No, but I can tell they're just rebranded Clevo builds.
These machines have very decent specs and are easy to service and upgrade, but at the cost a of very low quality build with regards to the laptop case itself.
There are plenty of other brands that offer the same kind of Clevo laptops with Linux, the best known of which is system76.
Basically, these are just the same Clevo machines you can buy with any Clevo reseller, but with Linux installed for marketing differentiation, and a significant mark up in pricing.
I hope the people from System76 or StationX will be able to show that their added value is a little more than installing some linux image... (I was considering buying one of those, but your statement makes me hesitate)
Sure, but implied in their Linux branding of the laptops is a promise of testing their configurations with Linux. So you are paying for a promise that the system will be compatible with Linux, I suppose.
If these things interest you, you should definitely take a look at other Clevo resellers in your country, and compare the pricing to help you decide whether the added value of this promise is worth the increased retail price.
That's interesting, I'd not seen this comment before.
So the good thing about System76 is that they can gather up the Linux users buying their products, and use the volume of those combined sales to give Linux users a voice with upstream manufacturers like Sager and Clevo.
* a guarantee, and support for running Linux
* UK-based customer support, rather than ROC/Taiwan-based
* maybe component selection that avoids certain hardware with bad drivers?
Sadly, no. I've tried to find out but couldn't find any clues.
As far as I can tell, they're using their own custom built casing. It definitely looks much better built than the Clevo machines, but I've not yet have been to get my hands on one and take a closer look.
As a system76 gazelle owner I agree with this. Nice display, great job on the drivers and system software, horrible build quality on the case, terrible keyboard, terrible fit around the trackpad, worst trackpad buttons I've ever seen. I've been developing on this for over a year and it's been ok, but the quality isn't anywhere near what you should be getting for the price point.
GPUs seem to be the only remaining issue with OEM Linux laptops. I was almost ready to buy a Purism Librem last year after the sad MBP announcements, but I got cold feet because of that. I wish someone had the money to pay one of these companies to polish linux drivers and ship some decent GPUs.
Well most Radeon cards work great with open source drivers, there is still the issue of closed source firmware however. But at least now the kernel drivers (kms, drm) are open source, the GL drivers (mesa) are open as well for Radeon. For some Radeon cards they perform better using the open source drivers than they do with the closed source ones.
On the "free and open" front, their "B-29 Superfortress" linux desktop only has options for Nvidia graphics cards. Would have been nice to see some AMD options in support for their open source work.
Having a big screen is so nice. The 17” MacBook Pro is the second best computer I ever had, after my current Thinkpad T530. If I had to buy a new computer today (hopefully not, as my Thinkpad is still going strong at five years old), I’d probably go for the P70.
I don’t mind having a big and heavy laptop though. I carry it in a backpack, and a few pounds more or less on my back is pretty insignificant.
Yeah having a 17" laptop is brilliant with the caveat that they're kind of terrible on planes. I'm using a 14" ThinkPad these days and miss the extra real estate, although I've adapted to it over time.
Good point. Now that you mention it, I do remember trying and giving up on using it on a plane. It’s not a big deal for me personally because I get motion sick on planes so I usually just take a couple of Dramamine and sleep through the whole flight.
A 17" laptop is great for working from the couch, and that's what I use it for. It's not so great as an actual portable computer, so I've coupled it with an 11" that I carry with me for meetings etc...
>I said it before and I will say it again: a 14" display in 4:3 aspect ratio is the best choice for a programmers laptop!
Interesting. How do you measure the aspect ratio? By actually measuring the height and width of the visible part of the display with a ruler or measuring tape, or via some software utility / command? I have a 14" display laptop, and would like to know the aspect ration, hence asking.
Price-wise they seem quite competitive on paper. I'm curious as to what the build quality & peripherals are like. In my experience the real difference between a regular and top-of-the-line laptop is in the small things.
They're also lacking a 4k laptop, which I would highly recommend to anyone used to working on the road. (or who has to show of work to clients in person).
