Capitalism is brutal. People spend time with people who provide the most value to their lives. And some people don't provide much value and they die alone.
We're encouraged in capitalism to spend our limited time developing networks and connections with people who can benefit us financially or career wise.
A true capitalistic value system considers it a waste of time to pursue relationships with simply interesting people with mostly non-capitalizable quality's like good sense of humor, compassion, storytelling...etc.
Only exists for capitalistic entities, like companies. There's no "capitalistic value system" for a human - capitalist society gives you freedom to decide what your value system is on your own.
That's not capitalism unless the people making emotional investments are doing so strictly for monetary gain, which doesn't appear to be supported by the article.
We're encouraged in capitalism to spend our limited time developing networks and connections with people who can benefit us financially or career wise.
A true capitalistic value system considers it a waste of time to pursue relationships with simply interesting people with mostly non-capitalizable quality's like good sense of humor, compassion, storytelling...etc.
reply.
The point of the article is that no one is making emotional investments in these people.
But we don't live in a "true" capitalistic value system, and most people don't approach their relationships in the game-theoretic way you're describing. So while you're correct about the point of the article, I think you're overstating the influence of capitalist ideology in the general case of human relationships.
Also, pasting the same comment in the thread several times makes it seem as if you don't actually care to respond to what other posters are saying, you just want to spam your thoughts.
You read that entire article and this is what you took away?
The situation is far more complex than that. Japan is facing a very real crisis, and the causes are not limited to its adoption of capitalism following WWII.
We're encouraged in capitalism to spend our limited time developing networks and connections with people who can benefit us financially or career wise.
A true capitalistic value system considers it a waste of time to pursue relationships with simply interesting people with mostly non-capitalizable quality's like good sense of humor, compassion, storytelling...etc.
reply.
And keeping in mind that both the USA and Japan have hybrid economic systems rather than pure capitalism implementations, you must be talking about an abstract concept rather than a real-world system.
Regardless, the article was not about the effects of capitalism, but rather about desocialization and abandonment of the elderly population in one class of Japan. This is not caused by capitalism alone, though capitalistic systems played a part.
Again, remember that burning desire to spend time with random elderly people when you were 14?
People did it to essentially earn social points and feel good about themselves, when you're a child - to get adults to praise you in exchange for some liberties, like breaking a curfew a bit.
My point is, I don't think Capitalism is the problem here.
I don't have that much trouble believing boy scouts could have been the American "Timur and his squad" in 1940.
Lots of ways to connect with young people. Youth organizations can get you connected, without the household commitment (they all go home at the end of the game). Scouts, church groups, Big Brother/Sister, you name it.
So don't have to go into this whole hog; don't need anybody else involved to make it work; and no unsurmountable reason to delay?
Because finding the 'right person' is seen as a precondition to starting a family. Which is an artificial obstacle, given what I wrote above. If the goal is to connect with a younger generation in a significant way, so as to know people when old.
It's the opinion of the ancestors of every currently living thing on this planet, going back to the first organisms to have evolved. Any of them who thought otherwise is extinct because they failed to pass on their genes.
The future literally belongs to those who agree with the grandparent poster.
I disagree. There is no predetermined purpose to our existence. We are biologically predispositioned towards propagation of the species, but that's only because such a thing is self-reinforcing.
Our species purpose is to reproduce. That doesn't mean every individual should feel the need to contribute, outliers like that tend to be self weeding anyway; no reason to shame the individual over it.
You'd be surprised. Its a small community. I know a half-dozen good, good friends I've made that way. Been invited to the wedding; worked with; been the guy they come to when troubled.
When I was in high school, we had an elderly man in the neighborhood. I don't even remember how, but my family befriended him, and before long me and my brother were going over to do yard chores for him, and listen to him talk about his time as a Jazz musician.
He was unfortunately estranged from his ex-wife and kids ... so as he approached his last days, my dad helped him with more and more things, including medical visits, etc. When he passed, he left him his car in his will. I still think about the guy from time to time.
I promise, that if you put the same work into being there for someone as you _HAVE_ to do with your own kids, and do it because you want to connect, that someone will be there.
If you half-ass it for the wrong reasons, of course not.
But the same thing is true, but with higher costs (both economical and psychological), if you have your own child with the same attitude.
Be advised that it's not a foolproof plan, though. I suggest deciding based on the rewards of raising them, not on the future benefits, because you might end up disappointed.
having a child is for the parents, not the child. the parents happiness and goals comes first, not the child. its sad that people have forgotten that. the parents end up miserable, and guess who else will end up miserable? you guessed it, the child.
wanting to have a child as to not be lonely in life is terrible? most kids are had for no reason at all, and its not terrible either. plus, I am pretty sure for 3 billion people in asia, this is part of the culture.
> having a child is for the parents, not the child
Of course it's for the parents. You can't make a child "for the child", since it doesn't exist (and doesn't care) until you gave life to it.
I don't have kids, and I've been told on several occasions that I was selfish for not doing so. Isn't it more selfish to have kids (who didn't ask for being born) for one's own joy?
