leave it at your depot where the onus is on me to collect it.
Why not deliver it at 7pm when I'm home from work? If supermarkets can manage it (and delivery is their secondary business) - I'm sure a delivery company should be able to pull this kind of service out the bag.
Yep, just like taxi drivers, no one has any sympathy whatsoever for these logistics companies.
My gripe is that every package I receive, is from abroad. Every single time, fedex (ups, dhl, ...) ask me for the exact same information (address, eori number, ...) even if I have an account with them, they don't know this information about me, even though I told them last week. I thought a logistics company might have a better handle on their processes. But none of them do!
> Why not deliver it at 7pm when I'm home from work?
Maybe because most people would like to get deliveries outside of normal working hours, but you can't (and shouldn't) force all delivery people to work outside normal working hours?
I think their comment meant that you'd be choosing not just for you, but you would also be making that choice for the employees that had to deliver your stuff. The employees would still need to cover a diverse area and thus they'd need nearly the same number of employees to cover after-hours delivery.
Though, maybe there is some sort of potential market there. Get your stuff shipped to a drop location and they will deliver it to you at your convenience.
by everyone I mean the employer (which is also the product/service provider), the employees and the customers.
if none of the employees will be willing to get $x for working at evening/night, then an increase in salary for those hours might solve the issue .
how much to increase will depend upon supply and demand.
if none of the customers want a night delivery then there's no need for that anyway, and the employer won't even bother trying to find a solution.
if only a small amount of customers want a night delivery - then the employer might setup a solution where you need to pay 1.5x of the regular price in order for it to be profitable enough for the employer and the employees.
if most customers want a night delivery - then the employer will need to make large adjustments in order to fulfill its customers' needs, or some other competitor will fill the gap.
> you can't (and shouldn't) force all delivery people to work outside normal working hours
Ever been to a restaurant or bar in the evening or on a weekend? Ever taken a bus/train/flight in the evening or on a weekend? Congratulations, you have "forced" people to provide services to you "outside normal working hours".
It's completely normal and absolutely acceptable for infrastructure to be provided at "odd" hours. Obviously, all those people must be paid extra for work outside "normal" hours. Personally, I would gladly pay more for a delivery I am more likely to actually receive.
Yes I go to restaurants, and I pay a hefty extra for the service compared to the same products bought in a supermarket. Instead, when I buy online, I almost always get (and search for) free delivery.
> when I buy online, I almost always get (and search for) free delivery
Me too, but that's mainly because the more expensive options are worse, in my experience. For example, "free" delivery by mail into my actual mailbox vs. "premium" delivery with a parcel service forcing me to be at home an entire day on which they might come by. I would pay extra for a premium service if it were actually better.
There are laws about that. I would guess those laws are the reason that other delivery firms don't offer evening delivery, but I don't know if Amazon might try and get away with it.
But by buying from Amazon you force IT staff to wait on pager-duty, and warehouse staff to works nights, and lorry drivers and pilots to work in the wee small hours. And many more I've overlooked.
So why do the last-mile delivery drivers get a break?
Agreed, though I usually find the "real" postal service to be significantly less awful than the various parcel services. They are more able/willing to put packages into my mailbox, and if they do mess up the delivery, the post office is usually closer than a parcel service depot out in a remote corner of a remote suburb.
In fact, one of the reasons I prefer ordering from Amazon directly as opposed to most other online shops, or third-party shops selling through Amazon, is that I know that Amazon will send my stuff using the standard postal service. (Or at least, it used to be that way.)
You mileage will vary according to your country's postal service, of course.
Seller fulfilled Prime is the same as well. Even though they ship from their own warehouses, they are required to ship the package is the same timeframe (defined by seller), and use Amazon's negotiated rates with USPS and UPS.