Price-wise, I got a zenbook for 2/3 the price, with a 3200x1800 screen (instead of 1920x1080), a slower CPU, same RAM, larger SSD, most other details the same. It's a better fit for my needs, and runs Linux perfectly. I agree completely about the screen - a decent HiDPI screen is quite wonderful.
Also, I wouldn't want any of the distribution options they offer to pre-load. And I wouldn't want a pre-loaded OS anyway.
I'm not trying to discourage a worthy goal, but these are some of the issues that this company has to overcome.
Having done the "buy a Windows laptop and load linux on it" thing for many years and many generations, I think I'm done. I have now had a Dell preloaded with Ubuntu and a System76 and I don't think I'll ever go back. The Dell has special drivers tho for backlight and other things, so loading a different distro is a little more work than a System76 is.
Seriously I wonder why not this? I understand if you're looking for a portable workstation or something of that performance why not... but for an ultra-portable little dev machine. And it would be far cheaper, too, no?
(I've liked what System76 has done, but even then I probably wouldn't spring for the Galago as opposed cheaper Chromebook unless I were jumping up to one of their other workhorses)
Regarding "End next to up key", it's the same as on the Carbon X1 which to be honest, is kind of comfortable. I'm using the arrow keys to scroll on pages when reading, and when I want to skip, the keys for that is right next to it.
At pictures I see PgUp/PgDown keys next to up arrow. Dell has it the same way I think. It's a bit different to an End key, but even then, the biggest issue was that it's only the End there. No Home on the other side.
Product customization screen has multiple keyboard layouts; "USA English" is not the default, and probably not what's in the shots (though I'm not sure where you can see what it does look like)...
Also the slight irony of “We create drop-dead gorgeous machines - designed and customised to run Linux - and only Linux” next to a photo of a machine with a Windows key.
I think they mean "only designed and customized for Linux", not that it can't run other stuff. Essentially the same as 99% of laptops, except for Linux instead of Windows :)
Although as someone mentioned below, they are rebranded Clevo machines, and really were designed to run Windows first. Station X is just offering a guarantee that they will run Linux properly.
Agreed. I think it means, "We only test and install Linux, and don't bother with other distros. Also only pick hardware that has linux support without considering whether other OSes support that hardware"
Don't want to sound rude but: "created"? Or just resold whatever Compal/Clevo are building with hand picked some components like WiFi card that happen to have drivers in Linux kernel?
> "Or just resold whatever Compal/Clevo are building"
Indeed, the Windows logo on the Super key in all but the "Manjaro Special Edition" confirms that. At least System76 takes the time and effort to customize the keyboard.
I don't blame them for wanting to cater to the vastly underserved Linux enthusiast market, but they haven't impressed me.
You can customize the sticker on the super key during checkout, choosing from many distro logos or other Linux related logos. Windows is also an option.
It's cheap, it's sticker! How company can sell "laptops and all-in-one powerhouses meticulously crafted to run Linux." and put a sticker on one of the keys because they couldn't "meticulously" prepare keyboard designed for Linux users.
I had been planning to replace my faithful 5yr old Samsung Ultrabook with a Dell XPS. But I like the idea of buying from a UK supplier based in Bletchley Park and using a lot of WWII branding. I do need a win32 dev env, but I guess I could run Windows inside a VM.
Yeah tbh that's the only thing that puts me off a bit. War is war, I'd rather not glorify it; it might be a necessary evil on occasions, but I'd rather not be reminded of that every day. Then again, I'm not British.
Still, I would expect the subset of potential buyers for geeky machines not to massively overlap the nationalistic subset of the British population, so to me it looks like poor marketing overall.
Being British I love the branding, but I am something of a WWII obsessive. WWII, the Battle of Britain, "the few", fight them on the beaches etc is a huge part of national identity in the UK. But it seems to me that WWII flavoured branding could be a huge marketing mistake in the EU territories Station X is targeting: Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, and the Netherlands.
Well, Spitfire, I can understand. But Lancaster? Technically awesome as the Lancaster was, I wonder what kind of brand marketing genius wants to their product associated with the firebombing of civilians [1]. Or in the words of Churchill himself, "a serious blotch on the conduct of the Allies in the war".
