Launch HN: Nutrigene (YC W18) – Tailor-made liquid supplements using health data
I'm a biophysicist and epigeneticist who spent more than 10 years studying how environmental factors influence the expression of our genes, focusing on the mechanism of metabolites (including vitamins) in both plants and humans. Min has spent more than 10 years as a personal trainer, health coach and behavioral scientist working in the food and consumer product goods space.
This all started because I wanted to be healthier and was frustrated with a lack of answers from our healthcare system, which only sees our data through a “survival” lens (oh you don’t need to be in urgent care or surgery now). I wanted to live beyond just surviving to truly thrive, by reducing chronic pain and fatigue and feeling more energetic. As a PhD in Biophysic and Epigenetics, my natural state to a frustrating, unsolved problem is to start conducting experiments and collecting data on myself. So I started getting involved in tracking and monitoring (using many Google sheets), through collecting blood panels, heart monitor data, and wearables for my activity and sleep. I’ve experimented with different remedies and diets to recover my health after a relatively difficult pregnancy. Eventually this led to the idea for a startup that would make it easy for people to take action based on their health data, by coming up with tailor-made products for the individual. We're beginning with high-quality liquid vitamins.
Why vitamins? Despite trying to eat as well as possible every day, I found it tough to do as a startup founder and new mom. And the data showed it’s not just me. Almost 90% of Americans are deficient in something or another, because we can’t eat perfectly every day, and recent research shows from NHANES and CDC shows that more Americans are not reaching their recommended daily allowances.
Why liquid supplements? The supplements industry is broken - there’s lack of quality, transparency and attention to purity. The majority of the vitamins and supplements you buy through Amazon, or Walgreens degrade, 50% after 6 months on shelves. Our goal is to send you the freshest, ready-made liquid supplements in our lab that are 1) unadulterated (no fillers such as starch or sugar), 2) pure liquid to maximize absorption (not breaking down any sort of tablet or softgel coating e.g. gelatin), and 3) an easier form factor to swallow than a pill. Plus, it’s easier to measure the purity of the supplements on mass spectrophotometry and HPLC in liquid form.
Why tailor-made? One of our advisors, Professor Bruce Hollis, has spent more than four decades studying Vitamin D deficiencies that show how we should be taking more Vitamin D than the RDA, in particular Vitamin D3, but off the shelf producers still use outdated information. The isoform of the vitamin matters, and we’ve incorporated hundreds of other papers across other vitamins, minerals and amino acids to provide the right unique mix to each person. We "tailor-make" it for you based on two factors. (1) Body composition. A 150lb man should not be getting the same dose as a 210lb man. Different fat and muscle composition determines whether fat soluble gets stored or how vitamins get metabolized. Most of this research is done in the nutritional sports space. (2) Genetics. The type of vitamin matters (isoform). Certain people who are more Vitamin D deficient should take Vitamin D3 which is one step away from metabolizing to its active form, 25-hydroxycholecalciferol, in our bodies. Another common vitamin that has been an issue for many women in particular is folic acid. A set of SNP mutations prevent anyone from properly methylating folic acid and hence many practitioners recommend taking methylfolate and same goes for Vitamin B12 (cobalamin), which its methyl for...
126 comments
[ 3.6 ms ] story [ 172 ms ] threadhttps://www.vitamindcouncil.org/
Yes, there might be some benefits from little tweaks to our nutritional profile. But is this a priority compared to the massive benefits one gets from simply cutting out refined sugar, refined carbs, and other junk foods, and doing moderate exercise?
The idea of a supplement tailored to the individual seems to
a) vastly overestimate what we know about the body
b) be suspiciously aligned to marketing. It's easy to flatter people by saying they are unique individuals and need specialized tests and an expensive, specialized program to be healthy. Like, that the reason why you're unhealthy is because you've got this blood type and you can't eat beets on Tuesdays but you can correct it with this expensive supplement. And it doesn't have to do with your entire lifestyle.
We are targeting people who have taken a step towards reducing their refine sugar, carbs, and proper exercise. Our customers typically work out and eat healthy, but are finding that supplementation is working for them to reach their health goals. So they aren't replacing a meal, but adding on top of their current habits and diets to boost their energy, for example. But if you look are high-quality liquid vitamins on the market now, it's about on average $20 per bottle per vitamin that would last you about month. And you'll probably have to buy a micro-scale to properly weight out the right amount.
