I'm torn on this subject. I truly believe in a social network. But it drives me nuts to see people milking it.
My neighbor in one side of me is in a wheelchair from an injury from an altercation years ago. His previous profession would easily accommodate a wheelchair. But he's an asshole and does not participate in society. So he's on disabiluty.
My neighbor in the other side had a sit down sales job before having a stroke at a young age. Now he has to walk with a cane and says he can't concentrate and is tired. So he can't work. But he's fit enough to go out nearly every night until 3am partying and can concentrate enough to play poker 5 nights a week. He's an asshole too.
Then I see the poor single mom who's busting her butt to make ends meet and going to school but she never gets a paid sick day.
This seems like an allocation disconnect problem in the system to me.
Disclaimer: I only scanned the article, I'm coming back to it when I get more time. I'm largely just responding to this comment right now.
Yeah... I'm very torn too...
My dad and all his six brothers and sisters, save for one, are on disability, and have been for years. Their disability, without exception, is laziness and being self entitled brats. I'm not saying they don't have medical issues, they do, but don't we all at some point? I have zero sympathy for such people. I mean, I'm pretty sickly as I mentioned in another post, I could milk it and almost certainly get disability, but I am employed. I am employed because I want to be self sufficient. I've been on short term disability in the past, I worked to get myself back into the workforce. It's just like any other setback or road block in life, you work through it and move on. If I were lazy I'd say "I can't" while on short term disability and eventually apply for long term disability or social security like my shitty family.
My aunt's and uncles can do more than me half the time. My dad is ridiculous when he talks about how difficult it was to work, he basically says, "oh God, it's so difficult.. they want me to show up and do work, and I don't want to. I'm traumatized! Pity me!"
Same as TFA, when I worked at BK we would schedule extra people on the first of the month and it would usually be unusually busy. Why? That's when social security checks come in.
I am extremely sympathetic though to the people who truly have problems working... I feel like we, as a society, should take care of such people. But separating them from the lazy malingerers seems almost impossible sometimes.
I also believe anyone who got injured in the military absolutely deserves disability.
Or maybe my personal biases are coming through from having such a shitty and abusive family. Maybe I'm truly not fit to decide who "deserves" disability?
I guess this post turned out to be somewhat of a rant...
I'm with you both; my mom has the same unspecified affliction. I'd never seen her work, and she definitely seems incapable of it in the lazy/brat sense, at least back when we were younger.
It did make me a little torn, because I do think we should take care of people who need it, but efforts to determine/enforce 'neediness' usually just seem to make it more difficult for people to acquire help. However, that 'help' (in this case SSI) is such a miniscule bit of money anyway that I really can't be bothered with fussing over whether they 'deserve' it or not. Let whoever wants it take it, IMO.
I think "miniscule bit of money" is only looking at the individual case but on a macro scale it's incredible siginficant and "ruins" things...
I think you're, at the heart of it, really arguing for basic income which,I admit would (probably) be more "fair" than what we have now. Honestly, I don't think I can argue against BI too much.
I think what disgusts me most is that while I was a child/teen my dad collected SSDI in my name, as a dependent, while not doing jack shit to care for me in any sense of the word. It was an extra $100 a month or something. For him to claim he needs that money to "support" me is a gross injustice of the world and makes me physically ill to think about. The SSA should at least make sure that my dad was contributing $100 a month to my care - he absolutely was not. He would have kicked me out and made me sleep on the street if my mom didn't prevent it.
Again, I think I'm probably projecting rather than adding to the conversation as an "average" person....
No, the SSA shouldn't be doing anything of the sort. That would be a ludicrous expansion of their role and a waste of money. If you want to be mad at the government that your childhood was shit then at least complain about child welfare departments or something more relevant than you not thinking your dad spent his ssdi check directly on you.
Not only does it make it more difficult for people who are supposed to benefit, it is literally spending money that should be helping people on preventing them from receiving that help.
I am extremely interested in hearing how these people you mention are on disability. My mother spent four years trying to get disability, and suffered from a degenerative spinal issue that culminated in spinal reconstructive surgery a year before she died this July at 59 (I will be forever grateful for the ACA affording her some level of care in her last years).
