Ask HN: Do You Consider Remote a Working Perk?
I was contacted about a remote position today. They asked for my expected rate and I told them. They replied, "Can you consider coming down since this is a remote position?"
I really struggled to come up with a response to this. Yes, I'm willing to negotiate on principal, but it has nothing to do with being remote. In fact, I consider remote a reason to pay more money.
My thinking is that it's difficult to find the type of people who has the focus and skills (focus overrides skill, I think) to really do remote work well. The employer is not paying for the office, not giving me free coffee, not paying for the computer I'm using, and (if it's important) no ping pong, and no social interaction with coworkers. In return, I give full-on focused work with no cruft.
I understand that it is a trade off, but I'm never sold on the thought that remote is some exclusive benefit.
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[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 142 ms ] threadMeanwhile, the rest of our deliverables that didn't involve this engineer and his team have shipped 90% ahead of time. That 10% was one deliverable that wasn't shipped ahead of time, it was shipped on time.
And my dept. is 100% remote.
I like your arguments though, working remotely sacrifices a lot that you would otherwise get by being chained to a desk, and the idea that you should take LESS money because of it is offensive.
If you live in Hollywood and the job you want is in Santa Monica, then you would add some time for that. If the remote ob is just as good, you could save some time and not go to Santa Monica.
If your ideal job is already down the street from where you live, then remote doesn't offer much commute advantage.
Too hard to get anything done when others you need to collaborate with are not there.
1. the employee either genuinely enjoys the work or genuinely cares about the company
2. the employee has not become cynical about the company, even if (1) was originally true.
In most lines of work these are unlikely to be true for most people. However, software engineering can, if you're lucky, have an addictive quality and be intellectually enjoyable and intellectually meaningful. If that coincides with a decent company with decent people, then weirdly, remote working can result in people working hard away from the office. In my case, getting much more done away from the office because personally I can get nothing done in an open plan office with frequent meetings.
There are extremes and exceptions, of course, but the base assumption seems reasonable to me.
Ultimately, you decide if the offer is what you wanted.
It's a perk in the sense that you're not paying bay area rents. If you're in a high CoL area and want to say, applying to remote positions is an uphill battle, as the chief reason most companies want to look remote is to expand their recruiting reach without raising wages, and hoping to lower them.
https://m.signalvnoise.com/basecamp-doesnt-employ-anyone-in-...
Sometimes when people negotiate they say "can you do x because y" where y is just a plausible way to ask for x.
It is often more graceful than just saying "we don't want to pay that much."
This is a common negotiation tactic. If you give someone _any_ reason when making a request, they are more likely to comply, even if that reason doesn't make sense.
Small example, at a coffee shop: "Can I cut in line?" might get a negative response, but "can I cut in line, I am late to pick up my son from school" is much more likely to get a positive response. I don't have a link, but there have been studies to show that even nonsensical justifications are more likely to get positive responses. "Can I cut in line, my grandmother is watching TV" is more effective than no justification at all.
In this case, by connecting the salary reduction to a feature of the job (remote), it makes it more acceptable to comply with the request than if it didn't have a reason attached.
The only good reason for an employer to require you to be at a specific place is if there are some levers or buttons there that needs to be pulled or pushed.
[Use of the term "telecommuting" seems like another common giveaway, where and when it appears.]
The teams I've worked with have never had difficulty with communicating and collaborating, meeting deadlines and "innovating," and I highly doubt that we're all ninjas (because surely I am not).
Typical was my last position: I never clocked in from 9-5, usually from the early morning hours until late at night, to provide time zone coverage and purely out of interest and the desire to be a contributing member of the team, with several breaks included for meals, exercise, etc. Flexibility meant I was more likely to contribute, rather than less. (So many entities fail to understand this basic human dynamic. Instead create a prison, and watch how the inmates adapt and behave.)
I'm mostly able to control my environment, which means a quiet space in which to work, free from the distractions of my cube-dwelling days (though at least those had walls).
It's simply natural to work together remotely at this point, and I frequently notice how it provides companies with other tangible benefits, which I think some fail to consider.
I'd say some are trapped in a twentieth century mindset, but perhaps we're stuck here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_system.
"Agile Build Factory"
They're literally telling us we're factory workers to them. My objections to this name were met with blinks and hand waves.
Love it. Management probably thinks it is "cool, hip and edgy"
Working “remotely” actually puts the entire burden of managing an office and managing deadlines squarely on your shoulders.
EDIT: I mean managing your own deadlines of course
If for some reason that doesn't work out, you've discovered that the company values you less based on your zip code which is something you definitely want to find out before you're relying on them for your livelyhood.
^ This is basically the rationale I imagine when people pay the same worker less money just because of where they live. They obviously could hire someone local and would pay them more money. But they want to hire you. But they also think they can get away with screwing you on compensation, because you're remote. They save money and they get an employee. It's a win-win for them.
Fuck. That. Especially because they said "Can you consider ...". Uh, no, Mr. I Just Lost All My Negotiating Power By Asking Someone To Think About My Request Rather Than Insisting On It.
Remote is not a benefit. If they had a million qualified local candidates banging down their door, they wouldn't be negotiating with you. Tell them to put up or shut up.
Why do you even care then?
> My thinking is that it's difficult to find the type of people who has the focus and skills (focus overrides skill, I think) to really do remote work well.
Are you basing that on anything other than wild fantasy? Have you heard of eastern Europe, where tons of people will work remote for far less money?
> In return, I give full-on focused work with no cruft.
All employees are expected to give that, remote or not, whatever "with no cruft" really means.
I work remote full-time because it's something that I negotiated up front my with employer, but most of my team members are required to come into the office every day (or at least most days). If they work from home too often their manager will notice and "have a chat" with them eventually.
So from that perspective it definitely feels like a perk, and something that I am fine negotiating over as part of a larger compensation package.
I agree that "remote work" is a skill into itself, but no matter how much I value that, I don't see how it's costing my employer anything.
If anything they ought to pay me more because they don't ave to provide my office and coffee and whatnot.
So then you're saying that you will work for less to work remote, because you value it as a perk.
I mean, I'd work with a live band playing in the room if you'd pay me enough and give me ear plugs, so I suppose "no live music at work" is a perk? I dunno?
They introduced it a while back at my workplace, and tbh, I would not take a job these days where remote work isn't atleast partially on the table.
Saves me between 1 and 3 hours of commute (depending ont he location).
If you'd expect me to come to the office every day... either it has to be somewhere where commuting to is really easy, or pays significantly more. And I'm not even sure I'm willing to compromise on the remote work part.