[1] Not to disparage the dedication to duty, bravery, and sacrifice of the aircrews, roughly 50% of which never made it back. Competing with the German U-boat service for the service with the highest KIA rate, FWIW.
The only laptop I would consider upgrading to from my Thinkpad X220 would either be a modern Thinkpad x270 (just for a hardware upgrade because I like the form factor) or to something that provides a similar keyboard, docking, and modern-ish hardware.
Most of my work happens over SSH, my laptop is currently fast enough for Netflix, email, and web browsing. I'm capped at 2 1920x1080 monitors but this is livable.
I think if someone took the old X220 generation Thinkpads, upgraded the internals, and kept the keyboard and docking that they would sell like hotcakes.
I recently got an x62 and it's great, although you must put some effort into making linux work smoothly on it and making the screen brighter. But all in all I am extremely happy with it.
The reason these look similar to System76 is because they are the exact same Clevo chassis. The bezels are awful, but I give credit to System76 and Station X and any other that works to sell and maintain Linux machines.
My next Linux laptop may be from one of these companies if they can work with Clevo to stop making the screen bezels so horrendously large.
what i'd like is a portable "mainframe" you can remote into from older (or cheaper) machines, something you can still in a backpack along with a chromebook.
1. "Beautiful machines" is the first point being made. This is superficial.
2. "All distros welcome". Turns out that installing a distro is the least of my concerns when it comes to a laptop.
3. The first thing you notice is this video with the multiethnic group of people from which one of them is at the front as well as happier/dancing. This is inconsistent and weird. What is the message being communicated with this? How is it relevant? Sell me a goddamn laptop instead. Put a picture of a laptop or something.
In order to be constructive, what I would rather emphasize is: laptops are hardware. The intended audience here are tech enthusiasts. I would rather speak about hardware specs, or something distinctive about the hardware, compatibility, the ergonomics... post a benchmark. Something that is actually better than "beautiful laptops" and a awkward video. This is common sense.
This is how a system is sold: https://www.apple.com/imac-pro/ . Note: I do not own one and I am not affiliated with that company, just making a point.
Then... just a reminder: most laptops are potentially a Linux laptop.
> Turns out that installing a distro is the least of my concerns when it comes to a laptop.
Man, how times have changed. Linux working half-decently on a laptop used to be the holy grail of opensource fans. Nowadays, thanks to Ubuntu and friends, chances are that most of it will just work, regardless of hardware. This is a massive achievement and it's not really as promoted as it should be.
Well, true. It can be challenging to install some distros, especially if the default configuration doesn't give you a working network interface. And while it can be solved, it's by no means a desirable first Linux experience.
If any of you visit eastern europe or countries where pirating a copy of windows is common practice, you can get linux laptops everywhere, sometimes the same machine is discounted because it's a display unit with freeDOS (who'd buy a machine you can't test)
To some extent, yes. But the demo that I occupy (male, 30s, software developer, linux enthusiast, seeker of high quality hardware that is highly compatible with linux), is desperate and hungry for this.
If only they did plain arch linux (just hard drives partitioned sensibly and graphics drivers installed, maybe X installed) and a nice thin 15 inch version...
Actually, I'd rather like purchasing the notebook with an empty disk, then have the supplier maintain a page in the Arch wiki on what drivers I need etc. (These pages already exist for some models, but only as a community effort.)
When you say "just hard drives partitioned sensibly and graphics drivers installed, maybe X installed", I hear "probably wrong bootloader, probably wrong partition layout, probably wrong FS choice" and so on and so on ("wrong" in this particular case meaning "not what I prefer").
After all, Arch is a distribution for tinkerers who want their system their way.
Exactly. I've been using a Thinkpad for my Arch build for years and it's stellar. Does IBM need to shit on Apple like that too? Or are these guys straight out of high school?
That's what stood out for me about all the StationX except for the Spitfire: they have nVidia GPUs. Having dicked around with nouveau and nvidia/dkms with various nVidia chips I will never buy anything with closed-source/binary-blob. It's just not worth my time.
