The mis-use of the title "engineer" is insulting to those in that profession that earned that title. All I see are a bunch of computer programmers or computer scientists. No engineers here.
It's funny, as HN is often anti-degree, that this kind of comment is posted here. I don't think someone needs the degree to be called an engineer, especially people who have this much experience in the industry.
Looking at the past experience of the team, and how many positions they've held with "software engineer" in the title, I'd say it's an insult to try to insinuate that they somehow aren't as capable at what they're doing as one with a degree that says they're an engineer.
Can you clarify? I've always thought of engineers as people who solve problems by applying scientific knowledge. These guys seem to fit the bill, but I'm not an engineer (by any definition) so I don't know the terms first-hand.
You're correct. There's a sort of progression in the technical domain - Scientist/Mathematician (creates the knowledge) -> Engineer (applies it) -> End User.
In the computer field, there's an extra step: Computer Scientist -> Software/Hardware Engineer -> Application Developer -> End User. The boundary b/t Engineer and Developer is sometimes vague, though.
TLDR - calling someone building an entire startup from scratch and 'Engineer' is perfectly accurate, since the level of software and hardware customization required will ensure they're doing alot more than just developing apps.
PS - not to belittle anyone's career, I fit squarely in the Developer category myself. As mentioned above, all are necessary pieces of the puzzle.
You might earn the title of Engineer in Training or Professional Engineer or Chartered Engineer or Incorporated Engineer, but "engineer" on its own is generic and applies to anyone who uses "scientific knowledge, mathematics and ingenuity to design and develop solutions for technological systems problems." [1] Programmers can indeed be engineers.
I hold a Masters degree in Computer Engineering and actually did my share of digital logic design, MIPS assembly, programming interrupt handlers, circuits and other things that supposed give you a large e-penis.
I also work as a software engineer. My title is not "computer programmer" (although I certainly program), professional programmers (e.g., "programmer/analyst" in an IT organization of a bank) typically
encode domain-specific business requirements (e.g., "if the job code is 0123 add $0.75 to hourly rate") into internal applications. There's nothing wrong with that, it's a vital role and will soon be a part of most any white collar job.
I'm not a scientist. I don't build mathematical models and validate them experimentally (typically via simulation): it's an important and difficult job, but it's not what I do.
I build software systems by applying mathematical models to solve technical challenges. This is a lot closer to engineering than it is to science or programming in the traditional sense of the word. Of course, I also don't care: you could call me a "a computer janitor" and I would still love what I do.
Not sure what you mean by engineer, but FWIW many of the systems created by the folks you apparently do not consider engineers are more (necessarily) complex, involve more math and empirical testing and are successfully used by orders of magnitude more end users than the products of many of the folks you might consider engineers.
They're computer scientists then. Jesus christ guys, there are a few titles we can use instead of trying to borrow the credibility and prestige of the title "engineer" or "architect"!
There's no prestige or credibility at all in the title "scientist"? I believe you are suffering from tunnel vision, on top of it being that time of the month.
If my degree says "Computer Engineering" and is issued by the engineering school of my university, I'm a software engineer, I don't care what you think.
The odds of this company succeeding are very, very low. It's a typical SF startup - in love with technology and the startup scene, and not the customer.
Your main programming guy is a lisper? You have a "Creative Director"? You are staffing up so quickly? You are bringing a pre-existing clique of people? Erlang? Clojure? Scala?
And with such a small team, you're spreading it out across 3 offices?
This team seems like a technical circle-jerk. You're making a BANK, not a programming language.
I'm sure that they will raise a lot of capital - but I really, really doubt that a real and credible business will come out this. These people understand technology, not banking or people. And the team build-out is reflecting this : it's all about technology and not about people or emotions.
The odds of you being a limp dicked hater that has nothing better to do than malign the sincere efforts of a team of people with more skill in their chodes than you have in your entire family tree are very, very high.
So you're saying the BankSimple team should consist of folks who have built complex systems, designed and implemented interfaces that are engaging to customers, and are knowledgeable about banking, right?
Normally I wouldn't respond to a comment like this, but the value of Hacker News is in fostering discussions about the business of startups. You actually pose some interesting questions, and hopefully I can offer useful answers for people who might come across this thread.
First off, we're not a "SF startup"; we're a distributed team. My co-founders are in Brooklyn. I'm in Portland, along with two other employees. Our engineers are in SF, but quite frankly, they could decide to move to Siberia tomorrow and that'd be just fine.
