Well crap, he beat me to the punch. I was going to write an article on data ownership and how we should be able to maintain our own data and only let networks curate and syndicate.
My idea was that you should manage your own data, and have them tagged with the rights to broadcast or syndicate.
The gist of it would be:
If I write something as a tweet, wordpress would be the first to pick it up and possibly manage it. WP would be more of a CMS for your data. Write a tweet, it can be shown on your blog, and possibly to twitter and/or facebook. This would work for other content types. The value of twitter and fb is the network affect and curration.
I've recently become niggled by a very similar idea of a personal data store with a layer for managing rights of broadcast and syndication.
A simple example is that I would want any food delivery app, or web-connected restaurant to know my dietary data instantly, but not really much else. Any new-media site I connect to I want to instantly know what kind of content I find boring or distracting, but not really anything else.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. This whole concept is a tin-foil pipe dream. It will never see mainstream adoption because data can be really profitable. What business would choose to eliminate a revenue stream for no reason like this?
Plus, as a user, I don't like analytic data being collected. As a software provider, analytics drive nearly every decision.
I like the spirit of what Solid is trying to do, but as long as targeted advertising works better than randomizing every ad you see (it always will), there's zero reason for any profit-seeking entity to choose it.
https://indieweb.org is more or less about this. May I suggest that instead of writing about it, implement something that's actually usable for others as well? There had been enough writing, but very little actual solution.
I'm not sure if this can really help users protect their data. Tons of personal data is already out there, and companies that want it can buy it fairly readily and cheaply. Users have shown a willingness to exchange personal data for useful applications. Tons of data isn't even individual; who owns your personal social graph?
PII is the most circulated currency on the internet and anything that stands between companies and their cashflow (privacy/data ownership projects like this) seems like it would be a nonstarter.
I don't think those are invalid points, but one consideration is that if a standardized format for encapsulating and controlling PII did emerge and was adopted, the value of the previously-released personal data would decay over time.
That is, if your current PII suggests that you are a fan of (Brand X) right now, it is more valuable than if it shows you were a fan of (Brand X) 5, 10, 20 years ago. There will still be correlations that can be drawn from historical data, and some data's value doesn't decay as a function of time (DOB, for example), but it would still be an incremental improvement over the current system.
As technologists, I don't think throwing up our hands and saying "It's too [late|difficult|expensive] to solve this problem!" is the right solution in most cases.
Not immediately, as others have pointed out, but those who develop products that incorporate this approach, and those who embrace it swiftly, will provide us choices.
For example, if "MeWe" were to incorporate this I think they would grow faster and at some point put enough pressure on Facebook to do the same.
Wishing that the landing page had a clearer explanation of how Solid provides a means for the owner of the data to control who can access their data, people and applications, as well as what the process of moving ones data from a given store to another.
This project looks like it has huge potential, I just want to be able to understand at a glance what privacy controls are in place without reading the source code before committing my personal information.
EDIT:
Found the specifications documentation linked to from some of the example apps[0][1]. It would be great to have more of this information on the landing page for the project.
I was about to say "but there's no information" but then you added the Github links. Thanks!
I don't see why that's not referenced on the main page. I mean it might be a marketing tool to get funding, but it still needs to have links to same prototypes for the technical audience (even a little github cat logo to the repo would have been good).
Even a non-tech audience would understand a link to "see the spec" and knows what Github is, even if they wouldn't be able to understand any of what's there.
Reading the landing page left my scratching my head too. Great lofty goals and all, but zero informat on _how._ The fact that you had to go to links from the example kind of makes it a failure.
Exactly. "Solid (derived from "social linked data") is a proposed set of conventions and tools for building decentralized social applications based on Linked Data principles. Solid is modular and extensible and it relies as much as possible on existing W3C standards and protocols." That sounds like a pitch from some ICO. The site has the buzzwords. It's got the neckbeards. What it doesn't have is a convincing use case. It comes across as some really complicated scheme for address book synchronization.
They have three sample applications, yet all you can click on is somebody's blog entry. Clicking on the "publishing" app gets you a screenshot of the abstract of someone's paper. It's a single page web site, like all the cool kids have now. Clicking on the top menu items just scrolls the page.
