Yep. If this guy really believed in a powerful conspiracy to convince everyone the Earth is round, it would be very strange to publicise his plan to expose it. It's weird how many commentators are taken in by an obvious publicity stunt.
He tried kickstarter, reached $310, and then turned to the flat-earthers. Their GoFundMe uses the terms "awareness" and "sponsorship". His stated goals (headlining the kickstarter) are to become famous, and set a world record, and the GoFundMe makes no claims other than what size their logo will be.
The last paragraph of the GoFundMe promises the story is going to be run by the AP. For the flat-earthers, this is the actual goal of the rocket - to get the story into the press. And it worked. $8k bought them nationwide coverage.
Very true, but one also needs to be illiterate to believe such things. And in western countries where people get to go to school (most of them at least), it seems absurd.
So, the only thing left to assume is that they make things for popularity and/or funding.
If someone believes that the earth is flat then he automatically believes that all the pilots in the world know it (and never speak about it). That is illiteracy to say the least.
You certainly don't believe everything you read, but well established knowledge from centuries ago isn't something some lunatic came up with.
So if someone dismisses gravity as a hoax, are we to support him because he is a critical thinker and start jumping off cliffs trying to fly?
It would be easier and safer if he just sent an air balloon strapped with a Go Pro up. He would get the footage he needs to prove his bogus claims are wrong and he would be safe on the ground.
You are right though, we need to understand how so many people still believe that the Earth is flat.
I get the impression from reading the article that this guy doesn't himself believe in the flat earth theory but is using his "recent conversion" (which occurred long after he started his rocket experiments) to try to get funding from conspiracy theorists after his kickstarter failed.
People have done this of course, but you cannot convince a flat earther with GoPro footage because of the fisheye lens that will allow you to film the horizon curve either way, depending on the angle.
What you'd need is a wide angle rectilinear lens not normally found on light weight cameras.
He shouldn't expect much from 1800 feet tough in terms of seeing the curvature. It won't be pronounced. I think he just wants to fly.
"We should all be asking ourselves where such big distrust is coming from."
Well, I would say it starts with basic things early, like Santa Claus brings the presents. Later you find out, oh a lie.
And so on with many things. Church, all loving god, nice and caring government, war only for peace, health corporation's only make good medicine, etc. etc.
And then things like Kennedy and 9/11. I don't know what happened and I also don't care so much, but the more I looked into it, the less convincing became the mainstream truth.
Or less controversial lies, like weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and so on.
No wonder people then start to believe in more goofy things like the moon landing hoax, or climategate - or ultimately, flat earth.
They have just been lied too often by their authorities. And then make the stupid assumption, everything opposite must be true then.
I wouldn't call this distrust but an extreme level of skepticism. I think being Skpetic means you're not supposed to believe anything just like that and always be willing to see the other side of the story in fact believing the there is another side to this story.
But like every philosophical and religious institutions getting extreme believers and followers, Science Skeptics have also reached that point.
This is very much like an Atheist seeing Atheism as a religion itself. Being Skeptic also means you gotta be ready to fix your belief when you get an alternative that could seems rational or right, if you are not ready to do that, you are not a skeptic
It seems more like Highly Selective Skepticism at best to me. Straight naïve skepticism in the "question everything" sense tends to converge around scientific consensus unless you start from several wildly different and confident priors; however, the Flat Earth rhetoric seems to be quite satisfied with handwavy phyiscs when it comes to the sanctified Flat Earth Dogma.
Personally, I like reading FE stuff if only because it gets me thinking about "how do I know what I actually know". I like trying to think up simple experiments that test my underlying trust in standard scientific explanations. Like, if I deeply mistrust data that's not my own, how could I convince myself that space has no atmosphere to speak of?
There is certainly scepticism, but there is also a huge amount of distrust. A large amount of flat Earth theory revolves (hah) around conspiracy theories. The two are probably intertwined though. Flat Earth theory doesn't work unless you assume that everyone (except you) is in on it - the government is in on it, airlines and shipping companies are in on it, the people who make the jets are in on it, NASA (et al) has been conning us for decades, the 'scientists' have been publishing false information for centures, and on and on.
> We should all be asking ourselves where such big distrust is coming from.
Seems to be pretty unique to America - climate change deniers, flat earthers, anti-vaxers, etc are no where near as prevalent in any other first world country.
I really think that even in "third world" countries people know that vaccines save lives, because they are (our have been) struck by diseases.
They're the ones suffering the effects of climate change.
Living in Brazil, a "third world" country, I have a feeling that people can't be bothered to feed this bullshit theory about flat-earth, because it just doesn't make any sense.
A basic education (assuming grade school level) would only inform you that the world isn't flat. It wouldn't go so far as to rigorously prove the idea. In fact, I honestly couldn't prove to you that the world isn't flat myself off-hand. My "knowledge" of the unflat world is really just trust in prior mathematicians and scientists who I believe have proven the idea.
