In all honesty, a lot of this “directness” comes down to the fact that literal translations sound a lot harsher in English than what the non-native speaker necessarily meant.
In Denmark there’s the same sort of experience by foreigners, and I’ve heard it happens in Germany as well.
The situation is that in the local language, there’s a lot subtlety that simply gets lost in translation.
You can probably throw a little culturally bluntness on it as well, but the majority is down to translation.
For your argument to hold, the Dutch (or Danish or Germans) should be perceived as more polite when speaking English, yet they aren't.
Either this or they all speak bad English (which is unlikely due to speaking other Germanic languages and getting 50% of their colloquial American English via Netflix and/or Hollywood)
I spend a lot of time talking about engineering problems, the word 'failure' now means something very specific to me. It means 'didn't work as intended'. If my cup leaks a bit, that is failure. Often things fail for very good reasons.
That is really, really different from what failure means in everyday English, which is much closer to 'somebody didn't succeed due to a neglect of duty'. I usually regret the times I use the word failure in conversation, because in my head it has come to mean something that is really quite mild. I typically can't convey that to a normal listener if I reflexively slip it into a conversation.
Maybe a literal translation from another language loses subtlety and becomes harsher following a similar principle? Each word has a range of meanings, and the closest word in a different language won't ever quite cover the same ground.
However, at least in the case of the Dutch, there is more to it than that. The Dutch have no problems saying "that's not right" whether they say that in Dutch or English, that particular phrase translates to the same thing (Dat klopt niet vs that's not right). And they have no problems (in general) saying that to a stranger, their boss, or their subordinate.
Well, the author of the article is assumedly from the UK. In general, this is not what they would say. They would say something like "respectfully, I'm not sure that's correct". One is a lot more "direct" than the other.
More like "Are you sure? I'm worried that <opposite of thing interlocutor just said>." or "Sorry, I think it's actually <opposite>". Both in an apologetic tone. The word "respectfully" sounds like it's trying too hard: it's a bit overtly subordinate and ingratiating.
> For your argument to hold, the Dutch (or Danish or Germans) should be perceived as more polite when speaking English, yet they aren't.
That'd be true if they were just missing polite words in their languages. Yet the difference is in wording, not in politeness of wording.
I'm no Dutch, but in my native tongue "what do you want?" is perfectly fine and polite question. Where're less polite variations too. "What would you like to order" is not unheard of. But "what can I get you?" would sound totally out of place.
Meanwhile we have 2 different words for "you" - polite and not. Which is lost in translations.
Non-native speakers will either first construct sentences in their native tongue or be heavily influenced by native idioms.
Just because you speak another language does not mean you assimilate the culture. The word "please" is easy to translate - but I have to remember to be more cordial and remember to use it. It does not come naturally in my own tongue.
Things do get lost in translation.
I absolutely loathe the amount of "sorry for your inconvenience" in each and every communication with american support staff. To my ear it sounds insincere. But I do appreciate the fact that it would sound impolite to an american user if left out.
Being polite is not in the words themselves but how they're used. And to my mind that is predicated on culture.
I wouldn't say bad, but I would say it is often spoken without the nuance of a native speaker. In my experience Dutch peoples' English is strongly influenced by Dutch.
In the meantime, Dutch, Danish or Germans speaking English are doing a lot better in terms of communication in foreign tongues than their English counterparts in Dutch, Danish or German.
I don't think that this captures it correctly, otherwise the Dutch, for example, would be considered polite when speaking Dutch. But they aren't they basically say the same thing. The example about the hair cut from the article is a case in point. The Dutch tend to be more direct about these sorts of things.
To some degree you're right, but as an American who is (now) fluent in Dutch, it is not all up to translations.
The Dutch will tell each other if they don't like someone's shoes, if they should have prepared better for a meeting, if you wouldn't mind keeping it down, etc.
What's funny though, is that this often isn't true in the workplace. I worked at Apple for a while, an American company in the Netherlands and their way of giving direct feedback was tough for a lot of people.
I'm not so sure. The majority of Belgians speak Dutch and we are perceived as a lot less direct. The first example in the article, "What do you want?" or the translation in Dutch, is something you'll rarely hear in Belgium. We would use the Dutch variant of "How can I help you?" or a more polite version of "What would you like?".
Belgians wouldn't dream of telling someone on the train to keep it down (we'll just stare disapprovingly and hope for the best), while the Dutch will just get up and ask someone to be quieter.
And Belgians aren't as honest in communicating negative things. We usually have the bad habit of casting doubt over our own opinions before stating them. "I might be mistaken, but I think this might not work because..." is a very common thing. Many people do things like this even when they are very confident they are not mistaken. It'd surprise me if the Dutch do this.
"want" vs. "like", isn't it still just willen in het Nederlands?
I seem to recall hearing "wat kan ik voor u doen?" or "wat willen jullie drinken?" for example. I'm still learning Dutch, but neither of those carries more or less directness or softness to me.
I was going for "Wat mag het zijn?" which is something I hear a lot when going out, but is hard to translate. I thought the distinction between want and like in English conveys a similar idea.
Oh, if its from the south, they got a little bit more customs & manners over there IMO. Try Maastricht, for example.
Literally, it'd be "what may it be" but I don't think a good translation is possible. It'd end up with something like "what is your preference?" but I could come up with a Dutch, formal version of that: "wat mag het u believen?" where "believen" is an equivalent to "wünschen". A German could say, in short, "Sie wünschen?" and with the correct tone and body language it wouldn't be rude. You could say the same about Dutch; tone and body language are very important in communication (I have autism and am in an autism support group where this was recently addressed wink.)
Or perhaps rather "what would you like to order", but shorter. A German translation would end up with "Was möchten Sie haben?" though the Dutch one you mentioned cleverly avoids "du vs Sie" aka (in Dutch) tutoyeren [1]. I find it weak; get over yourself and treat the customer as such. Heck, how about having pride in treating your customer well? Something thoroughly lacking in The Netherlands. And I get it; sometimes you're tired while working such job or it is late or a bad day but this isn't that; it is systematic, and rather rampant in "Randstad" (big cities in Holland).