I think the people telling you that you're being selfish are wrong.
However I don't think we can call having children a selfish act, it's pretty hard wired in us to do it. It's at least no more selfish than your average human.
> I don't have kids, and I've been told on several occasions that I was selfish for not doing so. Isn't it more selfish to have kids (who didn't ask for being born) for one's own joy?
There's a lot of positive things you can do for the environment: less or no (air, car) travel, avoid plastic and downcycling your waste, avoiding meat. As our population size increases the one best thing you can do for the environment is not having kids and if you do have kids stay as close to the amount of 1.
That's a terrible thing to do for the environment, 3bln people can ruin it just as easily as 7bln (maybe a little bit slower).
But having less people, especially in rich parts of the world, means they won't be able to develop technology to control the climate and, travel to other planets, and do all the other awesome things people do.
Besides whats the point of saving the environment if there are no people to enjoy it.
> That's a terrible thing to do for the environment, 3bln people can ruin it just as easily as 7bln (maybe a little bit slower).
Sure, and one crazy narcissistic politician can also destroy Earth. That's not the point; the point is that on average, a child is going to have an average meaningful impact, and we cannot sustain the projected growth if we keep going on like we are right now. For example, those rich people you're so enthusiastic about are eating a lot of cow meat which has a terrible Co2 footprint.
> (maybe a little bit slower).
That's a good thing. If we're slower we'll be able to have more advanced technology.
Its extremely arrogant to believe that your rich kid is going to make the difference in the world. Statistically, it won't.
> Besides whats the point of saving the environment if there are no people to enjoy it.
If you decide to not procreate there will still be people to live on Earth.
If we destroy Earth for human inhabitation that doesn't equal all life is extinct.
when did I say anything about "I gave you life, so you owe me"? if I have a child for what ever reason, I should still be a good parent. I think the same is true for owning a dog....
A single downvote is not enough to express how much I hate this mindset. A thousand words would be probably not enough either.
> having a child is for the parents, not the child.
It's beyond me how you can even write such a statement. Children are not things. They are not property. They are not "for" anything.
Children are human. They are independent individuals. You can't own them, you can't abuse them, you can't ruin their lives just because you once decided to have unprotected sex.
> its sad that people have forgotten that.
That's like saying that it's sad that people forgot how natural and beneficial slavery is. With a mindset like that, I'd say that even a dog would be too big a responsibility. Get a Roomba instead. At least it won't suffer because of you.
> and its not terrible either.
Oh yes, it is. More often than not.
> this is part of the culture
That says literally nothing about how good - in just about any sense of the word - it is. I believe you're a strong supporter of death by stoning too - it's a cultural thing, after all.
Is following the dictates of Invisible Sky Daddy a good reason?
Is being young and dumb a good reason? Social pressure?
Personally, I think publicly auditing other people's life decisions like this is just tacky and rude, and informs me more about the critic than the subject.
Happens to me, too - I chose not to spawn, and for some reason a lot of people feel entitled to tell me all sorts of things this fact tells them about me. I'm tired of it, and have begun replying with my views of their moral myopathy, manners and occasionally, breeding.
Human motivation is complicated and subject to change. His expectations would be problematic if he were to maintain them throughout his entire fatherhood, but are not an uncommon or malicious place to cultivate a desire for children. (I am assuming male.)
While it should not be the ONLY reason to have children, I think your sentiments are normal and healthy. Human affection can grow, even if from less than noble beginnings. It's easy for men to keep putting it off. As someone who was not opposed to having kids but could have easily been in your shoes because life before kids is just much more comfortable and familiar, I fully relate. My wife gave me the extra push I needed to make the leap. I will not sugar-coat it: having kids is difficult, and the worst part is the disruption to your sleep and mental exhaustion from being "on alert" to protect the new fragile being. All your life plans have to account for this new dependent. If you are a social butterfly/partier (I am not) or liked to spend a lot of unbroken time in side projects (that was me), it will hit harder. I am just about at the 1 year mark though, and I can also say that I do not regret it. Yes, there are things I miss, but it was definitely the right decision. As time went on, I adapted and started doing things again, and I would expect to regain more time as my child ages. Picking the right wife is really the decision you have to worry about, IMHO.
I think I tend towards the Aubrey de Grey point of view on this- it's not necessarily anything anyone is doing wrong here, it's more that these folks are living in dying bodies that can't do what they want them to do. If they were suddenly young again- they could go out, make new connections, start over.
With that said, I do see the point that this is a western/capitalist phenomenon in the sense that capitalism encourages business relationships at the expense of personal ones. And it's the personal ones that are more lasting and meaningful and which you need once you reach retirement age.
I think it might come back to haunt the butterfly generation, where it's fun to fly off round the world. But then you rarely create connections that are deep enough to stay with you til your death bed.
What exactly is the butterfly generation? I have never heard this term before. Are you referring to the book "The Butterfly Generation" by Palash Krishna Mehrotra and if so does this term have a distinctly Indian meaning or does it apply to people from other countries as well? Thanks for satisfying my curiosity!
