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What if capitalism is obsolete?

15 points by tabtab ↗ HN
It seems increasingly that if you are not an "elite" employee, region, nation, age-range, industry, etc., then you get left behind. Inequality is increasing and appears to be spreading to more factors.

Globalism and automation probably have something to do with it. It may just be a blip of history, OR what if this trend grows extreme? Society would be on a hair-trigger to collapse upon the next big recession.

26 comments

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godzillabrennus
It seems clear to many that pure capitalism is just the least terrible of systems we have used to build societies. Experimenting with new forms of societies leads to unimaginable death and destruction. Not the kind of thing that most people want today. Question is, at what point do people feel so left behind by the system that they call for revolution.
Top19
John Cabot Lodge used to say “the purpose of the UN isn’t to take you to heaven, it’s to prevent us all from going to hell”. Feel the same way about capitalism. I have no idea why it works, many other thing seem like they should work 10x better, but it never does and millions die.

Capitalism comes in waves too. Usually it’s really good for while, then declines, and then is reformed into another good period before it declines again and so on.

tomohawk
It's better than the alternatives, such as this alternative:

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/venezuelans-scramble-survive-merch...

tabtab
The Venezuelan mistake was putting all their economic eggs in the oil basket. That's not a capitalism-vs-socialism issue since capitalists have done similar (rust belt). Further, there are various mixes of socialism and capitalism that can be implemented: it doesn't have to be all one or the other.
tomohawk
Um. No. The mistake was putting a dictator in charge, who then nationalized everything and tried to create a centrally directed economy.
geezerjay
> The Venezuelan mistake was putting all their economic eggs in the oil basket.

Tell that to all the small businesses that were nationalized just because the communist regime felt like it, and then forced all small business owners into poverty and hunger.

djinnandtonic
Not to mention record-setting levels of corruption. No system works if people are actively looting it
jstewartmobile
Developing countries are poor examples/counterexamples for any kind of political/economic arrangement. They are so vulnerable to external interference (CIA, KGB, Mossad, etc.).
fabrice1
Many forget History. Especially since the fall of Berlin's Wall, capitalism went wild. The threat of communism disappeared. Beware the backlash. Capitalism is I believe the best way to move forward. We need to develop a more human capitalism. Profit must be share. Not just with investors, shareholders. We need to stop "maximization" profits by squeezing wages...lets aim to reasonable profits
tabtab
"Communism" and "capitalism" are not mutually exclusive. As I interpret the terms as usually used today, communism is mostly a political system while capitalism is an economic system. As China and Singapore show, (mostly) capitalism and totalitarianism can exist in the same country. Similarly, "democracy" and "capitalism" can be independent things. But I realize the terms are not so clear cut: history shuffled things since they were coined.
fabrice1
Yes today "Communism" and "capitalism" are not mutually exclusive. I was referring of the general understanding of communisn as an economic and political system. Indeed I believe-correct me if I'm wrong- China gradually buried the economic side in the early eighties with Deng Xioping. Capitalism can be a hard place when you are left behind but is the best system coupled with democracy and freedom of speech. My idea of human capitalism is to share profits with those left behind. Imagine if all businesses shared their profits. Utopic? I don't think so. We just need to push for it. I myself was homeless, rough sleeping before getting back on track. I now prepare to launch a start-up with the idea of sharing profits with those left behind. Radically lifting homeless families out of the streets in India. That what I call human capitalism
tabtab
Do you mean voluntarily sharing? The biggest problem I see with that is that during recessions, the ratio of need to "sharers" goes way up.
fabrice1
Yes voluntarily sharing (10%) and why not "obligatory sharing" by law (although I'm not a partisan of it right now)but if this idea of businesses sharing with those left behind spread it could forced businesses to share by public pressure. CSR is too often a joke, a token contribution to give the illusion they care. If the ratio of need to "sharers" goes up maybe the sharing may increase. But it is a whole new culture that would have to be nurture. Most of investors, shareholders are let's say a bit selfish. But if we can convince them it is in their self-interest to learn to share it may work. History is a constant reminder that when people are too unhappy the "elite" is in trouble. People need hope they can move up the social ladder.
atmosx
A human capitalism? Brecht would have a laugh or two :-)
fabrice1
"Washington’s law (1792), the first American law on profit sharing, said that the tax credits would be divided 5/8 to the crew and 3/8 to the owners, recognizing that both workers and shareholders play an important role in building up an industry. Furthermore, the law said that the ship owners could only benefit from the tax credits if they honored the broad-based profit sharing on profits on the entire catch that was common in this industry for well over a century. When Jefferson asked the largest ship owner in Philadelphia about the practice, he said that the ships with profit sharing were more productive and more efficient than the ships with simply fixed wages." I would call it human capitalism making sense economically http://fortune.com/2014/04/17/southwest-airlines-profit-shar...
marenkay
> The threat of communism disappeared