It has MIT and Bernars-Lee behind it, so it can't be totally bogus. If those names weren't on this, I'd assume it was from someone either clueless or crooked.
There's a decent description of Solid on Github.[1] From there, you can see the real problem. It's only useful if the big players adopt it. Which they won't, because it breaks their walled gardens.
This looks like is another try at Bernars-Lee's "semantic web" - hammer as much content as possible into standard formats so it can be machine processed. This is an old idea, and tends to break down once you get beyond contact lists and library catalogs.
There have been major efforts to make that work in the business sector, where it's called "electronic data interchange", and parties want to exchange purchase orders, invoices, and bills of lading.[2] It's worth looking at that area to see how hard this is for even simple-seeming problems like that. And they have cooperation - buyer, seller, and shipper all want that data to flow smoothly between the parties. Trying to do this in today's world of competing closed web empires is much tougher.
The medical data records people have it even worse, I hear.
I don't understand. If you already agree on a shared vocabulary, then you're not using new words. Context is more present in the long-form un-pre-processed text than in the short-form text.
Why do they do that, again? I'm not arguing against summaries. Just saying that if machines can read as well or better than humans, then machine-readable in the sense of using a simplified ontology, grammar, or alphabet is unnecessary.
My point is that even humans make fewer mistakes when they're reading an established form structure with pre-defined fields over long-form text. Hence you'd expect a machine to process them better as well, even if it could read like a human.
My experience in companies is that data exchange, data reuse and data referential are a nightmare. My mental model of a company is an insane amount of customized ETL, on top of web services, obscure IDs in each data/service silo representing the same thing, data exchange format poorly (un:)documented that require massive boilerplate code. I think it is the middle age.
I have been a huge fan of the LinkedOpenData. And its Lack of adoption profoundly disturbs me. I still don't understand how people can use the Knowledge graph of Google daily, and discard the need for something similar in companies, or widely available for OpenData.
SOLID is a spec that TBL & co (like Dmitri Zagidulin) have worked on. It is quite good and based on linked data. It was mostly worked on the other year, but I think it is only now starting to be marketed - which means TBL thinks it is ready for people to implement.
We wound up implementing something very similar, about the same time (I wish I had known about SOLID earlier), except using CRDTs and graphs (which can support Linked Data). Our implementation is live and functioning already, including:
- Realtime updates across a decentralized network.
- End-to-end encryption with P2P identities.
- Backs up to localStorage/disk (if you Electron-ify/etc. it)
- Can also be backed up by remote storage services.
It is as if IPFS and Firebase had a love child, and we've tried really hard to reduce the API to just a couple lines of code to get fully working P2P social netowrking dApps in place.
I know nothing about the subject, how does file removal work in decentralized networks? I understand once something is on the internet it's out of your control but what if I accidentally post a naked picture when I'm trying to sell something on decentralized-bay and I try to delete it immediately or a few minutes after? What about illegal content that I don't want to redistribute without my knowledge?
Um... it is hard. Really hard. Let us just hope you don't have WiFi turned on, and can revert your changes first!
In our case, we have a tombstone delete method. So as long as every peer that saved your data (and people aren't gonna just save it for free) comes online at some point, after you've nulled/tombstoned the data, then it will be deleted.
This is only true because of our CRDT system that lets you update/mutate data. It is not true or a general property of other decentralized systems though.
Can anyone explain what this actually is? I get that it's apparently an exciting new project, but what actually is it? A framework? A programming library? A data specification? I honestly can't tell.
They refer to "applications built using the Solid stack" at one point, which implies that it's an application platform. But elsewhere they talk about how it's "a proposed set of conventions and tools", which implies that it's an interchange data format.
I'm not sure either what exactly this is, but it reminds me of https://blockstack.org/ when it comes to each user owning their own data storage which the app runs on.
Blockstack essentially lets you pick for example Dropbox as the datastore and an app would save files in a directory on your Dropbox instead of a server controlled by the app developer.
Solid seems to talk about also keeping track of your social connections. So I suppose it also tracks people's profile data and public keys locally?
