I have never witnessed this kind of behavior first hand at any of the companies I've worked, and there are very few people I've worked with I can imagine perpetrating this kind of behavior. I really think there is a percentage of bad apples in tech that are really ruining it for the rest of us. And tech would be better for not just women, but also most men, if we could root them out.
> “He was about six foot three, and he told me I was not going to leave,” Holmes recalled. “He put his hand around my neck and tried to choke me.”
Or this?
> “He gets close to my face and says, ‘You’re so fucking dumb, and you don’t know shit. The only thing you’re good for is being taken out to the back parking lot and being raped.’”
(These are direct quotes from the article, by the way.)
This is tone deaf. You'd like it if women as large as linebackers for the NFL (to illustrate the natural size and strength difference) 'joked' they were going to take you into the parking lot and rape you? Or when one gets really drunk and gets pissed that you're not going to sleep with her and starts to strangle you?
I really hope for your sake that your self esteem isn't that poor, you deserve to be treated with respect and not have to fear for your life when going about daily business.
Most men would welcome sexual advances from people they were sexually interested in. They would not from those they are not, and they would very much not appreciate the escalations to physical violence by larger, stronger people who they reject when they are not interested.
As a male I'm pretty sure this is an illusion. Go to Pattaya Thailand and walk down the infamous Soi 6 every day for a week. I've been there, done that. Tell me how many nights you will last until you don't want to go there anymore.
I understand you, it certainly feels good in your imagination but once you get hit on every day it becomes annoying. E.g. it is extremely annoying if you just want to walk through Soi 6 to reach the beach and every yard another woman walks up to you and tries to grab your hand or get hold of you.
It's even worse if you are trying to get some work done. Imagine that every time you want to grab a coffee while you are still thinking about a problem, some lady walks up and starts a chat "Hey honey, how is it going?"
I'm old (almost 56) and retired so I'm perhaps out of touch. Have things changed this much?
I just asked my wife (who I met at Silicon Graphics) to read the article and asked her if things were like that at SGI. She said no, there was little to none of this. I'm sure, people being people, there was some but her memory matches mine, it wasn't rampant, there were no "24/7 sexual advances" that just wasn't a thing. Or if it was we both didn't notice it.
I made the comment that I didn't have enough game to harass anyone like what is described in the article and I didn't know any programmers that were like that. My wife thinks that maybe the programmers of today are really different than they were 20-30 years ago.
I dunno, I wonder if this is just normal life at every company now or if these are some companies with a worse culture than others. I sure hope these are not the norm. If these stories are the norm we're headed for a depressing world where men and women don't like each other very much. It's hard to start there and end up as partners.
It seems like a lot of the fun of flirting would be viewed as harassment, which is a shame, flirting is fun when both people are into it. You can do it without any sexual intent at all, I used flirt shamelessly with my admin at SGI. I got called on it when I stopped (I got busy with a project). My boss's boss called me in and asked me "why did you stop flirting with Kim?" I explained and he said "Kim is going through rough divorce, she could really use the attention, please find some time to give her some." So I did, but it was harmless fun, we both knew we were just playing, it wasn't going anywhere. Would that be OK in today's climate? Seems like no.
This book seems like it has serious problems with exaggeration. A previous excerpt scandalously claimed that VC parties are drug-fueled sex orgies. As far as I know, none of the scandalous aspects were corroborated, and the party in question sounded pretty corporate in independent accounts (though not so corporate to have drink tickets).
Yeah but dating coworkers was fine back then. And flirting was OK. Hell, I was seeing 3 other woman at the same company in the same building, they all knew about each other and were fine with it [1], when my wife swooped in and decided she was serious. She sent those other women packing :)
Articles like the one from OP make it sound like the women and men are at war, just doesn't seem like fun time to be dating. But I'm not in that mix so maybe all this is a bunch of outliers, who clearly aren't having fun. Maybe there are a bunch of men and women in their 20's and 30's getting along just fine. That article paints a pretty different picture. Maybe it's just that there are some asshole men who are making life miserable and they are finally getting some attention. The article made it sound like all the men are assholes, "sexual advances 24/7" etc.