The butterfly generation term that I knew was from when I started work in London around 2000. [0]
> 'Engaging the Butterfly Generation', the generation of kids that just won't settle, anywhere!
I took it to indicate a generation of teenagers / university graduates that grew up being able to use the benefits of globalisation and to flit from one job or country to the next with ease.
I did that throughout my early 20s. I'm still in regular contact with people I met 14-15 years ago. It takes effort for regular stuff. The only reason I keep my Facebook around is because it's a glorified address book and I'll hear from some of the folks from my past travels on there around holidays and birthdays. It's about the same as I talk to cousins and aunts/uncles.
My core group of friends is in touch all the time. About 12 people since 2001. I don't talk with anyone from high school (pre-01).
It just depends on your level of effort. I think for American kids, it's definitely worth getting out into the world and seeing a different perspective. It can only improve our country when we get outside the rhetoric/news bubble and see how things are done, for better or worse, in the rest of the world.
>>> If they were suddenly young again- they could go out, make new connections, start over.
I'm not so sure about that. I've met a great many elderly people who want nothing more than to rewind the clock. Given the opportunity they don't want to meet new people or do new things. They fear such experiences. That may be as symptom of being older and more frail, buy any answers to the problem wont come from trying to transform the old into the young. I don't think throwing technology at the problem will help. Nearly every elderly person I've met would much rather have a daily visit from a younger (50s) non-threatening person than even 24/7 video chat with their families.
Folks following the Aubrey de Grey line of thought separate "the person" and "their body" as though the person exists as some kind of "software" running in "hardware" that is about to fail. It might not be that simple.
Being suddenly young again would certainly be delightful for a while but there's a huge psychological burden that comes with living for a long time. While it may be possible to extend the life of the body, there are related philosophical considerations that the "live-forever" folks IMHO are flippantly dismissing. It makes me concerned that in the distant future we could find ourselves as a society with ever more problems that we're not equipped to deal with. We'll all likely be dead by then, but it makes for a thought.
I think many people would prefer to be in a body that Doesn't Age/Die Without Permission, and then figure out how to handle the problems later. I'm not saying that's a _wise_ choice, and it could certainly have issues for wealth accumulation, but staving off a certain thing (death) in exchange for nebulous maybe-bad-things (hypothetical future problems) is something that humans seem to be notoriously bad about reasoning about.
Hell, I type this, and I fall for it too: I'd much rather be able to live forever, without fear of Alzheimer's or a failing body. I have no idea how I'd pay for that, but I'd be a liar if I said I didn't want to Not Die.
Being suddenly young again would certainly be delightful for a while but there's a huge psychological burden that comes with living for a long time
Such as what exactly? No-one knows - including you - because no-one has ever run old "software" on young/rejuvenated "hardware". I think that 99% of people in failing hardware given the option to try their 18- or even 30-year old bodies again would jump at the chance and worry about vague hand-wavy "psychological burdens" later - or perhaps not ever if the new body didn't age...
Well, I don't know about a huge psychological burden- older people have been shown to have better coping mechanisms than young people.
There might be some wider problems of overpopulation though, and longer lifespan might also cause increased income inequality. That's a separate question though.
No one ever says "I wished I worked more" from their deathbed.
Prioritizing money and status ahead of family and friends is a personal decision. Business and personal success can coexist in capitalism but many people choose the former over the latter and assume they are mutually exclusive. I made that choice out of college and it took me until my mid 30's to realize it. It's really hard to re-learn how to go the other way, and I imagine it's even harder for someone who operates that way their whole adult life into retirement.
> No one ever says "I wished I worked more" from their deathbed.
I did, well at least on what could have been and what I thought was my death bed. I was very ill for months and when I started to feel like I wasn't ever going to get better I tried my best to scramble to produce publishable research.
Maybe not in those words, but I would bet there are a lot of people who wish that they had more financial security throughout their life. It's much harder to maintain relationships without financial security. One of the leading causes of divorce is extended periods of unemployment. There is also some evidence that men who work longer hours tend to have happier marriages. That would suggest that it might at least sometimes be a rational decision to put in extra hours even if you are optimizing for relationship quality rather than money or status.
No one ever says "I wished I worked more" from their deathbed.
No-one wishes they'd spent more time at some pointless job sure, but I'll wager there are many who wish they'd pursued some opportunity with greater effort.
I didn't manage to finish this article. What is the point exactly? that it sucks to live very old and die? What is specific to Japan? Is it worse in Japan than let say in Germany, China or the US. What could we do to make this better?
I found it really well written. To answer your question though, the birth rate in Germany is even lower than Japan's, though I think Japan has been low longer.
True, but I'm not sure birthrate is the only or main culprit here. I assume more and more people live far from their parents. Besides, very old people have lost their partner, siblings, and possibly some of their children (like the first person depicted in the article).
