Has any company in history taken "inspiration" from it's competitors name and then supplanted them? "YouNow" just sounds like a typical YouTube-Without-The-Google type of app.
This is really just the same as saying they raised money to pay creators, but that wouldn't sound so innovative. One way or the other, it's people investing in this startup (or currency if that's what you want to call it) that pay the content creators.
What I wonder what will happen as more content creators join the pool, thus diluting the value of a "prop". Is the idea that this will also draw more consumers, thus balancing out the value of the prop ? How is the total market cap determined ? How will it grow ?
The source of the currency is not the issue, it's the longevity/stability of it as a medium of exchange. This startup has very little power (compared to the government) to ensure that the currency will continue to hold value to someone you want to trade with. If faith plummets, they can only guarantee as many assets as they hold themselves.
General acceptance is inherent to the definition of currency. Unless we're going to move back to a pure barter system, all forms of currency are created out of "thin air" as the very definition of value is wholly dependent on perception. The more universally shared the perception of value is, the stronger the currency.
Right, the source isn't important. What matters is whether what you've received is, for practical purposes, actually currency.
If your boss showed up and said "from today we're going to pay you in bananas, and our exchange rate is $1000 per banana. By the way here's a raise too" and drops a bundle of bananas on your desk... Would you consider yourself paid?
Bananas aren't even fiat! You gotta grow them first
This is a silly example, since in the article there's clearly consent on both sides of the equation. But if the coins remain as "e-points" in their system and there's not much incentive on the buy side, they're not super useful as currency.
In practice the crypto currency markets seem to fuel a good amount of liquidity. This is a pretty neat side effect of the block chain boom.
> This implies that your boss is ready to trade both ways.
Again, this is the definition of currency. The root comes from Latin and means to "flow" or "run." It's this condition of "flowing" that defines currency. As I said before, this shared perspective of how well a currency "flows" is what defines it's value. Fiat or otherwise doesn't matter. In the strawman presented here, you (and maybe the rest of the company) accept and will participate in the exchange rate, so bananas have become a slightly stronger currency. For most of the world, it's still pretty terrible, but they are marginally better because at least some people accept it as currency.
Unless we plan to go back to bartering, this same logic applies for all forms of currency. There's nothing special about gold, bitcoins, rectangular plastic cards, or green sheets of paper with dead people's faces printed on them. What gives these things value is simply society's willingness to use these as a means of conducting transactions.
I would _mostly_ agree, but gold is actually a bad example as it has quite a bit on intrinsic value due to it's interesting metallurgical and electrical properties.
they added an asset to the market that has no intrinsic value other than to help the company that created it and to fuel the market making bots that run rampant on exchanges. There is some social utility to this
Is it a pyramid though? The money doesn't all flow to one place. Content creators 'earn' Props and can convert to traditional currency. The platform loses traditional currency in this case.
They don't generate dollars from scratch. If content creators are converting to dollars they need to pay out, those dollars need to come from somewhere.
Yeah, I was going to say: this sounds like a bond issuance lol. How boring is that!
That said, how cool would it be for companies that make products to issue you a portion of the company with every purchase, so that you could actually support them and be supported by them?
Coops pay out a patronage dividend to members. Coop accounting is a wierd and special beast, and I won't claim any expertise. Typically a member pays something to belong, that is how ag coops raise some of their capital, for instance.
In the REI case, the dividend amounts to a discount on purchases for members. Others pay the full freight. Same goes for ag coops, but the stakes are much larger and the accounting more complicated.
There is no reason other businesses can't be structured as coops, but trying to find someone who understands the structure probably requires visiting a land grant university in fly-over land and looking up the business school.
typically there is no dilution, which is what makes this asset class so attractive, but it depends on the individual token's mechanics.
although there are some investors, which primarily help for funding and price discovery, only a small portion of the float is distributed to them. the other portion of the float is doled out to contributors, which would be the video creators in this case.
a way to avoid dilution of the pool would be to price the rewards in USD and give the associated amount of currency
they have to create a demand model to support this, many cryptocurrencies have no demand model whatsoever and just think they can reward people in it
I have been burned too much in trying to get into ALTs because Bitcoin is still rocketing. As long as bitcoin is rocketing, you lose money by trading BTC in for anything else.
YouNow is actually a live-streaming service so I wouldn't call it a direct competitor to YouTube. It's more like a competitor to Livestream.com or Justin.tv (previously)
Everything that originates out of steem seems to be a lame attempt at making money and then pyramid scheming that through the rest of the steem community.