If you read the blog that my co-founders have been contributing to over the last year, you'll find that they're very much "in love with the customer", and eager to explain how traditional banks have been doing those customers wrong. As was previously noted here on HN, they've been personally emailing anyone and everyone who signs up for more information about our service. The initial product we're launching is based on direct feedback resulting from thousands of those conversations with potential customers. We take their feedback very seriously.
Now, question-by-question:
1. Our Lead Engineer is not exclusively a Lisp programmer. He's worked in a variety of languages, including Common Lisp, Erlang, Ruby, and most recently, C#. I'm a big fan of "polyglot programming", and to me, Dave's ability to work in a variety of languages is, to my mind, an asset and a testament to his skill as a programmer.
2. Yes, we have a Creative Director. Our business involves much more than just a web presence, and we need much more than the average web designer. Banking is a complex economic and social interaction in which design plays a key role at every step. We chose someone not just with web, print, and identity work in his portfolio, but someone with deep industrial design experience. Bill earns the title of Creative Director through years of hard work, service to his industry peers, and a commitment to approaching the problem of designing a better banking experience holistically.
3. We're staffing up fairly conservatively when you consider our mission. This isn't just another build-it-in-a-weekend consumer web business. We're a fraction of the size of the web teams and/or IT teams at most banks.
4. Yes, we're hiring people who've worked effectively together. You'll find many posts from VCs and entrepreneurs about the value of "putting the band back together". I'm thrilled to have a team who are already in sync with one another.
5. Yes, Dave has worked in Erlang, and we're considering using technologies like Riak that are developed in Erlang. And yes, we plan to work in Scala and Clojure. I'm not sure why this is a question. They're great technologies. They work well. Lots of people are using them, including people in the financial services world who have run into the limitations of legacy technologies. Interesting technologies keep developers happy, motivated, and learning.
6. Yes, we're a distributed team. This should be nothing new in the tech world, particularly in the startup community. Being distributed allows us to work with talented people wherever they may be, keeps our costs down, and forces us to communicate clearly and explicitly amongst one another. It also lets us focus, and avoids the burdens and time-wasters of office water cooler culture.
I don't think you've taken the time to read about our backgrounds. If you had, you'd know that our CFO has spent years in the banking industry; that our CEO has helped managed a multi-billion dollar hedge fund and run an online marketplace for mortgages; that our Creative Director is an industry leader in UX and has focused specifically on issues of humane product and service design. I'm comfortable saying that our team has equal expertise in banking, "people", and technology.
Of course, part of our company's thesis is that a bank run like a tech startup will do better by its customers than a traditional bank or credit union. It seems like you disagree on that point, which is puzzling for this forum, given that so much of the Hac...
BankSimple looks like an awesome idea, and I wish these guys the best of luck in getting it off the ground.
I would immediately move all my accounts to a bank that at least understood what the hell actual customer service looked like, even at a distance. (HINT: it's not a terminally chipper phone jockey who's missing their clue gland)
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[ 7.3 ms ] story [ 79.2 ms ] threadLooking at the past experience of the team, and how many positions they've held with "software engineer" in the title, I'd say it's an insult to try to insinuate that they somehow aren't as capable at what they're doing as one with a degree that says they're an engineer.
Come on, let's be nice.
It's essentially a job requirement if you want to get into some types of engineering fields (electrical, mechanical, civil, etc.)
In the computer field, there's an extra step: Computer Scientist -> Software/Hardware Engineer -> Application Developer -> End User. The boundary b/t Engineer and Developer is sometimes vague, though.
TLDR - calling someone building an entire startup from scratch and 'Engineer' is perfectly accurate, since the level of software and hardware customization required will ensure they're doing alot more than just developing apps.
PS - not to belittle anyone's career, I fit squarely in the Developer category myself. As mentioned above, all are necessary pieces of the puzzle.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer
I also work as a software engineer. My title is not "computer programmer" (although I certainly program), professional programmers (e.g., "programmer/analyst" in an IT organization of a bank) typically encode domain-specific business requirements (e.g., "if the job code is 0123 add $0.75 to hourly rate") into internal applications. There's nothing wrong with that, it's a vital role and will soon be a part of most any white collar job.
I'm not a scientist. I don't build mathematical models and validate them experimentally (typically via simulation): it's an important and difficult job, but it's not what I do.
