The tone of this article seems to particularly demean the students in the beginning; I understand it's supposed to bring them to light but holy shit:
>They all ended up in West Virginia, not exactly the America you dream of when you come from Chennai or Bangalore. Probably not even when you come from Biel.
>Since then, their careers haven't really advanced in any significant way
>he looks less like an emissions specialist and more like a South Asian IT expert
> They all ended up in West Virginia, not exactly the America you dream of when you come from Chennai or Bangalore. Probably not even when you come from Biel.
I find these type of statements pretty racist. I mean what does it have to do with the reporting? I'm not sure it adds to the dramatic narrative/buildup. Having said that, I suppose for most people who move to the US, there is a certain picture in mind of New York and LA among other things, so there's that. But it sounds racist in the back of my head, not to mention the IT part.
The intended meaning is exactly what you mention, namely WV possibly being a disappointment to a foreigner coming to the US. In that sense, it's demeaning to West Virginia, and trying to convey sympathy for the students.
I felt it was more classist. I personally would enjoy living in West Virginia. Low taxes, cheap land, beautiful wildlife/scenery, access to the Appalachian Trail, etc. I certainly understand why some people would prefer to live in a place like NY, but this idea that if you're not in a wealthy coastal city that life is shit is so tiresome.
I was told by an actual rocket scientist who lived in Birmingham, Alabama that Birmingham had at the time more PhDs per capita than anywhere else in the U. S. Never looked it up, but it was believable enough at the time.
There is nothing strictly racist in those statements, nothing strictly racist as in "humans of ancestry X are inherently inferior to humans of ancestry Y". But as the reaction here clearly shows, the writing touches some trigger patterns: the article seems to say things that in America, only a racist would say. But these triggers are completely cultural and since this is a text from Germany you should be very careful to make assumption based on cultural "don'ts" from a different background. There is nothing in the article that would qualify as racist according to german standards. Many statements that scream "racist" to an American would seem perfectly all right even to a German who hands teddy-bears to refugee children by day and hunts nazi hooligans by night.
As a German, it is one of the most interesting things that I have ever learned from reading hacker news: according to American standards, all of Germany would be considered racist, even Baader/Meinhoff-worshipping leftists. The same insight helps me immensely in accepting that all those things in America that trigger German "this is terribly, terribly nationalist!" sensibilities probably do not actually mean that the USA are gearing up to annex some neighboring countries by force. Because that is what we think of when we see flags over factory floors, hear the "USA! USA!" chant or someone raising from their seat upon hearing their national anthem and maybe even -gasp!- put their right hand higher than the waist line. Here in Germany, only a racist would do that (because nationalism and racism are inseparable in countries that do not share America's long tradition of immigration).
In short: our cultures are full of shortcut heuristics for the kind of dangerous group-chauvinism we want to avoid. It's usually not a problem to have them (I'm not here to rally against "PC crap"), but they absolutely don't translate across borders.
That’s specifically german though, because of its pretty abyssmal 20th Century, rather than specifically american. That said most modern west europeans do find american nationalism and exceptionalism a bit odd, especially after they’ve visited and US and seen the reality of most people’s situation. If anyone reads this and thinks I’m being unfair, especially on california-centric HN, consider if you’ve ever hosted a western european friend in SF and had them comment about just how abnormal the level of homelessness and mental illness is there. And how they looked at you/us when you said ‘well it’s because SF is a warmer place to sleep on the streets’ as if that was fine.
This article is honestly quite objective, and should invite some introspection if your first instinct is to be offended.
I certainly concede the cutural context, and wouldn't care much if the article we're written in German and I were reading a translation, but I assume this article is written for consumption by an English population, which means barring regional difference in English there shouldn't be much ambiguity in interpretation for that population.
Your anology doesn't quite line up. What you point out are specific actions of people. You are now easily empowered to go ask that person why they stood up to the national anthem or ask someone else. The line quoted here is an impression of a German author of what an other culture percieves. This just doesn't sound like good reporting. Is the author projecting third world impressions or projecting what _anyone_ reaching America would feel about non costal cities? The tone of the rest of the article suggests the latter, but what really stood out was the added impression of someone from Switzerland. Growing up in a culture with with tons of colonial baggage, I don't see why I shouldn't feel offended.
This is a good point, I had some of my European based friends look this over for their feedback for kicks and giggles. They didn't find this offensive in any way mostly just stating the fact of living situations.
In my comment I tried to specifically point out that it was more demeaning than actual racism with some of the statements which are two very different forms of offense.
You mention the whole "PC" thing which is a good area for discussion on this article. Americans (myself included) have this SJW culture around being politically correct and I think it's leading society more towards inherent racism. My old college friends came from all over the world, and we would always joke about the stereotypes of everyone's background. They'd call me 'Murica and I understood where they were coming from, as did they when we had names for each other. Nowadays it's common that someone would be offended if we joked in the same manner, and we're missing the ability to break the ice between our cultures/ethnicities and be friends without perceiving it as prejudice.