The Germans use "bitte" a lot more, and are always formal in situations where the Dutch have swapped to "jij/je". Especially Vodafone Netherlands (who got their helpdesk ironically in Maastricht) is so obviously using "jij/je" on their support pages. Cringeworthy! Hello?! I am your customer not your acquaintance!! Also compare for example casual restaurants in Germany and The Netherlands.
It isn't that these rules of using "u" don't exist in Dutch; they do. Its just -slowly but surely- being used less and less with a turning point around the (wild) '70s.
Having grown up with 1/4 Belgian and 3/4 Dutch culture I can very much confirm.
For me, the main thing is that the Dutch simply don't layer their speech whereas in most other cultures there is huge difference between what's being said and what is really meant by that.
In Dutch culture that basically doesn't exist except at levels where it's inevitable (politics, upper management) and even there it's much less subtle than it would be elsewhere and you need to carefully calibrate to see if your conversation partner picks up on it or not.
Given that there is no such double/hidden layer to use it's no surprise that we inevitably became more blunt and direct.
Perhaps it's a result from our long history as traders and the realization we can't possibly manage double/hidden layers for all the cultures we interacted with and thus ended up throwing out the concept altogether.
Perhaps it's a result from our long history as traders
That was my thought as well. Trade languages are always intentionally simplified and essentially impossible to use for dropping indirect hints. I believe this is very much a feature, not a bug. It substantially reduces opportunities for cross cultural misunderstandings and faux pas.
Apropos of nothing, I really liked the Dutch proverb in the article "Just be normal. That's crazy enough."
The literal translation of "What do you want?" is "Wat wil je?", and this is considered impolite. You're unlikely to hear this from a Dutch waiter. You might hear "Wat wilt u?", but even this is rather curtly. The words "je" and "u" both get translated to "you" in English. "U" signifies respect.
"U" is the equivalent of "Sie" in German, but the Germans are far more gründlich (thorough) with using Sie correct. It instantly makes you feel more a respected customer.
In middle English and early modern English there was the distinction between thou and you (nominative case; thee and you for the accusative/dative case), the first is familiar and the second is polite. Obviously these days the familiar has been dropped and so indirect idiom takes the place of the honorific.
I visit Belgium quite regularly. I've also noticed that people never really greet each other in the streets, unless they're already familiar. In the Netherlands it's quite normal to greet pretty much anybody.
I can agree with this. I have translated software from English to Dutch, and when doing literal translations, things get pretty bad. Even the word of "please", which gets translated to "alsjeblieft" is quite bad in the context of software. It has an emotional burden that we don't want in Dutch, it is used when begging for a cookie. We often try to have less of those strong emotions, and that can come across as direct and rude to English speakers.
It doesn't cover everything, but it does play its part.
"...people have the right to say whatever they want and be as direct as they want. And if other people don’t like that, it’s their fault for getting offended."
I guess it's easy to excuse being an asshole by calling it directness, but it's really not the same thing. It's just a cheap cop-out, like how anti-vaxers would suppose themselves "freethinkers".
I live in a culture where being direct is somewhat frowned upon. Not only "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything" but sometimes "if you don't have anything nice to say, make something up". People avoid confronting each other with what they think and want to the point where they'll express the exact opposite, at best adding subtle, passive-aggressive hints as to what they really mean and using irony to avoid responsibility. I guess the burden of confronting people is understood as higher than the burden of constantly having to second guess what at surface seems sincere, to a greater degree than in other, more "direct" cultures.
This can be very excluding to people who didn't grow up here. People that travel here briefly will probably get the impression that we are very nice and welcoming, but if you stay here for long you'll probably find the occasional direct asshole refreshingly simple to dismiss as just that.
That's not to say that being direct is inherently better than being indirect. Particularly the interpretation of "direct" that boils down to "I'll say whatever I want the moment I think of it even though I know that no one wants to hear it". But it's a misinterpretation, really. If I am a considerate person, being direct will reflect that. Before I comment on your shoes I will consider that you probably like them yourself and that it's not very important to me to express that I don't. If you asked me what I thought of them and I didn't tell you what I think, I would consider that rude.
They're the type of person who don't understand the line between 'having the right' and 'having to exercise that right'. It's like those videos of American people being assholes to cops, or bringing huge guns everywhere, because of their rights.
You’re intellectually lazy and oversimplifying a complex issue. You likely either lack social awareness or have a total lack of understanding of how minorities are bullied and made to feel worthless (because your views are so bland as to cause no offense, and you are not a member of any minority).
I hope it's intentionally, but you've proven exactly the parent's point: it is all nice and good to be able to speak your mind and the ones who are offended are to blame (which you seem to underwrite with the hear hear comment), until someone is blunt and direct to "you". Then it gets personal and nasty real quick.
Thing is, being open / honest sometimes triggers emotion and does not stimulate discussion or progress.
My experience (source: being Dutch / Swiss-German) is that it really really matters not only what is being said or even how true it is, a very important aspect is what / how the receiver interprets the message. When I am with my Dutch (Amsterdammer) family and friends, we are direct in a very specific way about specific subjects. Being with my Swiss-German family and friends we are too: but on different subjects and in different wording.
Just like humor translates lousy, so do nuance and social etiquettes.
I think you've missed the point: the fact that his/her opinion is misguided and wrong doesn't change the fact that it is good that it was shared openly and bluntly.
Right, the comment was meant somewhat ironically. Less directly I might have said:
I agree there are often situation where it would be helpful if people would be more direct.
However I think there are situations where it’s better to either avoid the issue entirely, or take a less direct approach. That might be the case with those who have radically different views to us, or are members of a minority where taking a direct approach might be misinterpreted as overly agressive, or could make them feel otherwise unwelcome.
Oh, so you weren't actually being direct, but instead were being intentionally rude for the sole sake of being rude and offensive.
Hmm...
Do you even realize there is a difference?
To me it is actually kind of ironic that the continual equating of "plain truth, even if it causes offense" with "intending to cause harm by intensional bullying masquerading as being truthful" has "progressed" [sic] so far as that people who hold these views truly can't tell the difference any longer.
We love your many technical contributions to HN but I'm sorry to say that you've frequently been slipping into (a) ideological battle and (b) outright incivility when posting here, and it seems to be getting worse. Could you please roll that back? It's really a problem. These things destroy the container that makes HN viable as a site at all. We need senior users like you to strengthen it, not destabilize it.