Amazon Logistics has been running for quite a while in Germany, and for me it's looks like it's a disaster. Every order is like a lottery. If your package gets assigned to DHL, you're almost guaranteed to get it on time. If you get Amazon Logistics, you should be happy if it shows up at all.
so far I've yet to have anything lost by Amazon Logistics, however it is almost comical how they deliver the package.
A person shows up and rings the bell for a solid 10 seconds. I buzz them in, then they practically throw the package from the elevator door saying "Tschussi!" as the door closes.
OK, I get it...no signature. that's fine. but you couldn't look like you were in more of a rush if you tried.
my guess is they're applying drone like KPIs to humans and it doesn't look very humane.
See for me it's the other way around. With DHL who knows when it'll arrive or if the driver will even attempt to deliver your item. (Currently, I have the problem of DHL claims something was delivered yet the front office says it wasn't.) DHL massively overwork their drivers, which results in them having far too many packages to deliver, therefore just end up dropping them off at a local post office for pick up.
Amazon Logistics, it arrives constantly. Also in the UK Amazon Logistics even deliver prime items on a Sunday - also in the UK they send a lot of items with a few amazingly crap delivery service so when you get Amazon Logistics, DPD, or Royal Mail, it's happy days.
I haven't had experience with Amazon Logistics, but I've had (literally nothing but) lost packages and a multi-week delay with DHL in Croatia and Montenegro. Of three packages delivered, only one arrived (after two weeks of "customs inspection" -- it was a replacement laptop cord from Amazon) and it was addressed to me but the contents were what I assume were someone else's birthday gifts, wrapped and everything. It felt like they had opened my package for inspection and someone else's box, and just forgot what went in which box.
Calling DHL was no help (it didn't seem like they were a customer-facing company; it was my first exposure to them and they sounded super confused that a person-not-a-business would be calling to find a delayed package), as they just told me the driver tried to deliver and they'd look into where the package was each time and get back to me (which they never did).
Also in Germany, I much prefer Amazon Logistics. If I’m not home, they’ll leave the parcel either with neighbours (multi-tenant house) or just in front of my door with them taking the risk (and they’ll happily send something again if it gets lost, happened twice so far). This way, I essentially always get the parcel the same day it was supposed to arrive. With DHL, they often don’t ring the bell, put the parcel back into the van and then put it in some post office (available from 2pm the next day), the office open from 9am and 5km away from my commute. If I allowed DHL to place them at the door of my flat, I would have to take the risk of someone stealing it.
The fact that one particular DHL driver routinely unloads his parcels onto the cycle lane every morning doesn’t help my opinion of that company either.
> So why are you delivering it at 11am when you know I'm at work?
The driver has a 200-250 stop route optimized for efficiency, they attempt delivery when near your house. At 7pm a driver has been on the clock for over 10 hours; this is unlikely to change due to air delivery commitments. Over peak season 14 hour days (DoT limit) is very common, with a 14-hour delivery window it's simply not possible to get everyone's packages to them in the evening.
I wonder what the actual cost-difference would be to pay 7 guys working 2-hour 5pm-7pm days instead of every one guy working 14-hour days.
If it's too high, I assume things like drone delivery will eventually replace deliverymen since they are more likely to not mind working evenings, nights, and weekends.
> I wonder what the actual cost-difference would be to pay 7 guys working 2-hour 5pm-7pm days instead of every one guy working 14-hour days.
It's less about the guys, and more about the support infrastructure required for more delivery vehicles (even rented ones via the guys' salaries), insurance, more loading bays to get 7x more vehicles ready, more loading staff (or robots) to load 7x more vehicles, etc.
They'd need to maintain seven trucks instead of one truck, with the much larger support system that would entail. Also they'd need more people working internal functions like HR due to the higher headcount. It's a lot more expensive than just the driver's salary.
While the drones won't mind working at night or on weekends, I would certainly mind the relentless, high-pitched noise of drones delivering groceries and the latest new tech gadgets to my neighbours when I try to sleep or relax.