I heard a funny story once about an interaction between Tim Berners-Lee and Ryan Shea. Woulda been about 4 years ago and I can see how it might have prompted TBL to take a crack at the same problem. Maybe you're right?
> Can anyone explain what this actually is? I get that it's apparently an exciting new project, but what actually is it? A framework? A programming library? A data specification? I honestly can't tell.
Apparently it's a drop-in replacement for Google Wave.
its not entirely false though, he has expressed regret in the past about how it worked out. the web isn't really a great idea but it caught on anyway. arguably its been the cause of a new scams, hacks and certain politicians getting into office.
I have no idea what they are planing but my simple approach to the problem would be, to let browsers offer an API to store their users data in the cloud.
That might sound a little abstract, so I will give an example: A year ago I built an PWA which had the ability to use a WebDAV server as a backend to store data and sync multiple clients. While some might argue that WebDAV is not the perfect protocol, most of its disadvantages can be worked around. The real issue is that the user has to enter his credentials to every app which wants to store some data for him.
In my opinion, that is something browsers could make a lot easier and just let the user grant/refuse access to the 'cloud-storage'. That cloud storage would need a standardized protocol (e.g. WebDAV) to manage its access, but that way browsers could offer web apps a large storage and the user could select its own storage provider (in the browser settings).
Most users would probably stay with Google Drive or Dropbox, but at least their data would not be stuck in the walled gardens of the various web app providers and some might even choose to store their data in a Nextcloud (at least that is what I do with my PWA).
Really what we need is first-class IPFS support in Firefox/Chromium.
Img tags should have an href and an ipfs option. The browser can than chose to pull from either source, depending on user preferences or which one is faster. Users can be prompted if they want to store/serve that data in their own ipfs cache.
I think the FF59 plans for IPFS just make it easier to interface with your existing IPFS server (if it's running). Making it first class would be a game changer, but don't expect to see it in Chromium or Webkit any time soon.
Could you please elaborate on how IPFS would solve the problem? As far as I understand IPFS it is just like a public cloud. So either you run your own node (which would be similar to running your own server in terms of owning your data) or you upload to the network in which case you would not care on which server the data would live (similar to uploading an ?encrypted? file to Dropbox?). The real difference is how files are served as soon as you request one.
So what I don't understand is how it would make app developers give you the control over your data?
Regarding your img-tag remarks: what should href and ipfs attributes do? I mean href is an attribute used for linking, not for loading data like the src attribute and adding attributes for different protocols isn't a good idea either as for that use case we have URLs. So whats wrong with?
<img src="ipfs://example.com/cat.jpg">
I never used IPFS so I might completely miss the point as I just read about it and saw a few videos, so please tell me if I misunderstood something.
Or maybe `some-new-attr` could be a 2nd src? In any case, it's only to deal with asset distribution. One of the challenges with something like YouTube is simply the infrastructure to host all that content, as well as content/videos disappearing when YouTube decides they don't want to host it. With IPFS, you could reduce the server load on the content creator and also give the asset permanency if it's popular enough to be seen/rehosted by others.
The img tag example isn't that great of an example I'll admit. But it could eventually be extended to permanence of the entire page/site. Although there are already better tools suited for that, like ZeroNet.
Closest comparison I can draw is with urbit[0], mainly in regard to data ownership. Beyond that there's not much else that's similar between them. I'm disappointed by the lack of information on Solid.
Google, facebook, and big data will kill any chance of a standardized linked data format or protocol. Google's main product isn't search, it's you. Facebook doesn't care about messaging or social apps, they care about mining as much data about you as possible. If they had to ask for this data upfront and in a clear way they probably wouldn't exist today.
Currently when faced with regulation they can go with a straight face and say that it's technically not possible to let users own their own data. Google has to control the data it uses so as to operate its business, and privacy is just an unfortunate casualty of that. Projects like this (if successful) demonstrate that you can actually have your cake and eat it too and will (at least potentially) give regulators a lot more a leeway to force the hand of companies.
Well they will kill any big changes, but as tech people, we need to make small changes to start with. I've add LetsEncrypt to all my personal websites. I'm currently working on getting my Masterdon server up. I have a little docker system to self host things.