The body is super complex, and at the moment, the field of nutritional science is still making strides in becoming a more validated science. What we are doing is bridging this gap between research and consumers who are currently hacking and see if we as a community can provide more insights into nutritional science.
That non sequitur of a response doesn't do much to allay the concerns you're responding to.
Personally, my doubts about the supplement industry aren't about the purity of the vitamin supplements, but the effectiveness of supplements in general.
What we are doing is finding ways to quantify how supplements are working for people. And we strive for is finding those metrics to better understand how people can improve in their health.
One reason: metabolic interactions mean that proportionality matters, for example between A and D. Multivitamins are sometimes optimized for cost and pill size at the expense of this. Another reason is that people have varying baselines based on their diet, as well as how much micronutrient synthesis is happening in their gut. Because each vitamin (aka crucial micronutrient) has a dose-response curve, both too little or too much is bad; the book tries to chart out what is a good range for each and how you can achieve that through diet, lifestyle, and supplements. It is by no means a perfect book, but it is the best combination of approachable, credible, and well-researched information that I've come across.
The complexity of untangling these kinds of interactions is why nutrition research often seems to yield results that contradict earlier results. Biology is complex, but that does not mean progress in understanding it is impossible.
A whole food plant based diet is mostly carbs and is generally regarded as the healthiest diet available.
The field of nutritional science is as valid as any and saying it ia becoming more validated science suggests to me you havent been exposed to the thousands of high quality studies being published every year. This is a huge red card for someone who is proposing to intervene with peoples health.
Im sorry to be skeptical but there are way too many alarm bells associated with this venture, most too small to mention individually but the pattern adds up.
For anyone looking for more legitimate bridge between the science and us "consumers" I recommend http://nutrition facts.org/
But back to the topic, my mistake for generalizing the statements above. For some who need to reduce or should I say "monitor" their carb intake, such as myself, I had to drastically reduce my carb intake due to diabetes. And sugars are particularly a huge culprit for this problem, but I have to significantly reduce consuming potatoes, rice, pasta, even healthy fruits. So for many in these categories reducing their carbs is necessary.
The space of nutritional science does contain lots of research but some are very limiting and over simplified. An example, I've seen studies of arginine consumption and how that effects the aortic heart stiffness. Some of the studies only lasted for 120 minutes and concluded that there weren't any effects. But many many longitudinal clinical trials have shown improvement in heart health through decrease in heart stiffness. For us, we still have to comb through all the papers of published studies and make sure the conclusions made are just an oversimplification of lack of rigor in those studies.
But yes, we want to make the data and information more transparent as well. Thank you for recommending that site. We've definitely checked it out but will check it out again.
(2) Where is your peer reviewed research demonstrating that your system leads to measurable health improvements?
Your company, like virtually every supplement company, is a scam that plays on the fears and ignorance of its customers. You have an obvious conflict of interest in that you both recommend and sale vitamins. At minimum, to be an ethical health care provider, you should either be a manufacturer of vitamins or a service that recommends them.
Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News. We ban accounts that do this, regardless of whom you're attacking, so please don't do it again.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
A confidence trickster or con artist is a very specific type of endeavor and it should absolutely be ruled out that this isn't what's going on here.
Personally im on the fence but it is most certainly possible that this is the truth here and discourse on this should be encouraged.
Great claims (as we have here) require great evidence (not supplied) and one possible explanation is that the founder is using his or her genuine credentials in a confidence trickster way.
Its a fine line but the core of this discussion is in fact about the legitimacy of this individual presenting as an expert, so you may want to ease off in this case regarding your interpretation of this being a 'personal attack'.
(1) Our 10x claim is on efficacy of absorption as for liquids typically easier to absorb than tablets or soft gels. I will submit that article soon. Apologize for not being clear.
(2) As for measurable health improvements we are collecting those data through our customers and research done with our advisors at the moment. We have some preliminary results but are currently under review. Happy to share that once it is published.
We would love to get into vitamin manufacturing as we do see this epidemic of not validating purity of vitamins happening further down the line. We are partnering with third parties to help us provide certificate of analysis for the supplements we purchase from our manufacturers.
Everything about this product sets off red flags; no mention of sourcing, zero certificates of analysis and no peer reviewed research.
