ok. people can be offended by things that weren't intended to offend them. this does happen from time to time.
buy why would the speaker withdraw instead of contacting the event organizers? if it bothered her, she wouldn't necessarily have to go into any detail as to why she found it offensive. she should just chew them out for this debacle and threaten to withdraw if they don't alter the image.
this whole thing seems like a poor choice by the event organizers, followed by a poor reaction from a speaker, which led to a poor response from the organizers.
you aren't automatically "right" just because the other guy is wrong.
Perspective - if someone photoshopped my face onto pancho villa I could choose to be undermined or be a good sport about it, regardless of how wrong the other party may have been.
I will say this, being outraged may vault her into the limelight and accelerate her name recognition, if not for a moment. Almost sounds like an incentive to choose to be a victim
I think you missed my point where i would be offended and still handle it with grace.
Oh and to shortcircuit the strawman observation, I've been in many professional situations where my latino heritage is used in a malicious and insulting way which offends me but I CHOOSE a constructive non confrontational conflict resolution that includes dialogue
The non-adults who are set off by (potentially anything) and then escalate to public forums to demonize others instead of themselves reacting with empathy or resilience then say what adults act like. Funny.
Rather rash reaction after such a self-admitted sacrifice "HALFWAY ACROSS THE WURLLLLDDDDD" which sidestepped the initial reachout and request for mediation. Almost sounds like a bad ben stiller romcom trope of the whole ordeal can be sorted out via a short dialogue.
Kind of reminds me of the final scene of jane austins Mafia! Where madam president asks if her husband, the godfather, killed everyone.
only to see that the conference organizers had photoshopped my face onto a sexualized image of Wonder Woman without my consent, printed it out, and framed it.
Isn’t it just an image of Wonder Woman, in full kit? Moreover, this iteration was recently hailed as a bit of a kickass lady, rather than a sex symbol. What makes this “sexualized” rather than a compliment about being like a Wonder Woman?
The problem is that all superheroes can be considered sex symbols, they're all examples of the greatest that people can achieve in terms of attitude, physical fitness, etc. One could argue the whole superhero thing is problematic.
I was at an Elastic conference in Poland where there were all sorts of ads which would be considered offensive here. Like one depicting a Native American chief in full head dress spouting some vague Indian-ish proverb with a tech slant.
I hope you meant it in a good way. There's very very few good things about Eastern Europe. But the "open minded humor" and ability to both take and receive jokes that would offend others is one of the good things. Humor has rarely been "malicious" and discriminative here, like in more developed European countries or the US. EE never actually had things like slavery or serious racial discrimination (the Rroma people are a good example of that actually - they have been so well tolerated that they never actually integrated... not that that is a good thing), and communism actually brought women closer to equality status in the workplace. This made jokes that are "charged" in other places of the world be very OK here.
Yeah, it's kind of the "South Park of Europe" so you need to have a taste for this kind of thing to enjoy it.
And, unfortunately, it's disappearing... people are getting too thin-skinned and liberal-corporatist there too. And nobody can be blaimed for that either, since pulling towards the opposite direction would be pulling towards the East and that's a no no. Better thin-skinned liberal pro-European than getting even a millimeter closer whatever toxic pseudo-authoritarian concoction is brewing around Rusia nowadays...
> There's very very few good things about Eastern Europe.
The positive intent behind your comment is clear, but please don't post like this to HN. It crosses into, or closely enough resembles, nationalistic attack.
Commenting like this about the place you yourself are from isn't, unfortunately, much different in terms of toxic internet effects, so on HN, please just don't. I'm sure you can find a more precise and neutral way to say what you want to say.
I have no intent whatsoever to avoid "toxic internet effects" or "nationalistic attack". There's room for more love in the world, just as there's room for more hate, the latter is just as useful.
Ironically, your comment shows exactly that you "don't grok", or simply don't enjoy, the kind of sometimes intentionally toxico-aggressive humor I was referring to ;)
Sometime you incite a bit of hate and generate some toxic effects on purpose just 'cause it's... fun. And it's perfectly OK as long as you sincerely 100% lacks any aim/purpose/agenda and make sure nobody gains anything from it (it's OK if everyone loses equally from it :P).