And the thought that capitalism might be a threat disappeared too. Though up to this point it ain't proven that either capitalism or communism is better. So far it looks like both have just fallen prey to the inert greed of human beings.

jstewartmobile
I think a lot of the pathology comes from having rootless multinational corporations that are largely unaccountable to neither man nor government.

Quigley once wrote that minting corporations with unlimited lifetimes and unlimited scopes of operation--from a historical perspective--is a completely new mistake.

The Intercept had this story a while back where Kerr-McGee was caught dumping creosote into the ground for decades, then the EPA goes and prosecutes the lab owner who blew the whistle. Kerr-McGee gets a fine. Lab owner who blew the whistle gets house arrest.

https://theintercept.com/2016/11/25/did-the-epa-prosecute-an...

BjoernKW
> if you are not an "elite" employee, region, nation, age-range, industry, etc., then you get left behind

Do you? While it's technically correct that inequality is increasing the baseline level is increasing, too.

So, while an average person's wealth in comparison to the richest person's perhaps has decreased by orders of magnitude in recent decades at the same time globalization and capitalism not only helped with massively reducing poverty but also with increasing the number of people who - while not exactly rich - make a decent living.

They might be relatively poorer than their 1970s counterparts when compared with the richest people of their respective time periods but in absolute numbers or compared with the economy as a whole they're much better off.

[dead] corporateslave3
Capitalism isnt collapsing, it increased the standard of living far beyond what the world has ever seen. Inequality is rising and so is the quality of water and electricity in Africa. Stop spreading this misinformation, capitalism has begun the ascendence from slavery and rigid classism.
SirLJ
The Capitalism is the corner stone of the Democracy.

So it is up to you to work hard and be the best in your field...

tobylane
Can you expand on the first line?
kleer001
How do you distribute power with equanimity and keep it that way? I think it's impossible with any sort of inheritance. And with legions of spoiled idiots you get an acceleration of entropy, more randomness to distribute said power from the perfect peaceful normal distribution into a power law. And then you gotta redistribute it all over again.

Yes, knowing who your child is is holding back the human race from a world of perfect equality.

I'm not sure I believe that, or even think there's a way to get there from where we are now. It's truly a bizarre idea. It's just the easiest way I can see to solve the problem as stated.

crispytx
That's actually the idea behind the "death tax." It's meant to prevent dynastic family wealth from accumulating.
crispytx
30 year old millennial here replying from my parent's basement. I think the future is going to be a lot better than the present, we just need to fix some stuff.

TODO:

1) We need low cost housing. Mobile home parks with $10,000 RVs for rent @ $200 / month. Here in Texas the lowest cost housing options are $600 - $700 a month. With radically cheaper housing it will be much easier to survive working the types of shitty jobs that our economy is currently producing.

2) Large companies need to start raising more capital on the public stock markets. Economic growth comes from people investing money to produce MORE goods and services than were previously produced. However, most of our retirement money does not go towards this purpose. The overwhelming majority of retirement funds go toward purchasing shares of stock on the secondary market which does not contribute to producing MORE goods and services at all.

3) We need to quit allowing healthcare companies to fleece our healthcare system. There's no good reason for the United States to spend twice per capita what Canada spends for healthcare.

twobyfour
We're not there yet.

When we reach a level of automation where there aren't enough people to sell goods and services to because there aren't enough jobs (and where conversely, there aren't enough jobs to realistically expect a given person to use wages to pay for necessities like food, housing, and clothing), we'll have reached a stage where capitalism is no longer viable as a way to generate or distribute value.

We're on that path, and some of the cracks are beginning to show. But capitalism isn't obsolete. If anything, it's reaching a crescendo. Whether the current form is a good thing for the vast majority of the world's population is open to debate. But that has nothing to do with obsolescence.

SamReidHughes
Capitalism won't be obsolete until we've cured death and colonized two other star systems. Then we've got to prepare for the threat of alien conquest.