I realize that it can be hard to bracket out one's reactive emotions when the internet is doing its provocation thing, but we need everyone here to try. Our common interest in having a site that doesn't suck needs to take precedence over our annoyance at each other's ideological views.
That's a bannable attack on HN. I'm not going to ban you because the thread is about "directness". On HN, however, it is not ok to be a direct asshole, so would you please not post like this here?
Lol, yes, I always loved working with the Finns. I am Dutch myself, so pretty direct, but the Finns take it up to a different level. I remember a business meeting for which I traveled to Helsinki. After a 1 minute intro, our customer spoke uninterrupted for 20 minutes, explaining in great detail why our product completely sucked. It was very useful actually, because the feedback was factual and demonstrated a great understanding of the problem. There was no time wasting or sugarcoating.
Sometimes I wonder if this directness thing isn't just a myth started by the British, for whom the norm is politeness often verging on pure and simple hypocrisy.
To the Americans - you guys are very direct too, in my experience (compared to the Irish and English), perhaps that's why you haven't noticed it in the Netherlands?
It has been asserted by adherents to certain political groups that their voices are being suppressed by the establishment. E.g the alt right. If that is true and the article's premise is true, "Dutch people have the right to say whatever they want and be as direct as they want. And if other people don’t like that, it’s their fault for getting offended." then it must be so that open support for alt right is much stronger than in the Netherlands than in Britain.
But alt right is (afaik) much stronger in Britain than in the Netherlands. It follows that Dutch people either aren't as direct as the article claims or that alt right sentiment isn't being suppressed.
You are assuming that the only reason for _not_ being in the alt-right, is the fear of offending someone. I would argue that this is exactly the inverse in real life.
If issues are discussed openly, then you often find that you can reach a middle ground through discussion.
The second premise is also incorrect, since there _is_ a large alt-right faction in the Netherlands. To all intents and purposes the second largest political party is an alt-right party.
Perhaps alt-right views are expressed less frequently in the Netherlands because people aren't afraid to call someone who expresses those views a fucking moron unlike Britain where they are.
> We chose our seats and waited, but the waiter was nowhere to be seen.
> When he finally materialised, seemingly out of nowhere, he didn’t ask ‘What would you like to order’, or ‘What can I get you?’.
> He said ‘What do you want?’.
> Maybe it was the fact that he’d said it in English, or maybe he was just having a bad day, but I was shocked nonetheless.
This is a direct translation of the Dutch "wat wilt u hebben?" which is in fact rather polite. The above anecdote is just a case of a waiter who hasn't yet learned the nuances of English ("What do you want?" is something you'd say to someone bothering you)
> “I think the Netherlands are a place where… no-one is going to pretend.
> [For example], when you say something in a business meeting that is not a very smart suggestion, people will always point it out,” he said.
I'd say this is true.
> “You don’t talk too loudly on the train because it’s not too nice for the people in your compartment; you don’t play your music too loud in your apartment because it’s not so nice for your neighbours; there is this constant calibrating of your own behaviour,” Coates explained.
> But in the Netherlands, there is “the sense that people have the right to say whatever they want and be as direct as they want. And if other people don’t like that, it’s their fault for getting offended.”
This paragraph conflates being a decent and considerate human being with being direct. We (the Dutch) could do the former better, there's no excuse for being loud or noisy on a train and it has nothing to do with being direct.
> “You sit in a restaurant with a friend and they will happily, in a room full of strangers, talk quite loudly about their medical problems or their parents’ divorce or their love life.
> They see no reason to keep it a secret.”
I'd say this is true, I do this. I don't care what people around me think about me (but I do go out of my way not to inconvenience people.
> But Breukel disagrees with the premise that the Dutch don’t have taboo topics.
> “We don’t discuss salaries, we don’t discuss pensions.
A better example of directness in trains is the fact that people will come tell you to shut up when you're in the silent part of the train (the "stilte coupe"). I've noticed that in other cultures, people would silently judge people who violate that rule. In the Netherlands it happens more often than not that somebody will go tell a person to have another good look at the sign and shut up.
My pet peeve is people playing music out or having calls on speakerphone despite the sound quality being terrible. Not just transportation but in general.
People are pretty decent on trains here in LA, though they're terrible about sitting all over the stairs or staying to the right on an escalator.
The British really have it down. Back in the day on the Tube it might be crowded and steamy but you could hear a pin drop.
Yes this! Just try talking in a "silent carriage" on the train. That said, on a non-silent carriage, unless the talk is offensive, people tend to live and let live in my experience.
I witnessed a funny exchange in the train recently. We were not in a "silence" carriage, but for whatever reason, nobody was talking, except this one guy who was talking to someone on the phone about cars, among other things. Out of nowhere, an elderly lady cussed him out for his "dirty talk about cars" and his orange jacket. He told her quite bluntly to mind her own business because they weren't in a silence carriage, so he could talk all he wanted. She shut up, he continued talking, but a bit quieter this time. Everybody was happy.
Mostly people tend to be fairly quiet and ignore other people while traveling, unless they already have a conversation partner.
You're right, although to a non-native speaker these might be hard to distinguish. The Dutch are often praised for their ability to speak English, but in my experience nuances like these are often missed, making the Dutch come across more blunt than they actually are.
That hits like a pliers on a pig. Now you are playing to the Dutch people the zwartepiet. We share selflessly with you the best parts of our amazing language and you look the given horse in the mouth! This is why we not the effort taken to learn you Dutch, because who not honors the small is not worth the big!
Being Dutch I painstakingly avoid using proverbs when speaking English, to avoid saying anything ridiculous. Sometimes the literal translation is actually correct, but it makes me paranoid.
I also find the examples in this article a bit lacking in applicability to the subject. Not helping someone in the supermarket and being loud in the train have nothing to do with directness. However, I do believe they are Dutch traits as well (arrogance and unwillingness to serve).
We have some of the worst waiters; our (Dutch people) views of equality as being one of the most important things in society, render us unable to serve people, or to be served by others in fact. There always is some awkwardness with regards to the position of the server and the person being served. That is also why we have resolved into over automating everything in restaurants and why most waiting staff are students. Compare this to countries like France and Italy where waiting is a true profession.
