Ask HN: Who hires mathematicians?
Granted, as I am only graduating with a straight BSc it is perhaps a bit presumptuous of me to consider myself a mathematician, but I would like to. I've been looking at jobs and the only people who seem interested in me are banks or people looking for a "quantitative analyst" in the financial sector.
Who hires mathematicians, other than the aforementioned financial industry?
I know that machine learning is pretty math heavy, and I have taken a look at some of the mathematics involved and some programming firms also don't mind if you have a BSc Mathematics/Applied Mathematics degree. But doing that doesn't seem like doing mathematics.
This is perhaps an odd question for the site, but I have been struggling with this and everyone here seems professional and helpful from my years of reading here.
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[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 71.9 ms ] threadAnd yes it does make watching peaky blinders interesting :-)
Another area is finance, as you mentioned. I interviewed at several hedge funds and investment banks after my undergraduate degree (in physics and mathematics).
Of course, it's not hard to go into CS for a masters or PhD which opens up many other options as well. This was more what I did.
Almost all these positions require you to be capable of both whiteboard work, along with programming. So be sure you can develop software.
As for places to look, there's lots of stuff going on in the web and general computing sectors which are now making use of machine learning tools and hiring teams of data scientists. There's also quantitative biology (pharmacology), climate science, etc. disciplines, but many of them want applicants who have a PhD.
If things don't seem "mathy" enough, it's because a lot of the true math jobs and research requires a graduate degree in a math-related field. Doesn't need to be a Math/Applied Math PhD, but even CS, Physics, Climatology, Systems Biology, etc. programs set you up for a math-based career. Without trying to be demeaning, math is a very vertical discipline and the issue is that undergraduate math is really just the basic competences and most of the interesting stuff comes after, which is why many things require a lot more than a BS.
My reason for asking the question is two-fold: some badly needed reassurance that I have not rolled myself into a hole (I think it was a design flaw that we cannot re-roll characters in real life) and getting a broader perspective on potential places to keep in mind - in terms of extra-curricular skills that I need to gather along the way.
You haven't mentioned any software skills. I would recommend develop whatever skills you have in that area. The ability to program is becoming as important as literacy and numeracy. Even more so for a mathematician.
My bias is that I have a PhD in math and have been a software engineer for the last 10+ years. I have worked in a lot of different areas and that has largely been because of the combination of math and software (and luck).
I didn't mention programming because I don't see myself being a developer, which I knew would get a lot of attention. I like solving problems with programming, but I don't see myself writing a webapp to collect information for someone to steal.
Computer Science is my secret lover. I initially studied that, but my university focused on producing java devs for industry and didn't do the "science" of computer science. I still work through books when I have time though. About half-way with TAOCP V1.
Since you brought it up, I've had a hard time looking at positions for software engineers (not a single mention on this month's whos hiring for example). Any ideas?
Don't worry too much if you don't match the exact description of a job posting. I've actually never met all of the job requirements for any of the jobs I've been hired to. Point of fact, most people will look at a Math degree as a degree in "Very Smart" and give you the benefit of the doubt about being able to pick up any specific skills you might be missing. This is doubly-true for niche fields (like web analytics) where there aren't specialized degrees, and picking up the skills on the fly is a requirement.
I will say, almost any job that you take won't look like "doing mathematics" in the sense that you're used to from college. That pretty much doesn't exist outside of academia, with the possible exception of research labs that require an advanced degree.
Jobs on the first page:
- Mathematician @ Reflexion Investments
- Entry Level Systems Engineer @ Boeing
- Special Agent @ FBI
- Quality Engineer 1 @ Northrop Grumman
- Software Quality Engineer 1 @ Northrop Grumman
- Junior Independent Credit Review Officer @ Bofi Federal Bank
- Mathematics & Statistics Student Trainee @ US Air Force
- Academic Tutor @ MathWizJohn Tutoring
- Cost Analyst, Junior @ Booz Allen Hamilton
- Police Recruit (Entry Level) @ City of Chula Vista, CA
...the list goes on.
But I can't imagine going through three years of that and then have to spend your time with web analytics. It must feel awfully pedestrian. The level of the math can't be anywhere close to what a BSc is capable of.
Data Science is possible, but generally seems hard to break in without prior programming experience or a masters or higher - I had problems getting in as a 4 year PhD dropout from a prestigious math program, and ended up teaching myself programming & have carved out a nice career as a software engineer. My math & physics background has proven to be a bonus in my favor when interviewing, and I generally am favorable to people with a math background I encounter in industry/interviewing candidates since I have found it fairly uncommon.
I would go to on campus career events if possible, and talk with company recruiters about interviewing & general tips. There are potential other options depending on how open you are to them - the options are a lot more open IMO than with most degrees. One thing that might help is to go to Indeed, LinkedIn, etc., and just search for jobs in a particular area - if a particular profession sounds like something that might be feasible/palatable for a career or first step, jot down the title, and continue. This doesn't mean you're committing to anything in particular, but it will help you understand what you are looking for better and better prepare for any future interview sessions where they ask you what got you interested in <insert position>.
So I guess the question is: are you looking for a job where you get to do maths, or are you just worrying about employability?