Without being rude, when someone says someone else is on disability and doesn’t believe they meet the qualifications, I don’t believe them. I have seen what is required to justify your disability (40% of all disability claims are denied).
Every social safety net will have freeloaders on the system. This is preferred over people in desperate need not getting the support they require.
This is how we are measured as a civilization, how we treat the weakest members (with apologies to Ghandi).
If you work hard enough you'll eventually get it, especially if you have a lawyer. It took all of them years and appeals to get approved. If you are persistent enough you'll get approved eventually.
Eventually....
It's like that episode of Seinfeld where George worked to stay on unemployment. It was basically their life goal was to become "disabled." If you dedicate your life to being disabled... It will happen if it's literally your job... My fucking uncle worked for, I don't know how many years to become disabled.... If he put half that effort into being employed....
It doesn't surprise me that people who are terminal aren't able to benefit... The system is rigged.
Some of them, like my aunt, take injuries and claim they've never recovered from them. Even though they have. Who's going to argue with that? How can you prove anything?
My dad is surprisingly "not disabled" when he feels like it.
Once you get into "disabled" territory, you become untouchable...
You can not believe me all you want,I do not give two shits. I know what I have experienced, I don't personally care if you believe me, I don't care. I know for a fact my dad and his siblings are shithead. That I will know for life and I can't avoid.
“Every social safety net will have freeloaders on the system. This is preferred over people in desperate need not getting the support they require.”
Let the cheaters cheat; cheaters gun cheat. It’s not going to be perfect, but we should certainly be be obligated to help those that truly need it. We’re the wealthiest society in the history of the world.
We can afford it, esepcially if we can do a better job weeding out some of the people taking advantage.
I meant how to make the system better especially for those that's truely in need.
Those that really need the assistance are often forced to make choices between food and medicine. Many mental illnesses are undiagnosed. Addicts are stuck in an endless cycle.
I believe a social safety net is important and I don't see how to avoid freeloaders, but in my community I know a LOT of people who have gotten on disability completely on purpose and if you talked to them for 10 minutes they would tell you they did it on purpose. Not all states have the same qualifications to get on disability.
"Maybe I'm truly not fit to decide who "deserves" disability"
Let's not mince words and rephrase it:
"Maybe I'm truly not fit to decide whether my own income should be reallocated to other people via heavier taxation".
You are indeed fucking fit to decide whether some government is going to pluck away your value via taxes. And you should have a strong opinion about that.
I don’t know why this was voted down. It sound cynical and potentially judgmental, but I did t read it that way.
There are fewer and fewer jobs available for people without much education, and in the US at least also very little practical assistance. In such a situation going onto disability is a rational decision.
There are jerks who milk the system, sure. But I think the situation described by the article is one where there is no social safety net for the unlucky.
The US seems to have a punitive view of social assistance. This is an important reason why we should use robots to replace middle class jobs ASAP. If the only jobs replaced are physical labor, ced people will be left to rot. If the jobs replaced are lawyers and oncologists, governments will act.
Love where your head's at. I feel like we still have this perspective carried over from the 60s when companies took care of and trained their employees and bettered their career paths, that a job is great
But modern jobs are exploitative and brutal.
The way things are going for me, I might end up in this situation. I've been dealing with kidney failure the past few years. Came all unnoticed due to damage done by an autoimmune disease.
I used to have a greater engineering career back then running multiple successful projects, leading teams, doing technical work. I still continue to work of course but now have to focus on other priorities. Most people at work don't know it but I'm on PD dialysis every day of the week. 8 hours during sleep and 4 hours in the evening. The first thing I do when I return form work. Most people wouldn't even realize it except maybe a little "flab" in the belly due to pumping 8L of dialysis fluid through it every night.
These days I have to focus on maintaining health insurance through job stability expecially with the GOP trying to kill the ACA. The most important factor to a job right now is flexibility and travel time. I can't really travel for business trips these days due to treatment schedules.
I've been fairly lucky up to now because I know my employers for a long time and they have been flexible but I wonder how I will manage to get an accommodating job in the future. I have a friend you recently joined Google. I don't think I could ever join a high profile company in my present situation. The job pressure and treatment schedules don't mesh well.