In line with the 'people from Amsterdam are the most direct': I think "people from Amsterdam are the worst" is probably a more accurate statement. People who aren't from Amsterdam often state 'Amsterdam is a great city, too bad of all of those people who live there'.
>We have some of the worst waiters; our (Dutch people) views of equality as being one of the most important things in society, render us unable to serve people, or to be served by others in fact. There always is some awkwardness with regards to the position of the server and the person being served.
I was once with an Icelandic friend who absentmindedly snapped while attempting to get a Dutch waiter's attention. While my friend meant nothing by it and certainly didn't intend to offend, he got a very direct "don't ever do that, I'm not your servant" rebuke from the waiter.
The waiter's rebuke would never have happened in the US for example. If anything they might have apologized for being inattentive.
Same thing would have happened in France for sure.
I saw once a client whistle to get the attention of a waiter. The waiter didn't come, the restaurant owner did, asking (loudly) the client if she had lost her dog.
Waiters in Amsterdam are really the worst. I lived there for a while and have become highly appreciative of friendly waiters, which are apparently quite normal in the Netherlands, just not in Amsterdam.
Side note: De Bekeerde Suster in Amsterdam has friendly waiters. It's become my go to spot for that exact reason.
I dine out in Amsterdam quite often and have yet to encounter a rude waiter. What did happen is that one day we had a party in the upstairs part of a restaurant in the inner city and due to a shift change they totally forgot about us. We had a great time but went home hungry, nobody went to alert the staff to the party because we figured it would be more fun to see if they ever turned up :)
Rudeness only if you “cross the lines” with them, like demanding service. But terrible, slow, unatentive, untrained waiters is definitely the rule here.
I once went for the first time to visit a Dutch acquaintance and before I entered the bathroom for a shower I was asked "not to take a long shower because of the electricity costs."
Dutch showers are as a general rule not electricity heated but gas, and those that are electricity heated have typically really old boilers that take forever to warm up, likely the host meant that they too would like a shower later.
I am Dutch and I would also need a moment to process that request. I would never ask a guest to shower short because of the energy cost. Unless, of course, they stick around for a year and tend to shower for 2 hours each day. This is more about being frugal than being Dutch.
The 'what do you want?' example is simply a case of someone being unable to use the Dutch honorific 'U' in English substituting it correctly with 'you' since both 'jij' and 'U' map onto 'you'. Also, what I find more interesting is that the tourist automatically assumed the host spoke English, did so and then complained about the quality of the English, rather than to be appreciative of the fact that the serving staff spoke English (which almost everybody here does, but still, I'd be amazed to find a tourist that learned the language before making a trip).
As a tourist who has attempted to learn the language, I've been told to "please just speak English" nearly all of the times I've tried it (much to my dismay!)
The Dutch love to practice their English. At the same time, ignore the requests, unless there is an urgent need to get the message across. Otherwise you'll be forever stuck. Another good trick - usually this won't work if people know your background - is to say you don't speak English, that way at least you get some time in, which is the biggest factor in learning another language.
And thank you for trying to learn the language of your destination, that alone should get you a lot of credit with the locals.
Amsterdam is the problem. Too many foreigners and too little patience from locals to speak Dutch with someone who doesn’t speak it greatly. Only way is to move to another city. Source: I’m a foreigner in Amsterdam for seven years and don’t speak the language well.
> My Dutch teacher later explained that the Dutch are very direct – and nowhere are they so direct as they are in Amsterdam.
That's weird, I always hear that people in Rotterdam are the most direct ones within Netherlands.
It's funny to read this article where someone gives an example that instead of giving loads of reasons to see a doctor you should ask to see a doctor. To me it's entirely strange you don't just ask for it. It comes across as being not too bright (why don't you conclude this yourself instead of talking endlessly about it with me).
I work with Danish people, they're pretty direct as well. It quite frustrates me if there's some issue and someone keeps on complaining/discussing with random people instead of raising it with the person who has the ability to make a change. I highly appreciate my style of working.
I've worked with people from all over the world and likely annoyed quite a few of them. That said, usually once they grasp that they can tell me things straightforwardly they tend to appreciate it.
Lived in both. Rotterdam and in lesser extend The Hague are more direct, but tend to be more playful and humorist in social conversations. Whereas Amsterdam people can be downright blunt.
(real life) Example:
Me entering a tram in Amsterdam asking conductor: I need to go to this square...
Amsterdam Conductor: yeah so??
Me entering a tram in Rotterdam asking conductor: I need to go to this square...
Rotterdam Conductor: I'm not sure if you really should go there.
Breukel advised me to start with the subject – for example, ‘I would like an appointment’ – instead of listing all the reasons why I should see the doctor.
Interesting, because that's how it's expected to be done where I come from(Poland). Even "better" - the person on the other end will often interrupt you with a follow-up question to the the statement you hesitated to say.
I'm a Yorkshireman. We have a reputation within the UK for being plain-spoken and direct as well. It goes without saying that I prefer it to "mealy-mouthed" speech that doesn't get to the point.
It's not Dutch that are direct. It's Brits that are indirect.
As one lad from England told me: "If you cycle to work, forget to shower and stinks, no one would say anything to you, but they would report you to the manager :)"
Brit here — I've twice in my career encountered this, once as a youngling, once as a director — both times were broached directly and covertly with the ..er.. offending parties.
I'm from the North, if that makes any difference. I do tend to view Southerners as generally a bit less direct.
(TL;DR: "And although I may complain about Dutch directness, I’m grateful to live in a country that allows me to be just that." You're living in Amsterdam [1], not The Netherlands.)
I am from The Netherlands and I'd say this article paints a bit rose-tinted glasses plus anecdotal evidence so allow me to present a can of nuances.
For example, the directness phenomenon isn't as widespread as it is everywhere in The Netherlands. I'm originally from the more rural south (a Catholic area) and its very much different than where I live now (Amsterdam Area). South is more.. "Burgundian" and less direct. Both have their charms but its annoying when outsiders equal Amsterdam or (big cities in) Holland with The Netherlands.