I build software systems by applying mathematical models to solve technical challenges. This is a lot closer to engineering than it is to science or programming in the traditional sense of the word. Of course, I also don't care: you could call me a "a computer janitor" and I would still love what I do.
Your main programming guy is a lisper? You have a "Creative Director"? You are staffing up so quickly? You are bringing a pre-existing clique of people? Erlang? Clojure? Scala?
And with such a small team, you're spreading it out across 3 offices?
This team seems like a technical circle-jerk. You're making a BANK, not a programming language.
I'm sure that they will raise a lot of capital - but I really, really doubt that a real and credible business will come out this. These people understand technology, not banking or people. And the team build-out is reflecting this : it's all about technology and not about people or emotions.
Right, financial organizations should hire bunch of PHP script kiddies. I am sure that's working well for quant firms like Jane Street.
"You are staffing up so quickly?" vs. "such a small team"
I can't tell if you're trolling or just really inconsistent regarding the reasons for your dislike of them.
> it's all about technology and not about people or emotions.
Yes, hiring a designer definitely shows a complete disregard for the people using the product.
Oh wait...
Normally I wouldn't respond to a comment like this, but the value of Hacker News is in fostering discussions about the business of startups. You actually pose some interesting questions, and hopefully I can offer useful answers for people who might come across this thread.
First off, we're not a "SF startup"; we're a distributed team. My co-founders are in Brooklyn. I'm in Portland, along with two other employees. Our engineers are in SF, but quite frankly, they could decide to move to Siberia tomorrow and that'd be just fine.
If you read the blog that my co-founders have been contributing to over the last year, you'll find that they're very much "in love with the customer", and eager to explain how traditional banks have been doing those customers wrong. As was previously noted here on HN, they've been personally emailing anyone and everyone who signs up for more information about our service. The initial product we're launching is based on direct feedback resulting from thousands of those conversations with potential customers. We take their feedback very seriously.
Now, question-by-question:
1. Our Lead Engineer is not exclusively a Lisp programmer. He's worked in a variety of languages, including Common Lisp, Erlang, Ruby, and most recently, C#. I'm a big fan of "polyglot programming", and to me, Dave's ability to work in a variety of languages is, to my mind, an asset and a testament to his skill as a programmer.
2. Yes, we have a Creative Director. Our business involves much more than just a web presence, and we need much more than the average web designer. Banking is a complex economic and social interaction in which design plays a key role at every step. We chose someone not just with web, print, and identity work in his portfolio, but someone with deep industrial design experience. Bill earns the title of Creative Director through years of hard work, service to his industry peers, and a commitment to approaching the problem of designing a better banking experience holistically.
3. We're staffing up fairly conservatively when you consider our mission. This isn't just another build-it-in-a-weekend consumer web business. We're a fraction of the size of the web teams and/or IT teams at most banks.
4. Yes, we're hiring people who've worked effectively together. You'll find many posts from VCs and entrepreneurs about the value of "putting the band back together". I'm thrilled to have a team who are already in sync with one another.
5. Yes, Dave has worked in Erlang, and we're considering using technologies like Riak that are developed in Erlang. And yes, we plan to work in Scala and Clojure. I'm not sure why this is a question. They're great technologies. They work well. Lots of people are using them, including people in the financial services world who have run into the limitations of legacy technologies. Interesting technologies keep developers happy, motivated, and learning.
6. Yes, we're a distributed team. This should be nothing new in the tech world, particularly in the startup community. Being distributed allows us to work with talented people wherever they may be, keeps our costs down, and forces us to communicate clearly and explicitly amongst one another. It also lets us focus, and avoids the burdens and time-wasters of office water cooler culture.
I don't think you've taken the time to read about our backgrounds. If you had, you'd know that our CFO has spent years in the banking industry; that our CEO has helped managed a multi-billion dollar hedge fund and run an online marketplace for mortgages; that our Creative Director is an industry leader in UX and has focused specifically on issues of humane product and service design. I'm comfortable saying that our team has equal expertise in banking, "people", and technology.
Of course, part of our company's thesis is that a bank run like a tech startup will do better by its customers than a traditional bank or credit union. It seems like you disagree on that point, which is puzzling for this forum, given that so much of the Hac...
Here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1619384 you berate YC for just investing in 'features' and in this thread you berate a bunch of guys that are starting a bank.
I would immediately move all my accounts to a bank that at least understood what the hell actual customer service looked like, even at a distance. (HINT: it's not a terminally chipper phone jockey who's missing their clue gland)