Oddly enough, I was singing the Spider-Man theme to myself last night as I was walking around the house. 20 years later, and it still randomly gets stuck in my head.
I was just explaining Knightmare to an American the other day - I assume this was only aired in the UK. If they recreated that show as a VR app that might finally get me to buy the hardware.
This cartoon was my jam. Growing up on comics as a kid with idols like Tony Stark, etc and all the sci-fi future stuff, just made me want to become an engineer/scientist.
For a generation of kids like me the definitive story of X-Men wasn't the comics or the movies, it was this TV show. The complexity and the maturity of the stories in the series might even go beyond the current Marvel cinematic universe.
True. All the Marvel films are broadly the same. They've got absolutely nothing to say about the world or the human condition but they are of course entertaining (well, some of them anyway).
>They've got absolutely nothing to say about the world or the human condition
Which is what made this show so special. Wolverine probably spent more time dealing with the death of Morph in this Saturday morning cartoon than characters in the MCU spend dealing with the death of their twin in PG-13 movies.
Well, part of that is movies (especially action movies) aren't well equipped to deal with those things. The cartoon gets ~20 minutes a week for weeks on end, the movie gets ~2-2.5 hours in one sitting. TV show can devote an entire episode to something like that, or continue bringing it up in 1-2 minute segments. Movie has to get it over and done with.
It isn't about length of screen time. The different mediums have different opportunities and obligations. What is important is the emotional weight of the screen time given. Plenty of movies, even super hero movies like Logan, are able to give that weight in short bursts.
"absolutely nothing to say" is a bit extreme. The Winter Soldier had a very clear political message, Guardians has always been about artificial family, every origin story movie is an individual overcoming some relatable human flaw. They aren't complicated, but they aren't Transformers/BvS.
The victory lap movies tend to fall into your categorization at least (Avengers, Civil War, maybe Thor 3).
Iron Man was definitely fresh and new when it came out. But a lot of MCU movies have been more of the same. A lot of villains are simply evil counter-parts to the hero (the exceptions are basically Thor / Loki... Guardians of the Galaxy, and Spiderman).
I still enjoy MCU movies, and have watched most of them. But the formula is becoming stale and old for sure.
many of the marvel movies insist that power properly belongs to the strong, and that weak bureaucrats and politicians will be corrupted. You can identify the morally strong in the Marvel Universe by looking for the physically powerful. They certainly have something to say, and it's the typical propaganda of super hero fiction.
I strongly disagree with this. Part of Captain America’s story was that he was only given physical strength because he deserved it as a moral individual. Iron Man spends a few movies feeling guilty for being a war profiteer and trying to make up for it by doing good, and then in the post-Avengers movies he struggles even more with the idea that his heroics have resulted in just as much death and destruction as his weapons sales. Doctor Strange gains his power by being willing to question his beliefs and then work really hard. And of course there’s Spider Man, who tries to use his powers for good but ends up bumbling around and screwing things up most of the time because he needs to learn that teenagers don’t actually know everything and the wisdom of age is important. Winter Soldier specifically railed against giving the government too much power because it’s impossoble to ensure it will be used for good.
The cinematic universe isn't a high bar to clear, but these stories were really mature compared to other children's TV shows then and since.
Killing a major character in basically the first episode was, highly unusual.
And forcing the other X-Men to deal with that loss in subsequent episodes, isn't something you see in children's TV EVER.
Even when they finally brought back Morph (This is a comic book show, no one can die forever), he wasn't really the same. Everything didn't go back to being ok, he was permanently damaged and had PTSD from the experience and was unable to join the X-Men.
As a 6 year old who had family members with PTSD, this cartoon connected with me like nothing else would until I was a teenager and able to read real literature.
Pretty sad that this show was able to kill a major character while the MCU seems entirely unable to do so, up to the point where it seriously harms the story.
I can't tell apart nostalgia from value, but I miss a part of the feel of scifi fantasy animation of the 80s. The mainstream culture was really high on the space/tech idea.
> Disher: I remember us smoking in the recording studio. I remember because when I got pregnant, I had to ask people to not smoke when I was in the room. It just boggles my mind now, that we were allowed to light up in a recording studio.