You could write some scripts to publish your personal block to ZeroNet, and add some "also available on Zeronet" links to the regular HTTP version.
It takes little steps and it has to start with us in the tech community. Even if our distributed tools don't grow, at least we can say we tried.
While it's true that Google and the like benefit from closed or partially closed data ecosystems and formats, as I've pointed out in another comment elsewhere in this thread [0], they've at least been pushing for the development and adoption of linked data formats like JSON-LD and vocabularies like schema.org, and they're using both of those pretty extensively in products like search and Gmail.
It's a far cry from things like Solid's vision of a fully decentralized web of linked data, but at least it's something.
Although I agree with the aims of the project, trying to understand it leads you down a rabbit hole of complexity that ultimately never pays off. Ontology, vocabulary, RDFa, OWL, FOAF, etc.
I assume this is a continuation of - or somehow related to - the semantic web project that W3C spent a lot of time spinning its wheels on back in the early '00s. Back in the day, I bought into the hype that this would be the next big thing, but it never gained traction. Nobody understood it. It was too meta.
Trying to do anything with semantic web specifications was like writing an academic treatise on the philosophy of meaning, and ultimately delivered no more value to users than a hacked up <table> layout.
I have to agree - once I was in the not so comfortable position of having to deny funding for this - you don't say no to TBL lightheartedly, but SOLID doesn't offer anything that couldn't be done more simply with existing tools and techniques. It's byzantine and ROI is unclear.
How so? Can existing tools achieve the goals that SOLID is trying to deliver?
Distributed is hard, but it's not impossible.
The Whole Internet has become so centralized that it's about due for something to come along that will blow it up and move power back to the edges of the network. That's what happen when mini-computers shattered centralized mainframes, and then when PCs shattered centralized minis. The Internet leveraged all of those PCs to move even farther out to the edge for a time and now it's back to a centralized system again.
You almost sound like the voice of the status quo tech investment establishment. I'm not saying you are, but back in the late 80's we were repeatedly turned down for funding using almost the same language that you're using.
And I agree, from that point of view whatever the next BIG thing that comes along and shatters the existing system will look at first like a bad investment whose ROI is unclear.
I don't know if SOLID is the next big thing or not. From what I've seen from the spec I don't think it's likely. But these ideas which have been around for 20 years are starting to gain traction among the smartest people in the industry.
As Kevin Kelly said, something can be inevitable, but no one knows the form it will take. Distributed is one of those things. We don't know what it will look like when it does take off, but most of the pieces are in place and waiting for the right implementation at the right time to catch fire and move power back to the edge of the network again. ROI will soon follow after that as all of the late comers pile on with the only goal of making money and try to stop others from making money from it. And so the cycle will start again towards centralization again.
Arguments following this pattern are often made to defend technologies: The current state A is bad, and we should aim for state B. Technology X aims for state B, so X is good.
This pattern is fundamentally flawed. X needs to be useful on its own, no further assumptions made. Otherwise it will never get traction, regardless how much we wish B to come true.
Yes, and rightfully so. But to convince someone that SOLID is the right approach for decentralization, one needs to refer to the specific technology, and to specific use cases where specific user groups have an incentive to switch to it.
We know from the mainly failed P2P wave that just wishing for decentralization is not enough.
Yeah these ideas have been floating around for 20 years. It sounds great in theory, but the devil is in the details. And the whole problem with "owning your data" is that copying data is essentially free. So your only actual recourse is to invoke the power of government, which is unlikely to be on your side versus Google, Facebook, the credit bureaus, and law enforcement.
I don't think the semantic web is hard to understand. The semantic web is a distributed database that everyone can contribute to and access. It allows you to write queries to explore the data on the web, rather than having to browse through it.
For those that are new to the idea of the semantic web, DBpedia is a decent example:
However, metadata is really useful in some contexts. Say you have a huge collection of scientific data from a particle accelerator, astronomy database, satellite imagery or sensors.
How do you set that up for search?
How do you make it worthwhile for academics to release data like this and get credit as they do for writing a paper?
How do you have provenance for derived data?
How do you set up a unique identifier so the data can be referenced and found as required?
You have data about the data. You have metadata. If you're smart you standardize it and bingo. You have a use for metadata.