You don't get a line of laptops off the ground overnight. AMD/ATI linux drivers not sucking is a fairly recent development. If were making this decision ~5 years ago, Nvidia would be a reasonable choice.
I spent about $1000 on a Sager 6 years ago, and was very happy with it (including the Nvidia hardware; it was tough to get running in Optimus mode, but works well now).
Last year it had a spate of corrupted video output, with red static all over the screen. Went on for about a week, and I bought a new laptop...then the problems with the Sager disappeared. All well. I think it's still the most maintainable laptop that I own.
Riiiight... who knew that Clevo and Sager relied on System 76 to design and develop their systems (/s). It's a good story, but I don't believe it for a minute.
They're saying that System76 works with Clevo and Sager. As in they give them specs and Clevo/Sager get back to them with prototypes. System76 develops firmware for the prototypes across several internal iterations and with some back and forth between them and the manufacturer.
This is a process that would take years, and depending on the contract it is very likely that Clevo/Sager would have all liberty to sell the chassis they developed from the specs System76 gave them.
My first "industry" job back in 1996 was working for Eurocom Laptops in Ottawa, Canada. I think they're still around..
They were/are a Clevo reseller (back then the company was called Kapok), and our leadership and hardware team went to Taiwan for quarterly meetings - along with other territory partners - to have round-table discussions to help the factory decide what to put in upcoming models, and so on..
So I would believe that this is in fact still the process that happens to this day..
The factory (Clevo) focused on sourcing parts and assembling the units, but even back then they leaned pretty heavily on their retail/B2B partners to help them figure out what machines they should be building.
If System76 is moving enough units for them, you can bet they are asking them for input and guidance on what to put in their machines.
So am I right in thinking that System76 are working on firmware and drivers for clevo/sager laptops, but then not committing them upstream? Or are they simply not open sourcing them at all?
Chassis are definitely similar, but specs do not line up at all. Screen is full HD for these versus 3200x1800 for System76 for example. System76 seems to be cheaper too.
While I think the unbridled hyperbole on the StationX website is absurd, I will say that when it comes to Linux laptops, having all the components work correctly with Linux (and it be stable!) is probably the hard thing to make.
I don't know if these guys do that part well, but if they actually make it work flawlessly (and if their competitors don't do as well), then the cost difference might be worth it.
Frankly, I haven't found any new laptop of any OS to work great all the time. It's like we've moved back in time about 15 years. Everything sucks in some way.
My previous laptop was a custom build, but last time I just did some searches, confirmed that a HP Pavillion works fine (at least this model does) with Ubuntu, and went to my local PC store and picked one up.
It's not like I can just pick up any random model and expect it to work, but the process is a lot better than it used to be.
>I will say that when it comes to Linux laptops, having all the components work correctly with Linux (and it be stable!) is probably the hard thing to make.
Not really that hard in 2017, just go all Intel (CPU/GPU/WiFi/etc), and you're pretty much set.
I've got an HP that works more reliably and completely under Linux than under Windows 7 (granted, it was shipped with Windows 10). It was a pain to get the proper versions of Intel drivers and Mesa working together for optimal GPU capabilities, though.
The touchpad is stupidly large, and I suppose it took some tweaking to get that working comfortably, too.
175 comments
[ 6.5 ms ] story [ 2526 ms ] threadThere is a video review from Quidsup up on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhpPsktOZFw
These machines have very decent specs and are easy to service and upgrade, but at the cost a of very low quality build with regards to the laptop case itself.
There are plenty of other brands that offer the same kind of Clevo laptops with Linux, the best known of which is system76.
Basically, these are just the same Clevo machines you can buy with any Clevo reseller, but with Linux installed for marketing differentiation, and a significant mark up in pricing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clevo
I hope the people from System76 or StationX will be able to show that their added value is a little more than installing some linux image... (I was considering buying one of those, but your statement makes me hesitate)
If these things interest you, you should definitely take a look at other Clevo resellers in your country, and compare the pricing to help you decide whether the added value of this promise is worth the increased retail price.