It's amazing how that sort of thing gets hard to remember. Reading that paragraph, I remember now that when I was 12 or so, we'd go out to restaurants which had smoking or non- sections - and the only real "separation" between the two was the main aisle from the entrance to the back.
Boggles the mind to imagine something like that now. A guy walked into a pizza place with a pinched off cigarette over lunch, and I did a double-take.
In Marvel's comics back in the day, they ran a one-page feature called Bullpen Bulletins that had news, columns, and various pieces of trivia about what was going on at Marvel. They originally did one a month, but starting with the beginning of 1993 they started running a different Bullpen Bulletins every week. One week a month, they ran a column by Marvel's Senior Executive Editor, Mark Gruenwald, called "Mark's Remarks", where he wrote about whatever was on his mind.
In one of those columns, Gru wrote about how he detests smoking and he doesn't allow people to smoke in his office. I remember stumbling on that column a few years ago, when I was going through some old comics, and it's just bizarre to me that you could smoke in any other part of Marvel's offices as recently as 1993-4 (I don't remember exactly when that column was from, but it was one of those two years) and that whether or not you could smoke in somebody's office was up to whoever the office belonged to. And I grew up in that era!
I've been watching Perry Mason, from the late '50s/'60s. The sheer volume of smoking and drinking weirds me out. And I remember before smoking/non-smoking sections.
The 90s were truly a golden age for TV adaptations of coming books. X-Men,the Batman & Superman animated series,along with Spiderman and more were classics.
Young Justice was really good. Supposedly they are bringing it back for a third season. Teen Titans Go is really strange, like ren and stimpy, constantly in the bizarre, but maybe that’s why young boys like it (Young Justice was supposedly cancelled because it attracted too many female viewers).
But most of the Marvel ones are a massive dose of cringe/slapstick/fart with the odd moment of serious in what is supposedly a "serious" series.
There is no indication that there is supposed to be a "joke" show, they just dump so many (bad) jokes in there that it become a joke show by "accident".
And if we want to talk good Spider-Man shows we should not ignore the Sony made Spectacular Spider-Man, that IMO ranks well above both Ultimate and perhaps even the more recent one.
This in large part because while there were jokes etc, it enhanced the action rather than watered it down. One example would the first fight between Spider-Man and Green Goblin, where both had quips to deliver while both of them proved to be competent fighters.
In contrast Ultimate was a pile of monkey screams and timeouts as Spidey strained out some attempt at a joke.
As a child, I thought Dungeons and Dragons, X-Men, Spider Man (the 90s version), and the DCAU series (Batman, Superman, etc.) were really fantastic cartoon series. I've seen some of them since then, and they still hold up really well.
Most of the comic book and related shows today, including Marvel's, seem comparatively unwatchable and immature. They are definitely not designed to be for anyone but the youngest children. Young Justice is a notable exception.
The soon ending computer animated Turtles series that Nicktoons made (they now own the franchise) has been "interesting". Thanks to the art choice, some episodes were borderline nightmare fuel. And the last season even had a trilogy of episodes set to a Mad Max like future.
And some episodes also involve interaction between characters from the 90s show and the current show.
Never mind that quite often the turtles are seen watching fictional cartoon shows patterned after 80s/90s shows...
Depends what you mean by golden age. In terms of sheer sum of quality, agreed. In terms of maximal amount of quality, and/or affect on the public psyche, Looney Tunes really does hold the mantle. Kids today aren't familiar with a lot of 90s cartoons (though they're familiar with a lot of the characters from other media. But to draw the distinction, what kid today knows who Jubilee is? She was a major character in the X-men cartoon, but only a bit character in the movies), but even though there hasn't really been anything major by Looney Tunes since Space Jam (there have been a couple of short lived things like the Looney Tunes Show, but hardly anything of note), kids still know who they are.
"Previously on X-men", Who else hears the voice of cyclops?
I can't be the only one to have pieced together the story of "days of future past" in a non-linear fashion because you keep missing episodes due to Saturday school?
Ha ha ha, "Saturday school", was chinese class for me. So in the attempt to keep me connected to my ethic roots, I had to go to school Saturday morning to learn Chinese.
