Hmmm...I see an allegation of rape, which is a serious criminal allegation. This is not for a ‘community’ or conference organizers to adjudicate, we have the criminal justice system for this: the police, the courts etc.
Conversely, a false accusation is also a serious crime. This is simply not a matter to be resolved in public by defamation. Leave it to the courts.
Chelsea addressed this in her post if you had read it.
"I have worked with legal counsel throughout this entire process. I have strongly considered the idea of seeking criminal charges in Germany against Jacob, but initiating lengthy legal proceedings in another country which I am neither a citizen nor a resident is a significant barrier for me. That said, I would gladly discuss this with any interested German authority and would be willing to testify in any court of law about this crime without hesitation."
Rape is serious crime. It is therefore an ‘Offizialdelikt’, which means that it must be prosecuted if the Staatsanwaltschaft knows about it, and once they know about it, it becomes their case.
Not pursuing this through the criminal justice system because you can’t be bothered, but instead resorting to public defamation instead is at best fishy, because in the context of an Offizialdelikt, the distinction she draws doesn’t make sense.
To clarify (if necessary), its the distinction between criminal vs civil case. Rape is prosecuted by the state on the initiate of the state. The victim do not "initiating lengthy legal proceedings", they only report the crime to the police and the dedicated prosecutor for sexual violence crime is responsible to take it from there.
A victim of such crimes have a right to be heard, right to get support, and the right to receive compensation from the accused if they are found guilty. The victim is not required to testify and the accused can still be found guilty.
In some cases it happen that the victim rescinds their version and the prosecutor still continue to go forward with the case. That can't happen in civil cases but it can in criminal.
This public shaming without any police report is really troubling. A woman can totally derange a mans life with zero evidence. Either you feel you have been violated, and then you go to the police, or you keep it to yourself.
This "trial by twitter" that's going on at the moment is disgusting. A person is supposed to be presumed innocent, and then the alleged victim has his or her day in court. With this, the alleged perpetrator is assumed guilty, and he doesn't get a day in court.
She writes:
"I thought Jacob was a friend and engaged in consensual sexual relations with him during those three days. It took me five months to process and understand that Jacob had violated my trust and my body."
I'm sorry, that's not rape. If you give consent, you can't take it back months after the fact. How is a guy supposed to know what will happen months into the future? By this standard, any male can without knowing he has violated a girl suddenly be accused of rape on fucking twitter or medium? WTF?
Hopefully, there's more to her story than that text. What I can read, is that she didn't do a police report, but instead tries to destroy the guys life without any trial, she just decided that he is guilty. From that, it seems like she has put pressure on conferences, his PhD advisors and organizations to destroy him.
She assumes no personal responsibility, it's always the guys fault. She writes that he "pushed his sexual agenda" multiple times. Why the fuck did she not just walk away? That's not victim shaming, since I'm not saying she deserved to be "raped", I'm just saying she put herself in a stupid situation, and taking zero responsibility. Swap the genders of that text, and no-one would bat an eye.
Seriously, at this point, why would any man have anything to do with women, workplace or otherwise? Look at this story, she calls men that are interested in women for "sexual predators"? How is a future husband and wife supposed to meet?
The 'consensual sexual relations with him during those three days' is out of context
The author also states:
> Less than a week later, Jacob raped me in his apartment. Two of Jacob’s friends witnessed the assault, one other participated.
> In June 2016, I published a description of my assault under the pseudonym “River” on jacobappelbaum.net alongside others’ accounts of harassment and assault.
Why ignore some parts of a discussion and only discuss elements that satisfy your predetermined opinion?
You also place the word rape condescendingly in quotes which I interpret as you insisting the definition of the word is important
In that case what is your definition of rape?
In 2012 the doj updated it's, unchanged since 1927, definition of rape: “the penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/blog/updated-definition...
>I'm just saying she put herself in a stupid situation
Can you elaborate? What was the stupid situation? Are you asserting attendance absolves the attacker?
> How is a future husband and wife supposed to meet?
