Phelps had been outspoken about his bouts with depression for several years now. (It's too late in the night for me to look for links, but I've personally read 4 or 5 articles regarding this subject)
I find hope in a "heroic" public persona bringing the condition the awareness and communal acknowledgement and support it desperately needs.
What a beautiful and moving story, in my honest opinion. I think this will mean a lot of people that are struggling with these feelings and look up to Michael Phelps. I think this is awesome just like when Tim Cook "officially" came out as gay. For most people it doesn't mean anything, but for those internally struggling with this myriad of conflicting feelings it might be the difference between life and death.
I think we're slowly making progress. I'm even hearing more about mental health in the hip hop world, which has long been a scene where vulnerability is risky.
What's interesting is that apparently no one is safe from depression. Here is Phelps, an accomplished man by any means, saying he was thinking of suicide.
I always think "if I do this, if I do that, it will all get better". It does, for a while. I've changed my surroundings and life several times, used all the drugs, but depression always comes back. You have to just learn to live with it. Weird stuff.
I heard an interview with Bobcat Goldthwait who is a good friend of Robin, and he said that Robin was losing touch with reality at times, probably due to the Lewy Body Dementia.
Stay hyper focused on the present and achieve a flow state with your work. Do this for a prolonged period of time and you can accomplish great things. But, eventually you'll return to reality and find that your main skill to cope with anxiety is impractical in that it requires complete, devoted focus on a task at hand -- essentially putting issues on the back burner but never really taking them off.
It seems like Phelps had his moment of reckoning with his back burner issues in 2012 but he seems to have developed more emotional skills to deal with them. Good for him!
Yep, and for the millions of people who can't statistically be outliers we have to figure out how to live with being normal.
That means living with not being rich or famous or actually being particularly good at anything on a global scale.
Phelps was supported by a society that brought him burritos and clean towels and factory workers who made swimming caps and if he has stuff to teach all of us regular people about depression I think that's good to hear.
Interesting connection to apply flow to this issue and point out drawbacks from not reckoning with the things not focused on. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi wrote about applying flow to much more than one’s main skill, such as personal relationships and free time. The back burner should be maintained using the primary skill of achieving flow state. Sertillanges is another writer who wrote about setting the stage for focused work, and for him maintaining health in basic life areas (diet, exercise, spiritual exercise) was a given to support the main work.
I think it might be due to the fact that after you accomplish something that you really wanted for quite a while and/or that you prepared a lot for, you can end up realizing that while it was a great achievement, you are still the same person with the same habits and issues, and that the achievement doesn't really change anything outside that part of your life, and sometimes there is also no reason to think you can replicate the achievement itself. And then you realize that you are objectively really lucky and can't even properly appreciate and enjoy it, and that brings you down even more.
Even people who never had any great achievements can experience it with sex: sometimes you are alone for a while, and think how amazing it would be to have sex with someone, thinking about all sorts of happy feelings you'd have and how you would be happier overall and so on. Then you have a one night stand, and it's good, but you realize it hasn't really changed anything, that a relationship might not necessarily work out, that you are not necessarily going to be able to repeat it, then think about how you got exactly what wanted and that many other people would have really wanted to have your experience, and yet you can't appreciate it like you think you should.
I think the solution is partly to accept it, and just let your expectations about the happiness related to those achievements go down, and also trying to focus on achievements that have lasting effects, mainly those that involve getting wealthier or healthier, and finally trying to have a more balanced life, relying less on high-impact random once-in-a-while experiences and more on habitual routine experiences, although it can be hard to find the motivation for that for some people.
Great insight. The most moving part of David Letterman’s new show was when Barack Obama asked Dave if he ever feels lucky (yes, the questions were supposed to go the other direction, generally). Dave immediately caught the meaning and ran with it with some emotion.
This theory is quite off, as most extremely successful sports heros lead a happy (and mostly drunk) afterlife as celebrity.
You either having problems with the celeb status, or more likely the constant cheating (doping) is hitting at your morale. They can always find you years after. Esp after upper management shakeups. As we saw with many confirmed dopers. I would certainly look more into that angle.
You could be right, but I can see how something that you have dedicated your entire life to, with much fanfare, riches and congratulation, coming to an end could make you feel directionless and depressed.
"Really, after every Olympics I think I fell into a major state of depression," Phelps said.
Bruce Springsteen talks a lot about his depression in his memoir and it sounds like this, dropping off a cliff when returning home after tours. It is super helpful that celebrities speak out so people can relate, but I think performers whose lives are so intensively oriented to performances and then abruptly return to home life rhythms have special needs when it comes to mental health and making sense of their lives. Most of us don’t have such extreme highs.
One of the best set of podcast episodes I ever heard (there are many great podcasts out there, but this is one of them) was on Heavyweight.
It's about one of Jonathan Goldstein's friends (Gregor) who is trying to retrieve a CD set of Alan Lomax recordings from ... Moby, of all people.