Knowing Google's culture, if you have a serious medical condition like this, you can absolutely be moved to a lower pressure, longer project timeline sort of team. Hell I have a friend who got moved to a lower pressure team at JP Morgan IBD of all places, when she got ill.
If they get rid of you because you "can't be in a team with time pressure", then they're opening themselves up to a massive lawsuit, which they will never risk.
And obviously asking you about your medical condition during the interview process is illegal. I would encourage you to look at Google if it's a place you'd be interested in joining. Get the offer. Sign the contract. Start work. Get moved.
Throwaway for obvious reasons. I'm not in the US but I can relate. I am 27 and was recently diagnosed with spondyloarthritis, an autoimmune disease which attacks your articulations. It has changed my pain scale tenfold or worse. I have a variat where I suffer everyday and in most articulations, some days are worse.
It feels unfair because everything was fine for me before and I'm young. I hide it : I'm a founder of a (somewhat) rising startup and have to just deal with it. Of course some days you can't hide it.
My empathy has decreased towards people suffering. Sometimes I feel like I suffer more than most sufferers. I know it's not true and pain is very personal and comes in many ways. I just feel this and I try to fight those feelings.
But when I here "pain normies" complain all the time about little back pains and tiny health issues I need to take a break ;)
I might write a piece about this soon. I need it. The only upside is that I'm laser focused on my work & mission now, and I work very hard but it's very hard to suffer all the time.
So my point is... don't be too quick to dismiss people's pain. But don't be too quick to acknowledge it either. Some people hide pain very well. You can't see 90% of disabilities.
My best friend in high school did the exact same thing. He failed out of juco from partying and playing pranks. His first job at the grocery store lasted 2 months at which point he supposedly fell holding a few crates of milk and hurt his back. he milked that for about 10 years (pun not intended).
I grew up in the midwest and saw this sort of thing everywhere all my life. It is the primary reason i voted for Trump, and against the party that enables these people. It is why I've read everything Ayn Rand wrote - most of it twice. It's ironic as every last bit of my upbringing, education, profession, and political perspective, and disdain for religion otherwise leans liberal.
These people are poisoning our society. They are the apples that rot the entire barrel that is our one and only society. This is malignant, not benign.
Moreover, it is cruel in the deepest sense. When the government provides these people's income, it denies them the happiness that can only be achieved through persevering through adversity and survival in an environment that provides no guarantees .
Someone wrote that they felt torn due to the empathy felt for the hardworking single mother who doesn't get a day off. The thing is that this person doesn't need empathy - not because she doesn't deserve it - but because she's successful in the sense that she does survive in the face of doubt and adversity. She is happy, and therefore compels respect, not pity. There is no denying this either - love for one's children - especially that of a mother, is absolute. Any person that has this, has happiness in the deepest sense.
And that is what I find wrong with the modern age in America, we are driven by empathy and therefore tolerate anything to celebrate it and prove our virtue, whereas if anything we dismiss the tenacity that justifies respect; explaining away its virtues as white privilege, greed, and so on.
Maybe people will finally start coming to realize that poor quality food, worsening soil and water systems, increasing chemical exposures in daily life, having kids at a later age, etc are causing problems you cant fix and at younger ages than ever. Society is culling itself.
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[ 4.1 ms ] story [ 78.1 ms ] threadMy neighbor in one side of me is in a wheelchair from an injury from an altercation years ago. His previous profession would easily accommodate a wheelchair. But he's an asshole and does not participate in society. So he's on disabiluty.
My neighbor in the other side had a sit down sales job before having a stroke at a young age. Now he has to walk with a cane and says he can't concentrate and is tired. So he can't work. But he's fit enough to go out nearly every night until 3am partying and can concentrate enough to play poker 5 nights a week. He's an asshole too.
Then I see the poor single mom who's busting her butt to make ends meet and going to school but she never gets a paid sick day.
This seems like an allocation disconnect problem in the system to me.
Yeah... I'm very torn too...