It was horrible and the only thing i learned was how to cheat on tests. The very of idea of having a 6-12 year old on Saturday morning sit and memorize (not learn) characters brings chills down my spine.
Couldn't agree more with all the comments on quality and maturity of X-Men, Spiderman, and Batman series of that era. Paired with reading the comics they really cemented the Marvel and DC universes for me.
Have add in Exo Squad! While it's not a comic book adaptation, it's a kids-targeted cartoon from that 90s era with very mature themes. Great first-gen action figures and genesis game as well.
I've rewatched the series recently (can purchase on iTunes and find on youtube) and it still holds up. Would love to see it as a live-action series and/or in cinematic form.
Wow! I completely forgot about Ronin Warriors. I need to find and rewatch them—I hope they're available somewhere. I had those action figures as well. They were great.
Which Exo figures did/do you have? (I had Lt. Marsh, Wolf, Marsala, and Phaeton or Typhonus (can't recall which).
I was just thinking how much better The Gifted would be if it were animated like the 90s cartoon. Somehow comics don't translate well into low-budget live action TV.
To be fair, it's rare that low-budget live-action action shows work well. It's even rarer if the action requires supernatural or science fiction elements.
This was one of the most memorable cartoons from my teens!
It was dubbed to Arabic by either a Syrian or Lebanese studio and was broadcast on MBC3, a Saudi cartoon/kids channel, in the mid-2000s. I may be mistaken on the channel, but the time frame should be accurate.
As a side note, probably 80% of all cartoons from the 90s onwards are dubbed by a few Lebanese, Syrian, and Egyptian studios.
The previous generation of cartoons, around the 70s and 80s, were mainly dubbed in Kuwait. Future Boy Conan[1] and Grendizer were from this era; if you ask an Arab about either of these two cartoons and they don't know them, they are not Arab!
[1]: The show's name in Arabic is A'adnan wa Leena, which are the Arabic names of the two main characters, separated by the conjunction wa ("and").
Interesting that the famous 6-stick X-Men arcade game, also released in 1992, used the character designs from the failed 1989 pilot episode rather than the 1992 animated series. I remember thinking how weird it was that the video game characters were wearing the wrong costumes.
I remember thinking the same thing. I thought the costumes were from the older comics, though. I didn't know about the failed pilot. Good stuff, thanks.
> Eric Lewald : The Hollywood normalcy is you provide a number one hit and the money starts flowing. What happened with us was we had a number one hit, but it was four or five companies working on this. One of them was Saban. What he did after the first season was cut $500 off the script fee for the writers.
>
> Julia Lewald: Me being one of the writers.
>
> Eric Lewald: His rationale was, "it's a hit. They want to be part of it, so they'll take less money."
>
> JuliaLewald: "And if not, there's a line out the door of people who will."
Haim Saban was notorious for underpaying his people. Half the cast of Power Rangers, another Saban show, quit during the second season because they were working for peanuts. IIRC, they only got paid $1000 per episode. That was low even by 1994 standards.
For this style of interview, I don't think they are necessarily in the same room at the same time but I think the reporter is splicing together separate interviews using a common set of questions. Hence the lack of interaction or responses between interviewees.
If you don't want to do something, there's someone else that will sacrifice to do it.
Works for companies too. VFX companies will take on a project they'll lose money on just to have a foot in the door with a studio and work on a big movie. This usually means a combination of offshoring and running people ragged.
The Duck Tales reboot is decent. Bob's Burgers is at worst pleasant. Rick and Morty, Archer, Star vs. The Forces of Evil, ... there are plenty of good cartoons.
And that's assuming you're not including Japanese animation as "cartoons".
Unlike many other 90s cartoons at that time I totally have no memory of seeing this on German television. Wikipedia says they dubbed (yes, everything's dubbed here) the first 26 episodes then didn't continue and only in 2001 as a rerun on a different channel season 3 and 4 were added.
I was amazed, even then, about how advanced the story telling was.
They had one scene in the time traveling season, where Cable said something along the lines of: "It's just like the nuclear disarmament of the 21st century, every country kept one."