I think its due partly to the very stratified nature of education in Germany and to be polite a lot of mainland European countries tended not to have much less immigration than say the UK and haven't got to the level of the UK and the USA in recognising the issues around race.
That sot to say that the Uk and USA don't have major issues with BME integration /Racisim
I don’t see race even mentioned in the part you quoted. What I do see is something along the lines of “if your impression of the U. S. is from television and popular media, West Virginia might not be what you expect”. Reminds me of a co-worker from decades ago whose family asked him if the U. S. is really just like the TV show Dallas. Umm, not in Indiana it’s not.
This article is written badly. Especially the ending with regards to how real world testing and lab testing revealed the dupe there is hardly any revealing connection.
Could you elaborate? The author says it was a software defeat based on detecting simulation conditions. The students rigged up a portable tester which did not trigger these conditions. An official saw a presentation on the paper results and got involved in investigations, which demonstrated that the results were accurate. Where's the missing connection?
Ah, yes I agree the writing style is a bit awkward especially at the end. I think the story itself is pretty compelling. The style does (somewhat awkwardly) parallel the story itself: these guys weren't looking to get VW into trouble, they were fascinated by what they thought was a technical solution to a hard problem.
I had a different reaction to this article than the other commenters so far. I think it did a very respectful job of describing the incredible effort these guys put in. I had no idea it wasn't just some guys in a lab turning on a switch.
I also come from a different perspective on this article because I actually grew up in Morgantown, WV, where my dad was a professor. Looking at WVU as the middle of nowhere, along with some of the other mentioned comments, is pretty reasonable. And the article seemed to have no bias about the quality of work done be these students and their lab in general. If the right people read these articles it would probably give these guys' career a big boost.
I live in WV and work for a startup in Morgantown, and I disagree with you, and agree with the other comments.
In the U.S., West Virginia is associated mainly with forests, the heroin epidemic in its cities and its backwoods population, who refer to themselves as hillbillies. West Virginia is definitely not associated with environmental protection. "Rolling coal" is a popular hobby in these parts - it involves removing the particulate filters from a diesel pickup truck, driving to the nearest city, waiting until a Prius or a cyclist goes by, gunning the engine and roaring off, leaving a cloud of foul-smelling exhaust in its wake. That's what passes for humor in West Virginia.
As an outsider, those are exactly the things I associate with WV (I'm from Texas). Additionally, there are plenty of similar things I associate with Texas. While I dislike those qualities, that doesn't make them less true or offensive. I suppose, those observations made about where I live could be seen as the first definition of offensive, "causing someone to feel deeply hurt, upset, or angry". However, that doesn't automatically qualify them as fitting the second definition of offensive, "actively aggressive; attacking".
Just to add to the information on this thread, and I feel this will be relevant here:
Rolling Coal is accomplished by running the fuel to air ratio very rich, nearly all diesel motors cannot accomplish this without modifications to the engine and the emission control system. Generally this is a side effect of some modifications meant for increasing power by increasing fuel flow but taking it past the point all of the fuel can be burned; either on purpose to roll coal or on accident because of mistuning. The idea behind rolling coal, in my experience, is showing off your diesel motor which is many times more expensive and powerful than standard gasoline motor, and showing off it has been modified for even more power.
The article is most likely vaguely referring to this "Prius Repellent" YouTube video when it talks about rolling coal: https://youtu.be/hsC0kLNSLAQ
Although at the same time you have more popular Youtubes talking about how rolling coal is just a little too obnoxious: https://youtu.be/HjCPW2nj7do
The primary purpose behind rolling coal is not to attack Priuses, although it is absolutely terrible for the environment, and to nearly everyone very obnoxious.
No, although I'm sure that rolling coal and "Prius Hunting" are separate terms in West Virginia.
The article conflates rolling coal with "Prius hunting", which probably isn't intentional. The Wikipedia article for rolling coal also does this. The main reason for my post was differntating these two ideas. Online this seems quite politicized. Perhaps it is exactly that, and my experiences are just different, that's the problem with anecdotes. But my experiences come from car shows where people from across the country travel to host events. A truck will "roll coal" while on a dynamometer with only other "truck guys" around who are not bothered by the fumes.
Although while I was searching for the videos I was using as examples in my previous comment, I saw many videos such as "rolling coal on protesters" and many "Prius hunting videos". I find actions such as these poor form and I'm not trying to defend them. Both are obnoxious and polluting, but only one is intentionally malicious in nature.