Honestly, I dread the thought of hundreds or thousands of drones buzzing around the city on a daily basis. It's already pretty bad at many touristic spots because everybody needs their own little aerial video that nobody will ever watch.
Yes, convenience demands that jobs be organized into 10 or 14 hour weeks. At least we can be confident that the people taking such shitty jobs have lots of leverage and will be well compensated!
Maybe a 7-9pm shift could make sense. A 5-7pm shift would result in drivers sitting in rush hour traffic and delivering very few packages. Or they could try a 5-7am shift. I'm sure no one would mind an early doorbell.
The worst is that they don't tell you when the package will be delivered. It could be at any time during the day. Usually when I got out to buy bread, or when I'm taking a shower.
Amazon USA recently started shipping all kinds of shit to Japan (where I live). We use Amazon Japan a lot, but there are all kinds of products that aren't sold here.
The shipping is pretty reasonable; a few dollars for 6-10 day delivery. I recently bought a PS4 Pro and had it delivered 2nd day for cheaper than I could buy that same thing here, which was pretty mind-blowing.
I've now used it dozens of times. Sometimes its UPS or one of the regular delivery firms, but a few times its been some dude in a muscle shirt and no uniform who just rings the bell and says, "Hello, this is Amazon".
This seems like a necessary step to automating delivery (like their drone delivery program). I'm not sure anyone thought they were going to convince UPS/USPS/FedEx to start using drones or other mechanical means to deliver mail: they need their own delivery service to test from and roll out to.
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 152 ms ] threadWhen you think about the people selling on Amazon's platform as "partners" then your point is very valid. When you think about those other sellers as "competitors" then this strategy makes a lot more sense.
A lot of third parties have complained that they joined Amazon's platform, did well, but then had an "AmazonBasics" version of their product turn up, under-cut them, and appear at the top of rankings squeezing the original product out.
For example, search on Amazon for "Ladder Golf." Top ranked result and "Amazon Choice" is an AmazonBasics set for $26.99, added in May 2016, with only 51 reviews. The second result, by GoSports, has 748 reviews, has sold since October 2012, but for $49.99. You'll note that Amazon's product added four years after GoSport's product has a strikingly similar design.
My point is, this is what Amazon does. It waits for sellers to do well, clones their product, and then competes with them on price (which Amazon can due to its sheer scale). You could legitimately argue customers benefit from lower prices, which is undeniable, but customers also benefit from a competitive marketplace. Once Amazon has no competition they can increase prices again.
PS - I have absolutely no association with any of the products or companies listed above. I picked "Ladder Golf" as an example as a lot of people don't realise AmazonBasics has expanded well beyond electronics/cables/batteries into things like toys, household goods, garden supplies, and so on...
They started out terribly, but Amazon seems to have got their head round it nowadays.
Every time they've delivered to me they've had their phone out with the Amazon app with directions and a button to mark delivered so someone was lying to you.
They get the address wrong far more often then USPS, UPS and FedEx, in our experience.
A neighbor 5 houses down has the same street number, technically on a different street, but it faces the same way as ours so if you just eyeball it without verifying on the map it's easy to mess up. I'm sure they will improve but it's obvious having a consistent driver for an area is important, especially if addresses are weird.
Also they have to scan the package and my front door is basically a cellular dead zone, it costs them a lot of time trying to find the sweet spot to scan on their mobile device before taking off to the next stop.
...you are now paying about $3 more per book and the majority of that now goes to Amazon. Not the third party seller. They raised % taken and also began taking a percentage of shipping fee which is why you see a bunch of third party sellers listing free shipping. Basically they caught up to Ebay in that regard.
"Used" books are not really profitable to sell on Amazon anymore. If you want better prices go to Abebooks.com. Same sellers and generally $2-3 cheaper now.
http://www.addall.com/New/submitNew.cgi?query=0439136369&typ...