Semantic web is not that hard to understand. But facebook/google/etc will NEVER adopt it. They are not interested in opening (meta)data in highly precise and machine readable form to 3rd parties. So the only adopters are geeks/scientists.
I can see where you're coming from, and your point of view is certainly not baseless, but I just thought I'd point out that at least Google has pushed for the development and adoption of linked data formats like JSON-LD [0] and standardized vocabularies like schema.org [1]. They make use of it for "knowledge graph" [2] features, as well as in Gmail for what they call "actions and highlights" [3] (things like displaying flight reservation details, for instance).
Yes, Google would love for you to mark up your data so that they can better consume it. But good luck trying to get Google to make any of their data more interoperable. Google Plus, YouTube, Google Photos... they do have somewhat limited APIs, but they are not federated and standardized. Semantic web in, limited proprietary access out. Walled gardens are a business tactic, no semantic web technology can change that.
I think you are correct. Semantic web is a decent technology. It has some rough edges, but it has solved the technical aspect of the data interoperability problem. The only barrier is a social/political/business one: privatizing and monetizing user data is the business model of most of Silicon Valley. I always say that a federated protocol like email would never be adopted today, the business incentives just do not exist.
The W3C docs are very developer unfriendly additionaly there is a significant issue with OWA vs the default mindset of CWA. Also OWL and RFFS not being the type of schema a dev is used to and until very recently no option to actually verify and control the shape of the data (there is SHACL now). Also no sensible examples of using the stack, using FOAF to publish open data isn’t the job for most devs! Finally the rubbish tooling, clunky DBs and only viable option is Java makes the whole thing a quagmire... however it has tons of value if you can get past all that friction, Enterprise Linked Data is an order of magnitude better than alternatives.
In Dec 2016, I visited Tim Berners-Lee and his team up at MIT with my cofounder. Our company had a lot of overlap with the Solid project, and we wanted to explore working together.
That didn't really happen, because our approach was different at the end of the day. We wanted to raise VC money and get a lot of user adoption, and they were focusing more on promoting RDF, SPARQL, ontologies and so on:
However, I did meet a lot of cool people at the W3C and now some of them are our advisors!
PS: If you watch that youtube video, let me know what you think. Is it a clear explanation? Do you feel there is a need for this? It's all available online already btw.
The reason there isn't a clear explanation is because there probably isn't even a functioning beta. Hell, there isn't even a drafted design depicting what it is. This is part of a PR hype machine. Put MIT and Berners Lee on a project page to drum up interest.
Unvoting this one. Not going to help them achieve their mission.
What were the features of your, and/or others' web browsers, that distinguished them from TBL's work?
Mind: there were several other alternatives out there, with Viola being amongst the more interesting -- it aimed at becoming a suite of web-related tools and capabilities, based on what I've seen.
I am referring to things that had no name and never escaped the confines of the corporate environment where they were built. Mine was for browsing nuclear power plants. Had full vector graphics rendering engine and a limited but capable scripting engine.
The phrase World Wide Web is great because while it remained ambiguous it still perfectly summarized the ambitious nature of the project. Also you can’t beat that alliteration.
Calling this project “Solid” reeks of “unsinkable ship.”
Can't speak for the rest of the world, but in the U.S. people would completely panic if the Govt had a extensive registry with everyone's info, and that's exactly what we have except a couple corporations have it.
Nobody really cares cause the email is free.
The bright side.. Greed usually tends to overreach at some point, after which may come more public outcry.
> in the U.S. people would completely panic if the Govt had a extensive registry with everyone's info
Not in the same vein as google having my internet based data, but the us govt very clearly and publicly has many such extensive registries that are widely known and relied on parts of the country's basic infrastructure.
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[ 5.0 ms ] story [ 206 ms ] thread'Web developer' as in 'developer of the web' :-)
The gist of it would be:
If I write something as a tweet, wordpress would be the first to pick it up and possibly manage it. WP would be more of a CMS for your data. Write a tweet, it can be shown on your blog, and possibly to twitter and/or facebook. This would work for other content types. The value of twitter and fb is the network affect and curration.