An aside.. I apologise for bringing the levity of Colbert's comedy into this conversation but I feel sometimes comedy can be a tool to reach out to the people who enter a discussion with their minds obstinately predetermined
"I thought Jacob was a friend and engaged in consensual sexual relations with him during those three days. It took me five months to process and understand that Jacob had violated my trust and my body."
You're argument is that the second sentence has nothing to do with the first? However, since I parsed it that way, and you seem to agree that having consensual sex and changing opinion later is not rape, then we agree on that. Happy days.
The definition of rape you bring is retarded. What if a woman captures a male, forces an apple pie back and forth on his penis? By the definition you chose to bring to this discussion, that's not rape. You're pretty much outing yourself as a sexist.
Now, about predetermined opinion, you're actually right. I care a lot about the judicial tradition of presumed innocence. This woman decided to be judge, jury and excutioner... In fact, it's worse than that, she decided to be judge, jury and executioner on a case she can't possible be objective about.
So my predetermined opinion is that: If you have been wronged, go through the judicial system. Just tweeting or blogging doesn't have to pass any bar of truth or supply any evidence. That's just wrong. Very wrong. File a police report or you're full of shit.
Alright, I've tried writing my comment again. I've seen way more uncivil comments on Hacker News not being flagged, but then again, they were probably leftist, like calling Trump a retarded monkey or something.
The flagging I got was pretty much just a hate-click by someone that disagreed with me.
"I thought Jacob was a friend and engaged in consensual sexual relations with him during those three days. It took me five months to process and understand that Jacob had violated my trust and my body."
You're argument is that the second sentence has nothing to do with the first? However, since I parsed it so that the second sentence followed the first, and you seem to agree that having consensual sex and changing opinion later is not rape, then we agree on that.
I'm not fond of the definition of rape you bring. What if a woman captures a male, forces an apple pie back and forth on his penis? By the definition you chose to bring to this discussion, that's not rape.
Now, about predetermined opinion, you're actually right. I care a lot about the judicial tradition of presumed innocence. This woman decided to be judge, jury and excutioner... In fact, it's worse than that, she decided to be judge, jury and executioner on a case she can't possible be objective about.
So my predetermined opinion is that: If you have been wronged, go through the judicial system. Just tweeting or blogging doesn't have to pass any bar of truth or supply any evidence. That's just wrong. Very wrong. File a police report or society should not give credence to your claims.
Or, maybe yes. She seems to be saying that she is not capable of giving consent, meaning that she is the legal equivalent of a child. Odd, but that is apparently where modern day so-called feminism is going. Seems more like anti-feminism to me, quite frankly. Odd.
> She seems to be saying that she is not capable of giving consent, meaning that she is the legal equivalent of a child.
What in this post could lead anyone to that conclusion?
The author established sexual boundaries
> When I became romantically involved with Jacob, I clearly told him that I wasn't interested in group sex, or having sex in front of other people. I told him this more than once, and clearly stated that if we were going to be intimate, I wanted it to be with him in a private setting.
And had those boundaries violated while intoxicated
From a legal perspective, the level of intoxication needed is very high before a person is considered to no longer be able to give new consent. If you are legally drunk, consent for sex is still consent. We (people, citizens, HN community) might find that abhorrent, but it is not rape in the eyes of the legal system.
We could change that and make the ability to give consent go away at the first drink, or at a specific percentage (like drunk driving). The benefits and drawbacks for doing so can be aired under constructive political debate. In this case however, prior established boundaries do not establish if consent can changed once intoxicated but still within the legal range where new consent can be given.
The only avenue for prosecution would be to claim that Jacob intended to make her drunk in order to trick her into sex which she don't consent to. The qualifiers for that is very hard to prove.
Yes, well before the quote you referenced out of context the author stated:
> Less than a week later, Jacob raped me in his apartment. Two of Jacob’s friends witnessed the assault, one other participated.
> In June 2016, I published a description of my assault under the pseudonym “River” on jacobappelbaum.net alongside others’ accounts of harassment and assault.