[1] Yeah, I know I said in the first reply that I had no game. And I didn't but around 32 I gave up on women, I sucked at it, so I stopped trying. Guess what? The Larry that put women on a pedestal was unattractive, but the Larry that ignored women was hugely attractive. I kinda wish I had gotten that memo a decade earlier :(
> In this exclusive excerpt from her new book, Brotopia, which comes out today
They've been spoon-feeding these excerpts for some time, in order to hype the book. Since it's actually out now, it would be better to just have post for a review of it, rather than for each artifact of its PR campaign.
At the very least the title should be updated to indicate it's from "Brotopia."
21 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 71.1 ms ] thread> “He was about six foot three, and he told me I was not going to leave,” Holmes recalled. “He put his hand around my neck and tried to choke me.”
Or this?
> “He gets close to my face and says, ‘You’re so fucking dumb, and you don’t know shit. The only thing you’re good for is being taken out to the back parking lot and being raped.’”
(These are direct quotes from the article, by the way.)
If you can cite stats indicating "most men" like to be choked and threatened with sexual violence, feel free.
I really hope for your sake that your self esteem isn't that poor, you deserve to be treated with respect and not have to fear for your life when going about daily business.
I understand you, it certainly feels good in your imagination but once you get hit on every day it becomes annoying. E.g. it is extremely annoying if you just want to walk through Soi 6 to reach the beach and every yard another woman walks up to you and tries to grab your hand or get hold of you.
It's even worse if you are trying to get some work done. Imagine that every time you want to grab a coffee while you are still thinking about a problem, some lady walks up and starts a chat "Hey honey, how is it going?"
I just asked my wife (who I met at Silicon Graphics) to read the article and asked her if things were like that at SGI. She said no, there was little to none of this. I'm sure, people being people, there was some but her memory matches mine, it wasn't rampant, there were no "24/7 sexual advances" that just wasn't a thing. Or if it was we both didn't notice it.
I made the comment that I didn't have enough game to harass anyone like what is described in the article and I didn't know any programmers that were like that. My wife thinks that maybe the programmers of today are really different than they were 20-30 years ago.
I dunno, I wonder if this is just normal life at every company now or if these are some companies with a worse culture than others. I sure hope these are not the norm. If these stories are the norm we're headed for a depressing world where men and women don't like each other very much. It's hard to start there and end up as partners.
It seems like a lot of the fun of flirting would be viewed as harassment, which is a shame, flirting is fun when both people are into it. You can do it without any sexual intent at all, I used flirt shamelessly with my admin at SGI. I got called on it when I stopped (I got busy with a project). My boss's boss called me in and asked me "why did you stop flirting with Kim?" I explained and he said "Kim is going through rough divorce, she could really use the attention, please find some time to give her some." So I did, but it was harmless fun, we both knew we were just playing, it wasn't going anywhere. Would that be OK in today's climate? Seems like no.
Articles like the one from OP make it sound like the women and men are at war, just doesn't seem like fun time to be dating. But I'm not in that mix so maybe all this is a bunch of outliers, who clearly aren't having fun. Maybe there are a bunch of men and women in their 20's and 30's getting along just fine. That article paints a pretty different picture. Maybe it's just that there are some asshole men who are making life miserable and they are finally getting some attention. The article made it sound like all the men are assholes, "sexual advances 24/7" etc.
[1] Yeah, I know I said in the first reply that I had no game. And I didn't but around 32 I gave up on women, I sucked at it, so I stopped trying. Guess what? The Larry that put women on a pedestal was unattractive, but the Larry that ignored women was hugely attractive. I kinda wish I had gotten that memo a decade earlier :(
That's an understatement: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2018/02/12/it...
Preaching to a choir is divisive and counterproductive.
They've been spoon-feeding these excerpts for some time, in order to hype the book. Since it's actually out now, it would be better to just have post for a review of it, rather than for each artifact of its PR campaign.
At the very least the title should be updated to indicate it's from "Brotopia."