A simple example is that I would want any food delivery app, or web-connected restaurant to know my dietary data instantly, but not really much else. Any new-media site I connect to I want to instantly know what kind of content I find boring or distracting, but not really anything else.
Lol.
Bigger and more influential apps will always roll you into their corner. It's what every single vendor would do. It's what you would do.
Plus, as a user, I don't like analytic data being collected. As a software provider, analytics drive nearly every decision.
I like the spirit of what Solid is trying to do, but as long as targeted advertising works better than randomizing every ad you see (it always will), there's zero reason for any profit-seeking entity to choose it.
PII is the most circulated currency on the internet and anything that stands between companies and their cashflow (privacy/data ownership projects like this) seems like it would be a nonstarter.
That is, if your current PII suggests that you are a fan of (Brand X) right now, it is more valuable than if it shows you were a fan of (Brand X) 5, 10, 20 years ago. There will still be correlations that can be drawn from historical data, and some data's value doesn't decay as a function of time (DOB, for example), but it would still be an incremental improvement over the current system.
As technologists, I don't think throwing up our hands and saying "It's too [late|difficult|expensive] to solve this problem!" is the right solution in most cases.
Such a campaign against unsanctioned data would be a likely consequence of the success of solid or a similar protocol.
For example, if "MeWe" were to incorporate this I think they would grow faster and at some point put enough pressure on Facebook to do the same.
>> The project aims to radically change the way Web applications work today, resulting in true data ownership as well as improved privacy.
What is the product? How does it achieve its means?
This project looks like it has huge potential, I just want to be able to understand at a glance what privacy controls are in place without reading the source code before committing my personal information.
EDIT:
Found the specifications documentation linked to from some of the example apps[0][1]. It would be great to have more of this information on the landing page for the project.
[0] https://github.com/solid/solid-spec
[1] https://github.com/solid/solid/blob/master/README.md
I'm sure when they come back to this they'll change the SHA1 to SHA256 (I'd hope) .. might just do that myself and submit a pull request.
What's wrong with RSA? DSA has been depreciated in most tools. Do you think they should use ECDSA?
I was about to say "but there's no information" but then you added the Github links. Thanks!
I don't see why that's not referenced on the main page. I mean it might be a marketing tool to get funding, but it still needs to have links to same prototypes for the technical audience (even a little github cat logo to the repo would have been good).
Even a non-tech audience would understand a link to "see the spec" and knows what Github is, even if they wouldn't be able to understand any of what's there.
They have three sample applications, yet all you can click on is somebody's blog entry. Clicking on the "publishing" app gets you a screenshot of the abstract of someone's paper. It's a single page web site, like all the cool kids have now. Clicking on the top menu items just scrolls the page.
It has MIT and Bernars-Lee behind it, so it can't be totally bogus. If those names weren't on this, I'd assume it was from someone either clueless or crooked.
There's a decent description of Solid on Github.[1] From there, you can see the real problem. It's only useful if the big players adopt it. Which they won't, because it breaks their walled gardens.
This looks like is another try at Bernars-Lee's "semantic web" - hammer as much content as possible into standard formats so it can be machine processed. This is an old idea, and tends to break down once you get beyond contact lists and library catalogs.
There have been major efforts to make that work in the business sector, where it's called "electronic data interchange", and parties want to exchange purchase orders, invoices, and bills of lading.[2] It's worth looking at that area to see how hard this is for even simple-seeming problems like that. And they have cooperation - buyer, seller, and shipper all want that data to flow smoothly between the parties. Trying to do this in today's world of competing closed web empires is much tougher.
The medical data records people have it even worse, I hear.
[1] https://github.com/solid/solid-tutorial-intro
[2] https://www.edibasics.com/what-is-edi/
We wound up implementing something very similar, about the same time (I wish I had known about SOLID earlier), except using CRDTs and graphs (which can support Linked Data). Our implementation is live and functioning already, including:
- Realtime updates across a decentralized network.
- End-to-end encryption with P2P identities.
- Backs up to localStorage/disk (if you Electron-ify/etc. it) - Can also be backed up by remote storage services.
It is as if IPFS and Firebase had a love child, and we've tried really hard to reduce the API to just a couple lines of code to get fully working P2P social netowrking dApps in place.