An example where directness backfires: when I go to a restaurant in Germany or when I get my train ticket checked in Germany I feel treated more like a gentleman. Service is flat out better over there. I'd suggest to consider this to be attributed to "Deutsche Gründlichkeit" but I'm not so arrogant to assume there are no other possible reasons. Anthropology is rather complex...
Another example of rose-tinted glasses is "Many of the older houses in the Netherlands have big windows, allowing visitors – if they so wish – to peep inside." everywhere I look there's tools used to close the windows be it small or large. And they're often used. Another typical thing in The Netherlands is that gardens are walled to denote which part is who's.
Or this one: "The Netherlands is unique in the way it treats topics such as prostitution, drugs and euthanasia." Perhaps the 3 of them as a package, but Christian CDA made mushrooms illegal in the '00s, coffeeshops are getting closed and are not allowed to be too close to schools (good luck with dense areas), and the Red Light District is less red nowadays. A country like Portugal also has decriminalized drugs. Euthenasia is also getting adopted more often in other countries (let us not forget Belgium and Canada [2]), and btw it has very strict rules in The Netherlands. The Christians dislike it as well.
"Proverbs such as ‘Doe maar normaal, dan ben je al gek genoeg’ (just be normal, that’s already crazy enough) or ‘Stek je hoofd niet boven het maaiveld uit’ (don’t put your head above the ground) are there to remind us that we are all the same." These stem very much from Calvinism.
Leo Blokhuis made a 8 part series "Achter De Dijken" about Calvinism in The Netherlands [3]. I found it very good. It is in Dutch and probably geolocked to be only available for Dutch IPs, but series like these should work over VPN or be available on Usenet. Also, other public broadcast television might've bought the rights and provided translation, I don't know. Maybe it is even possible to suggest it to your public broadcast TV station? Even that series, however, is a caricature/generalisation.
[1] Or as others provided with nuance: "a big city in Holland"
I wonder how popular downloading via Usenet is outside of The Netherlands, where me and my friends shared an account in high school. Here in Japan it seems no-one is using it (for downloading).
The people I have offended this way is crazy... it's not meant as an insult, but as the article states "what do you want" is already shocking, so just imagine if anything more direct is asked. :(
If you're looking for advice here, most people will be much more forgiving if you open with something like "I'm afraid this isn't my first language, forgive me if I get things wrong", delivered with a sunny smile, as one of the first things you say. (I'm a Brit; this is intended for speaking to Brits.)
I feel the Dutch are a lot more casual about it and less grumpy. Germans are direct when unhappy about something ("don't be so loud", "get your feet of the seats"), but are much more likely to stare disapprovingly.
Dutch are also more direct when talking about themselves/their feelings - you would never hear a German say "my new haircut looks great"
yeah and the Dutch are over 'the war', whereas I doubt the Germans ever will. Dutch have total apathy for privacy, the Germans however are very conscious about it because of Stasi history.
It's not entirely true that the Dutch are always honest and direct.
I think that the real key to Dutch etiquette is efficiency. If it makes things go faster, it's good. You hold a door open for someone (irrespective of gender) only if it's efficient for both of you to do so. Directness is more efficient than beating around the bush, honesty is more efficient than a comfortable lie when it concerns an issue that's going to have to be dealt with at some point. Picking fights with people is not efficient. That's a waste of everybody's time.
> when you say something in a business meeting that is not a very smart suggestion, people will always point it out,” he said.
Because it's inefficient to waste time on a stupid idea.
> “You don’t talk too loudly on the train because it’s not too nice for the people in your compartment; you don’t
> play your music too loud in your apartment because it’s not so nice for your neighbours; there is this constant
> calibrating of your own behaviour,” Coates explained. But in the Netherlands, there is “the sense that people
> have the right to say whatever they want and be as direct as they want. And if other people don’t like that,
> it’s their fault for getting offended.”
I disagree. Most Dutch also don't talk loudly on the train. In fact, the Dutch are pretty good at minding their own business and ignoring whatever other people are doing. Bothering other people with your business is wasting their time. Of course jerks exist, but excessive noise is usually not appreciated.
> One time, I found myself at the supermarket staring with disbelief at the groceries that had spilled out of my
> hands onto the floor. Within seconds, I was surrounded by no fewer than 10 Dutch people, all of them giving me
> advice on what to do. But not one lifted a finger. To me, the situation was obvious: I needed help immediately.
> But the Dutch saw it differently: unless I specifically asked for help, it probably wasn’t necessary.
This may actually be a case of politeness. Maybe you've got everything under control and are perfectly capable of picking up your own things. If not, people stand ready to help, but if you don't ask, they will assume you don't need help. They don't want to intrude on your business unasked. Unless it becomes obvious that you do need help (but the Bystander Effect can be strong).
> “Calvinism dictated the individual responsibility for moral salvage from the sinful world through introspection,
> total honesty, soberness, rejection of ‘pleasure’ as well as the ‘enjoyment’ of wealth,”
Yet the Dutch do like to relax and enjoy themselves. We're world champions at part-time work, and hate the 50-hour weeks that Americans too often work. In fact, I don't think any country in Europe works less hours per year than we do. We don't want to waste time on silly nonsense, unless it's silly nonsense that we enjoy.
Though if there's one taboo, it's definitely conspicuous displays of wealth. Millionaires better pretend they're normal people like the rest of us. We've always been a very egalitarian society. Even in the 18th century, our transport network of river barges transported all passengers in the same cabin, whether they were nobility or peasants.
> This straightforwardness is so intrinsic in Dutch society that there’s even a Dutch word for it:
> bespreekbaarheid (speakability) – that everything can and should be talked about; there are no taboo topics.
Not entirely. A topic can be "bespreekbaar", but it's technically also possible for a topic to be "onbespreekbaar": not up for discussion. Usually, people tend to want to make things "bespreekbaar", because that enables honest discussion and more efficient sharing of info...
This is the part of it that I like and hold on to. No ceremony, straight to the point. What I wouldn’t mind losing is the needlessly giving opinions about everything. Especially commenting on what could be better when it concerns things that can hardly be changed at all. If nobody’s asking, keep it to yourself, unless you’re confident you’re adding something to the conversation. In my experience, most opinions come out when there’s nothing else to talk about.
> What I wouldn’t mind losing is the needlessly giving opinions about everything. Especially
> commenting on what could be better when it concerns things that can hardly be changed at all.