I wonder what prompts the differences in my experiences versus yours. I live in a rural area near WV, and not only have I heard the term "rolling coal" from multiple sources, I've seen it done a number of times (not necessarily in cities). In fact, I tend to close my car's vents as a matter of course when I see a truck that looks outfitted for it, as it can be a bit noxious no matter what, and even when they aren't trying for the black cloud the exhaust is worse than usual.
I've met self-identified rednecks many times, but only one self-identified hillbilly (lives in VA). I think the former term has more memetic potency at the moment; hillbilly seems more outmoded (probably why they used it), and even seems to conjure a more hippie aesthetic, somehow.
I'd agree on coal or white-water rafting as stereotypes over forests. WV does have some nice parks and forests, though.
So, I had read through the wikipedia references listed in the footnotes (prior to your comment), and came across the Vice article, which if you read (not you, specifically), says it is a minority of diesel vehicle owners (all over the US).
Reviewing the other linked articles from Wikipedia (the majority of which were from 2007), I could not find one referencing WV, but multiple other states.
Not to get into a Virginia versus West Virginia debate (Virginia != West Virginia), are the "rolling coal" experiences of yours because you are driving a Prius or bicycle?
I agree about the "redneck" term, but that is associated with any area, and often embraced, "hillbilly" is considered derogatory to many folks I know.
> I am sure there are worse terms to describe your stereotypes.
Again, not my stereotypes, I don't own them, didn't start them, and don't perpetuate them; I've never spoken about West Virginia outside of this thread.
I'm glad that I was misinformed, in fact, I have to give credit where credit is due: here's an impressive fact on West Virginia from U.S. News -
West Virginia is the 10th most affordable state in the U.S. and ranks third for equal opportunity, scoring especially high in education equality, by race.
> West Virginia is the 10th most affordable state in the U.S. and ranks third for equal opportunity, scoring especially high in education equality, by race.
Unfortunately, that might just reflect the poor quality overall – or the general homogeneity of the population – than some type of progressive success.
Maybe that's still considered a "good thing"; c.f. the infamous Thatcher video:
Pretty much to buy anyone, any 25, any 250. It is interesting if Volkswagen was ready to pay for the silence, or was it just unnoticed low-level decision that allowed misbehaving vechicles to the market?
44 comments
[ 2.1 ms ] story [ 92.3 ms ] thread>They all ended up in West Virginia, not exactly the America you dream of when you come from Chennai or Bangalore. Probably not even when you come from Biel.
>Since then, their careers haven't really advanced in any significant way
>he looks less like an emissions specialist and more like a South Asian IT expert
I find these type of statements pretty racist. I mean what does it have to do with the reporting? I'm not sure it adds to the dramatic narrative/buildup. Having said that, I suppose for most people who move to the US, there is a certain picture in mind of New York and LA among other things, so there's that. But it sounds racist in the back of my head, not to mention the IT part.
The funny thing is, it's totally hogwash. Brilliant minds exist all around us, in every locale.
It's also "job-ist" (is there a word for that? if not, that's a lexical gap)
Anyway, now I feel dirty being an IT expert.
As a German, it is one of the most interesting things that I have ever learned from reading hacker news: according to American standards, all of Germany would be considered racist, even Baader/Meinhoff-worshipping leftists. The same insight helps me immensely in accepting that all those things in America that trigger German "this is terribly, terribly nationalist!" sensibilities probably do not actually mean that the USA are gearing up to annex some neighboring countries by force. Because that is what we think of when we see flags over factory floors, hear the "USA! USA!" chant or someone raising from their seat upon hearing their national anthem and maybe even -gasp!- put their right hand higher than the waist line. Here in Germany, only a racist would do that (because nationalism and racism are inseparable in countries that do not share America's long tradition of immigration).
In short: our cultures are full of shortcut heuristics for the kind of dangerous group-chauvinism we want to avoid. It's usually not a problem to have them (I'm not here to rally against "PC crap"), but they absolutely don't translate across borders.
This article is honestly quite objective, and should invite some introspection if your first instinct is to be offended.
Your anology doesn't quite line up. What you point out are specific actions of people. You are now easily empowered to go ask that person why they stood up to the national anthem or ask someone else. The line quoted here is an impression of a German author of what an other culture percieves. This just doesn't sound like good reporting. Is the author projecting third world impressions or projecting what _anyone_ reaching America would feel about non costal cities? The tone of the rest of the article suggests the latter, but what really stood out was the added impression of someone from Switzerland. Growing up in a culture with with tons of colonial baggage, I don't see why I shouldn't feel offended.
In my comment I tried to specifically point out that it was more demeaning than actual racism with some of the statements which are two very different forms of offense.
You mention the whole "PC" thing which is a good area for discussion on this article. Americans (myself included) have this SJW culture around being politically correct and I think it's leading society more towards inherent racism. My old college friends came from all over the world, and we would always joke about the stereotypes of everyone's background. They'd call me 'Murica and I understood where they were coming from, as did they when we had names for each other. Nowadays it's common that someone would be offended if we joked in the same manner, and we're missing the ability to break the ice between our cultures/ethnicities and be friends without perceiving it as prejudice.