Check out:
- Intro http://hackernoon.com/so-you-want-to-build-a-p2p-twitter-wit...
- 4min interactive coding tutorial https://scrimba.com/c/c2gBgt4
In our case, we have a tombstone delete method. So as long as every peer that saved your data (and people aren't gonna just save it for free) comes online at some point, after you've nulled/tombstoned the data, then it will be deleted.
This is only true because of our CRDT system that lets you update/mutate data. It is not true or a general property of other decentralized systems though.
They refer to "applications built using the Solid stack" at one point, which implies that it's an application platform. But elsewhere they talk about how it's "a proposed set of conventions and tools", which implies that it's an interchange data format.
What am I missing?
Blockstack essentially lets you pick for example Dropbox as the datastore and an app would save files in a directory on your Dropbox instead of a server controlled by the app developer.
Solid seems to talk about also keeping track of your social connections. So I suppose it also tracks people's profile data and public keys locally?
this should answer all of these questions
Apparently it's a drop-in replacement for Google Wave.
;)
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
its not entirely false though, he has expressed regret in the past about how it worked out. the web isn't really a great idea but it caught on anyway. arguably its been the cause of a new scams, hacks and certain politicians getting into office.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/15/tim-berne...
i do remember alan kay not being too happy about the whole situation too
https://www.fastcompany.com/40435064/what-alan-kay-thinks-ab...
https://github.com/solid/solid
That might sound a little abstract, so I will give an example: A year ago I built an PWA which had the ability to use a WebDAV server as a backend to store data and sync multiple clients. While some might argue that WebDAV is not the perfect protocol, most of its disadvantages can be worked around. The real issue is that the user has to enter his credentials to every app which wants to store some data for him.
In my opinion, that is something browsers could make a lot easier and just let the user grant/refuse access to the 'cloud-storage'. That cloud storage would need a standardized protocol (e.g. WebDAV) to manage its access, but that way browsers could offer web apps a large storage and the user could select its own storage provider (in the browser settings).
Most users would probably stay with Google Drive or Dropbox, but at least their data would not be stuck in the walled gardens of the various web app providers and some might even choose to store their data in a Nextcloud (at least that is what I do with my PWA).
https://github.com/w3c/ServiceWorker/issues/1188
Img tags should have an href and an ipfs option. The browser can than chose to pull from either source, depending on user preferences or which one is faster. Users can be prompted if they want to store/serve that data in their own ipfs cache.
I think the FF59 plans for IPFS just make it easier to interface with your existing IPFS server (if it's running). Making it first class would be a game changer, but don't expect to see it in Chromium or Webkit any time soon.
So what I don't understand is how it would make app developers give you the control over your data?
Regarding your img-tag remarks: what should href and ipfs attributes do? I mean href is an attribute used for linking, not for loading data like the src attribute and adding attributes for different protocols isn't a good idea either as for that use case we have URLs. So whats wrong with?
I never used IPFS so I might completely miss the point as I just read about it and saw a few videos, so please tell me if I misunderstood something.The img tag example isn't that great of an example I'll admit. But it could eventually be extended to permanence of the entire page/site. Although there are already better tools suited for that, like ZeroNet.
[0] https://urbit.org/
Currently when faced with regulation they can go with a straight face and say that it's technically not possible to let users own their own data. Google has to control the data it uses so as to operate its business, and privacy is just an unfortunate casualty of that. Projects like this (if successful) demonstrate that you can actually have your cake and eat it too and will (at least potentially) give regulators a lot more a leeway to force the hand of companies.
You could write some scripts to publish your personal block to ZeroNet, and add some "also available on Zeronet" links to the regular HTTP version.
It takes little steps and it has to start with us in the tech community. Even if our distributed tools don't grow, at least we can say we tried.
It's a far cry from things like Solid's vision of a fully decentralized web of linked data, but at least it's something.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16356193
I assume this is a continuation of - or somehow related to - the semantic web project that W3C spent a lot of time spinning its wheels on back in the early '00s. Back in the day, I bought into the hype that this would be the next big thing, but it never gained traction. Nobody understood it. It was too meta.
