Ask HN: Why has Apple's software quality steadily gone downhill?
I've been using Apple products since 2003, starting with the iBook G4. Since then, it seems as if Apple's software quality has steadily gone downhill. My iBook wasn't the fastest, but it was certainly the most steadfast and predictable Apple computer I've owned.
Now, on my 2017 MacBook Pro running High Sierra, I get random freezes, slow/failed wakes from sleep, kernel panics, strange APFS behavior, trackpad unresponsiveness, etc.
iOS 11 is even worse, freezing during calls and sometimes keeping calls active even when the display shows no trace of an active call.
What gives? What, internally (to Apple), causes this?
50 comments
[ 4.4 ms ] story [ 16.8 ms ] threadMy answer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16265512
A glimpse into what's going on in my opinion can be seen in the long awaited new Pro line of Macbooks. Many point out these were not Pro, they are (exceedingly) under powered overpriced shiny Macbooks. Machines which are still outperformed by their predecessors. Apple has stopped focusing on the tech community because we are expensive hard to please customers.
So they focus their efforts making products for regular people, who might use the product once in a while. And by focus their efforts I mean they make products people want to buy but that aren't necessarily great. Software is one aspect of that. If you are not a power user you'll likely never run into any of the issues you mention.
e: Oh boo hoo
I agree with you that Apple's Pro products are lacking, but I think they're lacking for different reasons to different people. I couldn't care less about my next MBP having a faster CPU. Others need that. I'd prefer software that works, no Touch Bar, FaceID, a fantastic keyboard, and much longer battery life. Or a surprise benefit from Apple--I shouldn't have to come up with what I want. Apple's design/r&d team should make me gawk at it. That's their job, and they're failing.
Most software I've seen is the opposite: consumer grade software has to work well, because a lot of times it's optional—if it doesn't do a thing well, users will just not use it. Whereas professional grade software is much rougher around the edges, because if doing a thing takes extra steps, users will take those extra steps. Because they need to accomplish their goal, they're a lot more forgiving of problems along the way, so long as they get to where they need to go.
YMMV, but it would seem like there's something wrong with your system that's not just run-of-the-mill.
That being said, I HATE the keyboard and the touchbar is just dumb. The battery life is worse as well (although still way better than my Windows laptops). I wish I just had my old machine back to be honest.
That keyboard though.... ass
YMMV but I'm having a great time here.
The High Sierra root bug was embarrassing, among other issues. But bugs happen...
I also don't like the newer and thinner MBP's. I would prefer for the "Pro" line that they had more USB and other ports, and I absolutely don't want a Touch Bar.
Not sure what I'm going to do for my next laptop. Try and keep this one going for as long as possible.
At my desk it’s no problem to leave dongles attached to the monitors.
As usual, Apple has removed a standard before the industry is quite done with it, but as usual, there is a better way to get the job done.
Experienced the issue trying out typeracer.com in a few apple stores to get a feel of the new keyboard - some keys just don't work on current MBP models.
So much so that Apple has created an official guide on how to correctly clean the keyboard, instead of making a keyboard that didn't need this new feature.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662
I really do hope the keyboard issue is resolved, eventually my MBP will have to be updated.
UI is worse, for example it takes more clicks to get to my podcast’s timeline of episodes. I constantly feel lost.
It’s buggy like hell, - Podcasts don’t update as well. Before, I could load the app, swipe the fist screen, and all my new podcasts would start loading (with the efficiency and reliability of Apps updates). Now, I walk out the front door and a plus icon jumps in and the podcast isn’t downloaded.
cloud/arrow and circle/square are more intuitive. plus just pops up to tell me I’m SOL.
Yesterday I clicked through on a download in listen now to the episode screen, started play, and I had a different icon/episode in the ‘playing now’ zone and a completely different file playing.
These issues infuriate me every time I use Podcasts. Don’t get me started about WiFi preference to pick the Cable Company’s WiFi hot spot over my home even when the phone is less than 4’ away!
There'e way more customers who are beginners, than advanced or expert users present.. until they all become more skilled.
Apple's products, and software aim to just work in the most basic way for the greatest number of people. Anything that is too far our of the range for basic users is either killed (Server.App), or sufficiently neutered.
If we start looking through the lens of creating customers who start out as beginners with Apple and grow with them...
Apple makes the iPhone so easy, it's like a feature phone. The tough App Store rules - to ensure the most stable experience for the majority of beginner and basic users.
Apple could design AppleTV off the charts - but we still have those largely basic menus, so basic that anyone can use an AppleTV easier than a cable box.
iPad Pro's could support mice for advanced users to use that amazing horsepower? No, let's go out of our way to remove it.
Mac Mini updates? Delay it until the average home is ready to have a new iHomeAutomationHub server once.
iMac Pro Updates? Probably have to sell them for $18K ea to start making it worthwhile.
Underpowered Macbooks, or Macbooks Airs? Perfect for selling lots beginners to intermediates.
MacOS, too, has fallen behind in it's UI innovation and polish. Apple's revenue largely comes from mobile, so rumors of MacOS going the way of a consistent iOS interface might not be too crazy.
What to do while the world levels up their digital skills?
We can wait, try to manage it ourselves, or switch to currently more innovative gear at the expense of other things.