The "science" section only covers 'freshness' and 'personalization'.
This seems like a stat padding exercise for YC.
Do you have any scientific research to back up that claim?
I still agree with that comment and stand by the message I wanted to send, but I see how my reply fosters a culture of attacks, so I'm removing it.
(To treis, if you didn't see it - it was a link to a comment you once made)
It is as unpolitical as you can get - a volunteer group doing an ongoing literature review of nutrition papers and publishing their condensed findings in video and constantly updated book form.
So yes it does aim to be objective with regards to science, thats the whole point. Which you would know if you spent more than 5 minutes researching before blessing the world with your knowledge.
What is the likelihood that this is the result of an evenhanded look at a broad range of scientific literature, vs. a careful cherry-picking of evidence to support a predetermined conclusion?
Here’s a trick: if you’re the only person who thinks a complex science is clear cut and obvious, maybe you’re the one who is missing something.
https://www.thatnerdysciencegirl.com/2015/11/13/the-case-aga...
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illnes...
https://www.reddit.com/r/nutrition/comments/6b1ik6/seriously...
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/3uiriu/how_biased_is...
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Either way, calling OP and the idea BS is part of how the market decides.
The skepticism isn’t the purity of the vitamins, it’s that they work at all (and safely).
> We are targeting people who have taken a step towards reducing their refine sugar, carbs, and proper exercise.
Who you’re targeting isn’t relevant to the raised concern.
> Our customers typically work out and eat healthy, but are finding that supplementation is working for them to reach their health goals.
Please provide evidence that “supplementation is working for them.”
> But if you look are high-quality liquid vitamins on the market now, it's about on average $20 per bottle per vitamin that would last you about month. And you'll probably have to buy a micro-scale to properly weight out the right amount.
Steering the question away from raised concern, which is whether or not supplements are beneficial at all, not how much they cost.
> The body is super complex, and at the moment, the field of nutritional science is still making strides in becoming a more validated science.
Read: there’s no rigorous evidence to show that supplements are beneficial, but we’re pushing them anyway.
> What we are doing is bridging this gap between research and consumers who are currently hacking and see if we as a community can provide more insights into nutritional science.
Read: There’s a community of body hackers who are currently spending huge (yuge) amounts of money for supplements and we want to get in on the juicy profits.
You're doing the usual handwavey thing, which is to say that you know that it's not a good product today, but somehow you're going to take the profits from selling the unproven thing today, and do something better later, maybe...?
That might be borderline acceptable if you're doing a software startup but sounds horribly cavalier for someone pushing a health product.
It's also totally unclear what harm is caused by "fillers" such that their presence is a concern. Or what research backs up the improvement of personalizing vitamin dosages over taking a multi-vitamin - would love to see that study.
The first google search about the condition related to folate methylation took me to some pseudo-scientific naturopathic website that amongst other claims, made this one "it turns out that many of us (estimated at 45%) have at least one [mutation in this gene]". That this source / website is the first thing I find when searching for what you mention does not look good. Let's further break down this claim: it's unclear that having a mutation means that there is any actual loss in function. The statement implies it. But I can't find any evidence, anywhere, that this is true. I also can't find any evidence on the NIH website (https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/MTHFR#conditions) about the condition you mention or what it's prevalence might actually be - everything listed there is a pretty serious disease and you would know it if you had one of those conditions.
I'm honestly somewhat disgusted that YC chose to accept such a morally and scientifically terrible product to peddle. Even if selling bogus supplements to uninformed consumers is a good business.
What we are attempting to do in the next few weeks is:
1) Adding a feature that includes comparisons in dosages with our service versus standard multi-vitamin pills.
2) And yes to the US only customers. Do you suggest we put it on the home page? That would be easy to do.
I am not sure what kind of problem there can be in shipping supplements, which are unregulated by definition.
The next step is to hook up with HealthKit and monitor my activity and use to inform what to send me next month.
Vit D supplementation can be useful for some people but only really needs to be a relatively blunt instrument in terms of dosage.
Thiamine is important especially for people who drink alcohol, but it is widely supplemented in food.
Im interested in the subject and supportive of any effort to improve peoples health before problems occur, but in a market which is 99% bullshit, misinformation and basically outright fraud, the bar is pretty high to claim to be legit and not be associated with all the scammers. Unfortunately the publicly available information and this post about this company don't even come close.