Elder loneliness is something I think about a lot. My grandparents on my father’s side are both 94. They’re also both hard of hearing. My grandpa had scarlett fever as a child and went almost deaf. He struggled through school and eventually got hearing aids in his 20’s. A huge improvement for him and every time he recounts that story he revels at the wonders of technology. I like to think my love of tech just runs in my blood. My grandma, on the other hand, has just lost her hearing in her older age. And she refuses to get hearing aids because she associates them with Grandpa not listening to her. He sometimes turns them off to zone her out :D
I live in Boston and they live about an hour away towards Cape Code. I make an effort to visit about once every two months, but there’s so much stuff they miss from my life and don’t see because their not on social media. They don’t know how to use a computer or iPad. We’ve tried with no luck.
One time I sent them photos in the mail of my new apartment, the first one I moved into with my then girlfriend (and now fiancé) about 5 years ago. I took the photos on my phone, printed them at CVS, wrote a caption on each one and mailed them off to my grandparents. They loved it and talked about it for months. I think I was even their favorite grandkid for a few months (I have three siblings and we compete with each other).
Fast forward 5 years later to my grandpa’s 94th birthday and I didn’t know what to get him. They’re house is full of stuff and they don’t need anything. I had been thinking about the photos I sent them for a few years and how if I made that easier, I’d probably do it more. Finally, I decided to make it into a script for our family to text photos to a unique number and once a month they get printed and shipped to Grandma & Grandpa. Now they’re regularly getting photos from everyone and they love it. We even compete to see who gets a photo on the fridge each month.
I told a few friends about the hack and they wanted it, so my older brother and I built it out into a full fledged product and recently launched NanaGram: https://NanaGram.co
Check it out if you have Grandparents and want to make their days a bit happier by feeling more connected to you. Would also love to hear HN’s thoughts too. Thanks!
I just wanted to say you’re doing an awesome job by making them feel included as family, and that you’re a good person for making the effort. To those reading this, make the time and effort now. Life is a long time to have regrets about what you wish you had done.
My grandmother lives in a retirement community and 9 times out of 10, families never come to visit the people she knows in her circles.
The photos are perfect for non tech literate elders, and while I haven’t checked out your product while mobile, looking forward to checking it out this evening!
Thanks! NanaGram’s made a big difference for them and I’m glad we gave up nights/weeekends to build it. The photos also give us more stuff to talk about during visits.
One other interesting unanticipated side effect is that we built the service to let your (approved) family all send photos into the same phone number for the same delivery. There’s a web UI that you can log into and see all the photos. You also get a text notification when new photos are sent in by someone else.
Now my siblings and I have a private social network of sorts. There’s stuff on there I wouldn’t share to the world at large, but would with my family. It’s a good way to keep updated with what’s going on with my family too.
Do you have offline advertising of NanaGram in retirement communities? That seems like a great way to reach more customers. Get "Nana" and the retirement community staff to market your product for you. :)
Another idea: if the photo has any date/time or location metadata, you could print that on the photo so the recipient has more information about the photos when they look at them later.
I hadn't thought of metadata yet. I'm unsure if it comes through MMS. I'll have to check.
We do know who is sending in the photo and we support captions (scroll down to the mushroom hunting photos for an example). When captions get added, we add the name and date of the user who added the photo. Lots of improvements to make in this area, for example, I'll probably release a way to insert full note cards (maybe 1 free per order) into the shipment this month.
Your caption examples are what made me think of the photo metadata, other content/context you could include in the photo. However, the user's own captions are probably more meaningful (and easier to implement ;). Photo metadata might be low quality or wrong if the image happens to get transcoded somewhere in the pipeline from camera to MMS to mobile carrier network to your service.
This is a good point - need to get those images on the home page up to date to reflect the current functionality which inserts the name. Thanks a bunch for all the feedback.
At some point, Shark Tank could be fun. Someone on Reddit mentioned a similar postcard app and I still need to find and watch that episode.
Right now the plan is to spend as much time as I can talking to customers and improving the product.
I would like to get some local tv media coverage in December. I'll wear a suit and a bowtie and say hi to my Grandparents through the TV. (And bring Andy too if he can swing it.)
To be honest, I read the whole article from the parent, which got my thinking about my grandparents because this topic's been on my mind. Then I just started typing and didn't really have a plan of where it'd end up.
We honestly don't really make much money on the whole project because the margins are razor thing. It's not software and there's a physical product that needs to be mailed, which costs a lot. We could jack up the price, but that would make it less affordable for most people.
The real goal is to just do some good in the world and connect more families with their elders. Yes, will admit there's some gross margin, but it doesn't even cover server expenses, needed software, etc. Been funding it on my credit card.
Yeah, I was surprised too. We tried looking for something so we didn't have to build it, but couldn't find anything that worked the way we wanted.
There's a few services that let you send post cards, but it's hard to tell a compelling story with just one picture. They also don't look great framed.
We've also seen some photo book services too, but they just tend to print on regular paper. We use real Kodak/Fujifilm photo paper, which look good around the house or in frames.
Thanks for sharing. Hadn't seen this yet. There are a ton of products in the space.