That sot to say that the Uk and USA don't have major issues with BME integration /Racisim
It reads like there is additional content missing at the end.
It is nice for WVU and those students to receive recognition via the article, but the article leaves much to be desired.
I also come from a different perspective on this article because I actually grew up in Morgantown, WV, where my dad was a professor. Looking at WVU as the middle of nowhere, along with some of the other mentioned comments, is pretty reasonable. And the article seemed to have no bias about the quality of work done be these students and their lab in general. If the right people read these articles it would probably give these guys' career a big boost.
In the U.S., West Virginia is associated mainly with forests, the heroin epidemic in its cities and its backwoods population, who refer to themselves as hillbillies. West Virginia is definitely not associated with environmental protection. "Rolling coal" is a popular hobby in these parts - it involves removing the particulate filters from a diesel pickup truck, driving to the nearest city, waiting until a Prius or a cyclist goes by, gunning the engine and roaring off, leaving a cloud of foul-smelling exhaust in its wake. That's what passes for humor in West Virginia.
Plenty offensive.
I have yet to meet anyone refer to themselves as a "hillbilly" in WV.
Most people outside of WV I have met associate it with coal, or white-water rafting, not forests.
"Rolling coal" - I have never heard of that term, nor have I seen this behavior. Nor would I agree that this "passes for humor".
Heroin is a problem, yes. However, that is not limited to WV.
Rolling Coal is accomplished by running the fuel to air ratio very rich, nearly all diesel motors cannot accomplish this without modifications to the engine and the emission control system. Generally this is a side effect of some modifications meant for increasing power by increasing fuel flow but taking it past the point all of the fuel can be burned; either on purpose to roll coal or on accident because of mistuning. The idea behind rolling coal, in my experience, is showing off your diesel motor which is many times more expensive and powerful than standard gasoline motor, and showing off it has been modified for even more power.
The article is most likely vaguely referring to this "Prius Repellent" YouTube video when it talks about rolling coal: https://youtu.be/hsC0kLNSLAQ
Although at the same time you have more popular Youtubes talking about how rolling coal is just a little too obnoxious: https://youtu.be/HjCPW2nj7do
The primary purpose behind rolling coal is not to attack Priuses, although it is absolutely terrible for the environment, and to nearly everyone very obnoxious.
The article conflates rolling coal with "Prius hunting", which probably isn't intentional. The Wikipedia article for rolling coal also does this. The main reason for my post was differntating these two ideas. Online this seems quite politicized. Perhaps it is exactly that, and my experiences are just different, that's the problem with anecdotes. But my experiences come from car shows where people from across the country travel to host events. A truck will "roll coal" while on a dynamometer with only other "truck guys" around who are not bothered by the fumes.
Although while I was searching for the videos I was using as examples in my previous comment, I saw many videos such as "rolling coal on protesters" and many "Prius hunting videos". I find actions such as these poor form and I'm not trying to defend them. Both are obnoxious and polluting, but only one is intentionally malicious in nature.
A few links referencing rolling coal and its origins: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/jmb4d8/nothing-wrong-with... http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/201... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal
I've met self-identified rednecks many times, but only one self-identified hillbilly (lives in VA). I think the former term has more memetic potency at the moment; hillbilly seems more outmoded (probably why they used it), and even seems to conjure a more hippie aesthetic, somehow.
I'd agree on coal or white-water rafting as stereotypes over forests. WV does have some nice parks and forests, though.
Reviewing the other linked articles from Wikipedia (the majority of which were from 2007), I could not find one referencing WV, but multiple other states.
Not to get into a Virginia versus West Virginia debate (Virginia != West Virginia), are the "rolling coal" experiences of yours because you are driving a Prius or bicycle?
I agree about the "redneck" term, but that is associated with any area, and often embraced, "hillbilly" is considered derogatory to many folks I know.
Again, not my stereotypes, I don't own them, didn't start them, and don't perpetuate them; I've never spoken about West Virginia outside of this thread.
I'm glad that I was misinformed, in fact, I have to give credit where credit is due: here's an impressive fact on West Virginia from U.S. News -
West Virginia is the 10th most affordable state in the U.S. and ranks third for equal opportunity, scoring especially high in education equality, by race.
Unfortunately, that might just reflect the poor quality overall – or the general homogeneity of the population – than some type of progressive success.
Maybe that's still considered a "good thing"; c.f. the infamous Thatcher video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw
"You'd rather the poor be poorer provided the rich were less rich!"
Pretty much to buy anyone, any 25, any 250. It is interesting if Volkswagen was ready to pay for the silence, or was it just unnoticed low-level decision that allowed misbehaving vechicles to the market?