Good luck but you will need to significantly up your game to come across as legitimate and actually useful.
This is the first time in a while ive questioned the selction of a YC company.
It sounds like what you're looking for is more scientific research to back our claims.
As a PhD myself, it's been hard to not get tangled in the technical details and learn how to convey a simply but very informative information the public.
As for thiamine available in food, my PhD was studying thiamine production in plants and it's heavily regulated depending on what's available in the environment. Even then I've seen people thiamine deficiency in developed countries, which is sad really because people just don't eat properly.
And this is becoming more common with Americans not meeting their RDA (see references below)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2937576/
This looks like a good product and one that I will consider trying when I have more disposable income. I would be more likely to use it if it included blood tests for vitamin deficiencies before coming up with a custom formulation. Is there a reason you aren't doing that?
We don't provide the test directly, but we recommend blood panels taken through life extensions.
We make the supplements the week we plan to ship it. And you should consume our monthly vitamins with the month.
Most of the vitamins right after production (including capping) would degrade on average 50% 6 months after. That's why we are taking the subscription model approach.
You may also be running afoul of FTC truth-in-advertising law, since you are making claims but not disclosing actual ingredients.
I'd be cautious around even "anecdotal" statements around decreasing base heart rate and aortic stiffness. FDA takes these kinds of claims very seriously, and it costs a LOT of money to get the kind of data FDA requires to back these claims up. Essentially every company that has tried marketing "non drugs" to improve clinical outcomes without complying with regulations and generating rigorous data has been shut down, either temporarily or permanently
As you know doctors can make suggestions based on their medical expertise, even for non FDA approved drugs, and in many cases malpractice is the mechanism by which "bad advice" is regulated
Companies are not doctors and do not have that same sort of leeway when giving medical advice. If patients complain, or if your company gets to the point where it is marketing drugs (even if you call them supplements) based on unfounded claims and it seems like it can cause reasonable public health concern, FDA can shut you down overnight
plus if you get some visibility and doctors get the sense you are marketing overly aggressively and making unsubstantiated claims that could hurt patients, they can be quite vocal
you probably know this but based on your answer i couldnt tell. dont mean to be overly critical, but ive seen many companies fail because they are glib re this issue, and when this happens it reflects poorly on the whole sector
not a lawyer or doctor, just an observer
Do you have any plans about protecting them?
What we are doing now is further developing our encryption and HIPAA compliance service to make sure your data at least stays secure.
Check out LabDoor (YC W15), they might be able to help with a lot of testing and insights as you guys grow.
To address the difference between our formulation with liposomal vitamins, the difference is in the formulation of the vitamins working with each other not in the encapsulation. For example, most of packages includes Vitamin D3, calcium, and Vitamin K because calcium and vitamin K helps increase the uptake of Vitamin D3 through interactions with vitamin d receptor.
Ideally, we want to find manufacturers that produces liposomal vitamins, but haven't found any that doesn't use other fillers such as starch and sugar as well. Also not all supplements require an encapsulation process. The rate of vitamin C degradation is the fastest, hence why most vitamin c on the market is sold with liposomal encapsulation.
We are looking into that research right now with our advisors. This is definitely an ongoing research topic especially related to inflammatory diseases and cancer. We aren't making any of those claims yet since it's still hard to interpret these studies in human cell lines and small population in some of the clinical trials (E.g. the study that saw increased efficacy of a cancer drug with vitmin c). We are conducting further investigation and research with PIs that are doing this type of work. But for now, we do not have a consumer product that can measure epigenetic changes dynamically.
Second, yes that's the first genetic differences we are accounting for. My cofounder and I are both female founders with a set of MTHFR SNPs and have had issues with proper methylation of folic acid and even cobalamin. We currently include methylated cobalamin, but have had issues finding manufacturers that provide methylfolate (and not other derivatives such as methyltetrahydrofolic acid).
You're not actually doing any analysis or customization are you?
https://vp9eae2gvh.execute-api.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/test/...
which responds:
"Hello from Lambda"
At which point it shows me my "recommended" packages which are supposedly "tailored to my body". Picking one of those sends me to a payment screen.
This isn't shady or false advertising. This is an out and out scam.