I'm not sure if props is any different yet TBH. Give us money for tokens we promise you will give you access to content you want at a later date? Depending on how much of that money goes towards content creation or attracting content creators really determines if this is some sort of pump and dump or something more complex.
See also LBRY (https://lbry.io), which is basically blockchain-powered video hosting (though technically it can host other types of files too) with cryptocurrency functionality. It is to YouTube as Steemit (https://steemit.com) is to WordPress.
> YouNow’s ICO is hardly huge by current standards; the largest sales have brought in upwards of $200 million. But it’s notable for other reasons. YouNow is already a profitable company with 40 employees, name-brand investors and 40 million registered users, a rarity in a world dominated by brand-new projects. People who work with cryptocurrencies say they’re fielding an increasing number of calls from established companies and predict that’s where the next wave of notable cryptocurrency projects will come from. The Props project is an early illustration of what that process could look like.
How are they profitable? What's their revenue stream? Selling coins to speculators? How on Earth does that definition of 'profitability' currently justify the value of the coins? "This is not like those other ICOs, because we made 200 million dollars selling coins!" is a huge stretch of reasoning for "So you should buy coins!"
I'm not saying the business sucks, or is a fraud, but that is an incredibly sketchy line of reasoning. I expect better from Bloomberg.
Okay, that's a bit more reasonable. Even then, though, the token is not a share in the company. I suppose it is a signal that the company is not some fly-by-night operation.
The tone taken by the financial press towards cryptocurrencies is interesting. They give plenty of press to the sceptics, the warnings from central bankers, etc. But they also give plenty of positive press, arguably undeserved when compared to the size of similar ventures funded by traditional means.
It's almost as though they're writing about it solely because they feel that they should, to avoid the risk of being seen to be taking a stand. As a result coverage of ICOs gets softer coverage than it otherwise would.
What people just don't seem to understand is that a cryptocurrency has to be tightly intertwined with the service it offers in a completely trustless manner. Merely having a company which has the same name as a cryptocurrency or made by the same people just doesn't cut the mustard. The service and the currency need to be logically and inseparably intertwined.
This is a pretty good idea. Google has been aggressively anti-competitive in the video space and the US government has made it abundantly clear that they don't care. Losing hundreds of millions a year for a decade just so no competitor could ever even hope to begin building infrastructure for a competitor has been very effective at shutting out all competitors. When traditional means are cut off through bad faith dealing like that, people have to get creative. And after reading 'The New Digital Age' where Schmidt makes his case for Google taking control of all of human culture with no more justification than 'we are rich, therefore better', I more than welcome anyone who stands even a faint chance of taking them down a thousand notches or so.
I don't think loss leader is the correct term either.
YouTube doesn't make money, nor intends to make money in the near future[1]. The key here is to get entrenched in the market, then assert their monopoly.
On surface this might seem okay, but it definitely is anti-competitive. We've just gotten used to it. Dumping isn't the proper term, but was the closest I could find. It comes under predatory pricing, but the problem is, this business practice is so different from what the current literature consists of, I don't think there even is a proper term.
Uh, isn't that just abusing their monopoly position? It's not a problem that YouTube grows, it's a problem when they abuse their monopoly position. This is why we (United States of America) have antitrust laws.
"That doesn’t necessarily mean YouTube isn’t profitable, but it just means it’s not a focus at the moment. YouTube, which primarily makes money from advertising within its videos, doesn’t release revenue numbers (it is not separated in financial statements by parent company Alphabet). But some reports put revenue in the billions."
I think snapchat should have a longer format video interface inside it and then maybe after that is successful pivot it to a apple tv app / separate app / website..
Amazon can open up twitch into a more direct youtube competitor.. Apple could buy vimeo and do something similar, and/or build out their own HQ video sharing site.
As other people in the thread have pointed out, "Creators" is not the right term. I visited the site once awhile back and not only is it just a livestreaming service, but it seems like 90% of the users are high school kids, so it's not a pleasant thought to think about who among their viewers has money to spend on "Props"...
Automated TL;DR to save global hacking time (might not be perfect):
Adi Sideman, the chief executive officer of the live-streaming startup YouNow, spends his days hawking a new form of digital currency. The Props economy will exist within Rize, a new live-streaming app that YouNow is releasing in January. Sideman wants people who stream video online to accept them as a form of payment, creating an economy based on Props.
