Ask HN: Should I move to Berlin?

I'd say go to Berlin. There is a security for you and yours in a country like Germany that no amount of money can buy in a place like Dubai.

I wish I could explain it better, but my family is a migrant family from the Caribbean to the USA and their move involved costs/benefits similar to yours, and that's my overall impression.

Your net salary would be about 2900 euro monthly. Then you'd need to pay for an appartment, it would be at least 400-500 euro. Then you have to eat and sometimes buy new clothes since it's a cold country :) This would cost you maybe another 500 euro. So you could save about 2000 euro each month.

I am living in Berlin. I would say with 5000 gross income you should be able to save ~1000-1500 Euro in a month. According to http://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/ you should get ~2917.05 Euro net.

I think with 60k income the taxes are 28%, but there's health insurance and social security insurance, too.

I heard that finding a flat is currently not easy in Berlin. Bergmannstrasse is a lovely "Kiez" (neighborhood).

The scene in Berlin for programmers is nice, lots of meetups (if you are interested in that).

>in a salary of 5000 Euros per month, how much could I save per month after my food and rent expenditures?

You'll have around 2900 after taxes, and you'll probably spend around 1500 for the normal cost of living (apartment, food, etc). However this varies a lot from person to person, for example sharing an apartment is way cheaper. Rent prices vary by location, and so on.

I'd suggest visiting Germany and seeing if it's something you'll like, the culture, the language, and so on.

German here, living abroad.

- 5k/month -> 60k/year sounds reasonable in general. You might be able to get more, but honestly I don't think that's a bad salary for programming position. Tax sounds about right.

- 24 days of leave seems on the low side of things. I'd expect 28-30 OR more pay. I had 30 in Germany.

- 1500 for the relocation seems low as well. What are you supposed to pay for with that? Flight is covered by the company? What about housing (usually you have 1-2 month of rent to deposit, that might eat a large chunk of this amount already)?

Can't comment on the neighborhood or the current cost of living situation in Berlin, but I feel that I'd stay in Dubai if I were in your shoes. You earn quite a lot of money for later - 12*4k + 5k means that you basically nearly save all the money Germany offers before taxes. You are happy at your company. You fly home for free - no idea how expensive flights between Dubai and Pakistan are, for me this is quite expensive (Singapore -> Germany).

Let me turn this question around: What is it that you _like_ about the offer? Just getting out of "Can never stay forever" Dubai/a different tech zone alone or is the job/location itself interesting?

I’ve lived in Dubai for a year as a white person. I hated it, people are very pretentious and pretty much only care about money, I guess that can be expected as that as mostly the reason people go there.. One thing I noticed a lot is the insane work hours Indians go through there, and down right racism, I know that the germans work hard too but quality of life has to be better in Germany.

Even considering all of this you are losing out on a lot of money moving to Berlin. I left Dubai to work remotely in CPH and love it so far

Berlin is way better than Dubai. Berlin has more atmosphere and is not that "american" like Dubai. Berlin has a big developer scene and millions of startups and meetups. But remember, weather is not that nice in Germany :D

Does Berlin give you permanent residency ?

The total tax burden for well-earned singles is rather roughly. 50%. After you can deduct some lump sums from your tax, we expect 40% for the tax. However, since you also have an employee's share of the health insurance, you should stay at 50% for the time being.

A small apartment, or a room is around 400 EUR warm if you have little claim to location and equipment. Find out more at immonet. de. The user interface is simple and even if you don't know German, you should be able to use it.

The cost of living for a geek who lives sparingly would be 400 EUR per month. Insurance and miscellaneous costs 150 EUR.

Leaves you with 5000 * 0,5 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 150 = 1550 EUR should be doable as a monthly saving. With a buffer, a monthly saving of 1400 EUR should be possible.

60000 EUR annual salary is ok for the beginning. If you perform well, you should earn a six-digit salary as a Senior Software Engineer, especially in Hamburg, Munich and Düsseldorf. To do this, however, you would have to set the right course at your first job in Germany and not start with less than 75,000.

You will have to pay up to 42% in taxes and security expenditures. You will not be able to save much in Germany as the state takes most of your money. Berlin is not as expensive as Paris or London but the rent costs went up in the past 7 years. The weather is also very shitty.

You will have to wait / work at least 7 years to get German citizenship.

I would aim to get into Switzerland with your skills / knowledge.

I live in Berlin. I would say, money is not why you would want to move to Germany. It's social & medical insurance/stability/security.

I've been to Dubai for vacation, and I found it pretty boring TBH. In Europe you'll have more opportunities to find something interesting, even if now you're a type of guy who would spend much of his time in front of the laptop. Maybe that's because there is just boring in Dubai?

tl;dr yes you absolutely should

Yes you should move to Berlin if you have the chance to get permanent residency or even the citizenship. If you live in Germany, you live in Europe and can relocate to another country within the EU easily. The German citizenship is THE most valuable in the world ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/lists/most-powerful-passpo... ). The German economy is one of the strongest in the world. You'll live in a free, welcoming and open democracy. I wouldn't care so much about the perks, but about the fact that you're in the EU, and specifically in Germany.

ps: If you got so far to get a job offer with relocation in Germany, you'll also easily find another job here. Maybe not in Berlin, but Munich for example has all the big names: Google, Microsoft, IBM, Autodesk, Salesforce, (the list goes on and is really long).