"I thought Jacob was a friend and engaged in consensual sexual relations with him during those three days. It took me five months to process and understand that Jacob had violated my trust and my body. It is common for victims of rape to take months, if not years, to come to terms with this, particularly if the abuser is one in a position of trust to them."
What the actual fuck? This is insanity. I don't care for a throwaway account, I'm happy to put my name to this comment.
The real insanity is that the majority of comments are clinging to this out of context sentence as discrediting the author especially when it comes well after this earlier statement
> Less than a week later, Jacob raped me in his apartment. Two of Jacob’s friends witnessed the assault, one other participated.
> In June 2016, I published a description of my assault under the pseudonym “River” on jacobappelbaum.net alongside others’ accounts of harassment and assault.
23 comments
[ 106 ms ] story [ 683 ms ] threadI sympathize with those who suffer injustice but if you haven’t sued him and won in court, even that much is unclear.
It is disgusting and deplorable that you are trying to drag unrelated “enablers” into this. Your problems are your own. Nobody owes you anything.
Get a lawyer and sue him. I’d be happy for you if you won.
Conversely, a false accusation is also a serious crime. This is simply not a matter to be resolved in public by defamation. Leave it to the courts.
"I have worked with legal counsel throughout this entire process. I have strongly considered the idea of seeking criminal charges in Germany against Jacob, but initiating lengthy legal proceedings in another country which I am neither a citizen nor a resident is a significant barrier for me. That said, I would gladly discuss this with any interested German authority and would be willing to testify in any court of law about this crime without hesitation."
Rape is serious crime. It is therefore an ‘Offizialdelikt’, which means that it must be prosecuted if the Staatsanwaltschaft knows about it, and once they know about it, it becomes their case.
Not pursuing this through the criminal justice system because you can’t be bothered, but instead resorting to public defamation instead is at best fishy, because in the context of an Offizialdelikt, the distinction she draws doesn’t make sense.
A victim of such crimes have a right to be heard, right to get support, and the right to receive compensation from the accused if they are found guilty. The victim is not required to testify and the accused can still be found guilty.
In some cases it happen that the victim rescinds their version and the prosecutor still continue to go forward with the case. That can't happen in civil cases but it can in criminal.
This "trial by twitter" that's going on at the moment is disgusting. A person is supposed to be presumed innocent, and then the alleged victim has his or her day in court. With this, the alleged perpetrator is assumed guilty, and he doesn't get a day in court.
She writes: "I thought Jacob was a friend and engaged in consensual sexual relations with him during those three days. It took me five months to process and understand that Jacob had violated my trust and my body."
I'm sorry, that's not rape. If you give consent, you can't take it back months after the fact. How is a guy supposed to know what will happen months into the future? By this standard, any male can without knowing he has violated a girl suddenly be accused of rape on fucking twitter or medium? WTF?
Hopefully, there's more to her story than that text. What I can read, is that she didn't do a police report, but instead tries to destroy the guys life without any trial, she just decided that he is guilty. From that, it seems like she has put pressure on conferences, his PhD advisors and organizations to destroy him.
She assumes no personal responsibility, it's always the guys fault. She writes that he "pushed his sexual agenda" multiple times. Why the fuck did she not just walk away? That's not victim shaming, since I'm not saying she deserved to be "raped", I'm just saying she put herself in a stupid situation, and taking zero responsibility. Swap the genders of that text, and no-one would bat an eye.
Seriously, at this point, why would any man have anything to do with women, workplace or otherwise? Look at this story, she calls men that are interested in women for "sexual predators"? How is a future husband and wife supposed to meet?
The author also states:
> Less than a week later, Jacob raped me in his apartment. Two of Jacob’s friends witnessed the assault, one other participated.
> In June 2016, I published a description of my assault under the pseudonym “River” on jacobappelbaum.net alongside others’ accounts of harassment and assault.
Why ignore some parts of a discussion and only discuss elements that satisfy your predetermined opinion?