Children age 9 years and older, adults, and pregnant and breast-feeding women who take more than 4,000 IU a day of vitamin D might experience
Nausea Vomiting Poor appetite Constipation Weakness Weight loss Confusion Disorientation Heart rhythm problems Kidney damage
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-vitamin-d/art-2...
Recommending 3900 IU for a 195 lb man is alarmingly close to the level that can cause kidney damage and heart issues. If your model spits out 1,000,000 for a 50,000 lb woman, it probably will go over 4,000 given the right parameters.
Regarding the 1,000,000 Vitamin D response: typically our human customers are not 50,000lbs (a blue whale is typically 40,000lbs). However, it's probably not that unforeseeable if a blue whale has higher requirements for Vitamin D than an average human that's 195lbs. To your point though, we are careful that we do not go grossly over Recommended Daily Allowances, and our formulations reflect clinical research.
it is the data about myself that i really struggle with.
i have health insurance and a doctor, but i don't know what tests to have done or what to do with that information afterwards. i don't even know if i can have these tests done simply by asking?!
does my blood show a deficiency in some vitamin or mineral? do i need to take calcium? is my gut doing great things for my mind and body?
i would pay premium price to figure out the above questions, and would be more likely to pay for a truly customized treatment.
ps - it's a lot of trust required to enter in birthday and personal information for a form. whereas i'd happily take a test with my doctor and then pay for a consultation with a certified medical specialist who puts my results in context of a solution - perhaps needing my weight and age and gender to do that. i it's hard to have that kind of trust with a new startup. in fact it made me trust y'all less to have to enter that info up front just to buy a standard mix of vitamins...
I kind of like this idea, but it seems so half-baked. Why not wait a while to get the product working before posting here?
combine the outright lie of customization with the baseless claims (10X?) and I have no choice but to be extremely disappointed in the ethical choices of you and (sadly) ycombinator for associating themselves with you.
The supplement industry is mostly scams, silicon valley is supposed to do things "differently". Obviously that is not the case here. Same shit business model making money off of ignorant people, different wrapper.
I've interacted with hundreds of elite level athletes who are always looking for an edge. These athletes do not depend on supplements and many avoid them. I would expect these athletes to be on the cutting edge and results to trickle over to 'normal' people. If these athletes who are more in-tune with their bodies than most are avoiding supplements than am not seeing a lot of upside for the average person. If you are deficient or have a medical condition then sure, but the focus should be on healthy eating. Supplements are not going make up for eating poorly and likely just results in expensive urine or placebo effect for most people.
It's hard to debate since everyone is using anecdotal evidence.
We've been frustrated too - because there weren't other supplement companies that were trying to help customers modify dosages, or find out what works for them using a scientific approach. We're not saying we have all of the answers, but that we will discover new findings with you, that can help many more people and fills a gap that the medical system and current off-the-shelf solutions aren't providing.
I also agree with you that elite level athletes typically would use minimal or no supplementation. However, when we interviewed pro athletes, they are also backed by a team of nutritionists, dieticians and coaches that enables them to closely monitor and implement a very strict diet and exercise routine that everyday busy people find impossible to do. We aren't saying everyone needs supplementation, but since 9 out of 10 Americans are deficient according to the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES) under the Center for Disease and Control (CDC), it might be you, and to investigate for yourself. Our customers currently are seeking us for that support as a better alternative than current off-the-shelf solutions.
My point was that athletes are using their bodies in the extreme do not require supplements.
Discovering new findings with me is usually fine, but am nervous when it involves my health.
Sure, here's a CDC report: https://www.cdc.gov/nutritionreport/pdf/Nutrition_Book_compl... as well as this secondary study that summarizes some of the findings https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4822995/.
Summary reference:
"The Nutrition Report has limitations. First, it does not cover information beyond biochemical indicators, such as dietary intake, supplement usage, hematologic measurements, and anthropometric body measurements, which are generally used together with the biomarker information to comprehensively assess nutritional status."
"forfeit insight into the association between variables unique to each individual biomarker"
In the end, what we are doing is using data to see if controlling for purity in supplementation improves people's definition of health. If we can control parameters (purity, vitamin active form, etc.), can we see those changes quantitatively rather than qualitatively.
Thanks for your inquiry.
I hope you find more studies, but the variables such as those mentioned above will make it very difficult to determine causation.
The last answer in your FAQ starts with 'yes' but the question is not a yes or no question.