One of the things that makes NanaGram different is the group aspect. Most photo sharing apps are one-to-one. Usually, it's one person curating the photos and printing them and in most cases, they're sending the photos to themselves. For example, Groovebook.
We started as many-to-one with the first account being me and my 3 siblings curating photos together and sending them to our Grandparents. I think it was our 10th or so customer who asked us to create a way to send the same set of photos to multiple loved ones. That's when the service became many-to-many (or one-to-many if you're an only grandkid) and I started sending a copy of my Grandparents photos to myself.
My youngest brother is the most interesting (and sometimes elusive) man in the family and it's always tough getting photos from him. But every month so far, sure enough, he's reminded and sends in a sweet photo or two.
It's been the most interesting journey I've had to date. Unsure of where it'll lead but I plan to push through the end of December. I've been at it essentially full-time since the beginning of September with help from Andy on nights/weekends.
Prior to this project, I had a failed solo side project. This project is different in so many ways, in part because I have people to talk to. For example, my friend Josh has been incredibly helpful on the product design side, talking on the phone with me once a week. And of course Andy, a world-class brother who I love.
We need to reach something like 2,000 Nanas to make this a full-time focus (for me) and I think we have a shot. But if even if we don't get there, the amount of happiness generated in the world from just the first 7 deliveries outweighs the sum of all other happiness generated for everything I've worked on to date. Next week 23 more orders are being delivered and it'll be awesome fuel. Even though I'm being a bit irresponsible bootstrapping this project through to the end of December, I'll have zero regrets if we don't end up getting to 2k.
I think you definitely have a shot. I'd suggest spinning up some social media accounts to widen your engagement since you're going to have a ton of overlap with the Instagram/Snapchat crowd. Also your prices for the higher tiers look on the cheap side. Don't be afraid to play with pricing.
Hopefully by then self-driving cars are a thing so I can just tour around the world and err. Actually nvm I don't like that, I hope I'll be able to play and enjoy video games all day then, call the young ones n00bs and troll them for not knowing what a n00b is.
Japan's elderly population (25%) is much higher than any other OCDE country (14.5% for the US). Investment in robot assistants for the elderly hasn't been particularly fruitful, therefore Japan is slowly turning to immigration to take care of them.
My aunt worked in geronto-theraphy - and always told us about the russian and polish care-takers working at the nursing homes caring for elderly SS-Soldiers in 90s and 20s. What a job, feeding the guy who might have murdered your grandparents.
I hope having immigrants come to help, japan is able to cast off its racism.
My mother-in-law lives in an active community where old people live. The other day I had gone to visit her and she was playing bridge with a dozen people. I thought to myself "There is a 1000 years of history here in this table". It was a humbling thought.
Bridge is freakin' great. It's recently infected my 25-35 age range circle of friends and now we've almost all caught the bug. It's like some kind of partners chess, but meaner, in card game form. A little like spades if you're familiar with that, but makes spades look like a game for babies. No requirements for multiple or specially prepared decks like some games (hand & foot, pepper) so it's convenient, too.
Which is to say: see if you can join their game :-)
I recently read an article about India being afraid of embracing Western marriage basically for fear that it would lead to the elderly not being cared for.
It's more complicated than that, but it feels like it should be a real concern as India westernizes.
I’ve been mulling over a similar idea in my head for a couple of weeks now and would love to get someone else’s opinion. Without placing any kind of a moral judgement on the lifestyle choices of others, sometimes I feel like a lot of the social problems the United States faces are exasperated by the small nuclear families that seem to predominate in the US. Large multigenerational families seem better equipped to weather financial insecurity and deal with members of the family that might struggle with mental health issues, both of which seem to play a pivotal role in homelessness and food insecurity. Additionally, there seems to be a general sense of anxiety for young people in the States and while I don’t have any evidence to back up this hypothesis, I think that it might be because millennials tend to be less socialized than older generations. If humans evolved to exist in tight nit tribes, it would make sense that the relative solitude of modern life would breed a sense of malaise.
Obviously most of this post is conjecture but I appreciate any thoughts you might offer on the topic.
My father died a couple of years ago. He was a proud union civil servant, and several dozen (maybe 200) people showed up to the funeral who knew him at various degrees of separation. I knew only a few of them, but it impressed upon me as someone who works more with code than directly with people that so many people so distantly removed from a person would pay such respects. Who shows up to your last rites says a lot about how you lived your life. He spent time above and beyond his work duties to give people a better life by his union activity, the legacy of which lasts today. I have a small-ish family (we're on good terms) and have had some modest accomplishments at work, but most of my friends are from college, and live far away. Old work buddies I see only infrequently, and it'd be hard to imagine how they'd be notified in the case of my death, and I certainly don't have the time or inclination to become such a pioneer in FOSS that my passing would be momentous in the industry. It got me to thinking how we lose a lot not only when we're dedicated to work, but also only to too small a social circle to have the kind of old age and passing that we'd ideally envision for ourselves. It's spurred me to volunteer more time in my local community in various ways in the hopes that I'd become the kind of person others would find dependable, spread the good word about, and miss when I'm gone.