I think this continuum between knowledge and belief is where these crackpot ideas are coming from. The average person doesn't know how the things they depend on actually work on a deeper level (e.g. the internet, cars, indoor plumbing, seasonal weather, the stock market). And upon researching the inner workings of these day-to-day mysteries, people realize that the mechanisms aren't 100% clear or they don't fully understand them. I'd wager this is the diverging point: most people give up on learning the mechanisms and accept that they work on belief while a small portion of people come up with alternative hypotheses and/or reject the mechanisms.
Eratosthenes proved the earth was round, trivially and in a straightforward manner, thousands of years ago[0].
Persistence in the belief in a flat earth can't be a matter of simple ignorance and lack of faith in the status quo. Understanding the rules of basic arithmetic is more difficult than understanding why the earth is round.
How does such a belief stand up to something as simple as talking to someone on the other side of the world, where it is night during the day for you? Even if one believed that people lived on two sides of a flat earth, surely flying between two such places would be sufficient to convince anyone that the earth is not flat?
Oh boy..you clearly haven't investigated flat earth properly yet. Arguments like that don't stand up in their universe. They simply create light that only travels as far as needed, to fit their model, and other curious contraptions.
Consider yourself lucky though, because you will grow gray hair quickly when venturing down into that labyrinth.
About flat-Earth theory some arguments may seem valid but how wouldn’t it be easier by starting off explaining how something, now, everyday like GPS or satelites would work if the Earth was flat?
It's not about believing everything or nothing, I think: it is more about how to filter things you believe. Believing something is a way to be part of a group, and it seems to me that most humans (including me) tend to feel better when they are recognized as a part of a group. Conspiration theories offer an easy way to feel part of a very well identified group (made even stronger by the sensation of being a somewhat repressed minority): for some people this can be much more rewarding than accepting the rigor of actual science.
That's the great thing about these fringe groups: any outcome of this project will continue to serve there 'beliefs'. Most likely the rocket might not even get off the ground, or may explode in mid-air, or injure the pilot gravely in a rough landing. In all cases they can blame the 'elite' and 'freemasons' for colluding and hindering/sabotaging their efforts to discover the 'truth'.
I have to admit I do admire his 'brass balls' if he does go through with this.
It's about (pseudo-)science and rockets... I guess it is a good fit for HN, otherwise it would not have been voted onto the front page three times in two days. On the other hand, the people upvoting it are apparently not the ones who pay attention to what was recently on the front page?
Let us not forget: There are plenty of people out there for whom the Earth is, yeah, okay, round, not really because of some deeply held conviction or as a result of some deep cogitation on the subject, but simply because they have been told. And if someone one day tells them something else in a reasonably persuasive tone of voice, well, then perhaps that is the way it is.
Not a few of those people, assuming they hear this story, will come away from it with a vague idea that those space and rocket guys aren't really all much that in agreement about the round-or-flat thing.
Being wrong is in itself not a big problem. Believing what you're told about something that's not going to affect you anyway, is no big deal.
The problem with flat earthers is that they put a lot of effort in being wrong, and try to convince others to be wrong, and that the people who are right are all liars conspiring against them. It would be nice if they put that time and energy into something more productive.
I am French and I haven't heard of flat earther until recently.I don't think anybody in Europe believe such things. That's just too weird. I wonder if there's really a significant amount of people who believe it or of it just some kind of buzz word..
"Hughes only recently converted to flat-Eartherism, after struggling for months to raise funds for his follow-up flight over the Mojave."
What a coincidence.
I do wonder if he manages to fly high enough to see for himself that the earth is not flat, whether any other people that supported him would believe him or would they just dismiss it as another conspiracy theory.
If he's in it for the money though, he'll probably say something along the lines of the flight being inconclusive at best.
Here's a thought I had for quite a while now: Find the most notorious flat earther who also happens to have a very strong reputation in the flat earther community. Launch a Kickstarter to collect enough money to send him to space (like all those billionaires do).
I'd hate to make a moron such an awesome present, but it could convert a lot of other morons.
I think you may be underestimating the sheer tenacity of these beliefs. I mean, what makes you think that super flat earther wasn't an Illuminati stooge all along?
BTW if you do decide to do this, I happen to be a very strong believer that the earth is flat, there's no such thing as space etc etc. In case you struggle for a candidate...
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 116 ms ] threadHe tried kickstarter, reached $310, and then turned to the flat-earthers. Their GoFundMe uses the terms "awareness" and "sponsorship". His stated goals (headlining the kickstarter) are to become famous, and set a world record, and the GoFundMe makes no claims other than what size their logo will be.
The last paragraph of the GoFundMe promises the story is going to be run by the AP. For the flat-earthers, this is the actual goal of the rocket - to get the story into the press. And it worked. $8k bought them nationwide coverage.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1441636269/mission-rock...
https://www.gofundme.com/flat-earth-community-rocket-launch
One would assume that some basic education is enough to debunk such crackpot ideas yourself.
On the other hand, saying the Earth is flat and scientists, media, school books, etc have been lying to me is a testimony to big distrust in society.
We should all be asking ourselves where such big distrust is coming from.
So, the only thing left to assume is that they make things for popularity and/or funding.
Certainly not. You just have to not believe what you read.