I know I am nitpicking, but I think people are over-using the word "oligopoly" for any situation where a few companies have most of the market.
Limited competition is the lead phrase there. By this definition, parcel delivery is not an oligopoly if it’s competitive.
Really, boiled down my point is that this: "I think people are over-using the word "oligopoly" for any situation where a few companies have most of the market" is really dumb because an oligopoly is any situation where a few companies have most of the market. Perhaps the rise in use of the word oligopoly is reflective of the increase in oligopolistic markets, but it's not due to misuse, certainly not the one he outlined.
I also disagree that limited competitors is the same as limited competition. The two may often be related but don't have to be. When two competitors have razor-thin margins because they're competing aggressively, there isn't a lack of competition. When 10 competitors somehow manage to keep their prices in sync and increase their margins over time, there is a lack of competition even though the number of competitors is high.
But I really don't care to debate definitions further. I chimed in to explain the disconnect between these two views on the meaning of the word "oligopoly". I don't personally care which you prefer.
If you're going to nitpick, get your terms right at least.
It's so frustrating, and a ridiculous step backward - UPS, USPS, and FedEx are all completely fine. But if Amazon's Algorithm decides to send it via an Amazon contracted courier instead, I'd better be home and near my phone, or no delivery for me!
The Amazon rep I talked to was able to make sure all my packages came from the "old" services and haven't had a problem since. Guess this is what happens when you hire people that have no experience with delivery goods and are not paid what real delivery people are.
The staff keep having to rescue packages Amazon drivers have left outside of random building entrances and even neighboring buildings instead of delivering everything to the mail room like the real carrier services have no problem accomplishing.
I've tried this several times (to drop Amazon Logistics) and reps say they can't do that.
Amazon delivery calls my cell and I can give the necessary instructions. It's the only one that works for my location.
I walked out of a work meeting because I assumed someone I know is probably dead or dying. It was because the delivery driver wanted to know how to get to my address since it didn't show up in their system...
I was livid, called support, they give you a month of prime free.
Then my next 5 packages didn't get delivered because they were all being done by "AMZL-US" which is what their shipping company shows up as. Every single one got marked as "undeliverable" at 7:30PM every day. I even resorted to calling them earlier in the day to ensure that they knew my address and could deliver it, and they always assured me it was fine, only for 7:30 to roll around and the package gets marked as undeliverable.
After my next 5 months of free prime (and 4 canceled packages, 1 I had re-routed to a storage locker and drove to get it), I had a 3 hour long call with someone at amazon that not only went through the process of "prioritising" AMZL for my address (so other carriers are more likely), they also tried to add my address to their system.
They can now finally deliver to my house, but they really like to leave things in the rain without any kind of plastic bag over the box like USPS and UPS do (they also hilariously always knock on my garage door because they can't see the front door from the road, I'm pretty sure there is some kind of "if you don't do this you are fired" rule about knocking when you leave a package, and they always look confused, knock on the garage door, then head back to their truck).
Why go through all that?
Generally I'd only try again when it was something that wasn't easily available on amazon, or where it was really cheap and I didn't need it within a day or 2.
The one thing you can be guaranteed is that if they send it by Ontrac the package is most definitely not on track to be delivered on time, if it is delivered at all.
Occasionally they have even sent me notification that a package is delivered the same day Amazon ships it out.
I let Amazon know when a package doesn't show up and they refund or replace it and deliver it with a real carrier (aka UPS).
Ontrac apparently attracts the ire of many other frustrated Amazon customers: https://www.yelp.com/biz/ontrac-anaheim
I've generally had good luck with the Amazon delivery services, except that OnTrac and Amazon seem to get here pretty late in the day. USPS gets here by early afternoon (or 10AM for my PO Box), FedEx/UPS mid-afternoon, OnTrac maybe 8-9PM.