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/5umefi/system76_refr...
So the good thing about System76 is that they can gather up the Linux users buying their products, and use the volume of those combined sales to give Linux users a voice with upstream manufacturers like Sager and Clevo.
* a guarantee, and support for running Linux * UK-based customer support, rather than ROC/Taiwan-based * maybe component selection that avoids certain hardware with bad drivers?
As far as I can tell, they're using their own custom built casing. It definitely looks much better built than the Clevo machines, but I've not yet have been to get my hands on one and take a closer look.
Does that mean they have a disabled/cleaned ME like the purism machines? Or what does "free and open" mean in this case?
I got the 17" Kudu for work. Honestly, I'm now aware that a 17" screen on a laptop is just too impractically big, but the hardware has been great.
I don’t mind having a big and heavy laptop though. I carry it in a backpack, and a few pounds more or less on my back is pretty insignificant.
It's tall enough so that you can see a lot of text but narrow enough that the laptop does not get too bulky.
If there will ever be a new 14" machine with a 1400*1050 display I will be first in line to buy it!
Interesting. How do you measure the aspect ratio? By actually measuring the height and width of the visible part of the display with a ruler or measuring tape, or via some software utility / command? I have a 14" display laptop, and would like to know the aspect ration, hence asking.
[1]: https://m.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1400%3A1050
They're also lacking a 4k laptop, which I would highly recommend to anyone used to working on the road. (or who has to show of work to clients in person).
Also, I wouldn't want any of the distribution options they offer to pre-load. And I wouldn't want a pre-loaded OS anyway.
I'm not trying to discourage a worthy goal, but these are some of the issues that this company has to overcome.
I found this post from System76 to be really interesting: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/5umefi/system76_refr...
(I've liked what System76 has done, but even then I probably wouldn't spring for the Galago as opposed cheaper Chromebook unless I were jumping up to one of their other workhorses)
Another issue I have is with the spacing between F keys. Looks like an afterthought to Fn+? keys.
Not to mention there is not a single clear picture of the keyboard on the product page...
https://stationx.rocks/products/manjaro-special-edition-spit...
Only linux? Seems like a weird limitation... or am I understanding this wrong?
Ooohh...bingo :)
Indeed, the Windows logo on the Super key in all but the "Manjaro Special Edition" confirms that. At least System76 takes the time and effort to customize the keyboard.
I don't blame them for wanting to cater to the vastly underserved Linux enthusiast market, but they haven't impressed me.
> designed and customised to run Linux - and only Linux.
But super key still have Windows logo.
> No Windows or Mac here, folks
So they are lying on their main page. Great!
I was just pointing out that you're not really tied to Windows.
Because, screw bsd users.
Then there's the model that's branded "for manjaro", a distribution that almost nobody cares about and that every arch user will sneer at.
They could get a clue. At least try to understand the target market.
Might be worth fixing your typo :-)
Yeah tbh that's the only thing that puts me off a bit. War is war, I'd rather not glorify it; it might be a necessary evil on occasions, but I'd rather not be reminded of that every day. Then again, I'm not British.
Still, I would expect the subset of potential buyers for geeky machines not to massively overlap the nationalistic subset of the British population, so to me it looks like poor marketing overall.
[1] Not to disparage the dedication to duty, bravery, and sacrifice of the aircrews, roughly 50% of which never made it back. Competing with the German U-boat service for the service with the highest KIA rate, FWIW.
Most of my work happens over SSH, my laptop is currently fast enough for Netflix, email, and web browsing. I'm capped at 2 1920x1080 monitors but this is livable.
I think if someone took the old X220 generation Thinkpads, upgraded the internals, and kept the keyboard and docking that they would sell like hotcakes.
I recently got an x62 and it's great, although you must put some effort into making linux work smoothly on it and making the screen brighter. But all in all I am extremely happy with it.
My next Linux laptop may be from one of these companies if they can work with Clevo to stop making the screen bezels so horrendously large.
1. "Beautiful machines" is the first point being made. This is superficial.
2. "All distros welcome". Turns out that installing a distro is the least of my concerns when it comes to a laptop.
