Ask HN: How do I find meaningful work?

141 points by throwawaybs ↗ HN
I look around and I feel like all the startups are either bullshit or making the world worse off. I've been a software engineer and data scientist. I've worked with machine learning. What should I do next?

I'm sick of working with advertising-based businesses because I believe advertising is convincing people to buy useless shit. I don't want to work in health, because the government and insurance have fucked up the healthcare system, and I don't want to be part of it. I kinda like fin-tech, but it seems at the end of the day about make rich people richer and/or getting poor people to pollute more. I've thought about heading more towards pure research, but I want to know I'm doing something for a good purpose.

I'm also totally sick of the ideological crap at lots of startups. I don't want to have to drink the kool-aid. Neither do I want to work for some large corporate machine.

I want there to be real values behind what I'm working on that I can believe in. Despite claims to contrary, I find the entire business culture rotten to the core. What should I do?

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One suggestion might be to just work 35 hours a week at a business you find “passable”. The other 35 hours can be dedicated to something that really makes a difference. In fact it’s really hard to find a job that does serious good. Good agencies throughout the world are so low on funds they need volunteers, not workers for the time being.

Since you hate advertising, a not-immediately similar path might be anti-corruption. These guys advertised for help from data scientists a while ago on HN: https://www.occrp.org/

Also Open-EMR, which is a free end-end software for hospitals is also an option. By implementing this software, hospitals save immediately $1 M+ compared to systems like Center or Epic, it’s almost comical. There are lots of statistical packages, so your help could be useful there: www.opem-emr.org

I'd be up for volunteering. I'm not quite sure how to find a good group to volunteer for.

Occrp looks interesting, but it looks working there involves going to Kosovo. Open-emr looks potentially interesting, but I'm not sure how much I care about hospitals being able to make more money. I'm not convinced electronic medical record are actually a good idea.

This is the project I like, open source hospital software for poor countries: http://hospitalrun.io/

I see it that way that you can make healthcare more efficient with low risk of fraud (there is no money involved directly here).

1) Go to your local job board. Here in the us, I recommend indeed.com or https://angel.co/jobs

2) For your local and particular interest get a list of potential jobs

3) Do a pairwise comparison between first two jobs. For these two jobs and only these two jobs, which you would prefer to do in your current state. Ignore qualifications or everything else, if you were given the choice of starting only one of those two jobs tomorrow, which would you choose.

4) Then do a pairwise comparison between second two jobs

5) Keep doing this for at least 10 minutes

6) Now you have a list of potentially attractive jobs for you.

7) For this list you compiled, do this process again.

8) Then once you've made it through all of those, do it once more.

9) By the third time, you will have chosen some jobs 3 times over other jobs. So you're task now is to look deeply at all of these jobs that won 3 times and try to figure out what is in common between all of them.

10) Once you have some of those clues, go back to step 2 and try searching for more jobs that have those key-words and/or criteria you found in step 9.

What you are doing here is to force some sort of revealed preferences for your self based on currently available jobs. You aren't trying to solve the "what you should do next", you are trying to solve the what interests me enough that I would do it over something else. With enough research you'll have a few more ideas of what roads you should be exploring.

I've been going there, and thinking I want to work for any of these companies.
Find someone who’s vision is inline with what you want.

What type of work do you like? What type of business would you like to build?

Fuck it, what’s your feeling on building solutions for people just like you? That’s what I’m looking to do.

Try the nonprofit world: http://idealist.org/

I used to say "Nonprofits? They aren't doing anything interesting with tech!!"

One day, my wife convinced me to try searching on Idealist just to see if there were any nonprofits doing anything interested with tech. I feel in love with the very first result, got the job, worked my way up the ranks, and am now Chief Product Officer at GlobalGiving.org and I couldn't be happier.

Looking for a shortlist of orgs that I'd recommend? Try any one of the orgs at https://www.ctosforgood.org

This! But you know, starting your own non-profit is a great idea too. I started one this year, and now I get to invent my very own job every day: fighting and sometimes suing the government under state and federal Freedom of Information laws, and rescuing millions of records that I return to the public domain! It's meaningful work that I can do on my own schedule, and it fills a void that no one else was doing. And no dumb-ass recruiter is ever going to beat that.
I read through to see if anyone had mentioned this.