Because the mail sorting at my local post office was generally done at random I paid for a PO Box. Consistent staff means that deliveries to my box are far more predictable and reliable. I've had maybe two misrouted deliveries with the box in 10+ years.
https://www.yelp.com/biz/golden-state-overnight-delivery-ser...
https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-OnTrac-RVW...
Ontrac lies on their track. Had a package get reported as delivered one day, but it actually arrived the next morning. I happened to actually be leaving my apartment right as the guy was walking up. I really wanted to ask him why the tracking reported the package already delivered when it wasn't, but I had to get to work and didn't have the time.
Didn't even bother to put a note through the mail slot saying "your packages are in the bin".
Luckily my wife found them.
Really enjoying having to call Amazon and complain about a new issue every month. Their slide into mediocrity has had me trying to replace them with other services. Hard, but not impossible.
Ordered Wednesday with 2 day prime, and it now isn't coming. At no point did Amazon offer to reship the damn thing with a real courier that knows how to deliver packages.
Called in again and they promised to deprioritize Amazon Logistics. Got a 1 month prime extension and a promise that the package might come next week and if not they will re-ship it. The customer obsession Amazon principle definitely at play here!
Awesome!
https://qz.com/1039381/amazon-owns-a-whole-collection-of-sec...
Plenty of companies have this kind of vertical integration too (e.g Apple) but none that I'm aware of do this across such a large range of products - nor do they then offer these as services to third parties (e.g. IT infrastructure, ecommerce).
What else will Amazon decide to bring in-house? Manufacturing? Energy production? Consumer finance?
EDIT: As an aside, I find it ironic that Amazon started out selling books. I know plenty of people (myself included) that have daydreamed about owning a little bookstore as a way of escaping the rat race. Success for most would look more like Bernard Black Than Jeff Bezos.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics/pages/2528919011
This is a huge pain compared to DHL and not working at all for me (Prime customer since beginning).
Missed delivery dates.
Didn't find the address several times, no one else had that problem.
Software not working or drivers who had no clue about the software.
Delivery to business address up until 9pm (!)
Lost deliveries.
Had many calls with Amazon customer support, they can't blacklist me for Amazon Logistics and they can't help in any way. Customer support told me on several occasions they know, they get this often but can't help.
Weird thing: I saw several people who rented e.g. Enterprise vans for delivery, how is that paying?
One support rep told me that they have that option if you have more than 3 deliveries that they messed up.
I've filed a complaint after every time they didn't deliver the package properly (as in, not delivered at all, even though it was possible), and then I sent an email with 5 or so order numbers, descriptions of what was wrong, and asked them to blacklist amazon logistics.
Here's the quote from an email:
>Since you mentioned that this is not the first time this has happened, please reply to my email, giving us 3 order numbers which you feel were improperly delivered by Amazon Logistics, together with the issues for each.
>As soon as we receive them, we will file an official complaint against this carrier, trying to exclude them from future deliveries of your orders.
Note: Some support reps insisted that it's not possible to blacklist a single delivery company.
The hire is at the driver's risk, so there's lots of ways they can lose money, some outside of their control. For example [2] reports an undercover journalist being charged for a week's van hire but only given three days' worth of work - resulting in an hourly wage well below minimum wage.
[1] https://xuberance.uber-vs.com/london [2] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37708996
They ignored the "deliveries in rear" sign which directs them to the shipping dock. Went to front desk instead.
They parked across a handicapped space in front. Not "in" the space, but askew so that it also blocked the handicap loading area between the two handicapped spaces.
I like UPS. They're professionals.
Whats annoying is all of the big UK delivery companies offer a live tracking feature now and a one-hour delivery window with interactive SMS systems to manage delaying delivery etc. Amazon offers nothing, it's like going back 10 years as the parcel will arrive sometime between 8am and 8pm
Much better than the situation with UPS/USPS which don't even bother to ring the doorbell.
This article says Amazon accounts for $1B of UPS 60B revenue -- only 1.67%[0]. And Amazon cut out almost all of the profits from those deliveries, with discounts over 70%... so Amazon contributed little to their income.