You certainly don't believe everything you read, but well established knowledge from centuries ago isn't something some lunatic came up with.
So if someone dismisses gravity as a hoax, are we to support him because he is a critical thinker and start jumping off cliffs trying to fly?
When schools make a duty of learning by rote instead of learning to learn and exercise thoughtful criticism, only distrust can emerge.
You are right though, we need to understand how so many people still believe that the Earth is flat.
What you'd need is a wide angle rectilinear lens not normally found on light weight cameras.
He shouldn't expect much from 1800 feet tough in terms of seeing the curvature. It won't be pronounced. I think he just wants to fly.
I agree that he's making claims in bad faith and just wants to fly.
He isn't trying to prove the earth is flat. He just wants to ride a rocket. Everything else is oddball marketing to get some funds.
Well, I would say it starts with basic things early, like Santa Claus brings the presents. Later you find out, oh a lie.
And so on with many things. Church, all loving god, nice and caring government, war only for peace, health corporation's only make good medicine, etc. etc.
And then things like Kennedy and 9/11. I don't know what happened and I also don't care so much, but the more I looked into it, the less convincing became the mainstream truth.
Or less controversial lies, like weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and so on.
No wonder people then start to believe in more goofy things like the moon landing hoax, or climategate - or ultimately, flat earth.
They have just been lied too often by their authorities. And then make the stupid assumption, everything opposite must be true then.
Unfortunately, this explanation seems all too plausible to me.
But like every philosophical and religious institutions getting extreme believers and followers, Science Skeptics have also reached that point.
This is very much like an Atheist seeing Atheism as a religion itself. Being Skeptic also means you gotta be ready to fix your belief when you get an alternative that could seems rational or right, if you are not ready to do that, you are not a skeptic
Personally, I like reading FE stuff if only because it gets me thinking about "how do I know what I actually know". I like trying to think up simple experiments that test my underlying trust in standard scientific explanations. Like, if I deeply mistrust data that's not my own, how could I convince myself that space has no atmosphere to speak of?
Seems to be pretty unique to America - climate change deniers, flat earthers, anti-vaxers, etc are no where near as prevalent in any other first world country.
They're the ones suffering the effects of climate change.
Living in Brazil, a "third world" country, I have a feeling that people can't be bothered to feed this bullshit theory about flat-earth, because it just doesn't make any sense.
I think this continuum between knowledge and belief is where these crackpot ideas are coming from. The average person doesn't know how the things they depend on actually work on a deeper level (e.g. the internet, cars, indoor plumbing, seasonal weather, the stock market). And upon researching the inner workings of these day-to-day mysteries, people realize that the mechanisms aren't 100% clear or they don't fully understand them. I'd wager this is the diverging point: most people give up on learning the mechanisms and accept that they work on belief while a small portion of people come up with alternative hypotheses and/or reject the mechanisms.
A recent episode of This American Life discusses this (https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/630/...).
Persistence in the belief in a flat earth can't be a matter of simple ignorance and lack of faith in the status quo. Understanding the rules of basic arithmetic is more difficult than understanding why the earth is round.
[0]http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/09/21/who-disco...
Consider yourself lucky though, because you will grow gray hair quickly when venturing down into that labyrinth.
About flat-Earth theory some arguments may seem valid but how wouldn’t it be easier by starting off explaining how something, now, everyday like GPS or satelites would work if the Earth was flat?
This is is social issue: there are people that just don't believe anything anymore.
Which ones?
Also how about watching a ship come over the horizon?
I have to admit I do admire his 'brass balls' if he does go through with this.
Previous discussion from today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15760481
They are all based on slightly different articles, but they don't seem to be adding much to each other.
See => https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Earth%20flat%20rocket&sort=byP...
Why does this even belong on HN? Why are people obsessed with this onion-esque gimmick?
Downside: only retains that knowledge rather briefly before himself becoming flat.
Slightly concerned about the engineering approach
https://youtu.be/dEkOT3IngMQ?t=28s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jU_forLM_s
Not a few of those people, assuming they hear this story, will come away from it with a vague idea that those space and rocket guys aren't really all much that in agreement about the round-or-flat thing.
[Edit: missing word]
The problem with flat earthers is that they put a lot of effort in being wrong, and try to convince others to be wrong, and that the people who are right are all liars conspiring against them. It would be nice if they put that time and energy into something more productive.
What a coincidence.
I do wonder if he manages to fly high enough to see for himself that the earth is not flat, whether any other people that supported him would believe him or would they just dismiss it as another conspiracy theory.
If he's in it for the money though, he'll probably say something along the lines of the flight being inconclusive at best.
I'd hate to make a moron such an awesome present, but it could convert a lot of other morons.
I think you may be underestimating the sheer tenacity of these beliefs. I mean, what makes you think that super flat earther wasn't an Illuminati stooge all along?
BTW if you do decide to do this, I happen to be a very strong believer that the earth is flat, there's no such thing as space etc etc. In case you struggle for a candidate...
Why not just hike up a mountain? In New Zealand or Hawaii it should be possible to go from sea-level to above 3000m in one push.
Or take a balloon?