Here in the Czech Republic there are many discussions about how there is not enough money for the elderly (almost all of whom lost what little they had during the transition away from communism due to changes in currency). Simultaneously, there is a lot of discussion about the lack of spots in pre-schools. And I also see that many elderly people are quite lonely. I think it would be a great idea to create combined elderly pre-school centers. You could attend if you were under the age of 7 or over the age of 70. Morning would be breakfast time, where the elderly and the very young would eat together. Then there would be play time, when the elderly could chat and watch as the children played. Then there could be lunch time. And after lunch, the elderly and the very young could sing songs. Then there could be some excersize time, which would mostly teach the kids to sit still and follow directions, while enticing the elderly to do some stretching. And then the kids would go home. And the elderly could perhaps sleep up-stairs.
I do not think this would harm the children, and I think that many old people would be much happier in such a setting.
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[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 199 ms ] threadWow, people are brutal when they are given free will! Looks like this "free will" is a brutal, evil thing.
A true capitalistic value system considers it a waste of time to pursue relationships with simply interesting people with mostly non-capitalizable quality's like good sense of humor, compassion, storytelling...etc.
Only exists for capitalistic entities, like companies. There's no "capitalistic value system" for a human - capitalist society gives you freedom to decide what your value system is on your own.
The point of the article is that no one is making emotional investments in these people.
Also, pasting the same comment in the thread several times makes it seem as if you don't actually care to respond to what other posters are saying, you just want to spam your thoughts.
The situation is far more complex than that. Japan is facing a very real crisis, and the causes are not limited to its adoption of capitalism following WWII.
You get what you value.
Regardless, the article was not about the effects of capitalism, but rather about desocialization and abandonment of the elderly population in one class of Japan. This is not caused by capitalism alone, though capitalistic systems played a part.
Remember that burning desire to spend time with random elderly people when you were 14?
Yeah, neither do I.
[0]I actually know of one, since I'm Russian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur_and_His_Squad
The problem I see with that is it's artificial.
Again, remember that burning desire to spend time with random elderly people when you were 14?
People did it to essentially earn social points and feel good about themselves, when you're a child - to get adults to praise you in exchange for some liberties, like breaking a curfew a bit.
My point is, I don't think Capitalism is the problem here.
I don't have that much trouble believing boy scouts could have been the American "Timur and his squad" in 1940.
And capitalism in Japan isn't the same flavor of capitalism in the US, and wouldn't necessarily have the same societal weight in context.
Reading this article and watching this random video put me in high key stress mode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Zxvr2NjDA&feature=youtu.be...
So don't have to go into this whole hog; don't need anybody else involved to make it work; and no unsurmountable reason to delay?
The future literally belongs to those who agree with the grandparent poster.
It might be your purpose, or even most people's purpose, but there are plenty that frankly just aren't that interested.
You're reiterating what I said above.
>...outliers like that tend to be self weeding anyway; no reason to shame the individual over it.
I'm not sure what you mean or are implying with the "self-weeding" terminology.
He was unfortunately estranged from his ex-wife and kids ... so as he approached his last days, my dad helped him with more and more things, including medical visits, etc. When he passed, he left him his car in his will. I still think about the guy from time to time.
If you half-ass it for the wrong reasons, of course not.
But the same thing is true, but with higher costs (both economical and psychological), if you have your own child with the same attitude.
Add : bringing in a fully autonomous individual motivated by the hope+belief+expectation that they will be there when you grow old?
Small chance, considering that the human trait which they need to be subscribed to is empathy, self-lessness and family.
A lot of which will be learnt from their own parents. Namely you.
wanting to have a child as to not be lonely in life is terrible? most kids are had for no reason at all, and its not terrible either. plus, I am pretty sure for 3 billion people in asia, this is part of the culture.
Of course it's for the parents. You can't make a child "for the child", since it doesn't exist (and doesn't care) until you gave life to it.
I don't have kids, and I've been told on several occasions that I was selfish for not doing so. Isn't it more selfish to have kids (who didn't ask for being born) for one's own joy?
However I don't think we can call having children a selfish act, it's pretty hard wired in us to do it. It's at least no more selfish than your average human.
There's a lot of positive things you can do for the environment: less or no (air, car) travel, avoid plastic and downcycling your waste, avoiding meat. As our population size increases the one best thing you can do for the environment is not having kids and if you do have kids stay as close to the amount of 1.
But having less people, especially in rich parts of the world, means they won't be able to develop technology to control the climate and, travel to other planets, and do all the other awesome things people do.
Besides whats the point of saving the environment if there are no people to enjoy it.
Sure, and one crazy narcissistic politician can also destroy Earth. That's not the point; the point is that on average, a child is going to have an average meaningful impact, and we cannot sustain the projected growth if we keep going on like we are right now. For example, those rich people you're so enthusiastic about are eating a lot of cow meat which has a terrible Co2 footprint.
> (maybe a little bit slower).
That's a good thing. If we're slower we'll be able to have more advanced technology.
Its extremely arrogant to believe that your rich kid is going to make the difference in the world. Statistically, it won't.