Is that specifically a Dutch thing? I definitely do that.
Hard to say, but it's just a different kind of outspokenness. I mostly became aware of it when staying in Central/Eastern European countries. Communism has taught people there to be hesitant to give their opinion, even more so when not asked for it. It certainly helped to tone it down a bit myself.
I moved to the Netherlands from the UK (where nothing happens without someone saying “please” or “are you sure ?” at least two times) year ago.
Dutch directnesss was something that would freeze the blood in my veins at first but after getting the hang of it, i’ve come to enjoy it (they can be direct but another good thing is you can be direct back), because if they don’t have patience for BS, neither do i.
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[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 189 ms ] threadIn Denmark there’s the same sort of experience by foreigners, and I’ve heard it happens in Germany as well.
The situation is that in the local language, there’s a lot subtlety that simply gets lost in translation.
You can probably throw a little culturally bluntness on it as well, but the majority is down to translation.
For your argument to hold, the Dutch (or Danish or Germans) should be perceived as more polite when speaking English, yet they aren't.
Either this or they all speak bad English (which is unlikely due to speaking other Germanic languages and getting 50% of their colloquial American English via Netflix and/or Hollywood)
That is really, really different from what failure means in everyday English, which is much closer to 'somebody didn't succeed due to a neglect of duty'. I usually regret the times I use the word failure in conversation, because in my head it has come to mean something that is really quite mild. I typically can't convey that to a normal listener if I reflexively slip it into a conversation.
Maybe a literal translation from another language loses subtlety and becomes harsher following a similar principle? Each word has a range of meanings, and the closest word in a different language won't ever quite cover the same ground.
However, at least in the case of the Dutch, there is more to it than that. The Dutch have no problems saying "that's not right" whether they say that in Dutch or English, that particular phrase translates to the same thing (Dat klopt niet vs that's not right). And they have no problems (in general) saying that to a stranger, their boss, or their subordinate.
The only case I could come up with is Indians. But maybe that's just my experience with cheap outsourcing...
I agree developers may use "failure" or just boolean predicates ("That statement is false!") in a very exact way that may be perceived rude.
But I believe that issue is orthogonal to the directness of the Dutch. Still, beware Dutch developers until we sorted this out ;-)
That'd be true if they were just missing polite words in their languages. Yet the difference is in wording, not in politeness of wording.
I'm no Dutch, but in my native tongue "what do you want?" is perfectly fine and polite question. Where're less polite variations too. "What would you like to order" is not unheard of. But "what can I get you?" would sound totally out of place.
Meanwhile we have 2 different words for "you" - polite and not. Which is lost in translations.
Just because you speak another language does not mean you assimilate the culture. The word "please" is easy to translate - but I have to remember to be more cordial and remember to use it. It does not come naturally in my own tongue.
Things do get lost in translation.
I absolutely loathe the amount of "sorry for your inconvenience" in each and every communication with american support staff. To my ear it sounds insincere. But I do appreciate the fact that it would sound impolite to an american user if left out.
Being polite is not in the words themselves but how they're used. And to my mind that is predicated on culture.
Same in France. As a French, I hate the "merci pour votre compréhension". It drives me crazy because this is such an empty sentence.
I wouldn't say bad, but I would say it is often spoken without the nuance of a native speaker. In my experience Dutch peoples' English is strongly influenced by Dutch.
The Dutch will tell each other if they don't like someone's shoes, if they should have prepared better for a meeting, if you wouldn't mind keeping it down, etc.
Belgians wouldn't dream of telling someone on the train to keep it down (we'll just stare disapprovingly and hope for the best), while the Dutch will just get up and ask someone to be quieter.
And Belgians aren't as honest in communicating negative things. We usually have the bad habit of casting doubt over our own opinions before stating them. "I might be mistaken, but I think this might not work because..." is a very common thing. Many people do things like this even when they are very confident they are not mistaken. It'd surprise me if the Dutch do this.
I seem to recall hearing "wat kan ik voor u doen?" or "wat willen jullie drinken?" for example. I'm still learning Dutch, but neither of those carries more or less directness or softness to me.
I don't recall ever hearing this in the NL. Maybe it's a Flemish thing.
Literally, it'd be "what may it be" but I don't think a good translation is possible. It'd end up with something like "what is your preference?" but I could come up with a Dutch, formal version of that: "wat mag het u believen?" where "believen" is an equivalent to "wünschen". A German could say, in short, "Sie wünschen?" and with the correct tone and body language it wouldn't be rude. You could say the same about Dutch; tone and body language are very important in communication (I have autism and am in an autism support group where this was recently addressed wink.)
Or perhaps rather "what would you like to order", but shorter. A German translation would end up with "Was möchten Sie haben?" though the Dutch one you mentioned cleverly avoids "du vs Sie" aka (in Dutch) tutoyeren [1]. I find it weak; get over yourself and treat the customer as such. Heck, how about having pride in treating your customer well? Something thoroughly lacking in The Netherlands. And I get it; sometimes you're tired while working such job or it is late or a bad day but this isn't that; it is systematic, and rather rampant in "Randstad" (big cities in Holland).
The Germans use "bitte" a lot more, and are always formal in situations where the Dutch have swapped to "jij/je". Especially Vodafone Netherlands (who got their helpdesk ironically in Maastricht) is so obviously using "jij/je" on their support pages. Cringeworthy! Hello?! I am your customer not your acquaintance!! Also compare for example casual restaurants in Germany and The Netherlands.
It isn't that these rules of using "u" don't exist in Dutch; they do. Its just -slowly but surely- being used less and less with a turning point around the (wild) '70s.
[1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutoyeren
For me, the main thing is that the Dutch simply don't layer their speech whereas in most other cultures there is huge difference between what's being said and what is really meant by that.
In Dutch culture that basically doesn't exist except at levels where it's inevitable (politics, upper management) and even there it's much less subtle than it would be elsewhere and you need to carefully calibrate to see if your conversation partner picks up on it or not.
Given that there is no such double/hidden layer to use it's no surprise that we inevitably became more blunt and direct.
Perhaps it's a result from our long history as traders and the realization we can't possibly manage double/hidden layers for all the cultures we interacted with and thus ended up throwing out the concept altogether.