EDIT +: And it helps people chill, relax, and live in peace, kind of like a "hate vaccine"... as long as you're surrounded by people that are not too sensitive to "grok it". I think in general, worldwide, people need some "hate vaccination" to desensitize them a bit and decrease worldwide volatility. We're becoming too edgy and close to the red button if we don't realize there's "good" in any kind of "evil" attitude.
This should be buried, and I would never invite her to speak again because she is drama.
This is a trend of hyper sensitivity that requires everyone to walk on eggshells and wear kid gloves because who knows what could trigger the emotional reaction. Really, think about this - what if a company tries to do something fun, like for halloween, and buys clip-on ties for the guys and clip-on hair ties for the girls, but then someone flips out saying "I'm a guy why do i have to be stereotyped into having a tie, this is so sexist! (and the girls can do the reverse - I want a tie!). It's all just nonsense from people who don't have any emotional maturity, really.
Were the conference organizers trying to do the wrong thing? Doesn't sound like it at all. They probably thought "wonder woman is cool, this lady is cool, this image will be cool" and it was actually an act to celebrate her.
Instead she flips out. Great, real mature. Then she posts conversations she had with them and demonizes them. real mature.
And about her point of being sexualized - what if a guy had his face photoshopped onto he-man and that guy complained about being sexualized because now his face is on a shirtless strong dude. These arguments only go one way for people like this.
There is a line, of course, and sexual harassment is real. But this isn't anywhere near the line, its not even in the same field. We need to send a message back to her that she is the one being drama and needs to grow up and be a 'real adult' like she says she is.
You should grow up and learn to empathize with people different than you. It's not hard, you just have to imagine why someone with a different background than you might feel different about events than you do. She's much closer to this event, anyway, so I'm sure she's got a better opinion on it than you.
And about her point of being sexualized - what if a guy had his face photoshopped onto he-man and that guy complained about being sexualized because now his face is on a shirtless strong dude. These arguments only go one way for people like this.
You really don't see the difference between a male being sexualized among a mostly male audience, and a female who wants to be treated as a professional being sexualized? It's not that hard to figure out.
I think people might agree with you more if you wrote this in a tone that is even slightly condescending. If your approach to responding to people who disagree with you is trying to shame them for their behavior and shut them out then nobody will ever want to hear out your argument or consider it.
Anyways, I'd love to hear what defines a viewpoint as okay. Is it just the fact that it agrees with your viewpoint? I imagine you are some kind of authority on life who knows what every valid and invalid view is.
Maybe the guy is homosexual. Maybe his boyfriend will get pissed off now that the other homosexual men in the audience may react to him differently. Who knows
You even say that "a male being sexualized in a mostly male audience" is ok. HOW IS THAT OK? You literally can't make judgements about what is OK or not, because you can't empathize with each person in each scenario who "knows it better than you" and if someone gets upset because reasons
The point is even if everyone tries to act their best, you have no idea what will set her off, or the next person. And you are supporting a society where this behavior is OK. That is wrong.
Yeah, didn't say that was ok, I was trying to explain to you that maybe, just maybe, that scenario might make someone uncomfortable. You've decided her reason are invalid, that's not how it works.
You're complaining about her "demonizing" people, but you decided to make an account to demonize her without a shred of empathy. What's your excuse for why this bothers you so much?
Thank you for trying to respond a bit more rationally.
I'll break this down further: Of course she could be uncomfortable. Lets agree she's actually reasonable in doing so.
However, you don't know what will make one person uncomfortable or not. Can you? You can guess, you can try your best, but ultimately you have no idea what someone will find offense. Can you? Is there an algorithm for it? No.
Ok so that means that sometimes people will be offended by things that weren't intended to offend. Now we're to the point where the offended person gets to React. How do they handle it? Do they think of all the angles?
What I disagree with is her reaction. You don't seem to disagree. This is what I am saying should be changed.