5000 € "brutto" per month is a good salary in eastern Germany. You will receive around 3300 € per month "netto". The difference pays for taxes, pension insurance, health care, unemployment insurance and nursing care insurance.

Rent is quite high at the moment in Berlin as well as in almost any larger city in Europe. It's unlikely that you will be able to find a flat for less than 500 € per month. Depending on your habits, you can get by comfortably with 500 € for food and beverages monthly. This will leave you with at least 2000 € per month for savings.

A 13th salary and 30 days of holidays are quite common in Germany, the latter being a requirement for me personally. Companys that only give you 24 days/year make a cheap impression on me - this is the bare minimum that is required by law but it is uncommon for larger companys.

Also note that you'll only be allowed to apply for permanent residency after 5 years of work.

My advice would be to keep looking. Not because the money isn't good enough, but because the company makes the impression of being cheap to its employees.

It's very hard to see a reason for you to move to Berlin. You will gain a net ("in hand") salary much lower than your actual salary because in Europe there's not only the taxes that are deducted from your salary, but also contributions for health assurance, for retirement and for social security (and sometimes many other "small" things). All these things can add up to ~50% of your salary. And see this: " People earning more than EUR 52,882 per year are subject to a tax rate of 42%." and "In addition to Lohnsteuer, you have to pay the so-called solidarity surcharge (5.5% of your income tax)".

from here: https://www.internations.org/germany-expats/guide/15984-soci...

If I were you, I wouldn't move.

I lived in Berlin for 9 months and it was an awesome place to be. I quite enjoyed the nightlife there too :)

For apartment, prepare to spend around €800 peek around here:

http://www.wg-gesucht.de/wg-zimmer-in-Berlin.8.0.1.0.html

Monthly expenses for food, drinks, socializing would be anywhere between €300 - €600

Try to calculate your net salary:

http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htmt

On 2900 net, I'm not sure if I moved there although I lived on significantly less money :)

If they pay 5000€ (brutto), you will likely have ~3.200€ (netto) left after tax and social security, retirement payments, and health insurance. Feel free to play around with http://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info which is of course not 100% accurate but pretty good for estimation.

That being said, 3.2k is a good salary in Germany, and housing in Berlin is not as expensive as in Hamburg or Munich, 1000€ will get you a spacious flat for 1 person, utilities included. Food is cheap in Germany, if you can cook a few hounded € per month are enough.

My guess would be that if you have a decent lifestyle, find a not too pricey flat, you can save between around 1000€ per month.

- after tax, social security and mandatory health insurance, you will keep around 50% of your gross income

- apartment will be around € 600-700 now (1-2 rooms in a "hip", central location like Kreuzberg, Friedrichshain, Neukölln)

- it's a quite multicultural city, with lot's interesting live styles and culture

- it's a democratic, stable country with a generally functioning law and state

- the weather is cold and rainy especially from November to May

- it's way up north, so less light in winter, more in summer

I would prefer Berlin to Dubai, but I am a Berliner, so ...

Two things to consider is that: if you're planning to move for to Germany long-term, you could aim for citizenship in a few years giving you easy EU access (+ many other countries). On the other hand, Germany is one of the annoying countries which don't do dual citizenships - you could be forced to drop the Pakistani one. (not the case for the UK, for example)

> - 24 holidays per year

This is the minimum you have to get for full-time employment in Germany. In many companies you can negotiate more. (worth noting for the future)

I don't know much about Dubai, but from what I understand you'd also have much more to do in Germany. Easier travel to interesting places as well, since you can't throw a rock around there without hitting something historic.

You might wanna remove the specific office address and just describe the area, to keep the offer private :)

I was exactly in the same situation 2 years back and instead of Dubai I was in Lahore, Pakistan. I got offer from Berlin and I was offered I believe 4500 Euros/month and I posted on Hacker News too look at that thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10602867 ( Ask HN: Full Stack developer offer from Berlin )

I didn't move to Berlin and my reasons were little different. If I were to suggest you I would say move to Berlin and the strongest point is you can get National there with in 3 to 4 years. second strong point is Berlin is turning into European Tech Hub exposure you can get while living Berlin you can't get in Dubai.

Go to Berlin ;)

As an American who moved to Prague, I'd say that those taxes pay for themselves in terms of quality of life and social insurance. Having so many beautiful parks and so much culture right in the city so few minutes away by tram is worth way more than owning a big house. I think of it like this: I can either live in America and have a big living room, or I can live in Europe and have an entire city as my living room.

You'd have to go to Berlin to see what I mean.

If you are not interested in drinking then opportunities for socializing in Berlin may be a bit limited. They are also very big on pork and ham. Germany is a very stable but also a very conservative country. While Berlin is the least conservative part, you will find that the upper echelons of society in terms of net worth tend to be exceptionally conservative. If you do not learn German, opportunities for economic and social advancement may be limited. If you like sun, you will find Germany depressing. In short, it will be hard to move there. If you want stability it is a good option, and besides Europe is simply beautiful. However, it will be hard work and a long term commitment. In your position, I would trade income for residency, stability and access to Europe. You can always move again after your goals are achieved.

Go to germany. Being able to get permanent residency and maybe even becoming a citizen at some point is worth it. You'd become a European on paper, which makes life much easier for you. Do note that you'll have to sit it out for a couple of years before it starts paying off.

As others have mentioned, you'll pay more taxes and you'll be left with less net income, but the amount of social security you get in return is totally worth it. Plus, there's more than enough tech companies in Berlin, so I am sure you can increase your salary over time.