This podcast is brilliant to me because, while it somehow manages to be comically absurd, it also raises all sorts of issues about success and credit and how it is achieved, and what worth that actually has. The Lomax recordings, for example, were arguably central to Play as an album, and it was Gregor that introduced Moby to them. So although Gregor just wants his CDs back, by the end of it, a lot of issues are raised about how much credit Gregor really deserves for Play, and Moby's resulting success from that album. Gregor himself isn't looking for financial compensation or anything, but you kind of start to wonder if Moby should have done more for him interpersonally or something, or in terms of acknowledgements and introductions and something, if nothing else as a friend.
But then you meet Moby, and you find out he was severely depressed after the album came and went, because he's realized he's been one fad in a stream of fads, and that a lot of the issues he had in his life weren't going to be addressed by the fame. But then again, he's sitting in this really nice house, and doing pretty well for himself, and he still doesn't give the CDs back to Gregor, and dodges the issue almost entirely, other than to say they're locked in an archive somewhere that Gregor can't get to.
I'm approaching a point in my career and age where I'm looking back and myself and looking at others, and starting to feel like a lot of success is just luck, or chance, or coincidence, or something like that. Not all of it, but more than we give it credit. I also feel like it operates in these subtle, cumulative sorts of ways. I'm also frustrated because it seems like people go through these contortions of hindsight bias and selection bias and all sorts of other things to justify these things post hoc, or that discussions become distorted.
For example, Phelps is a great swimmer and I don't mean to suggest he doesn't deserve his medals. I also don't want to suggest that Moby lacks talent or something. But what if Gregor hadn't shared those Lomax recordings with him? Would Gregor's career been different if Moby had actually shown thanks to Gregor, by forging connections for him, etc.?
I have a mentor and friend who is wildly successful in their career, at the top of what's achievable in that field, and well within the top 1% income-wise. At one point, for various reasons, especially because of their spouse, they moved to a position with a different organization. To me it seemed like a great fit. This friend had entertained other moves, that never seemed right to me, but this one seemed right. In the end, though, it killed his productivity, and he stopped being able to do much of anything, just because differences in culture and fit at the two institutions. He got out of it and returned to where he started his career, and things became ok again, but I've often wondered what would have happened if he had started at the second place he worked at. I have a strong suspicion people would have attributed whatever happened to him to him, rather than his circumstances or fit, and I'm not sure he would have had a point of comparison to know enough that he would do better someplace else (after all, everyone thought the move was a kind of win-win-win for everyone involved, when it turned out to be the opposite).
Would you happen to have a link to the podcast episode?
EDIT:
A good article on the podcast can be found here[1]. The podcast itself can be found here[2]. Because I just listened to this song for the first time in a while, here is my favorite song by Moby[3].
I just listened to that podcast. Very interesting and you described it perfectly.
Moby really comes off as a bad person to me, he basically said the CDs were in a storage facility, which is probably a lie, but never offered to retrieve them for Gregor or anything.
A better person would have either offered some way of returning them, or some kind of other compensation. I could understand if Moby is somewhat attached to the CDs that were directly responsible for making him rich and famous, but he's a millionaire, how about just buying Gregor another set of CDs, just as a nice gesture and because it's the right thing to do? Instead he spouts off some garbage about how that music was part of the funeral service for somebody's mother and it was a touching ceremony, as if that's meant to somehow make it ok that he borrowed somebody's 7-CD set and never returned it.
Basically he just said he still had them, but didn't want to give them back.
I'd say the huge difference for Michael Phelps is that he has no obstacles in his way in seeing a psychiatrist. The rest of us have to worry about our health insurance, drug insurance, transportation, time off, etc.. I am not demeaning Mr. Phelps - I just want to make the point-- that seeing a psychiatrist regularly can make all the difference in mental health and state of being.
24 comments
[ 4.4 ms ] story [ 62.1 ms ] threadI find hope in a "heroic" public persona bringing the condition the awareness and communal acknowledgement and support it desperately needs.
He has all the possibilities in the world to cure his depression, including long vacations in any place of the world.
Only if we really understand how the brain works and how to modify and alter it, we will be able to heal mental illnesses.
I always think "if I do this, if I do that, it will all get better". It does, for a while. I've changed my surroundings and life several times, used all the drugs, but depression always comes back. You have to just learn to live with it. Weird stuff.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/lewy-body-dem...
It seems like Phelps had his moment of reckoning with his back burner issues in 2012 but he seems to have developed more emotional skills to deal with them. Good for him!
That means living with not being rich or famous or actually being particularly good at anything on a global scale.
Phelps was supported by a society that brought him burritos and clean towels and factory workers who made swimming caps and if he has stuff to teach all of us regular people about depression I think that's good to hear.