3. The first thing you notice is this video with the multiethnic group of people from which one of them is at the front as well as happier/dancing. This is inconsistent and weird. What is the message being communicated with this? How is it relevant? Sell me a goddamn laptop instead. Put a picture of a laptop or something.
In order to be constructive, what I would rather emphasize is: laptops are hardware. The intended audience here are tech enthusiasts. I would rather speak about hardware specs, or something distinctive about the hardware, compatibility, the ergonomics... post a benchmark. Something that is actually better than "beautiful laptops" and a awkward video. This is common sense.
This is how a system is sold: https://www.apple.com/imac-pro/ . Note: I do not own one and I am not affiliated with that company, just making a point.
Then... just a reminder: most laptops are potentially a Linux laptop.
Man, how times have changed. Linux working half-decently on a laptop used to be the holy grail of opensource fans. Nowadays, thanks to Ubuntu and friends, chances are that most of it will just work, regardless of hardware. This is a massive achievement and it's not really as promoted as it should be.
So no BSD then?
Check the right side of this laptop: https://stationx.rocks/products/spitfire
and compare with Galago pro: https://system76.com/laptops/galago
sides: https://screenshots.firefox.com/0I2YsDmIvbKuYbr3/stationx.ro... and https://d1vhcvzji58n1j.cloudfront.net/assets/products/galp3/...
and I've seen this model at least on two other resellers.
If only they did plain arch linux (just hard drives partitioned sensibly and graphics drivers installed, maybe X installed) and a nice thin 15 inch version...
When you say "just hard drives partitioned sensibly and graphics drivers installed, maybe X installed", I hear "probably wrong bootloader, probably wrong partition layout, probably wrong FS choice" and so on and so on ("wrong" in this particular case meaning "not what I prefer").
After all, Arch is a distribution for tinkerers who want their system their way.
* Except for the Nvidia hardware, which never really worked right. I'm using unaccelerated (?) Nouveau drivers as the least bad option.
>with nvidia graphics
Wow. What were they thinking? I'll have to assume every other decision they made is about as moronic.
Last year it had a spate of corrupted video output, with red static all over the screen. Went on for about a week, and I bought a new laptop...then the problems with the Sager disappeared. All well. I think it's still the most maintainable laptop that I own.
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/5umefi/system76_refr...
They're saying that System76 works with Clevo and Sager. As in they give them specs and Clevo/Sager get back to them with prototypes. System76 develops firmware for the prototypes across several internal iterations and with some back and forth between them and the manufacturer.
This is a process that would take years, and depending on the contract it is very likely that Clevo/Sager would have all liberty to sell the chassis they developed from the specs System76 gave them.
They were/are a Clevo reseller (back then the company was called Kapok), and our leadership and hardware team went to Taiwan for quarterly meetings - along with other territory partners - to have round-table discussions to help the factory decide what to put in upcoming models, and so on..
So I would believe that this is in fact still the process that happens to this day..
The factory (Clevo) focused on sourcing parts and assembling the units, but even back then they leaned pretty heavily on their retail/B2B partners to help them figure out what machines they should be building.
If System76 is moving enough units for them, you can bet they are asking them for input and guidance on what to put in their machines.
So right now I'm leaning towards reseller and this is a bunch of bull.
https://pastebin.com/raw/2XBD1E9K
So you use coreboot. Right? Because if you don't, where is this firmware development going on?
I don't know if these guys do that part well, but if they actually make it work flawlessly (and if their competitors don't do as well), then the cost difference might be worth it.
Frankly, I haven't found any new laptop of any OS to work great all the time. It's like we've moved back in time about 15 years. Everything sucks in some way.
It's not like I can just pick up any random model and expect it to work, but the process is a lot better than it used to be.
Not really that hard in 2017, just go all Intel (CPU/GPU/WiFi/etc), and you're pretty much set.
The touchpad is stupidly large, and I suppose it took some tweaking to get that working comfortably, too.
All I want from my next laptop is to be powered via USB-C. I'm sick of dragging around multiple different chargers for my gadgets.