While YouNow can't compete with the behemoths on their own terms, Props lets it offer something unique: a kind of equity stake in this new economy. YouNow, which Sideman started in 2011, consists of a website and mobile app designed for people to stream live video of themselves. YouNow has raised about $30 million from investors like Union Square Ventures and the investment arm of Comcast Corp. YouNow attracted a stable of young performers, but it began having trouble luring new users several years ago when Facebook, Google, and Twitter Inc. all began focusing on live-streaming. Andy Weissman, a partner at Union Square Ventures who sits on YouNow's board, said it hadn't been seeking new funding, but that any startup with venture investors is reaching treacherous territory when its rate of growth slows. A handful of YouNow creators were in attendance - one hung out near the food table wearing a trench coat, pink boots and a pink sweatshirt, his hood pulled down low.
This is something I expected to come from a company like Medium. Basically a 'build your own content' portfolio using a block chain type currency to make the market.
User's pay $x per period (or merely periodically) in exchange for some amount of currency, which they 'spend' by consuming (viewing/reading/listening too) content offered by people creating things for them to view/read/listen to. Each month the artist can convert their accumulated currency in a $y payment. The platform lives off the difference between the $x -> C -> $y ratios.
If you can reach critical mass it makes for a very interesting twist on the existing model, sort of kickstarter meets bitcoin meets ebay. One way to finesse it would be for users to 'bid' on creative projects as well so a creator could say "I can do a video about kittens, free for anyone who contributes $.5C or more to the campaign, it will cost $C for non-backers to view it once it is complete."
You set up a virtuous loop where people willing to spend are advising the creators to the things they should work on, reducing risk on the creators part, increasing satisfaction on the users part, and overall creation/consumption overall.
The last part is not true. Blockchains are used for currencies like Bitcoin precisely because no one, not even the creators, can steal from someone once the money has been transferred, unless the new owner does not secure it properly.
A properly traded cryptocurrency allows anyone to trade at anytime (so long as miners are still going), whereas a central intermediary may not be as liquid. Thus, the cryptocurrency route may include a liquidity premium
Wasn't comparing to US dollars, was comparing to other types of assets that YouNow could have sold (e.g., stocks or bonds) that each require something more than a crypto wallet to exchange making them possibly less liquid than the cryptocurrency
Operationally the use of a distributed ledger for transaction data where people can be both consumers and producers helps make managing the system more efficient operationally. I expect it would also help defend against some internal threats such as embezzling or artificially inflating viewership or payments.
Trust. Or the lack thereof. Bitcoin today has a market cap of $162 billion. If it was "managed" by a central intermediary, what are the odds that they wouldn't turn to exploitative behavior? Whatever those odds are, they're infinitely greater than the 0% you get from a decentralized system.
And longevity. So long as any group of people has interest in Bitcoin (and there is no digital apocalypse) it will continue to exist -- as will any decentralized currency. By contrast companies, and even nations, come and go rapidly. If a coin is deemed a viable commodity then it can, and likely will, outlast the original creator of it. Anything dependent upon a centralized system tends to die when that centralized system does.
This is basically the model of https://flattr.com/ and a ton of similar things that cropped up around the same time.
I don't know of any that are actually doing well, except for extremely-niche markets. In niches they can be just fine, but that's true for any arrangement (probably even cash-via-homing-pigeon) so I don't think it actually qualifies it as broadly-applicable. I essentially like the idea, but they don't quite work (yet?).
What you are describing is essentially In App Payments in Free-to-Play mobile games. I buy bag of gems for $10, I can use gems on rare cards to continue playing and level up.
The common criticism of that business model is that the returns are disproportional to those who have money, and your livelihood is sustained by <1% of your consumers who are considered "whales" and spend very large amounts.
Actually very much NOT like pay to play games. User A pays User B for something User B created. The company that creates the platform is just overhead and gets paid indirectly through transaction fees. There are working models of this sort of in the porn industry with "web cams" (again not like in app game purchases :-)) and actual dollars.
I would put my content (development tutorials) on YouNow if it paid less than YouTube but didn't engage in the crazy shenanigans YT does. Meaning a real due process for DMCA including punishment for false claims, and truly specific and regularly enforced content restrictions for monetization.
