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Canadian software engineers paid peanuts

26 points by johan_larson ↗ HN
So, I’ve been looking at the differentials in pay for software engineers in the US and Canada. And I gotta tell you, it’s just sad. Here are some figures from Vancouver’s pitch[1] to Amazon for HQ2. Toronto pay is half of Seattle pay. No wonder half of each class from Waterloo heads south.

Market Average Annual Tech Wage Software Engineer (USD)

  Vancouver, BC — $60,107
  Toronto, ON — $62,365
  Atlanta, GA — $92,380
  Boston, MA — $103,979
  Washington, DC — $108,330
  New York, NY — $108,878
  Seattle, WA — $113,906
The question is why the difference is so very broad. Off hand, I suspect the problem is demand. Seattle has two large top-tier tech companies based locally. Toronto has nothing of the sort. There are smaller tech companies, of course, and banks and one outpost of one of the majors. But the deep need to fight for talent just isn't there.

[1] http://www.vancouvereconomic.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Vancouver-Amazon-HQ2-Proposal-Feb-2018.pdf

22 comments

[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 46.8 ms ] thread
techjuice
It's all about supply and demand. The big tech companies want the best engineers in the world and they are willing to pay for them as their value and return on investment is what makes them the top revenue companies in the world. If the companies in Vancouver wanted top talent they would need to increase compensation in terms of salary, bonuses, stock options, etc. and insure the community around the business is modern and high tech.

As a top engineer you have the choice to go where ever the best challenges and compensation are. If you have over 10 years experience in a field and very good at what you do you should be paid exceptional well for it. As the value you bring to the company you work for makes the bottom line meter move upwards and you bring innovation and help move the company forward.

Mix a couple of teams of top quality and value engineers and you get products and services that the entire world wants to use. Talent also attracts talent, so if your company has very well known engineers working there that are very well known and respected in their fields other engineers will follow.

Davidbrcz
Raw figures are worthless without taking into account cost of living, taxes and public services (social security, retirement plan).
johan_larson
If you have more accurate figures, by all means post them. But it's going to take a lot to span a gap this broad.

For what it's worth, both Vancouver and Toronto were rated as "severely unaffordable" in the 14th Annual Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey: 2018.

https://fcpp.org/wp-content/uploads/dhi2018-fcpp.pdf

spoonie
You can consider things like the cost of health care (usually moot as big companies in the US will pay for all of your insurance costs), and education for your kids. What’s the tuition difference between top tier schools in the US and Canada? What about primary school? I hear many people in the US pay to send their kids to private primary and secondary schools. If you are raising a family in the US those are lots of extra ancillary costs that are higher than in Canada.
adventured
There are no top tier schools in Canada. That's one of the problems. There's no Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford, MIT, Berkeley, Brown, Duke, Chicago, Columbia, Penn, CIT, Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon, et al.

Canada's few top tier schools, are second tier schools in the US, barely. Canada has only a few schools that compare to the University of Virginia, UNC or Michigan. The US has dozens of schools like that, eg: USC, UCLA, Florida, UC San Diego, UC Irvine, Tulane, Pepperdine, Northeastern, Georgia, Boston, GIT, BC, NYU, Tufts, Wake Forest, Wisconsin Madison, Texas, Villanova, Penn State, Ohio State etc.

A bunch of those second tier schools cost $9k to $12k per year in-state tuition + fees. UNC is $9k, Florida is $6k. A four year degree will get you a $85k to $100k per year career as an engineer. You can pay for half of your tuition cost before you graduate with part-time work.

You can go to Berkely for $14k in-state. A degree from there in something of value in engineering, and you can write your ticket. You can easily pay off your education in a few years, and have an elite career that pays a top 3% income.

kohanz
I'm curious how you define top-tier in this situation, especially tech-centric. I agree the U.S. has more "top" institutions from a reputation standpoint (partially due to us living in a US-centric western world), but they are also astronomically more expensive to attend than their Canadian counterparts. The University of Waterloo is probably not a "top-tier" school by any formal metric, but I would be surprised if it doesn't rival or beat the very top schools in the U.S. in terms of top engineers & tech entrepreneurs produced on a per-capita basis.

Waterloo, for example, has a co-op program that (at least when I attended it years ago) had me graduating debt-free, with built-up savings, and 2 years of tech. experience (including in SV). Many of my peers went to work for MS, Google, or Amazon (the big players at the time) right after graduation. Basically, if you wanted to go south of the border, you could, but of course many want to stay in Canada. I think similar opportunities are there for students from Toronto and other institutions. Accounting for population difference, I don't think the gap is that massive.