Aaron- maybe her talk would have helped hundreds of people. All those people lost out. Could she have asked the organizers in advance to change the image? It looked like they these went out privately for approval. Maybe I mis-read that?
Lets assume that they never asked for her approval and 5 minutes before she goes up, the slide goes up and BAM she is uncomfortable and feels sexualized. Again, its about her reaction.
Others in this thread commented they would roll with it, be resilient, etc. This is what we, as society, should reinforce in each other. And yes, we have to make judgments about where the line is. I don't agree with her judgement, I'll state that clearly.
Think about this: I think she only thought about herself and PROJECTED onto everyone else that they would stereotype her. What if I were in the audience and saw the image and also thought "oh wow that sucks for her, ok i'll be extra supportive of her and try my best to not sexualize her".
So, when you support her reaction, you are actually making a negative judgement about everyone else in the audience as well. I'm curious how you think about that?
Maybe i'm missing another perspective. Please let me know and i'm curious to introspect my own thoughts further.
I can't help but think if she just went along with it, everyone would respect her as a woman in tech to a much higher degree because she would have actually been a woman in tech doing real tech talks. Now shes a woman in tech not doing tech talks. It's kind of sad.
The thing is, I agree with you about resilience, I agree with you about ignoring perceived slights, but I can't fault her personally for being offended in this way. I can't say she's really being unreasonable by being uncomfortable about that, she has a right to feel this way and even react in such a way without assuming that it's just about "drama" and emotional immaturity" (which you accused her of having).
If the organizers had handled it differently, it might be easier to see her as overreacting, but it's completely unprofessional to chide someone as acting like an adult in a professional setting like that, which probably only plays into whatever she's feeling with people not respecting her.
I felt you were condemning her position, which doesn't seem right. If my posts to you have been very one-sided and dismissive, that's because you were towards her claims.
Thank you for the more balanced posts and the discussion.
I don't think that placing all of the blame on her, as it seems you are doing (and flagging most likely as well) helps with the conversation in the industry right now. Your entire comment blames her response rather than the stimulus.
You can say that you don't like her public response, but the response of the organizers and inability to send a quick note before doing what they did places some of this on them as well. I submitted this in the hopes that someone who organizes a conference in the future can have the insight to ask before doing something like this.
> And about her point of being sexualized - what if a guy had his face photoshopped onto he-man and that guy complained about being sexualized because now his face is on a shirtless strong dude.
That would also be against the code of conduct and in poor taste. Don't measure with two measures - and neither should the organizers. Even not shirtless superheroes are overly sexualized, near-impossible male standards of asthetics, strength, and personality traits like superhero levels of patriotism and whatnot. Denying it's not problematic because it's men is applying a double standard.
You've crossed into personal attack and made a throwaway account to create—ironically—flamewar drama of your own. Both of these are bannable offenses on Hacker News, so I've banned this account.
Make accounts to break the HN guidelines with will eventually get your main account banned as well, so please don't do that.
It looks like they did Sarah Drashner as Supergirl [1], and Daniel Woelfel, Sean Grove, and Jared Forsyth as members of some team that I do not recognize from the uniforms [2].
It looks like they also had lots of superhero stuff, such as models and sets that people could take photos with, and in general were going for a them that React developers are superheros right up their with groups like The Avengers. See various photos and tweets here [3].
33 comments
[ 4.3 ms ] story [ 85.3 ms ] threadbuy why would the speaker withdraw instead of contacting the event organizers? if it bothered her, she wouldn't necessarily have to go into any detail as to why she found it offensive. she should just chew them out for this debacle and threaten to withdraw if they don't alter the image.
this whole thing seems like a poor choice by the event organizers, followed by a poor reaction from a speaker, which led to a poor response from the organizers.
you aren't automatically "right" just because the other guy is wrong.
This is not how adults handle situations.