When I retired I was rather bored and felt as if life was not really giving me any challenges. So, I found it in volunteering, including a small non-profit startup.

I'd also add that there may not need for it to be your work, as in gainful employment, that is meaningful. You may be able to fill that outside of work - assuming you have time. Dunno if it will work for you, but I'll add it.

It's nice to be able to give something back. It's uplifting to fill a void for someone else. I suppose, in a way, it may even be a little selfish. I do, after all, sometimes do it because it makes me feel better.

Ah well... Just some potential food for thought.

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This. Without stating my employer I rub elbows with people from all the household name cloud vendors and an knee deep in their stuff plus we invent new things where they can't cut the mustard.

It's hard to find but it is possible

+1 for non-profits with a mission. There are many good projects out there, and they are often can't afford a full-time and experienced devs, so the addition of one competent person could make a significant impact.

You'll definitely experience more higher-level-Maslow-pyramid buzz when working for a big mission than for big dollar.

Really? You don't think that any for-profit companies are doing anything meaningful? That's quite a leap. Surely there are physical products in your life that provide a tangible benefit, thereby making the labor behind them "meaningful." I mean things like your car, your house, your clothes. All of which involve tech these days.
Not the OP, but I have had the experience of working on worthwhile products, but in the context of a preponderately meaningless job. Even if a product has some value, you can find your role demeaned by terrible ethical practices, psychopathic bosses, sales-dominated practises insisting on low quality work, institutional insistence on lying to clients, etc etc. The word 'meaningless' may be a bit over-categorical, but I'd consider it defensible to refer to situations where the meaningless/negative aspects overwhelm the positive.

My experience was that this was the case with all commercial jobs I did. Bearing in mind that only the top 10% or so (which by definition we can't all be included in) have a very wide choice of work.

I think you're the one making a leap here...

Suggesting that non-profits are a good place to look for meaningful work is nowhere close to claiming that for-profits can never do anything meaningful.

Yep. I'm sure there are plenty of for-profits doing meaningful stuff too. Given OP's original question, seemed like he was missing non-profit from his search.

I'd suggest searching (non-profit + meaningful for-profit).

hey wow, i use gg a lot :)
Thanks! Always open if you have any suggestions or bug reports :)
I moved from being in a software only world where I couldn't see the benefit of my work, to one where I see my work being used on a daily basis. I find the sense of helping people and improving their lives oddly satisfying.

I do acknowledge working with non-technie teams is frustrating to start with, but once you bring them to learn the benefits it becomes pleasurable.

Self driving cars are fun. Immediate feedback on code on car after down ramp up.
> I'm sick of working with advertising-based businesses ... I'm also totally sick of the ideological crap at lots of startups. I don't want to have to drink the kool-aid. Neither do I want to work for some large corporate machine.

Work in health care. Lot of work there building apps that support clinical trials, etc. Probably a lot of ways you could apply your data scientist hat.

Work for a small company that creates a real product or service. That means you might have to look outside of the typical startup world and may lose all the coolness that goes with, but it sounds like you're over all that anyway.

Do your own thing. Training, consulting, etc. I'm sure you have an idea burning in your mind, like we all do.

Come work with us. https://www.freeplayapp.com/

We want to take all of the advances in psychology and ML, and instead of applying it to the problem of getting people to click on ads, we want to persuade people to have a fun exercise that improves their life.

Email me. adam@freeplay-app.com

> I'm also totally sick of the ideological crap at lots of startups. I don't want to have to drink the kool-aid.

I don't mean to threadjack, but what are some examples of this?

The typical is we are the best and we are changing the world for the better. If you make critical comments, you get pulled aside and told that criticism is frowned upon. The general expectation that employees be true believers while the founders are just in it for the money. The ideological belief that entrepreneurship is the solution to the world's ills.

Basically, I'd say the TED ideology. Look, tech is amazing, and it can all the solve all the worlds problems. Yet, beneath the veneer it is just propagandizing the power and wealth of 'divine' founders.

I'm also sick of startups talking how they are doing good for the world, when it turns out they are actually serving ads. When you look at the ads, the ads are often dishonest, unethical, and encourage behavior not in the interest of the viewer or broader society.