It's a pity that they didn't get the voice actors for Professor Xavier or Magneto in the roundtable discussion. They were the most interesting of the batch, particularly Magneto. I don't think any other version of Magneto comes close to nailing Chris Claremont's interpretation of the character.
>> There was incredible pressure to change it around and make it younger, sillier, or give them a pet dog. To dumb it down or make it younger. Luckily, everybody on the creative side banded together and had, "No, you'll have to fire me" moments.
Now more than ever, I wish more shows were like this.
I'm one of the 90s kids who watched this series. I'd not realized that there'd been executive pressure to make the show into another 20 minute toy commercial -- I never got that vibe from watching it. So, IMO, they successfully resisted that pressure, which I'm glad of.
I was only half-aware of it at the time, but I absolutely loved the fact that it wasn't overly silly, wacky or talking down to me. It offered serious, mature storytelling with relatable characters, and a longer serialized plot. I couldn't quite articulate those qualities at my young age, but at some level, I felt their lack in other cartoons. Even if I couldn't explain why, I knew what I was watching was good.
In that way, it reminds me of another cartoon from the early 90s, DiC's Saturday morning version of Sonic the Hedgehog (dubbed "SatAM" by fans the to distinguish it from the other Sonic cartoon which ran concurrently on weekdays). SatAM also tried it's hand at a darker setting, more mature story telling, and in its second season, a longer serialized plot. And again, I recognized quality and lapped it up. Not to say it was without flaws; quality zig-zagged through the show's run. But like X-men, it was neither infantilizing or preachy, and I loved it for that.
Now, cartoons are no longer _only_ for young children; take for example Cartoon Network's Adult Swim block, or South Park. But I think there still should be some kids cartoons that attempt serious storytelling alongside the comedic ones. Not having kids, I've not been closely following kids cartoons. Are there any of that latter type presently?
Gravity Falls was a big hit with older viewers(grand supernatural mysteries plotline underpinning various family drama). There's also a new Ducktales - I've only caught the premiere of that but it looks like a fitting reboot. Steven Universe has been very good, and before that there was Adventure Time.
Good all-ages shows are definitely there in the mix, although the pressure to cut everything down to formulaic audience pandering has remained a constant.
I feel seriously remiss for forgetting Adventure Time now. Gravity Falls has been recommended to me before, though it escaped my memory since I've actually never seen it.
Even though it's a miniseries, I do feel like I should perhaps mention Over The Garden Wall for a few reasons: 1. More than once I've been told that if I liked Over the Garden Wall, I'd like Gravity Falls, 2. Over the Garden Wall was produced by Patrick McHale, creative director and frequent writer for Adventure Time, and 3. It's that damn good -- the basic story is presented simply enough that a kid mature enough to not get freaked out by spooky things would enjoy it, and there addition themes woven in that story that adults would enjoy it too (I know I did).
This was huge in Brazil, too, at the time. Though with some setbacks, when aired in open/FTA networks. For example, the multi-part episodes were cut down (i.e. destroyed) as a single episode -- we only discovered they were actually two episodes a couple of years later, when cable tv got popular and the show aired on Fox Kids without the mutilations.
Also there were some translation mistakes (specially in the first episodes). However, the brazilian voice actors were amazing and extremely memorable -- Brazil had an incredible pool of voice actors in the 80's and 90's. It was so memorable that the same voice actors who did the animated series were used to produce the dubbed versions of the movies a decade+ later, a rare gift given to fans in these lands.
As for the comics, they were also a few years behind US. Uncanny X-Men #262 was published when the show first aired. So as kids coming from the show to the comics, we were also pretty confused about uniforms and team members.
93 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 165 ms ] threadI couldn't stand the 1989 [X-Men:_Pryde_of_the_X-Men] theme song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1qrbAGsEOw&feature=youtu.be...
facepalm
For reference: theme songs from Fantastic Four, Hulk, Iron Man, Spiderman and Xmen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC43s8fSsfc
"Spider blood, spider blood, radioactive spider blood..."
My favourite show wasn't a cartoon though, it was Knightmare. Which is probably easiest explained as a very British take on Dungeons and Dragons.
The theme of the MCU is, roughly speaking, war, with a simple thread between the movies building towards a big one.