Even people who never had any great achievements can experience it with sex: sometimes you are alone for a while, and think how amazing it would be to have sex with someone, thinking about all sorts of happy feelings you'd have and how you would be happier overall and so on. Then you have a one night stand, and it's good, but you realize it hasn't really changed anything, that a relationship might not necessarily work out, that you are not necessarily going to be able to repeat it, then think about how you got exactly what wanted and that many other people would have really wanted to have your experience, and yet you can't appreciate it like you think you should.
I think the solution is partly to accept it, and just let your expectations about the happiness related to those achievements go down, and also trying to focus on achievements that have lasting effects, mainly those that involve getting wealthier or healthier, and finally trying to have a more balanced life, relying less on high-impact random once-in-a-while experiences and more on habitual routine experiences, although it can be hard to find the motivation for that for some people.
I mean Michael got it all when he won. I'm not sure about his health, but he got everything else.
You either having problems with the celeb status, or more likely the constant cheating (doping) is hitting at your morale. They can always find you years after. Esp after upper management shakeups. As we saw with many confirmed dopers. I would certainly look more into that angle.
Bruce Springsteen talks a lot about his depression in his memoir and it sounds like this, dropping off a cliff when returning home after tours. It is super helpful that celebrities speak out so people can relate, but I think performers whose lives are so intensively oriented to performances and then abruptly return to home life rhythms have special needs when it comes to mental health and making sense of their lives. Most of us don’t have such extreme highs.
It's about one of Jonathan Goldstein's friends (Gregor) who is trying to retrieve a CD set of Alan Lomax recordings from ... Moby, of all people.
This podcast is brilliant to me because, while it somehow manages to be comically absurd, it also raises all sorts of issues about success and credit and how it is achieved, and what worth that actually has. The Lomax recordings, for example, were arguably central to Play as an album, and it was Gregor that introduced Moby to them. So although Gregor just wants his CDs back, by the end of it, a lot of issues are raised about how much credit Gregor really deserves for Play, and Moby's resulting success from that album. Gregor himself isn't looking for financial compensation or anything, but you kind of start to wonder if Moby should have done more for him interpersonally or something, or in terms of acknowledgements and introductions and something, if nothing else as a friend.
But then you meet Moby, and you find out he was severely depressed after the album came and went, because he's realized he's been one fad in a stream of fads, and that a lot of the issues he had in his life weren't going to be addressed by the fame. But then again, he's sitting in this really nice house, and doing pretty well for himself, and he still doesn't give the CDs back to Gregor, and dodges the issue almost entirely, other than to say they're locked in an archive somewhere that Gregor can't get to.
I'm approaching a point in my career and age where I'm looking back and myself and looking at others, and starting to feel like a lot of success is just luck, or chance, or coincidence, or something like that. Not all of it, but more than we give it credit. I also feel like it operates in these subtle, cumulative sorts of ways. I'm also frustrated because it seems like people go through these contortions of hindsight bias and selection bias and all sorts of other things to justify these things post hoc, or that discussions become distorted.
For example, Phelps is a great swimmer and I don't mean to suggest he doesn't deserve his medals. I also don't want to suggest that Moby lacks talent or something. But what if Gregor hadn't shared those Lomax recordings with him? Would Gregor's career been different if Moby had actually shown thanks to Gregor, by forging connections for him, etc.?
I have a mentor and friend who is wildly successful in their career, at the top of what's achievable in that field, and well within the top 1% income-wise. At one point, for various reasons, especially because of their spouse, they moved to a position with a different organization. To me it seemed like a great fit. This friend had entertained other moves, that never seemed right to me, but this one seemed right. In the end, though, it killed his productivity, and he stopped being able to do much of anything, just because differences in culture and fit at the two institutions. He got out of it and returned to where he started his career, and things became ok again, but I've often wondered what would have happened if he had started at the second place he worked at. I have a strong suspicion people would have attributed whatever happened to him to him, rather than his circumstances or fit, and I'm not sure he would have had a point of comparison to know enough that he would do better someplace else (after all, everyone thought the move was a kind of win-win-win for everyone involved, when it turned out to be the opposite).
EDIT:
A good article on the podcast can be found here[1]. The podcast itself can be found here[2]. Because I just listened to this song for the first time in a while, here is my favorite song by Moby[3].
1. http://www.vinylmeplease.com/magazine/moby-best-podcast-ever...
2. https://cms.megaphone.fm/channel/heavyweight?selected=GLT174...
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d9SgRtEkBo
Moby really comes off as a bad person to me, he basically said the CDs were in a storage facility, which is probably a lie, but never offered to retrieve them for Gregor or anything.
A better person would have either offered some way of returning them, or some kind of other compensation. I could understand if Moby is somewhat attached to the CDs that were directly responsible for making him rich and famous, but he's a millionaire, how about just buying Gregor another set of CDs, just as a nice gesture and because it's the right thing to do? Instead he spouts off some garbage about how that music was part of the funeral service for somebody's mother and it was a touching ceremony, as if that's meant to somehow make it ok that he borrowed somebody's 7-CD set and never returned it.
Basically he just said he still had them, but didn't want to give them back.