I don't see that happening any time soon. The automated nature of the takedown system (which is really required due to volume) is going to have a set false positive rate. the very same companies/groups that will invest in these media type things are the same groups that will never accept that type of penalty.
the question is does this actually managed to side channel the investment around the major players and allow it to actually go against the market without penalty, or is this just another way to pump up an ICO on the promise of an ecosystem that will ultimately fail, but leave a lot of money out of investors hands and conveniently into those marketing it right now... I'm leaning towards the latter, but I might be wrong.
younow is very creepy. a lot of it is middle school and high school aged kids dancing around in their bedrooms or entertaining teen talk for thousands of viewers. I just get a really bad creepy vibe from the site in general
Who knows, maybe they'll end up doing a different #3, put the cash in their pocket, while creators get paid with funny money. Lotsa scams as people try to catch the next bitcoin
This is yet another block chain tipping product that is needlessly complex . Why not just give a set conversion table (one bit equals one dollar) like twitch? Also figure out your cut and fees and put that in the table.
109 comments
[ 4.4 ms ] story [ 177 ms ] threadhttp://www.wheels24.co.za/News/Capn-Slow-slams-Twitbook-Face...
What I wonder what will happen as more content creators join the pool, thus diluting the value of a "prop". Is the idea that this will also draw more consumers, thus balancing out the value of the prop ? How is the total market cap determined ? How will it grow ?
(I don't think this is that bad of an idea. Is there a lot of packaging and marketing on top? Sure, but the fundamental idea is fine.)
If your boss showed up and said "from today we're going to pay you in bananas, and our exchange rate is $1000 per banana. By the way here's a raise too" and drops a bundle of bananas on your desk... Would you consider yourself paid?
Bananas aren't even fiat! You gotta grow them first
This is a silly example, since in the article there's clearly consent on both sides of the equation. But if the coins remain as "e-points" in their system and there's not much incentive on the buy side, they're not super useful as currency.
In practice the crypto currency markets seem to fuel a good amount of liquidity. This is a pretty neat side effect of the block chain boom.
This implies that your boss is ready to trade both ways. I'd gladly accept the bundle of bananas.
Again, this is the definition of currency. The root comes from Latin and means to "flow" or "run." It's this condition of "flowing" that defines currency. As I said before, this shared perspective of how well a currency "flows" is what defines it's value. Fiat or otherwise doesn't matter. In the strawman presented here, you (and maybe the rest of the company) accept and will participate in the exchange rate, so bananas have become a slightly stronger currency. For most of the world, it's still pretty terrible, but they are marginally better because at least some people accept it as currency.
Unless we plan to go back to bartering, this same logic applies for all forms of currency. There's nothing special about gold, bitcoins, rectangular plastic cards, or green sheets of paper with dead people's faces printed on them. What gives these things value is simply society's willingness to use these as a means of conducting transactions.
Well the innovation, likely, is in the fact that they raised the money via an almost certainly illegal pyramid-style "investment" medium.
That said, how cool would it be for companies that make products to issue you a portion of the company with every purchase, so that you could actually support them and be supported by them?
In the REI case, the dividend amounts to a discount on purchases for members. Others pay the full freight. Same goes for ag coops, but the stakes are much larger and the accounting more complicated.
There is no reason other businesses can't be structured as coops, but trying to find someone who understands the structure probably requires visiting a land grant university in fly-over land and looking up the business school.
although there are some investors, which primarily help for funding and price discovery, only a small portion of the float is distributed to them. the other portion of the float is doled out to contributors, which would be the video creators in this case.
a way to avoid dilution of the pool would be to price the rewards in USD and give the associated amount of currency
they have to create a demand model to support this, many cryptocurrencies have no demand model whatsoever and just think they can reward people in it
You can read more about dTube here: https://steemit.com/science/@ms007/dtube-all-about-it
How are they profitable? What's their revenue stream? Selling coins to speculators? How on Earth does that definition of 'profitability' currently justify the value of the coins? "This is not like those other ICOs, because we made 200 million dollars selling coins!" is a huge stretch of reasoning for "So you should buy coins!"
I'm not saying the business sucks, or is a fraud, but that is an incredibly sketchy line of reasoning. I expect better from Bloomberg.
It's almost as though they're writing about it solely because they feel that they should, to avoid the risk of being seen to be taking a stand. As a result coverage of ICOs gets softer coverage than it otherwise would.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader
Loose money to attract users/creators who put more money into the system.
I don't see how this would qualify as dumping in any way.
YouTube doesn't make money, nor intends to make money in the near future[1]. The key here is to get entrenched in the market, then assert their monopoly.
On surface this might seem okay, but it definitely is anti-competitive. We've just gotten used to it. Dumping isn't the proper term, but was the closest I could find. It comes under predatory pricing, but the problem is, this business practice is so different from what the current literature consists of, I don't think there even is a proper term.
[1]: http://fortune.com/2016/10/18/youtube-profits-ceo-susan-wojc...