Which is what made this show so special. Wolverine probably spent more time dealing with the death of Morph in this Saturday morning cartoon than characters in the MCU spend dealing with the death of their twin in PG-13 movies.
The victory lap movies tend to fall into your categorization at least (Avengers, Civil War, maybe Thor 3).
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zPEtyAsM94 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaNWFHLy2NI
Iron Man was definitely fresh and new when it came out. But a lot of MCU movies have been more of the same. A lot of villains are simply evil counter-parts to the hero (the exceptions are basically Thor / Loki... Guardians of the Galaxy, and Spiderman).
I still enjoy MCU movies, and have watched most of them. But the formula is becoming stale and old for sure.
I could go on, but hopefully I’ve made my point!
Killing a major character in basically the first episode was, highly unusual.
And forcing the other X-Men to deal with that loss in subsequent episodes, isn't something you see in children's TV EVER.
Even when they finally brought back Morph (This is a comic book show, no one can die forever), he wasn't really the same. Everything didn't go back to being ok, he was permanently damaged and had PTSD from the experience and was unable to join the X-Men.
As a 6 year old who had family members with PTSD, this cartoon connected with me like nothing else would until I was a teenager and able to read real literature.
I can still hum the theme song.
It's amazing how that sort of thing gets hard to remember. Reading that paragraph, I remember now that when I was 12 or so, we'd go out to restaurants which had smoking or non- sections - and the only real "separation" between the two was the main aisle from the entrance to the back.
Boggles the mind to imagine something like that now. A guy walked into a pizza place with a pinched off cigarette over lunch, and I did a double-take.
In one of those columns, Gru wrote about how he detests smoking and he doesn't allow people to smoke in his office. I remember stumbling on that column a few years ago, when I was going through some old comics, and it's just bizarre to me that you could smoke in any other part of Marvel's offices as recently as 1993-4 (I don't remember exactly when that column was from, but it was one of those two years) and that whether or not you could smoke in somebody's office was up to whoever the office belonged to. And I grew up in that era!
Marvel on the other hand too often descend into fart jokes and similar cringe moments.
I liked Ultimate Spider Man; that was not as good as the one in the 90's but better than a lot of other cartoons from recent years.
In general though I agree, I especially think DC does a good job with their animated movies.
But most of the Marvel ones are a massive dose of cringe/slapstick/fart with the odd moment of serious in what is supposedly a "serious" series.
There is no indication that there is supposed to be a "joke" show, they just dump so many (bad) jokes in there that it become a joke show by "accident".
And if we want to talk good Spider-Man shows we should not ignore the Sony made Spectacular Spider-Man, that IMO ranks well above both Ultimate and perhaps even the more recent one.
This in large part because while there were jokes etc, it enhanced the action rather than watered it down. One example would the first fight between Spider-Man and Green Goblin, where both had quips to deliver while both of them proved to be competent fighters.
In contrast Ultimate was a pile of monkey screams and timeouts as Spidey strained out some attempt at a joke.
Most of the comic book and related shows today, including Marvel's, seem comparatively unwatchable and immature. They are definitely not designed to be for anyone but the youngest children. Young Justice is a notable exception.
And some episodes also involve interaction between characters from the 90s show and the current show.
Never mind that quite often the turtles are seen watching fictional cartoon shows patterned after 80s/90s shows...
Don't forget the other Marvel cartoons as well: Hulk, Iron Man, and Fantastic Four.
The DCAU holds up much better. Even Tiny Toons, Pinky and the Brain, Animaniacs etc. holds up better.
I can't be the only one to have pieced together the story of "days of future past" in a non-linear fashion because you keep missing episodes due to Saturday school?
It was horrible and the only thing i learned was how to cheat on tests. The very of idea of having a 6-12 year old on Saturday morning sit and memorize (not learn) characters brings chills down my spine.
Have add in Exo Squad! While it's not a comic book adaptation, it's a kids-targeted cartoon from that 90s era with very mature themes. Great first-gen action figures and genesis game as well.
I've rewatched the series recently (can purchase on iTunes and find on youtube) and it still holds up. Would love to see it as a live-action series and/or in cinematic form.