Wasn't able to find numbers for Fedex.. but they say no single customer accounts for more than 3 percent of revenue[1]. And it would be safe to assume that they negotiated just as hard with Fedex as UPS.
USPS might actually be subsidizing Amazon's packages because of how their costs are calculated[2].
So not so bad for the other carriers.. and unless Amazon opens it up to other companies to use, they aren't going to rival UPS or even FedEx in revenue.
0. https://www.thestreet.com/story/13433347/2/59-billion-reason...
1. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/05/amazons-new-delivery-program...
2. http://fortune.com/2017/07/16/amazon-postal-service-subsidy/
Edit: since the first link was written... Amazon has doubled their shipping expenses to $16B (of course, some of that cost is setting up their own shipping service): https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1018724/000101872417... If they can get that entirely under their service, that'll be significant.. but for comparison, Fedex has $50B/yr revenue.
Seems they will at some point in the future. They already allow any packages to be delivered to their lockers [0]. So it's not too far-fetched they'll soon allow any shipper to use their "delivery" service.
0. https://thehub.amazon.com/
It's going to be both interesting and frustrating when they open in Australia properly. They should just pay AusPost and use those lockers but I bet they'll open their own.
I think it is a given that Amazon will open up to other companies to use their delivery service. Opening up their distribution, IT, and supply chains is part of their general business plan. Eg AWS; Amazon Warehouse fulfillment; Listing your products on Amazon's site, but doing fulfillment yourself, Amazon Connect.
https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/14/why-amazon-is-eating-the-w...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14340035
In some parts of the UK this goes all the way down to individual contractors, of the man-with-a-van type.
As you can imagine this leads to a mixed exxperience because they are all self employed.
Interestingly, about 18 months ago they appeared to change tactics and begin contracting mostly foreign drivers. Ive theorised this was a cost thing; delivery experience went through the floor, I think they are paid a pittance per parcel and so deliveries to my house, which can be hard to locate and therefore takes time, winds them up.
Ive had drivers full on scream in my face over how long it has taken to find me.
My understanding was that Amazon has been working towards their own courier service for a while.
I guess in practice it's a subcontractor anyway but they only drive for Amazon (branded cars) and are not associated with any of the big delivery companies.
Why not deliver it at 7pm when I'm home from work? If supermarkets can manage it (and delivery is their secondary business) - I'm sure a delivery company should be able to pull this kind of service out the bag.
For once I'm rooting for team Amazon.
My gripe is that every package I receive, is from abroad. Every single time, fedex (ups, dhl, ...) ask me for the exact same information (address, eori number, ...) even if I have an account with them, they don't know this information about me, even though I told them last week. I thought a logistics company might have a better handle on their processes. But none of them do!
Maybe because most people would like to get deliveries outside of normal working hours, but you can't (and shouldn't) force all delivery people to work outside normal working hours?
Though, maybe there is some sort of potential market there. Get your stuff shipped to a drop location and they will deliver it to you at your convenience.
by everyone I mean the employer (which is also the product/service provider), the employees and the customers.
if none of the employees will be willing to get $x for working at evening/night, then an increase in salary for those hours might solve the issue .
how much to increase will depend upon supply and demand.
if none of the customers want a night delivery then there's no need for that anyway, and the employer won't even bother trying to find a solution.
if only a small amount of customers want a night delivery - then the employer might setup a solution where you need to pay 1.5x of the regular price in order for it to be profitable enough for the employer and the employees.
if most customers want a night delivery - then the employer will need to make large adjustments in order to fulfill its customers' needs, or some other competitor will fill the gap.
Ever been to a restaurant or bar in the evening or on a weekend? Ever taken a bus/train/flight in the evening or on a weekend? Congratulations, you have "forced" people to provide services to you "outside normal working hours".