"That doesn’t necessarily mean YouTube isn’t profitable, but it just means it’s not a focus at the moment. YouTube, which primarily makes money from advertising within its videos, doesn’t release revenue numbers (it is not separated in financial statements by parent company Alphabet). But some reports put revenue in the billions."
Sure, it gets revenue, but I bet it's not close enough to justify the expenditure, and there's no clear path either.
Amazon can open up twitch into a more direct youtube competitor.. Apple could buy vimeo and do something similar, and/or build out their own HQ video sharing site.
The back of my head kept on trying to read that as "Beenz" instead.
(beenz: "the web's currency", also "one of the greatest dotcom disasters".)
Adi Sideman, the chief executive officer of the live-streaming startup YouNow, spends his days hawking a new form of digital currency. The Props economy will exist within Rize, a new live-streaming app that YouNow is releasing in January. Sideman wants people who stream video online to accept them as a form of payment, creating an economy based on Props. While YouNow can't compete with the behemoths on their own terms, Props lets it offer something unique: a kind of equity stake in this new economy. YouNow, which Sideman started in 2011, consists of a website and mobile app designed for people to stream live video of themselves. YouNow has raised about $30 million from investors like Union Square Ventures and the investment arm of Comcast Corp. YouNow attracted a stable of young performers, but it began having trouble luring new users several years ago when Facebook, Google, and Twitter Inc. all began focusing on live-streaming. Andy Weissman, a partner at Union Square Ventures who sits on YouNow's board, said it hadn't been seeking new funding, but that any startup with venture investors is reaching treacherous territory when its rate of growth slows. A handful of YouNow creators were in attendance - one hung out near the food table wearing a trench coat, pink boots and a pink sweatshirt, his hood pulled down low.
User's pay $x per period (or merely periodically) in exchange for some amount of currency, which they 'spend' by consuming (viewing/reading/listening too) content offered by people creating things for them to view/read/listen to. Each month the artist can convert their accumulated currency in a $y payment. The platform lives off the difference between the $x -> C -> $y ratios.
If you can reach critical mass it makes for a very interesting twist on the existing model, sort of kickstarter meets bitcoin meets ebay. One way to finesse it would be for users to 'bid' on creative projects as well so a creator could say "I can do a video about kittens, free for anyone who contributes $.5C or more to the campaign, it will cost $C for non-backers to view it once it is complete."
You set up a virtuous loop where people willing to spend are advising the creators to the things they should work on, reducing risk on the creators part, increasing satisfaction on the users part, and overall creation/consumption overall.
So using a distributed blockchain database makes it easier for you to steal from your users than if you had a centrally controlled database. Really?
Then you can claim you had a security problem and act like you have been hacked. Wait for your "company" to die. Then run with the money.
Don't underestimate the value of buzz.
In a meeting last week, with middle aged consultants who are work with IBM and the like - they ware all 'block chain this that'.
Those buzzwords help companies like IBM and other consultants generate business, and make them look like they are on top of the trends.
Nobody seemed to really understand it or it's implications - those 'pesky details' are for the Engineers!
And longevity. So long as any group of people has interest in Bitcoin (and there is no digital apocalypse) it will continue to exist -- as will any decentralized currency. By contrast companies, and even nations, come and go rapidly. If a coin is deemed a viable commodity then it can, and likely will, outlast the original creator of it. Anything dependent upon a centralized system tends to die when that centralized system does.
I don't know of any that are actually doing well, except for extremely-niche markets. In niches they can be just fine, but that's true for any arrangement (probably even cash-via-homing-pigeon) so I don't think it actually qualifies it as broadly-applicable. I essentially like the idea, but they don't quite work (yet?).
The common criticism of that business model is that the returns are disproportional to those who have money, and your livelihood is sustained by <1% of your consumers who are considered "whales" and spend very large amounts.
I don't see that happening any time soon. The automated nature of the takedown system (which is really required due to volume) is going to have a set false positive rate. the very same companies/groups that will invest in these media type things are the same groups that will never accept that type of penalty.
the question is does this actually managed to side channel the investment around the major players and allow it to actually go against the market without penalty, or is this just another way to pump up an ICO on the promise of an ecosystem that will ultimately fail, but leave a lot of money out of investors hands and conveniently into those marketing it right now... I'm leaning towards the latter, but I might be wrong.
2) pay content creators with a new cryptocurrency;
3) require advertisers to use the cryptocurrency in order to buy ads.
If YouNow implements step 3, then they might have something.