> Besides whats the point of saving the environment if there are no people to enjoy it.
If you decide to not procreate there will still be people to live on Earth.
If we destroy Earth for human inhabitation that doesn't equal all life is extinct.
> having a child is for the parents, not the child.
It's beyond me how you can even write such a statement. Children are not things. They are not property. They are not "for" anything.
Children are human. They are independent individuals. You can't own them, you can't abuse them, you can't ruin their lives just because you once decided to have unprotected sex.
> its sad that people have forgotten that.
That's like saying that it's sad that people forgot how natural and beneficial slavery is. With a mindset like that, I'd say that even a dog would be too big a responsibility. Get a Roomba instead. At least it won't suffer because of you.
> and its not terrible either.
Oh yes, it is. More often than not.
> this is part of the culture
That says literally nothing about how good - in just about any sense of the word - it is. I believe you're a strong supporter of death by stoning too - it's a cultural thing, after all.
Is being young and dumb a good reason? Social pressure?
Personally, I think publicly auditing other people's life decisions like this is just tacky and rude, and informs me more about the critic than the subject.
Happens to me, too - I chose not to spawn, and for some reason a lot of people feel entitled to tell me all sorts of things this fact tells them about me. I'm tired of it, and have begun replying with my views of their moral myopathy, manners and occasionally, breeding.
With that said, I do see the point that this is a western/capitalist phenomenon in the sense that capitalism encourages business relationships at the expense of personal ones. And it's the personal ones that are more lasting and meaningful and which you need once you reach retirement age.
If you're not, please let us know your secret.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13432312-the-butterfly-g...
> 'Engaging the Butterfly Generation', the generation of kids that just won't settle, anywhere!
I took it to indicate a generation of teenagers / university graduates that grew up being able to use the benefits of globalisation and to flit from one job or country to the next with ease.
[0]: http://www.c21media.net/conference-event/c21-kids-content-fu...
My core group of friends is in touch all the time. About 12 people since 2001. I don't talk with anyone from high school (pre-01).
It just depends on your level of effort. I think for American kids, it's definitely worth getting out into the world and seeing a different perspective. It can only improve our country when we get outside the rhetoric/news bubble and see how things are done, for better or worse, in the rest of the world.
I'm not so sure about that. I've met a great many elderly people who want nothing more than to rewind the clock. Given the opportunity they don't want to meet new people or do new things. They fear such experiences. That may be as symptom of being older and more frail, buy any answers to the problem wont come from trying to transform the old into the young. I don't think throwing technology at the problem will help. Nearly every elderly person I've met would much rather have a daily visit from a younger (50s) non-threatening person than even 24/7 video chat with their families.
But what if all their old friends were young again too?
Being suddenly young again would certainly be delightful for a while but there's a huge psychological burden that comes with living for a long time. While it may be possible to extend the life of the body, there are related philosophical considerations that the "live-forever" folks IMHO are flippantly dismissing. It makes me concerned that in the distant future we could find ourselves as a society with ever more problems that we're not equipped to deal with. We'll all likely be dead by then, but it makes for a thought.
What is the burden?
A burden I foresee is that people are going to have to choose between life extension and assisted suicide.
Hell, I type this, and I fall for it too: I'd much rather be able to live forever, without fear of Alzheimer's or a failing body. I have no idea how I'd pay for that, but I'd be a liar if I said I didn't want to Not Die.
Such as what exactly? No-one knows - including you - because no-one has ever run old "software" on young/rejuvenated "hardware". I think that 99% of people in failing hardware given the option to try their 18- or even 30-year old bodies again would jump at the chance and worry about vague hand-wavy "psychological burdens" later - or perhaps not ever if the new body didn't age...
There might be some wider problems of overpopulation though, and longer lifespan might also cause increased income inequality. That's a separate question though.
Prioritizing money and status ahead of family and friends is a personal decision. Business and personal success can coexist in capitalism but many people choose the former over the latter and assume they are mutually exclusive. I made that choice out of college and it took me until my mid 30's to realize it. It's really hard to re-learn how to go the other way, and I imagine it's even harder for someone who operates that way their whole adult life into retirement.
I did, well at least on what could have been and what I thought was my death bed. I was very ill for months and when I started to feel like I wasn't ever going to get better I tried my best to scramble to produce publishable research.
No-one wishes they'd spent more time at some pointless job sure, but I'll wager there are many who wish they'd pursued some opportunity with greater effort.
I live in Boston and they live about an hour away towards Cape Code. I make an effort to visit about once every two months, but there’s so much stuff they miss from my life and don’t see because their not on social media. They don’t know how to use a computer or iPad. We’ve tried with no luck.
One time I sent them photos in the mail of my new apartment, the first one I moved into with my then girlfriend (and now fiancé) about 5 years ago. I took the photos on my phone, printed them at CVS, wrote a caption on each one and mailed them off to my grandparents. They loved it and talked about it for months. I think I was even their favorite grandkid for a few months (I have three siblings and we compete with each other).