It's completely normal and absolutely acceptable for infrastructure to be provided at "odd" hours. Obviously, all those people must be paid extra for work outside "normal" hours. Personally, I would gladly pay more for a delivery I am more likely to actually receive.
Me too, but that's mainly because the more expensive options are worse, in my experience. For example, "free" delivery by mail into my actual mailbox vs. "premium" delivery with a parcel service forcing me to be at home an entire day on which they might come by. I would pay extra for a premium service if it were actually better.
(Agreed with your LOL at the downvoters.)
Amazon isn't likely to pay employees anything extra for working outside of "normal" hours, though.
So why do the last-mile delivery drivers get a break?
Agreed, though I usually find the "real" postal service to be significantly less awful than the various parcel services. They are more able/willing to put packages into my mailbox, and if they do mess up the delivery, the post office is usually closer than a parcel service depot out in a remote corner of a remote suburb.
In fact, one of the reasons I prefer ordering from Amazon directly as opposed to most other online shops, or third-party shops selling through Amazon, is that I know that Amazon will send my stuff using the standard postal service. (Or at least, it used to be that way.)
You mileage will vary according to your country's postal service, of course.
A person shows up and rings the bell for a solid 10 seconds. I buzz them in, then they practically throw the package from the elevator door saying "Tschussi!" as the door closes.
OK, I get it...no signature. that's fine. but you couldn't look like you were in more of a rush if you tried.
my guess is they're applying drone like KPIs to humans and it doesn't look very humane.
That sounds like a very Amazon-esque thing to do.
Amazon Logistics, it arrives constantly. Also in the UK Amazon Logistics even deliver prime items on a Sunday - also in the UK they send a lot of items with a few amazingly crap delivery service so when you get Amazon Logistics, DPD, or Royal Mail, it's happy days.
Note to amazon employees who may be watching - not really!
Calling DHL was no help (it didn't seem like they were a customer-facing company; it was my first exposure to them and they sounded super confused that a person-not-a-business would be calling to find a delayed package), as they just told me the driver tried to deliver and they'd look into where the package was each time and get back to me (which they never did).
The one frustrating bottleneck in the process is amazon's.
'Preparing for dispatch' is an all too common message that often means your order is not going to be sent for a couple of days - if at all.
To get around it you could sometimes cancel and immediately re-order but they seem to have closed that loophole of late?
The fact that one particular DHL driver routinely unloads his parcels onto the cycle lane every morning doesn’t help my opinion of that company either.
The driver has a 200-250 stop route optimized for efficiency, they attempt delivery when near your house. At 7pm a driver has been on the clock for over 10 hours; this is unlikely to change due to air delivery commitments. Over peak season 14 hour days (DoT limit) is very common, with a 14-hour delivery window it's simply not possible to get everyone's packages to them in the evening.
If it's too high, I assume things like drone delivery will eventually replace deliverymen since they are more likely to not mind working evenings, nights, and weekends.
It's less about the guys, and more about the support infrastructure required for more delivery vehicles (even rented ones via the guys' salaries), insurance, more loading bays to get 7x more vehicles ready, more loading staff (or robots) to load 7x more vehicles, etc.
Honestly, I dread the thought of hundreds or thousands of drones buzzing around the city on a daily basis. It's already pretty bad at many touristic spots because everybody needs their own little aerial video that nobody will ever watch.
Funny thing is is that Amazon can't compete with the local incumbents here so they have a tiny market share.
The shipping is pretty reasonable; a few dollars for 6-10 day delivery. I recently bought a PS4 Pro and had it delivered 2nd day for cheaper than I could buy that same thing here, which was pretty mind-blowing.
I've now used it dozens of times. Sometimes its UPS or one of the regular delivery firms, but a few times its been some dude in a muscle shirt and no uniform who just rings the bell and says, "Hello, this is Amazon".
https://www.amazon.jobs/en/search?base_query=last+mile