Also, Sam Altman is a big fan :)

While researching his piece Bruni spoke with Sam Altman, the president of Y Combinator, one of the best-known providers of seed money for tech startups.

Bruni asked him if any one school stood out in terms of students and graduates whose ideas took off. “Yes,” Altman responded. Bruni was prepared to hear Altman tout his alma mater Stanford. After all it’s famous as a feeder of Silicon Valley success.

But Altman surprised him: “The University of Waterloo.”

Davidbrcz
No, I don't have them and I don't even know where to begin with as I don't know how many expenses/services work whether in the US or in Canada.

I'm just pointing out that comparing only raw figures is not relevant.

martinni
Numbeo has a great cost of living comparison tool. Here's Toronto vs NYC. It shows that you need less money in Canada to maintain the same level of living.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

I think the big one is this

> Rent Prices in New York, NY are 116.10% higher than in Toronto

It also doesn't account for different things like healthcare costs, etc.

lucozade
I just took a quick look at average salaries and cost of living (specifically rent) [0].

WRT average salaries, none of these seem particularly out of kilter i.e. the ratios of the salaries you quote to the average salary of the respective areas are fairly consistent.

What's interesting is cost of living. Surprisingly (to me) Vancouver and Toronto have salary to rent ratios similar to New York. Boston and Washington are better i.e. higher ratios. Seattle and especially Atlanta are much better.

Not sure what to conclude from this but it's quite interesting, at least to me.

[0] https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living I have absolutely no idea how good this data is.

xstartup
The job is just not same.

In the big company where my bro worked had its best employees sent to HQ so that they could pay them more.

The guys who got employed at satellite offices could never directly get employed at the HQ.

Rest of the small companies have no choice but to pay more to get any talent.

I think big companies have their HQ in those expensive areas because their top guys prefer that for networking purpose. Most of the time a city is established as a hub for X and it's difficult to change that.

mchannon
Part of this difference is also the fluctuation in exchange rates.

Around 2014, 1 CAD was worth about 1 USD, but since then, the loonie has plummeted in value relative to the greenback.

That doesn't account for the entire difference, but it does account for some of it.

parliament32
Seems to be a combination of cost-of-living and demand. Consider the following cost-of-living comparison between Vancouver and Seattle:

Consumer Prices in Seattle, WA are 20.02% higher than in Vancouver

Consumer Prices Including Rent in Seattle, WA are 22.54% higher than in Vancouver

Rent Prices in Seattle, WA are 26.38% higher than in Vancouver

Restaurant Prices in Seattle, WA are 19.51% higher than in Vancouver

Groceries Prices in Seattle, WA are 21.84% higher than in Vancouver

(https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp)

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gesman
It's not unheard of for Senior Canadian Software engineer to get paid about 2x-4x times more in CA[lifornia].

Miserable salary? Miserably long depressing winters? Thanks, but no thanks.

danieltillett
Like everything it is a factor of supply and demand. On the demand side there is not as great a demand from employers for software engineers in Canada, on the supply side immigration is considerably easier into Canada for software engineers. Less demand and greater supply = lower wages.

We have the same issue here in Australia.

hemantv
Not to refute you completely. Maybe it because there are not many companies that can be created with small populations as Canada and Australia? Which results in less companies.

US benefit far more from big large single market with high purchasing power than anything else. IMHO.

Let me know if I am missing something here.

oblib
The measurement that really needs to be considered is "quality of life" and that is easy to overlook.

I wouldn't live in DC or New York for those wages but Vancouver might not be too bad for the pay there and I know of places where you could get by on less than 60k and live quite a bit better than any of those for the wages listed. I live in one.

cmorgan8506
I'm Canadian and have definitely noticed a big difference. Though there also seems to be a strong demand for programmers, so I'm not sure why the wage isn't pushing further.

I'm remote. so I've found contracting to American companies to be best case scenario. Particularly when the our dollar is lower.

nakedgrape
Hmm. I've seen these charts often but I have to say I've never met anyone get paid less than eighty. Myself and most of my peers at UBC start at about 90-110k for Google, Fb, Amazon and whatnot (only speaking for Vancouver).

My dad also worked in software back in the day in Toronto and he was also rarely less than 100k.

johan_larson
Keep in mind that these figures are in American dollars. Also, the companies you mention are the elite of this industry, and pay accordingly. Other places pay less.