I will say this, being outraged may vault her into the limelight and accelerate her name recognition, if not for a moment. Almost sounds like an incentive to choose to be a victim
Oh and to shortcircuit the strawman observation, I've been in many professional situations where my latino heritage is used in a malicious and insulting way which offends me but I CHOOSE a constructive non confrontational conflict resolution that includes dialogue
Kind of reminds me of the final scene of jane austins Mafia! Where madam president asks if her husband, the godfather, killed everyone.
Isn’t it just an image of Wonder Woman, in full kit? Moreover, this iteration was recently hailed as a bit of a kickass lady, rather than a sex symbol. What makes this “sexualized” rather than a compliment about being like a Wonder Woman?
(I'm not going to though, I enjoy the movies)
I was at an Elastic conference in Poland where there were all sorts of ads which would be considered offensive here. Like one depicting a Native American chief in full head dress spouting some vague Indian-ish proverb with a tech slant.
Yeah, it's kind of the "South Park of Europe" so you need to have a taste for this kind of thing to enjoy it.
And, unfortunately, it's disappearing... people are getting too thin-skinned and liberal-corporatist there too. And nobody can be blaimed for that either, since pulling towards the opposite direction would be pulling towards the East and that's a no no. Better thin-skinned liberal pro-European than getting even a millimeter closer whatever toxic pseudo-authoritarian concoction is brewing around Rusia nowadays...
The positive intent behind your comment is clear, but please don't post like this to HN. It crosses into, or closely enough resembles, nationalistic attack.
Commenting like this about the place you yourself are from isn't, unfortunately, much different in terms of toxic internet effects, so on HN, please just don't. I'm sure you can find a more precise and neutral way to say what you want to say.
Ironically, your comment shows exactly that you "don't grok", or simply don't enjoy, the kind of sometimes intentionally toxico-aggressive humor I was referring to ;)
Sometime you incite a bit of hate and generate some toxic effects on purpose just 'cause it's... fun. And it's perfectly OK as long as you sincerely 100% lacks any aim/purpose/agenda and make sure nobody gains anything from it (it's OK if everyone loses equally from it :P).
EDIT +: And it helps people chill, relax, and live in peace, kind of like a "hate vaccine"... as long as you're surrounded by people that are not too sensitive to "grok it". I think in general, worldwide, people need some "hate vaccination" to desensitize them a bit and decrease worldwide volatility. We're becoming too edgy and close to the red button if we don't realize there's "good" in any kind of "evil" attitude.
This is a trend of hyper sensitivity that requires everyone to walk on eggshells and wear kid gloves because who knows what could trigger the emotional reaction. Really, think about this - what if a company tries to do something fun, like for halloween, and buys clip-on ties for the guys and clip-on hair ties for the girls, but then someone flips out saying "I'm a guy why do i have to be stereotyped into having a tie, this is so sexist! (and the girls can do the reverse - I want a tie!). It's all just nonsense from people who don't have any emotional maturity, really.
Were the conference organizers trying to do the wrong thing? Doesn't sound like it at all. They probably thought "wonder woman is cool, this lady is cool, this image will be cool" and it was actually an act to celebrate her.
Instead she flips out. Great, real mature. Then she posts conversations she had with them and demonizes them. real mature.
And about her point of being sexualized - what if a guy had his face photoshopped onto he-man and that guy complained about being sexualized because now his face is on a shirtless strong dude. These arguments only go one way for people like this.
There is a line, of course, and sexual harassment is real. But this isn't anywhere near the line, its not even in the same field. We need to send a message back to her that she is the one being drama and needs to grow up and be a 'real adult' like she says she is.
And about her point of being sexualized - what if a guy had his face photoshopped onto he-man and that guy complained about being sexualized because now his face is on a shirtless strong dude. These arguments only go one way for people like this.
You really don't see the difference between a male being sexualized among a mostly male audience, and a female who wants to be treated as a professional being sexualized? It's not that hard to figure out.
We need to send a message back to her that she is the one being drama and needs to grow up and be a 'real adult' like she says she is.
Honestly that just sounds threatening, it's not alright.
And yet you call upon him to act like an adult.