Fast forward 5 years later to my grandpa’s 94th birthday and I didn’t know what to get him. They’re house is full of stuff and they don’t need anything. I had been thinking about the photos I sent them for a few years and how if I made that easier, I’d probably do it more. Finally, I decided to make it into a script for our family to text photos to a unique number and once a month they get printed and shipped to Grandma & Grandpa. Now they’re regularly getting photos from everyone and they love it. We even compete to see who gets a photo on the fridge each month.
I told a few friends about the hack and they wanted it, so my older brother and I built it out into a full fledged product and recently launched NanaGram: https://NanaGram.co
Check it out if you have Grandparents and want to make their days a bit happier by feeling more connected to you. Would also love to hear HN’s thoughts too. Thanks!
Edit: spelling, grammar, and clarity.
And PSA - call your grandparents!
My grandmother lives in a retirement community and 9 times out of 10, families never come to visit the people she knows in her circles.
The photos are perfect for non tech literate elders, and while I haven’t checked out your product while mobile, looking forward to checking it out this evening!
One other interesting unanticipated side effect is that we built the service to let your (approved) family all send photos into the same phone number for the same delivery. There’s a web UI that you can log into and see all the photos. You also get a text notification when new photos are sent in by someone else.
Now my siblings and I have a private social network of sorts. There’s stuff on there I wouldn’t share to the world at large, but would with my family. It’s a good way to keep updated with what’s going on with my family too.
Another idea: if the photo has any date/time or location metadata, you could print that on the photo so the recipient has more information about the photos when they look at them later.
Reddit suggested an Adopt a Nana last week (https://redd.it/7fg6q3) which I love in theory but would need to go deep on to make it work in practice.
We do know who is sending in the photo and we support captions (scroll down to the mushroom hunting photos for an example). When captions get added, we add the name and date of the user who added the photo. Lots of improvements to make in this area, for example, I'll probably release a way to insert full note cards (maybe 1 free per order) into the shipment this month.
Right now the plan is to spend as much time as I can talking to customers and improving the product.
I would like to get some local tv media coverage in December. I'll wear a suit and a bowtie and say hi to my Grandparents through the TV. (And bring Andy too if he can swing it.)
We honestly don't really make much money on the whole project because the margins are razor thing. It's not software and there's a physical product that needs to be mailed, which costs a lot. We could jack up the price, but that would make it less affordable for most people.
The real goal is to just do some good in the world and connect more families with their elders. Yes, will admit there's some gross margin, but it doesn't even cover server expenses, needed software, etc. Been funding it on my credit card.
There's a few services that let you send post cards, but it's hard to tell a compelling story with just one picture. They also don't look great framed.
We've also seen some photo book services too, but they just tend to print on regular paper. We use real Kodak/Fujifilm photo paper, which look good around the house or in frames.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-to-share-digital-photos-with...
One of the things that makes NanaGram different is the group aspect. Most photo sharing apps are one-to-one. Usually, it's one person curating the photos and printing them and in most cases, they're sending the photos to themselves. For example, Groovebook.
We started as many-to-one with the first account being me and my 3 siblings curating photos together and sending them to our Grandparents. I think it was our 10th or so customer who asked us to create a way to send the same set of photos to multiple loved ones. That's when the service became many-to-many (or one-to-many if you're an only grandkid) and I started sending a copy of my Grandparents photos to myself.
My youngest brother is the most interesting (and sometimes elusive) man in the family and it's always tough getting photos from him. But every month so far, sure enough, he's reminded and sends in a sweet photo or two.
It's been the most interesting journey I've had to date. Unsure of where it'll lead but I plan to push through the end of December. I've been at it essentially full-time since the beginning of September with help from Andy on nights/weekends.
Prior to this project, I had a failed solo side project. This project is different in so many ways, in part because I have people to talk to. For example, my friend Josh has been incredibly helpful on the product design side, talking on the phone with me once a week. And of course Andy, a world-class brother who I love.
We need to reach something like 2,000 Nanas to make this a full-time focus (for me) and I think we have a shot. But if even if we don't get there, the amount of happiness generated in the world from just the first 7 deliveries outweighs the sum of all other happiness generated for everything I've worked on to date. Next week 23 more orders are being delivered and it'll be awesome fuel. Even though I'm being a bit irresponsible bootstrapping this project through to the end of December, I'll have zero regrets if we don't end up getting to 2k.
There's the GYST website [0], but that doesn't handle what to do when you're still alive.
I don't think you can rely on kids, they'll only be there maximum for a couple of hours per week if you're lucky.
[0]: https://www.gyst.com/
https://data.oecd.org/pop/elderly-population.htm#indicator-c...
http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/01/japan-prefers-robot-bear...
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/its-population-ages-...
Which is to say: see if you can join their game :-)
When you’re retired, much easier to get at least two tables.
It's more complicated than that, but it feels like it should be a real concern as India westernizes.
Obviously most of this post is conjecture but I appreciate any thoughts you might offer on the topic.
I do not think this would harm the children, and I think that many old people would be much happier in such a setting.