You also place the word rape condescendingly in quotes which I interpret as you insisting the definition of the word is important
In that case what is your definition of rape?
In 2012 the doj updated it's, unchanged since 1927, definition of rape: “the penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/blog/updated-definition...
>I'm just saying she put herself in a stupid situation
Can you elaborate? What was the stupid situation? Are you asserting attendance absolves the attacker?
> How is a future husband and wife supposed to meet?
the Geraldo defense: https://youtu.be/-neJp7xRIPk
An aside.. I apologise for bringing the levity of Colbert's comedy into this conversation but I feel sometimes comedy can be a tool to reach out to the people who enter a discussion with their minds obstinately predetermined
You're argument is that the second sentence has nothing to do with the first? However, since I parsed it that way, and you seem to agree that having consensual sex and changing opinion later is not rape, then we agree on that. Happy days.
The definition of rape you bring is retarded. What if a woman captures a male, forces an apple pie back and forth on his penis? By the definition you chose to bring to this discussion, that's not rape. You're pretty much outing yourself as a sexist.
Now, about predetermined opinion, you're actually right. I care a lot about the judicial tradition of presumed innocence. This woman decided to be judge, jury and excutioner... In fact, it's worse than that, she decided to be judge, jury and executioner on a case she can't possible be objective about.
So my predetermined opinion is that: If you have been wronged, go through the judicial system. Just tweeting or blogging doesn't have to pass any bar of truth or supply any evidence. That's just wrong. Very wrong. File a police report or you're full of shit.
The flagging I got was pretty much just a hate-click by someone that disagreed with me.
I'm not fond of the definition of rape you bring. What if a woman captures a male, forces an apple pie back and forth on his penis? By the definition you chose to bring to this discussion, that's not rape.
Now, about predetermined opinion, you're actually right. I care a lot about the judicial tradition of presumed innocence. This woman decided to be judge, jury and excutioner... In fact, it's worse than that, she decided to be judge, jury and executioner on a case she can't possible be objective about.
So my predetermined opinion is that: If you have been wronged, go through the judicial system. Just tweeting or blogging doesn't have to pass any bar of truth or supply any evidence. That's just wrong. Very wrong. File a police report or society should not give credence to your claims.
Anything else to the story?
Or, maybe yes. She seems to be saying that she is not capable of giving consent, meaning that she is the legal equivalent of a child. Odd, but that is apparently where modern day so-called feminism is going. Seems more like anti-feminism to me, quite frankly. Odd.
What in this post could lead anyone to that conclusion?
The author established sexual boundaries
> When I became romantically involved with Jacob, I clearly told him that I wasn't interested in group sex, or having sex in front of other people. I told him this more than once, and clearly stated that if we were going to be intimate, I wanted it to be with him in a private setting.
And had those boundaries violated while intoxicated
We could change that and make the ability to give consent go away at the first drink, or at a specific percentage (like drunk driving). The benefits and drawbacks for doing so can be aired under constructive political debate. In this case however, prior established boundaries do not establish if consent can changed once intoxicated but still within the legal range where new consent can be given.
The only avenue for prosecution would be to claim that Jacob intended to make her drunk in order to trick her into sex which she don't consent to. The qualifiers for that is very hard to prove.
> Less than a week later, Jacob raped me in his apartment. Two of Jacob’s friends witnessed the assault, one other participated.
> In June 2016, I published a description of my assault under the pseudonym “River” on jacobappelbaum.net alongside others’ accounts of harassment and assault.
What the actual fuck? This is insanity. I don't care for a throwaway account, I'm happy to put my name to this comment.
"I no longer want that person to have done that with me half a year ago. I hereby retroactively revoke my consent and bring on the charge or regrape."
> Less than a week later, Jacob raped me in his apartment. Two of Jacob’s friends witnessed the assault, one other participated.
> In June 2016, I published a description of my assault under the pseudonym “River” on jacobappelbaum.net alongside others’ accounts of harassment and assault.