Ask HN: Is working on online casinos unethical?
I think I think (yes..) that it is. Because you are creating technology that almost certainly is making the world worse. The amount of joy people get from gambling for fun is outweighed by the amount of grief gambling addiction causes. And even if it isn't, most online casinos are designed in such a way to attract addicts. I'm not very sure of my opinion, so I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks!
Edit: Ops. Should have mentioned that in my part of the world, online gambling is not illegal.
87 comments
[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 134 ms ] threadThe first source of money for online casinos is not the money that the poor addict pours into it, it is the huge money laundering operations that are done in the back. Online casinos are not based in places that you will imagine particular transparent in terms of tax policy. They are based in Malta (russian money), Gibraltar (UK money) or in places like the Caiman Islands, Panama... A journalist was murdered in Malta for just speaking about this.
Or let's suppose you run a VPN in China that allows the Chinese to arguably-justifiably access Western websites, and you need to launder your funds.
Or perhaps you're a spy inside ISIS and need to hide the fact that you're getting funded by the US.
Or perhaps you're in Iran and want to leave, but since Iran doesn't permit you to bring any money out of the country, you (arguably ethically and justifiably) decide to get it out via Bitcoins.
Being able to launder money is arguably very similar to being able to maintain privacy, which means it falls under Martin Fowler's excellent argument for privacy: https://www.martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-privacy.htm...
I have never argued for money laundering in my life, but guys... you have to stop seeing everything in black-and-white.
Ads often incite people to buy things. This must work at least some of the time, or ads wouldn't exist. So some people do spend their money on unnecessary junk through browsing facebook.
You argument still holds that advertising still makes you possibily spend more for the exact same thing, but it's hardly comparable to gambling addictive behaviours in my opinion.
Note - not for or against online casinos, just disagree with your point.
https://youtu.be/1ZAPwfrtAFY?t=385
They have a long history of malicious behavior, but it is not, on the face of it, wrong to take such a job.
But I still might avoid it, myself. Once bitten, twice shy. You spend fifty years conspiring to conceal damages to your own customers and maybe I prefer not to work for you even after you stop doing it
Yes, working for an industry that does harm to people is unethical. However, the censure that is deserved is proportional to the the "status" of the position they occupy in the industry, e.g. CEOs > Professionals > Blue Collar > Part Timers. Its not just the influence the different people have on the industries or companies they work in, its also a function of their autonomy. A lot of people have little choice but to take whatever job they can get, because they have other obligations as well: to their selves, to their families, and to their communities.
I find that figure incredibly dubious considering that tobacco requires years of chronic use before it kills you, and it typically doesn't kill you in a way that is entirely attributable to that single cause.
Even if you, personally, feel OK about it, ask yourself what would happen if a prospective (future) employer found out about your activities.
Doesn't that depend on your location?
I believe in most countries online gambling is not illegal per se, but definitely regulated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_gambling#Legal_status
We need an engineering code of conduct - too many tech folk happy to take a dollar in return for building stuff that makes the world a worse place.
> Because all the above have tangible negative effects on society.
Your friends are kidding themselves. What can be more tangible than taking money from people? I am not taking sides on the "is allowing gambling unethical" question, just saying that the "tangible effects" argument is weak.
Too bad that it is a very subjective idea. What your friends who work in online gambling think has a negative effect on society (and thus could be said to make the world a worse place) does not seem that way to me. I see HFT as market makers and bankers as something necessary to keep capital flowing. Of course, there are still industries that I feel cross the line when it comes to ethics as well, but I'm sure there are many who disagree with my opinion as well.
That exists [1]. The problem is, as gk1 points out, it doesn't have much teeth without licensure.
[1]: https://www.computer.org/web/education/code-of-ethics
Most engineering disciplines have this, and they take it very, very seriously. That's part of being a PE.
The problem is enforcing breaches of the code. In engineering disciplines that require licenses from the relevant government or professional bodies, breaching the ethical codes can result in you, or whoever signed for your work, losing their license and thus being unable to work (or at the very least they'd have to work under another engineer). In addition to facing potential legal and financial consequences for their actions.
But we don't have mandatory licensing in software and I honestly struggle with how we would even implement that. In a traditional engineering discipline such as civil engineering, teams of engineers work on a project that requires millions of dollars to construct, with many reviews by other engineers and overseen by more people.
But all it takes to make software is a computer. The barrier to entry is so much lower that, if you're a bad actor, it's not that difficult to find someone who will be willing to do your dirty work for money. Even in places that license software engineers (I don't think a PE exam existed for software until 2012, but I may be mistaken) there's really no incentive to get one because companies by and large don't care (there are a few that might, though, like aviation or medical).
The best idea I've been able to come up with is a combination of education on ethical issues and a voluntary code of ethics that we get as many software engineers, developers, and companies to sign onto. It doesn't solve the problem, but it's at least an incremental improvement over the Wild West that we currently have.
Let's see your evidence for this. Otherwise, bullshit.
> We need an engineering code of conduct
No. What we need is a no-bullshit code of conduct- All actions should be based on evidence, instead of belief. Engineering included. That would solve this, and many many many other problems occurring now.
I work at an e-commerce company that is designed and incentivized to sell as much product as possible. Are we taking advantage of "shopping addicts"? Where is the line drawn between capitalism and morality?
Sidenote: Casinos also exist to provide entertainment value. I don't mind spending $20 on blackjack just to play with my friends and talk with new people. Just because there is a subset of individuals that can't handle that entertainment responsibly doesn't mean that the business itself is immoral.
Yes. Why wouldn't it be? That's why regulations regarding advertisement and fair pricing were created, even though they're not very effective in the digital world. Still, it could be a lot worse.