At this point, a lot of people decide to get a masters degree in operations research, statistics, or computer science. But don't completely give up and get an MBA. :-)
I'm an academic myself, and a significant fraction of our recent PhD grads have gotten positions in data science, and at least one is now at a pharmaceutical company working on mathematical modeling. The jobs are out there. The tricky thing is that people don't generally advertise for mathematicians, even though a good mathematician may fit the job well.
- https://www.dataquest.io/blog/how-to-get-a-data-science-job/
Feel free to email me if you want to chat more about data science careers, etc (srini at dataquest.io)
I started out as a math major, then I transitioned to a double major math AND stats because stats is more applicable. I struggled for a year looking for work (also US immigration sucks, even for Canadians) and ended up in a master degree program in Industrial Engineering. I chose engineering specifically for the word "engineering". I was lucky that I discovered the field of Industrial Engineering at that university otherwise I was headed for a BS in Mechanical.
Continuing formal math education will further limit the kind of jobs you can apply, increasing the level of competition. Even the BS in Math left me with the feeling people saw me as over qualified, lacking regular skills.
Math is super great by the way, just not the idea of being a "mathematician". It (unfairly) causes alienation of your true potential.
You (OP) may take for granted the way that your math education shaped your brain to think about things. Don't. This mode of thinking is one of your biggest assets that employers are after.
If anyone has advice on how I can help our students (at all levels -- undergrad and grad) get jobs in any of these industries, I would be grateful to listen!
That would also apply to anyone wanting to get into those fields. I’d argue a solid math background puts them in a strong place to specialize.
I’ve also always wondered to what extent math would be useful in law school.
I have a software engineering degree (not CS) first, and then put myself through law school part time while working as a programmer, so I have some insight in this. In short, it's completely useless; even programming skills are useless. There are some highly specific (patent) positions where having a technical background combined with law 'pays off'; although if you look at the opportunity cost and the premium you're paid, it's not all that great (and writing patents is incredibly tedious; for litigation, tech skills count for bupkis).
Even for thinks where you'd think having a technical background would matter (IP lawyer, computer crime/forensics legal consultant, cybercrime DA), your tech knowledge is useless. The vast majority of the work there is legal, and the little bit of tech needed is easily explained by a consultant with no knowledge of the legal aspects.
I know (of) quite a few tech/law combo grads (it's actually not all that uncommon), and very few of them manage to synergistically apply both in a career. Those that do, do so because of a third (communication/self-marketing) skill; more than having any technology background.
So, in short: law degree is fun, but don't count on it being anything but a hobby (when combined with tech career).
(oh, I also know a mathematician who's now teaching at a law faculty; he does research on computational ethics and philosophy, that sort of thing. Intellectually very interesting, but 0 real world applicability - in other words, bound to academia - for better or for worse).
I appreciated your insight. My thoughts were formed with much less knowledge.
Caveats: I think you need to be a US citizen or permanent resident and you have to find a mentor willing to take you. This shouldn't be impossible though, since your salary will be paid by the grant so it's not a financial burden and many fields need people on the math/statistics side of things. Look for biostats researchers and contact them even if they're not hiring since again the grant pays the salary they might take someone even if they aren't looking for someone. The application is open three or four times a year, next one in February. I think the October round better matches the typical graduate' time frame, which means students should plan this at least a year before graduating.
As someone going through this process right now, thanks for thinking of your students' careers! I wish more math departments encouraged options outside of pure math and finance. There's definite demand but a difficulty finding the appropriate positions for us.
A lot of math undergrads won't take CS classes, won't learn to program, bc they think it is somehow inferior.
source: BS/MS in applied math and didnt learn to program until grad school. I know many other math undergrads that had similar views. I now work in c++ all day - writing algorithms for catheter navigation and geometric mapping of the heart (and previously image processing for factory automation, machine learning/data science for predictive maintenance via aircraft sensor data).
It's a real problem. You don't even need a full CS minor to be useful in industry. An intro programming class, data structures, 1 or 2 algorithms classes. An OS class if you want to be more thorough. In some students it's an attitude problem, in others it's just unfortunate lack of awareness.
I faced a _lot_ of bias when getting into the industry because people didn't want to train me to program or thought I'd be too weak of a software engineer, etc... and I believe having internships/co-ops would have massively helped rectify that and also have given me a network of jobs to work at.
And to OP's question, look into simulation. There's a lot I learned on the job, but having basic programming abilities will go a long way. A lot of engineers are weak at programming compared to what I see in CS.
I graduated in 1984, though, so this may not be very applicable to the current situation...
So when I applied to jobs with my applied math degree and 2 years of grad computing experience - but no industry experience - as a software engineer - I got lots of sorry no experience, we can't train you, etc... etc...
I eventually got a job as a support engineer and have kicked around a lot of roles including data scientist and software engineer.
I'd say if you don't have actual programming experience they'd probably see you pretty similarly to me. That being said if you're applying to a giant corporation and don't have some sort of standout crazy resume OR have an internal referral I think you're basically lost in the noise. Applying to smaller startups may get you a second look.
However, now there are things like triplebyte where if you pass their interview you can get an onsite to a lot of companies regardless of your background - which is pretty neat.
Mostly C++ and python. Though I know Matlab too.
I'm not looking for a job, per say, but it is always good to know what I can get. But you would suggest a head hunter? I do have experience now.