That was my thought as well. Trade languages are always intentionally simplified and essentially impossible to use for dropping indirect hints. I believe this is very much a feature, not a bug. It substantially reduces opportunities for cross cultural misunderstandings and faux pas.
Apropos of nothing, I really liked the Dutch proverb in the article "Just be normal. That's crazy enough."
It doesn't cover everything, but it does play its part.
Hear hear.
Guess which of them lives by the mantra of being 'as direct as they want'?
edited...
I live in a culture where being direct is somewhat frowned upon. Not only "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything" but sometimes "if you don't have anything nice to say, make something up". People avoid confronting each other with what they think and want to the point where they'll express the exact opposite, at best adding subtle, passive-aggressive hints as to what they really mean and using irony to avoid responsibility. I guess the burden of confronting people is understood as higher than the burden of constantly having to second guess what at surface seems sincere, to a greater degree than in other, more "direct" cultures.
This can be very excluding to people who didn't grow up here. People that travel here briefly will probably get the impression that we are very nice and welcoming, but if you stay here for long you'll probably find the occasional direct asshole refreshingly simple to dismiss as just that.
That's not to say that being direct is inherently better than being indirect. Particularly the interpretation of "direct" that boils down to "I'll say whatever I want the moment I think of it even though I know that no one wants to hear it". But it's a misinterpretation, really. If I am a considerate person, being direct will reflect that. Before I comment on your shoes I will consider that you probably like them yourself and that it's not very important to me to express that I don't. If you asked me what I thought of them and I didn't tell you what I think, I would consider that rude.
You’re intellectually lazy and oversimplifying a complex issue. You likely either lack social awareness or have a total lack of understanding of how minorities are bullied and made to feel worthless (because your views are so bland as to cause no offense, and you are not a member of any minority).
Let's try.
I think you should improve your grammar.
[ :) ]
And of course, it's good that this is open for everyone to see.
If you think my views are "bland", you haven't got a clue, and of course, you are a bully.
Good chat. Cheers.
Thing is, being open / honest sometimes triggers emotion and does not stimulate discussion or progress.
My experience (source: being Dutch / Swiss-German) is that it really really matters not only what is being said or even how true it is, a very important aspect is what / how the receiver interprets the message. When I am with my Dutch (Amsterdammer) family and friends, we are direct in a very specific way about specific subjects. Being with my Swiss-German family and friends we are too: but on different subjects and in different wording.
Just like humor translates lousy, so do nuance and social etiquettes.
I agree there are often situation where it would be helpful if people would be more direct.
However I think there are situations where it’s better to either avoid the issue entirely, or take a less direct approach. That might be the case with those who have radically different views to us, or are members of a minority where taking a direct approach might be misinterpreted as overly agressive, or could make them feel otherwise unwelcome.
Hmm...
Do you even realize there is a difference?
To me it is actually kind of ironic that the continual equating of "plain truth, even if it causes offense" with "intending to cause harm by intensional bullying masquerading as being truthful" has "progressed" [sic] so far as that people who hold these views truly can't tell the difference any longer.
I just don’t think it’s helpful, or advances the discussion to say them the way I did (or at all). I said them that way to illustrate a point.
You’ve failed to grasp this point. Being direct is good sometimes, but not always. And sometimes being “direct” is used to mask bullying behavior.
The “google manifesto” is one such example. I’d guess you consider it “being direct”?
I realize that it can be hard to bracket out one's reactive emotions when the internet is doing its provocation thing, but we need everyone here to try. Our common interest in having a site that doesn't suck needs to take precedence over our annoyance at each other's ideological views.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
Could you please read https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16288896? Your comments are increasingly vandalizing this site, and it's dismaying.
That's a bannable attack on HN. I'm not going to ban you because the thread is about "directness". On HN, however, it is not ok to be a direct asshole, so would you please not post like this here?
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
You're going to experience the dutch directness firsthand.
Sometimes I wonder if this directness thing isn't just a myth started by the British, for whom the norm is politeness often verging on pure and simple hypocrisy.
When one cannot be polite, soft spoken, considerate, or just lacks tact, one can always go the Dutch way. Why bother?
https://bridgesandtangents.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/engli...
Currently living in Amsterdam, and the experience is much different than what you get in/with people from the Hague, Utrecht, Bossem...
When working with Americans we had to sugar coat so much so noone was embarassed or we didn't step on the toes of the American workers.
Maybe this was just my experience.
But alt right is (afaik) much stronger in Britain than in the Netherlands. It follows that Dutch people either aren't as direct as the article claims or that alt right sentiment isn't being suppressed.
You are assuming that the only reason for _not_ being in the alt-right, is the fear of offending someone. I would argue that this is exactly the inverse in real life.
If issues are discussed openly, then you often find that you can reach a middle ground through discussion.
The second premise is also incorrect, since there _is_ a large alt-right faction in the Netherlands. To all intents and purposes the second largest political party is an alt-right party.
Sincerely, a neighbor guilty of too much of that pointless silent judging
My pet peeve is people playing music out or having calls on speakerphone despite the sound quality being terrible. Not just transportation but in general.
People are pretty decent on trains here in LA, though they're terrible about sitting all over the stairs or staying to the right on an escalator.
The British really have it down. Back in the day on the Tube it might be crowded and steamy but you could hear a pin drop.
You'll readily hear one Dutch person tell another who's talking loudly in the quiet carriage of the train to hush up.
Mostly people tend to be fairly quiet and ignore other people while traveling, unless they already have a conversation partner.
Although I'm not a Dutch speaker I'd suggest that would be "What will you have?".
But the phrase "What do you want?" is the closes normal translation, not counting the politeness forms.
We have some of the worst waiters; our (Dutch people) views of equality as being one of the most important things in society, render us unable to serve people, or to be served by others in fact. There always is some awkwardness with regards to the position of the server and the person being served. That is also why we have resolved into over automating everything in restaurants and why most waiting staff are students. Compare this to countries like France and Italy where waiting is a true profession.
In line with the 'people from Amsterdam are the most direct': I think "people from Amsterdam are the worst" is probably a more accurate statement. People who aren't from Amsterdam often state 'Amsterdam is a great city, too bad of all of those people who live there'.