Anyways, I'd love to hear what defines a viewpoint as okay. Is it just the fact that it agrees with your viewpoint? I imagine you are some kind of authority on life who knows what every valid and invalid view is.
You even say that "a male being sexualized in a mostly male audience" is ok. HOW IS THAT OK? You literally can't make judgements about what is OK or not, because you can't empathize with each person in each scenario who "knows it better than you" and if someone gets upset because reasons
The point is even if everyone tries to act their best, you have no idea what will set her off, or the next person. And you are supporting a society where this behavior is OK. That is wrong.
You're complaining about her "demonizing" people, but you decided to make an account to demonize her without a shred of empathy. What's your excuse for why this bothers you so much?
I'll break this down further: Of course she could be uncomfortable. Lets agree she's actually reasonable in doing so.
However, you don't know what will make one person uncomfortable or not. Can you? You can guess, you can try your best, but ultimately you have no idea what someone will find offense. Can you? Is there an algorithm for it? No.
Ok so that means that sometimes people will be offended by things that weren't intended to offend. Now we're to the point where the offended person gets to React. How do they handle it? Do they think of all the angles?
What I disagree with is her reaction. You don't seem to disagree. This is what I am saying should be changed.
Aaron- maybe her talk would have helped hundreds of people. All those people lost out. Could she have asked the organizers in advance to change the image? It looked like they these went out privately for approval. Maybe I mis-read that?
Lets assume that they never asked for her approval and 5 minutes before she goes up, the slide goes up and BAM she is uncomfortable and feels sexualized. Again, its about her reaction.
Others in this thread commented they would roll with it, be resilient, etc. This is what we, as society, should reinforce in each other. And yes, we have to make judgments about where the line is. I don't agree with her judgement, I'll state that clearly.
Think about this: I think she only thought about herself and PROJECTED onto everyone else that they would stereotype her. What if I were in the audience and saw the image and also thought "oh wow that sucks for her, ok i'll be extra supportive of her and try my best to not sexualize her".
So, when you support her reaction, you are actually making a negative judgement about everyone else in the audience as well. I'm curious how you think about that?
Maybe i'm missing another perspective. Please let me know and i'm curious to introspect my own thoughts further.
I can't help but think if she just went along with it, everyone would respect her as a woman in tech to a much higher degree because she would have actually been a woman in tech doing real tech talks. Now shes a woman in tech not doing tech talks. It's kind of sad.
If the organizers had handled it differently, it might be easier to see her as overreacting, but it's completely unprofessional to chide someone as acting like an adult in a professional setting like that, which probably only plays into whatever she's feeling with people not respecting her.
I felt you were condemning her position, which doesn't seem right. If my posts to you have been very one-sided and dismissive, that's because you were towards her claims.
Thank you for the more balanced posts and the discussion.
Tactfully tactful
You can say that you don't like her public response, but the response of the organizers and inability to send a quick note before doing what they did places some of this on them as well. I submitted this in the hopes that someone who organizes a conference in the future can have the insight to ask before doing something like this.
That would also be against the code of conduct and in poor taste. Don't measure with two measures - and neither should the organizers. Even not shirtless superheroes are overly sexualized, near-impossible male standards of asthetics, strength, and personality traits like superhero levels of patriotism and whatnot. Denying it's not problematic because it's men is applying a double standard.
Make accounts to break the HN guidelines with will eventually get your main account banned as well, so please don't do that.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
It looks like they did Sarah Drashner as Supergirl [1], and Daniel Woelfel, Sean Grove, and Jared Forsyth as members of some team that I do not recognize from the uniforms [2].
It looks like they also had lots of superhero stuff, such as models and sets that people could take photos with, and in general were going for a them that React developers are superheros right up their with groups like The Avengers. See various photos and tweets here [3].
[1] https://twitter.com/filipewl/status/923583201100083206
[2] https://twitter.com/ReactiveConf/status/888016901061922820
[3] https://twitter.com/reactiveconf/media
It seems that the organizers were well-intentioned, but lack experience.
https://medium.com/@jevakallio/why-i-will-not-be-speaking-at...