My dad and all his six brothers and sisters, save for one, are on disability, and have been for years. Their disability, without exception, is laziness and being self entitled brats. I'm not saying they don't have medical issues, they do, but don't we all at some point? I have zero sympathy for such people. I mean, I'm pretty sickly as I mentioned in another post, I could milk it and almost certainly get disability, but I am employed. I am employed because I want to be self sufficient. I've been on short term disability in the past, I worked to get myself back into the workforce. It's just like any other setback or road block in life, you work through it and move on. If I were lazy I'd say "I can't" while on short term disability and eventually apply for long term disability or social security like my shitty family.
My aunt's and uncles can do more than me half the time. My dad is ridiculous when he talks about how difficult it was to work, he basically says, "oh God, it's so difficult.. they want me to show up and do work, and I don't want to. I'm traumatized! Pity me!"
Same as TFA, when I worked at BK we would schedule extra people on the first of the month and it would usually be unusually busy. Why? That's when social security checks come in.
I am extremely sympathetic though to the people who truly have problems working... I feel like we, as a society, should take care of such people. But separating them from the lazy malingerers seems almost impossible sometimes.
I also believe anyone who got injured in the military absolutely deserves disability.
Or maybe my personal biases are coming through from having such a shitty and abusive family. Maybe I'm truly not fit to decide who "deserves" disability?
I guess this post turned out to be somewhat of a rant...
It did make me a little torn, because I do think we should take care of people who need it, but efforts to determine/enforce 'neediness' usually just seem to make it more difficult for people to acquire help. However, that 'help' (in this case SSI) is such a miniscule bit of money anyway that I really can't be bothered with fussing over whether they 'deserve' it or not. Let whoever wants it take it, IMO.
I think you're, at the heart of it, really arguing for basic income which,I admit would (probably) be more "fair" than what we have now. Honestly, I don't think I can argue against BI too much.
I think what disgusts me most is that while I was a child/teen my dad collected SSDI in my name, as a dependent, while not doing jack shit to care for me in any sense of the word. It was an extra $100 a month or something. For him to claim he needs that money to "support" me is a gross injustice of the world and makes me physically ill to think about. The SSA should at least make sure that my dad was contributing $100 a month to my care - he absolutely was not. He would have kicked me out and made me sleep on the street if my mom didn't prevent it.
Again, I think I'm probably projecting rather than adding to the conversation as an "average" person....
The article mentions $260B yearly cost. That’s about $2k in taxes per working adult.
Without being rude, when someone says someone else is on disability and doesn’t believe they meet the qualifications, I don’t believe them. I have seen what is required to justify your disability (40% of all disability claims are denied).
Every social safety net will have freeloaders on the system. This is preferred over people in desperate need not getting the support they require.
This is how we are measured as a civilization, how we treat the weakest members (with apologies to Ghandi).
If you work hard enough you'll eventually get it, especially if you have a lawyer. It took all of them years and appeals to get approved. If you are persistent enough you'll get approved eventually.
Eventually....
It's like that episode of Seinfeld where George worked to stay on unemployment. It was basically their life goal was to become "disabled." If you dedicate your life to being disabled... It will happen if it's literally your job... My fucking uncle worked for, I don't know how many years to become disabled.... If he put half that effort into being employed....
It doesn't surprise me that people who are terminal aren't able to benefit... The system is rigged.
Some of them, like my aunt, take injuries and claim they've never recovered from them. Even though they have. Who's going to argue with that? How can you prove anything?
My dad is surprisingly "not disabled" when he feels like it.
Once you get into "disabled" territory, you become untouchable...
You can not believe me all you want,I do not give two shits. I know what I have experienced, I don't personally care if you believe me, I don't care. I know for a fact my dad and his siblings are shithead. That I will know for life and I can't avoid.
I agree and accept that cost. But at the same time so much of the "support" is ineffective. I wish I had a better solution.
Maybe someone will have a good idea here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16002063
“Every social safety net will have freeloaders on the system. This is preferred over people in desperate need not getting the support they require.”
Let the cheaters cheat; cheaters gun cheat. It’s not going to be perfect, but we should certainly be be obligated to help those that truly need it. We’re the wealthiest society in the history of the world. We can afford it, esepcially if we can do a better job weeding out some of the people taking advantage.