I was once with an Icelandic friend who absentmindedly snapped while attempting to get a Dutch waiter's attention. While my friend meant nothing by it and certainly didn't intend to offend, he got a very direct "don't ever do that, I'm not your servant" rebuke from the waiter.
The waiter's rebuke would never have happened in the US for example. If anything they might have apologized for being inattentive.
Side note: De Bekeerde Suster in Amsterdam has friendly waiters. It's become my go to spot for that exact reason.
Dutch directness at its finest.
And thank you for trying to learn the language of your destination, that alone should get you a lot of credit with the locals.
That's weird, I always hear that people in Rotterdam are the most direct ones within Netherlands.
It's funny to read this article where someone gives an example that instead of giving loads of reasons to see a doctor you should ask to see a doctor. To me it's entirely strange you don't just ask for it. It comes across as being not too bright (why don't you conclude this yourself instead of talking endlessly about it with me).
I work with Danish people, they're pretty direct as well. It quite frustrates me if there's some issue and someone keeps on complaining/discussing with random people instead of raising it with the person who has the ability to make a change. I highly appreciate my style of working.
I've worked with people from all over the world and likely annoyed quite a few of them. That said, usually once they grasp that they can tell me things straightforwardly they tend to appreciate it.
(real life) Example: Me entering a tram in Amsterdam asking conductor: I need to go to this square... Amsterdam Conductor: yeah so??
Me entering a tram in Rotterdam asking conductor: I need to go to this square... Rotterdam Conductor: I'm not sure if you really should go there.
Rotterdam is a lot more direct than Amsterdam.
Interesting, because that's how it's expected to be done where I come from(Poland). Even "better" - the person on the other end will often interrupt you with a follow-up question to the the statement you hesitated to say.
I'm from the North, if that makes any difference. I do tend to view Southerners as generally a bit less direct.
I am from The Netherlands and I'd say this article paints a bit rose-tinted glasses plus anecdotal evidence so allow me to present a can of nuances.
For example, the directness phenomenon isn't as widespread as it is everywhere in The Netherlands. I'm originally from the more rural south (a Catholic area) and its very much different than where I live now (Amsterdam Area). South is more.. "Burgundian" and less direct. Both have their charms but its annoying when outsiders equal Amsterdam or (big cities in) Holland with The Netherlands.
An example where directness backfires: when I go to a restaurant in Germany or when I get my train ticket checked in Germany I feel treated more like a gentleman. Service is flat out better over there. I'd suggest to consider this to be attributed to "Deutsche Gründlichkeit" but I'm not so arrogant to assume there are no other possible reasons. Anthropology is rather complex...
Another example of rose-tinted glasses is "Many of the older houses in the Netherlands have big windows, allowing visitors – if they so wish – to peep inside." everywhere I look there's tools used to close the windows be it small or large. And they're often used. Another typical thing in The Netherlands is that gardens are walled to denote which part is who's.
Or this one: "The Netherlands is unique in the way it treats topics such as prostitution, drugs and euthanasia." Perhaps the 3 of them as a package, but Christian CDA made mushrooms illegal in the '00s, coffeeshops are getting closed and are not allowed to be too close to schools (good luck with dense areas), and the Red Light District is less red nowadays. A country like Portugal also has decriminalized drugs. Euthenasia is also getting adopted more often in other countries (let us not forget Belgium and Canada [2]), and btw it has very strict rules in The Netherlands. The Christians dislike it as well.
"Proverbs such as ‘Doe maar normaal, dan ben je al gek genoeg’ (just be normal, that’s already crazy enough) or ‘Stek je hoofd niet boven het maaiveld uit’ (don’t put your head above the ground) are there to remind us that we are all the same." These stem very much from Calvinism.
Leo Blokhuis made a 8 part series "Achter De Dijken" about Calvinism in The Netherlands [3]. I found it very good. It is in Dutch and probably geolocked to be only available for Dutch IPs, but series like these should work over VPN or be available on Usenet. Also, other public broadcast television might've bought the rights and provided translation, I don't know. Maybe it is even possible to suggest it to your public broadcast TV station? Even that series, however, is a caricature/generalisation.
[1] Or as others provided with nuance: "a big city in Holland"
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_euthanasia
[3] https://www.kro-ncrv.nl/achterdedijken
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/wiki/providers
I think that the real key to Dutch etiquette is efficiency. If it makes things go faster, it's good. You hold a door open for someone (irrespective of gender) only if it's efficient for both of you to do so. Directness is more efficient than beating around the bush, honesty is more efficient than a comfortable lie when it concerns an issue that's going to have to be dealt with at some point. Picking fights with people is not efficient. That's a waste of everybody's time.
Because it's inefficient to waste time on a stupid idea. I disagree. Most Dutch also don't talk loudly on the train. In fact, the Dutch are pretty good at minding their own business and ignoring whatever other people are doing. Bothering other people with your business is wasting their time. Of course jerks exist, but excessive noise is usually not appreciated. This may actually be a case of politeness. Maybe you've got everything under control and are perfectly capable of picking up your own things. If not, people stand ready to help, but if you don't ask, they will assume you don't need help. They don't want to intrude on your business unasked. Unless it becomes obvious that you do need help (but the Bystander Effect can be strong). Yet the Dutch do like to relax and enjoy themselves. We're world champions at part-time work, and hate the 50-hour weeks that Americans too often work. In fact, I don't think any country in Europe works less hours per year than we do. We don't want to waste time on silly nonsense, unless it's silly nonsense that we enjoy.Though if there's one taboo, it's definitely conspicuous displays of wealth. Millionaires better pretend they're normal people like the rest of us. We've always been a very egalitarian society. Even in the 18th century, our transport network of river barges transported all passengers in the same cabin, whether they were nobility or peasants.
Not entirely. A topic can be "bespreekbaar", but it's technically also possible for a topic to be "onbespreekbaar": not up for discussion. Usually, people tend to want to make things "bespreekbaar", because that enables honest discussion and more efficient sharing of info...Dutch directnesss was something that would freeze the blood in my veins at first but after getting the hang of it, i’ve come to enjoy it (they can be direct but another good thing is you can be direct back), because if they don’t have patience for BS, neither do i.