In a similar vein of great cartoon + action figure combos of the era, Ronin Warriors.
Which Exo figures did/do you have? (I had Lt. Marsh, Wolf, Marsala, and Phaeton or Typhonus (can't recall which).
The action figures were the best. I had Torres.
To be fair, it's rare that low-budget live-action action shows work well. It's even rarer if the action requires supernatural or science fiction elements.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSuvOVH0aSQ
It was dubbed to Arabic by either a Syrian or Lebanese studio and was broadcast on MBC3, a Saudi cartoon/kids channel, in the mid-2000s. I may be mistaken on the channel, but the time frame should be accurate.
As a side note, probably 80% of all cartoons from the 90s onwards are dubbed by a few Lebanese, Syrian, and Egyptian studios.
The previous generation of cartoons, around the 70s and 80s, were mainly dubbed in Kuwait. Future Boy Conan[1] and Grendizer were from this era; if you ask an Arab about either of these two cartoons and they don't know them, they are not Arab!
[1]: The show's name in Arabic is A'adnan wa Leena, which are the Arabic names of the two main characters, separated by the conjunction wa ("and").
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa1RMD1f5Es
It has some great interviews with the writers and producers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men_(1992_video_game)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men:_Pryde_of_the_X-Men
Brutal.
If you don't want to do something, there's someone else that will sacrifice to do it.
Works for companies too. VFX companies will take on a project they'll lose money on just to have a foot in the door with a studio and work on a big movie. This usually means a combination of offshoring and running people ragged.
And that's assuming you're not including Japanese animation as "cartoons".
...Pu-pu-pu-puppies...
They had one scene in the time traveling season, where Cable said something along the lines of: "It's just like the nuclear disarmament of the 21st century, every country kept one."
Game theory in a kids show? Awesome.
Now more than ever, I wish more shows were like this.
The Japanese intro for those of you who haven't seen it.
I was only half-aware of it at the time, but I absolutely loved the fact that it wasn't overly silly, wacky or talking down to me. It offered serious, mature storytelling with relatable characters, and a longer serialized plot. I couldn't quite articulate those qualities at my young age, but at some level, I felt their lack in other cartoons. Even if I couldn't explain why, I knew what I was watching was good.
In that way, it reminds me of another cartoon from the early 90s, DiC's Saturday morning version of Sonic the Hedgehog (dubbed "SatAM" by fans the to distinguish it from the other Sonic cartoon which ran concurrently on weekdays). SatAM also tried it's hand at a darker setting, more mature story telling, and in its second season, a longer serialized plot. And again, I recognized quality and lapped it up. Not to say it was without flaws; quality zig-zagged through the show's run. But like X-men, it was neither infantilizing or preachy, and I loved it for that.
Now, cartoons are no longer _only_ for young children; take for example Cartoon Network's Adult Swim block, or South Park. But I think there still should be some kids cartoons that attempt serious storytelling alongside the comedic ones. Not having kids, I've not been closely following kids cartoons. Are there any of that latter type presently?
Good all-ages shows are definitely there in the mix, although the pressure to cut everything down to formulaic audience pandering has remained a constant.
Even though it's a miniseries, I do feel like I should perhaps mention Over The Garden Wall for a few reasons: 1. More than once I've been told that if I liked Over the Garden Wall, I'd like Gravity Falls, 2. Over the Garden Wall was produced by Patrick McHale, creative director and frequent writer for Adventure Time, and 3. It's that damn good -- the basic story is presented simply enough that a kid mature enough to not get freaked out by spooky things would enjoy it, and there addition themes woven in that story that adults would enjoy it too (I know I did).
It even has one of the most tragic characters I can think of.
The show has a very long storyline and evolves little by little:
Also there were some translation mistakes (specially in the first episodes). However, the brazilian voice actors were amazing and extremely memorable -- Brazil had an incredible pool of voice actors in the 80's and 90's. It was so memorable that the same voice actors who did the animated series were used to produce the dubbed versions of the movies a decade+ later, a rare gift given to fans in these lands.
As for the comics, they were also a few years behind US. Uncanny X-Men #262 was published when the show first aired. So as kids coming from the show to the comics, we were also pretty confused about uniforms and team members.