This can all be compounded by the creation of 'reality distortion fields' by dishonest founders. This can be compounded by the whole game of misrepresenting the value of stock option. Then, this is compounded by the naive belief in stock options. Further, I object cult-like devotion to the startup cult over strong moral values.

The irony here is that many of the responses in this thread are pushing you to start your own thing and change the world in a way you care about... which is pretty much the origin of these cult mentalities you're trying to get away from.

It's a real tough challenge to go from strong founding values and vision to then having to promote those values in a way that keeps your business alive. In fact, it's antithetical to the dominant business model of the internet.

My suggestion: focus first on the business model you want to operate with. How do you want to exchange with the world? As a non-profit? As a VC funded startup? A private company bootstrapped on revenue? A large public company? A consultancy? Making royalties on IP? Investing? A small local business?

IMO you'll find more relevant people and opportunities that share your value system this way.

Not O.P., but 1 type of "ideological crap" is probably in reference to how certain startups enforce and indoctrinate certain "practices" that they staunchly believe are core to their organization. Some even wear these practices like a badge of honor on their job listings.

Example: Pivotal Labs is known for it's insistence on "Pair Programming" and touts it as an "extremely beneficial" practice.

Source: Pair Programming Considered Extremely Beneficial => https://content.pivotal.io/blog/pair-programming-considered-...

...and here's one person who left because of that.

> When you pair program, you're effectively joined at the hip with your pair. You can't pair if only one of you is there. This means that you both come into work at the same time, you both take lunch at the same time, you both take breaks at the same time, and you both leave at the same time. The work is so concentrated that you work 8-hour days (which is good). But you can't take time off without affecting your pair.

Source: Why I Don't Like Pair Programming (and Why I Left Pivotal) => http://mwilden.blogspot.com/2009/11/why-i-dont-like-pair-pro...

Your link is quite a good read, and I say that as a "pair programming advocate". Some people don't like pair programming. Some people will never be particularly good at pair programming -- often for the very real and reasonable reason: because they don't want to. That doesn't mean it's a bad practice. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't build a team around that practice. It just means that some people won't want to join your team -- and if you are building your team around that practice, then that's an incredibly good thing!

I can tell you from experience that good pair programming teams exist. They get tremendous benefit from pair programming. These benefits may not be obvious to those who do not want to do pair programming -- even after a month of trying. The same can be said of many, many, many other practices.

At some point, when you are building a team, you have to decide on practices that you are going to follow -- even if those practices are, "Do whatever the heck you like". Imagine if you are working on such a team and everybody is getting along well and is productive. Imagine hiring someone and saying, "Feel free to institute any group wide practices that you want. You may force anyone to do anything you like". Yeah, obviously it won't work

Similarly, imagine working on a team with an established set of practices. Imagine that everyone is getting along well and is productive. Then imagine hiring someone and saying, "Feel free to work however you want. You can ignore any group wide practice that doesn't suit you." It's not nearly as obvious, I suppose, but that's just as disastrous. Everybody then has to work around that person and none of the practices work any more.

So, as you are building your team, you need to hire people who will be willing to work with your practices. If it's a "do whatever the heck you like" team, then you've got to be pretty clear: "We value programmer freedom over group coordination. We are unlikely to value practices that require everyone to work the same way". On the other side of the coin, if you are working in a coordinated manner (and is there anything more coordinated than pair programming???) then you have to be pretty clear, "This is how we work as a team. If you do not like that, then you will be very unlikely to be happy on this team".

Neither one of these scenarios is "ideological crap". It's reality. Both scenarios are realities that some people don't like -- and let's face it: both scenarios are referred to as "crap" by people who don't like it.

So, I get the point that you don't think pair programming is a practice that is worth build a team around. I think that's a thing where reasonable people can differ. But from the perspective of this thread, my best advice is to pick a team where you think you will be happy and successful. If you turn out to make a mistake, then try to find another team. If you go through that experience many times without finding a place where you can be happy -- perhaps you should consider the possibility that external factors are not the driving force in your unhappiness. YMMV.

> I don't want to work in health, because the government and insurance have fucked up the healthcare system ...