Alcohol is not bad because some small percentage of people get addicted. Neither is online gaming, neither is sex, neither is marijuana, neither is gambling.
Now, nicotine... THERE you might have an argument. But even that is fraught with difficulty: http://discovermagazine.com/2014/march/13-nicotine-fix
Yes there are some purely counterproductive businesses. Online casinos may be that, if they are designed solely to fleece people and hook the addicted.
I wish that casinos had to do more to ensure the person gambling had the ability to lose the money, but that adds a lot of regulatory burdens that a lot of people would find onerous on free market enterprises (I don't, but that is a political discussion not meant for this topic).
My boss had this theory how betting small amounts of money is just another form of entertainment people enjoy, just like going to the cinema or playing a video game, and thus we were in the entertainment business. I didn't really buy it and I wondered if he truly believed it himself.
Not everyone has a chance to work on world-changing, truly innovative stuff, but there's a lot of productive, useful work to be done, and I just think that online betting is not one of them.
This whale principle certainly seems to cover quite a bit of the economy.
Even movies are similar. You want to spend a million (or a few) on star wars ? Not a problem. [1]
From a psychological standpoint I would strongly suggest that you never make it your mission to save people from themselves. There's only 2 ways you come out of that experience: evil (lost belief in mankind, and therefore anything goes), or mad.
[1] http://mentalfloss.com/article/53388/6-most-expensive-pieces...
You cannot let your life be controlled by "ethics" like this. It's not reasonable.
For some that's true. I know people who like to responsible gamble from time to time. It's entertainment for them.
Is working for Tobacco companies unethical? Well yes, because people die from cancer which was caused from smoking for example.
Is working for the bank unethical? Well yes, because most banks make people buy bonds that have a high profit for the banks but lower for the customers.
Is working for your local grocery store unethical? Well yes, because you are again making people fat by placing candy at the exit so you profit more.
Everything is unethical to some extent, just decided what level you want to be on and be happy.
If I worked at McD's National, and were juggling fat/salt/sugar to produce the most addictive fries, then I'd call that unethical. But to sell beef burgers to folks in a hurry for lunch, no.
Even if the person you're selling to is obese and will likely die an early death if the person in question continues his or hers behavior?
Actually I'd really hear answers about a similar question: Is working on p2w games unethical?
I was wondering about that in connection with the whole Battlefront 2 fiasco. EA got a lot of flak but I remember when Apple announced the in-app purchase for free apps back in 2009. Feels like it was only yesterday but that was when a lot of things clearly changed.
https://techcrunch.com/2009/10/15/apple-announces-in-app-pur...
Obviously my answer is that yes, it is unethical. The problem is (and this applies to gambling as well) that it's too damned profitable for companies to give it up without a huge fight.
But your question is not ethical but your own belief system... Not ours.
Here is an example. The founder of Mothers Against drunk driving took a job with a liquor industry (1). Now that is unethical imo
(1) http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1994-01-15/news/940115013...
Why do you say "online casinos are designed in such a way to attract addicts"? Aren't they just designed to attract people who want to use them, which happens to include addicts?
Aren't you assuming that addicts are helpless people with absolutely no agency of their own? Given that this isn't a question of chemical dependency, aren't they morally responsible for exercising better judgement? I mean, many people gamble without any problems. Why should the casino be considered immoral because of someone else's poor choices?
Is online gambling especially heinous for some reason you haven't clearly articulated, or do you apply this thinking to other things people may become addicted to as well with a similar joy/grief tradeoff? It would apply to recreational drugs, I'm certain. Someone else already asked about social media. Do you think this way about other aspects of society?
Elsewhere in this thread people have compared casinos to video games, tobacco, and facebook. Video games run a full spectrum from predatory to wholesome, so you'd have to look at that on a case-by-case basis. I regret some, but definitely not most of the games I've bought/played. I'm not a smoker, but I think most smokers would prefer to not need to smoke. Looking at it another way, I don't think any smokers would prefer that their children start smoking, so in my view tobacco is unethical. Facebook has both saved and ruined lives so it's in a grey zone for me.
By this test, casinos/lotteries/etc. land firmly in the far unethical side of the spectrum for me personally, but you might have a different view based on your own experiences. Ideally someone would find hard data to support one view or another.
Is this just an intellectual exercise? In that case, it's a reasonable question that might lead to an interesting conversation.
Are you thinking of working for one, but worried about how you would feel? In that case, I don't think any amount of reassurance from internet strangers would help.
Are you worried about how others might view you if you have it on your CV? That may be a valid concern, but in that case, it's an XY problem.
Are you looking at a pile of CVs, and thinking about whether to reject someone on these "ethical" grounds? You don't know what predicament caused the candidate to take that job, or to (want to) leave it, or the exact nature of what they did there.
If you work on technology that can help to identify harmful play and intervene appropriately, then you are probably creating technology that makes the world better, even if you are doing so for a company whose other products may be making the world worse.
Show me some empirical data backing this belief and you might have an actual argument.
Gambling (in moderation) is literally the only thing my parents have in common (other than mutual respect), and they've been together nearly 50 years.
I have definitely enjoyed my trips to Mohegan Sun, Atlantic City and Las Vegas, even if I've lost money on the trip.
The vast majority of people who gamble are not addicted to it and participate in moderation.
You may also want to consider that your non-participation in an activity may not affect whether it happens or not. Arguably, there will always be a provider of gambling services where it is legal (and maybe even where it isn't). From this perspective, the most ethical choice may be to be to provide the most ethical gambling service. However, this may be commercially challenging.
Ultimately, only you can decide whether this is ethical, as ethics is subjective.