Those that really need the assistance are often forced to make choices between food and medicine. Many mental illnesses are undiagnosed. Addicts are stuck in an endless cycle.
Let's not mince words and rephrase it:
"Maybe I'm truly not fit to decide whether my own income should be reallocated to other people via heavier taxation".
You are indeed fucking fit to decide whether some government is going to pluck away your value via taxes. And you should have a strong opinion about that.
There's no upside to entering the working world so why not just declare disability.
There are fewer and fewer jobs available for people without much education, and in the US at least also very little practical assistance. In such a situation going onto disability is a rational decision.
There are jerks who milk the system, sure. But I think the situation described by the article is one where there is no social safety net for the unlucky.
The US seems to have a punitive view of social assistance. This is an important reason why we should use robots to replace middle class jobs ASAP. If the only jobs replaced are physical labor, ced people will be left to rot. If the jobs replaced are lawyers and oncologists, governments will act.
We deff need automation as fast as possible.
I used to have a greater engineering career back then running multiple successful projects, leading teams, doing technical work. I still continue to work of course but now have to focus on other priorities. Most people at work don't know it but I'm on PD dialysis every day of the week. 8 hours during sleep and 4 hours in the evening. The first thing I do when I return form work. Most people wouldn't even realize it except maybe a little "flab" in the belly due to pumping 8L of dialysis fluid through it every night.
These days I have to focus on maintaining health insurance through job stability expecially with the GOP trying to kill the ACA. The most important factor to a job right now is flexibility and travel time. I can't really travel for business trips these days due to treatment schedules.
I've been fairly lucky up to now because I know my employers for a long time and they have been flexible but I wonder how I will manage to get an accommodating job in the future. I have a friend you recently joined Google. I don't think I could ever join a high profile company in my present situation. The job pressure and treatment schedules don't mesh well.
If they get rid of you because you "can't be in a team with time pressure", then they're opening themselves up to a massive lawsuit, which they will never risk.
And obviously asking you about your medical condition during the interview process is illegal. I would encourage you to look at Google if it's a place you'd be interested in joining. Get the offer. Sign the contract. Start work. Get moved.
It feels unfair because everything was fine for me before and I'm young. I hide it : I'm a founder of a (somewhat) rising startup and have to just deal with it. Of course some days you can't hide it.
My empathy has decreased towards people suffering. Sometimes I feel like I suffer more than most sufferers. I know it's not true and pain is very personal and comes in many ways. I just feel this and I try to fight those feelings.
But when I here "pain normies" complain all the time about little back pains and tiny health issues I need to take a break ;)
I might write a piece about this soon. I need it. The only upside is that I'm laser focused on my work & mission now, and I work very hard but it's very hard to suffer all the time.
So my point is... don't be too quick to dismiss people's pain. But don't be too quick to acknowledge it either. Some people hide pain very well. You can't see 90% of disabilities.
I grew up in the midwest and saw this sort of thing everywhere all my life. It is the primary reason i voted for Trump, and against the party that enables these people. It is why I've read everything Ayn Rand wrote - most of it twice. It's ironic as every last bit of my upbringing, education, profession, and political perspective, and disdain for religion otherwise leans liberal.
These people are poisoning our society. They are the apples that rot the entire barrel that is our one and only society. This is malignant, not benign.
Moreover, it is cruel in the deepest sense. When the government provides these people's income, it denies them the happiness that can only be achieved through persevering through adversity and survival in an environment that provides no guarantees .
Someone wrote that they felt torn due to the empathy felt for the hardworking single mother who doesn't get a day off. The thing is that this person doesn't need empathy - not because she doesn't deserve it - but because she's successful in the sense that she does survive in the face of doubt and adversity. She is happy, and therefore compels respect, not pity. There is no denying this either - love for one's children - especially that of a mother, is absolute. Any person that has this, has happiness in the deepest sense.
And that is what I find wrong with the modern age in America, we are driven by empathy and therefore tolerate anything to celebrate it and prove our virtue, whereas if anything we dismiss the tenacity that justifies respect; explaining away its virtues as white privilege, greed, and so on.