Eloquently put, but you don't mention where you live (ie. which government this is). Generally people that don't say where they are when asking these kinds of questions are in the USA - a fair assumption, I'm sure, as 5% of the world lives there.

Anyway, consider that 'health' is big - really big - and isn't just the bits you've seen. I'm confident there are some good efforts being made under that banner domestically that may fit your criteria. Further, if 'the government has fucked things up' maybe consider relocating to a place where things aren't quite so regrettable -- lots of (perhaps 'every other) countries have better health systems than the USA. Useful if it's an area you're genuinely interested in but for local government (mis)management.

You sound like quality founder material. I mean that: a lot of good innovation comes from people who simply loathe how something is currently done and want to improve the situation by doing it right.

Have you thought about starting your own business? It doesn't necessarily have to be a startup; lifestyle businesses are just as valid a path. That said, startups do unfortunately require you to drink your own Kool-Aid to a degree. They do not however require you to foist bullshit upon your employees, which most founders unfortunately do anyways.

Of course, founding isn't for everyone. It's hard, and there's a lot less guarantees involved than working for someone else. It may not even be a possibility given your current life situation, I don't know.

Work on privacy enhancing block hain. Work on stuff like Monero. Couple of reasons - it is well within your ideological beliefs, it's technically super challenging, and you can make gazillions of money
1. Identify causes that truly interest you.

2. Make yourself look like a strong candidate on paper.

3. Search for companies that are focused on the causes you care about.

4. Reach out directly to the appropriate individuals at those companies. Don't pay any attention as to whether or not they are hiring.

5. In your approach, briefly mention your qualifications but also your interest in the organization's mission. Mention the latter first. Make it clear to the recipient that your message was written exclusively for this organization.

What an excellent question. Possibly one I should have asked years ago, but instead I largely turned my back on the world of work in disgust - not a course of action I would recommend!

Anyway, there's a slew of helpful and positive answers here and I wish you luck in making use of them.

I advise a few companies that are using data to truly make the world a better, smarter place. Feel free to send an email: chris [at] abrams.ventures

Also, my wife works at Engima if you want an intro: https://www.enigma.com/

How about your own non-profit? I founded one. Actually, not non-profit at the moment, but I was lucky to win a grant of $25K from one non-profit accelerator (they scammed me and didn't pay at the end). But it's kind of fun to do it if you're willing to spend your weekends on something.

There are plenty of other non-profits, but they usually don't pay good enough to even cover the rent in SFBA. So IMO it's better to play your own game if you have a plan.

As others have and would point out, going out on your own and doing something you _want_ to do will be one of the real ways to work on what you want to work on, unless you're not keen on the overhead that comes with entrepreneurship.

It'll take time to find a company that both exudes the same values as you and is in a domain that you enjoy working with. More often than not you get one but not the other.

Usually what I would do when evaluating a company, is ask if I'd ever want to spend my weekends contracting / part-timing / volunteering for that company. If you have a M-F 9-5 job and are looking forward to the weekend with that company, then it's a good step in the right direction.

Then meet with the team and talk to their employees both while on an interview or if you can get one or more of them out on an informal coffee or meal to talk it would help too. Plenty of times interviews are too official, too rigid and pre-meditated to truly gauge the culture of the company/team.

You might end up jumping around a few times before you find something you like, but the important thing is you find something you like, instead of droning on at a big tech company or startup where you reap the benefits financially but suffer emotionally and psychologically.

I want there to be real values behind what I'm working on that I can believe in. Despite claims to contrary, I find the entire business culture rotten to the core. What should I do?

Have you considered seeking employment with organizations working in extremely distressed parts of the world, like refugee camps?

"The worthwhile problems are the ones you can really solve or help solve, the ones you can really contribute something to.... No problem is too small or too trivial if we can really do something about it.” - Richard Feynman

I could give you ideas on how you could change people's lives by volunteering to teach at places like http://shhkids.org/ but I won't. What you should do though, is find something where you can cause impact, no matter how small, and then work your way up from there towards something that gives value and happiness to YOUR LIFE.

Love the truth seeking of your inquiry. Hope you find your work nirvana.
I understand you're asking about meaningful _work_, but there's more to life than work. Sometimes it's good enough to have a day job that doesn't suck and find your meaning outside of your work: faith, family, art, volunteering, etc.