MacOS has so many basic UI tweaks to install that one has to buy an app like Bartender to hide the icons. There is lots of work completed under the hood, no doublt, but not in a day to day way that we touch or use.
The main reason I'm still on Sierra is I can't handle the 4-6 month trauma of having a current OS like High Sierra that beyond the forced APFS snags, appears flaky. This is after experiencing every upgrade breaking with Panther, Tiger, leopard, Lion, Mavericks, El Capitan. Only Sierra was smooth.
It's just easier to wait to buy a mid cycle Macbook pro with the OS rattlesnakes having bit everyone else for a few years first.
I do need Bartender like you seem to. But I’ve seen I’m the exception amongst my beginner and advanced friends vs the norm.
There's also a problem with every app thinking they're at the center of one's existence and should start on bootup, desktop icon, and status bar icon. But that's likely aimed at beginners, and not advanced or power users.
With my iphone se it's a completely different story. Decided to contact Apple customer support because my iphone was frequently freezing up in the past weeks. Got told I need to replace the battery for 30euro (which to be fair is a decent price), but the battery still seems pretty good to me and the phone is less than 2 years old.
now? I am so annoyed by my iphones persistent buggy problems performing normal phone-like operations (texting, typing) that I will probably switch. ugh.
few other anecdotal observations: their genius bar reservation web page literally redirects to an error page half the time! and not like a "planned" error page with a cute whale or something, but one with weird server logs that obviously are not meant for the end user
half the time i try to use the app store or sync apple ID I get an inscrutable error
i'm not sure if I gave up on apple, or they gave up on me! end rant
There is still a UI bug that I must file because seemingly no one but me deactivated LCD font smoothing and discovered that text is printed in bold if it contains non-ASCII characters. It’s infuriating that it is still not fixed as apparently no one has noticed since the release of High Sierra. I stopped reporting bugs because often it’s a duplicate and gets closed which is demotivating. But I can't know beforehand because their bug tracker is closed.
For example, I filed a bug report for Continuity not supporting TouchID/FaceID, so that you could unlock macOS from your iDevice. It was closed as a duplicate, and when I asked for the parents' status, I was told it was it was closed as "Not to be Addressed".
I tried using iCloud for Windows, but the sync behavior is unreliable, and I found myself without critical files on more than one occasion. This is not to mention the absurd background CPU usage.
iTunes on Windows is even worse. The built-in updater seems to fail on every major release, i.e. for 12.4,12.5,12.6 etc. Even under normal use, there are times when iTunes just refuses to launch. The background processes are running, but there’s nothing on my screen.
I’ve resorted to delaying my iTunes software updates until absolutely necessary, and then doing a clean install of iTunes. This is not to mention the myriad issues with authorizing computers to download previously purchased content, or the fact that iTunes will quite literally prompt you for the same password multiple times, with no UI notification telling you that you’ve entered it correctly or incorrectly.
If Apple just made their QA efforts a minuscule fraction of the size of their efforts to get an edge in mobile chips and supply-chain logistics -- they could easily start to appear godlike again. Bad QA can be debilitating. Mediocre QA can be an anchor around your neck. Awesome QA is some kind of overpowered buff multiplier! It's exactly the sort of competitive advantage that a company like Apple would want to cultivate! So many of their competitors would fall sway to the cultural issues that go against QA getting the power to work to its full potential, making it an advantage that's very difficult to replicate.
I think if Apple could do something like this, this alone would redeem them in the eyes of its customers -- Make it Just Work Again! (Please don't walk around in that hat!)
if you play podcast while driving and meanwhile, the alarm is triggered. After you have dismissed the alarm, the audio won't come back. I suspect this is unrelated to my car, to be honest. As I disconnected my phone from the car, the issue was still there, no podcast audio.
> @tim_cook, What is Apple doing about the increasing bugs across Apple's software?
I still remember pulling hair out because of Microsoft's bugs and just being able to get stuff done on Apple's software. I used to joke that PCs forced people to become experts because of bugs, whereas it was just fun to get stuff done on Apple products.
Today's Apple UX on iOS is just broken in so many places—friction everywhere. On a daily basis I encounter bugs.
What happened?
Without a bigger change in the organization, these problems just cannot be solved. It's not about money, which Apple has a lot of (and even without tax benefits of repatriation, can borrow very easily). It's also about the top management's reluctance to change how the company works.
[1]: https://stratechery.com/2016/apples-organizational-crossroad...
My MacBook had initially started restarting when it encountered any significant load. I got the logic board replaced and instead it started sometimes not waking from sleep correctly, producing "MCA data" kernel panics.
In the end, it got narrowed to the fact that I had an external monitor attached whilst closing the lid of the MacBook. This issue had been introduced earlier than my initial repair, but had only started happening for me post-repair because the repairer had taken the liberty of updating my software and exposed me to the bug that Apple had introduced.
Mostly now I’m happy with the hardware still using mbp for development, iPad Air, & iPhone; but have noticed the degrade in software stability on all devices.
OS updates make me nervous and don’t address the issues I run into : general performance, responsiveness, Bluetooth device connectivity and hibernation.
I like tqkxzugoaupvwqr’s theory - maybe Apple is more focused on a swift rewrite and unified OS. In general all software and os releases feel rushed and incomplete.
It’s relentless. It takes insane amounts of work. And you’re on a fixed schedule.