Trying to do anything with semantic web specifications was like writing an academic treatise on the philosophy of meaning, and ultimately delivered no more value to users than a hacked up <table> layout.
How so? Can existing tools achieve the goals that SOLID is trying to deliver?
Distributed is hard, but it's not impossible.
The Whole Internet has become so centralized that it's about due for something to come along that will blow it up and move power back to the edges of the network. That's what happen when mini-computers shattered centralized mainframes, and then when PCs shattered centralized minis. The Internet leveraged all of those PCs to move even farther out to the edge for a time and now it's back to a centralized system again.
You almost sound like the voice of the status quo tech investment establishment. I'm not saying you are, but back in the late 80's we were repeatedly turned down for funding using almost the same language that you're using.
And I agree, from that point of view whatever the next BIG thing that comes along and shatters the existing system will look at first like a bad investment whose ROI is unclear.
I don't know if SOLID is the next big thing or not. From what I've seen from the spec I don't think it's likely. But these ideas which have been around for 20 years are starting to gain traction among the smartest people in the industry.
As Kevin Kelly said, something can be inevitable, but no one knows the form it will take. Distributed is one of those things. We don't know what it will look like when it does take off, but most of the pieces are in place and waiting for the right implementation at the right time to catch fire and move power back to the edge of the network again. ROI will soon follow after that as all of the late comers pile on with the only goal of making money and try to stop others from making money from it. And so the cycle will start again towards centralization again.
This pattern is fundamentally flawed. X needs to be useful on its own, no further assumptions made. Otherwise it will never get traction, regardless how much we wish B to come true.
We know from the mainly failed P2P wave that just wishing for decentralization is not enough.
I don't think the semantic web is hard to understand. The semantic web is a distributed database that everyone can contribute to and access. It allows you to write queries to explore the data on the web, rather than having to browse through it.
For those that are new to the idea of the semantic web, DBpedia is a decent example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBpedia
The BBC website also makes use of semantic web technologies:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/academy/technology/software-engineering...
https://people.well.com/user/doctorow/metacrap.htm
However, metadata is really useful in some contexts. Say you have a huge collection of scientific data from a particle accelerator, astronomy database, satellite imagery or sensors.
How do you set that up for search?
How do you make it worthwhile for academics to release data like this and get credit as they do for writing a paper?
How do you have provenance for derived data?
How do you set up a unique identifier so the data can be referenced and found as required?
You have data about the data. You have metadata. If you're smart you standardize it and bingo. You have a use for metadata.
https://kt.cern/technologies/quasar-framework-opc-ua-server-...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPC_Unified_Architecture
https://opcfoundation.org/about/opc-technologies/opc-ua/
The information model is quite flexible, and not tied to any specific platform... but it's not for the faint of heart.
[0] https://json-ld.org/
[1] https://schema.org/
[2] https://developers.google.com/knowledge-graph/
[3] https://developers.google.com/gmail/markup/getting-started
Why do I have to search for information?
Why is it, that all those shitty, shiny looking new homepages are the same. NO CONTENT.
Ok, I'm done. Not interested anymore.
That didn't really happen, because our approach was different at the end of the day. We wanted to raise VC money and get a lot of user adoption, and they were focusing more on promoting RDF, SPARQL, ontologies and so on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ1O_gmPneI
However, I did meet a lot of cool people at the W3C and now some of them are our advisors!
PS: If you watch that youtube video, let me know what you think. Is it a clear explanation? Do you feel there is a need for this? It's all available online already btw.
Unvoting this one. Not going to help them achieve their mission.
What were the features of your, and/or others' web browsers, that distinguished them from TBL's work?
Mind: there were several other alternatives out there, with Viola being amongst the more interesting -- it aimed at becoming a suite of web-related tools and capabilities, based on what I've seen.
http://www.viola.org/
It seems like like a scam.
Calling this project “Solid” reeks of “unsinkable ship.”
Nobody really cares cause the email is free.
The bright side.. Greed usually tends to overreach at some point, after which may come more public outcry.
Not in the same vein as google having my internet based data, but the us govt very clearly and publicly has many such extensive registries that are widely known and relied on parts of the country's basic infrastructure.