Neil Postman wrote, “Children are the living messages we send to a time we will not see.” As a humanist, I don't have invisible gods or an afterlife to comfort me into apathy about the human condition. If I want the world to be a better place, I have to make it so and having children is an important dimension to that.
We've limited ourselves to two because my wife and I are both full-time software developers and we can't handle "being outnumbered" as we like to joke, but raising two boys is a remarkable experience. I've experienced many kinds of love in my life, love for family, romantic love for my wife, but this new kind of love for our children is so powerful and pure. It's so precious, drives me to be a better person for them, and I am so grateful to experience it.
I have wanted to have kids since I was ten. I am in the process of having them as early as I can and will have as many as I can afford or until my wife loses interest. The main bottleneck is finding the right person for you, with shared values and overlapping timelines. Once you have that, and you want to have kids, why wait? Why have success, if not to share it?
I wanted to have kids to get fulfillment from the mentorship and difficulty. I like to be behind the scenes, helping other people find success and fulfillment, and primarily just providing a platform for them. I like to do it on a small scale, with big impact. I like to pay for things for the people I care about and watch them become independent of me. All of those things I learned relatively early on and led back to the pattern of paternalism and altruism in parenting. So I think I had the drive before I identified it as kid-having.
I am not surprised at all that a lot of people are choosing not to have kids. Many people seem disinterested in it and that to me leads to lose-lose situations between the parents and kids. Many divorces seem to be based on the fact that they only got married in the first place because of an accidental child and then tried to do the "honourable" thing. If you don't want to have kids, don't try to make yourself, just live somewhere where that is normal and OK.
As a person, I tend to find meaning in a few select activities. I like work, I work a lot, I enjoy it intrinsically and deeply. I always felt I would find meaning in kids in a way equivalent or more so than I do in work. I find no meaning in most friendships, institutions, "changing the world", cultural traditions, status, etc. I just care about learning, working and having a big impact on a small group of people around me (ie. family).
I think most people these days are too cautious when it comes to having kids though. You really don't need to both have six figure incomes, own a house and be in your mid-to-late thirties to be "ready". I think that culture is shifting back though, as people who wait until too late have more fertility issues and find it very tiring to keep up with the kids. It takes a village to raise a child, you can't replace the village with two rich middle aged people, that seems to just be a recipe for more misery than people who do it sooner.
I would choose this again 100%. I would always advise people, if you want to have kids, and your partner doesn't, find someone who does because those feelings don't go away. If you don't want to have kids, really really work to avoid having kids, because feeling like a victim combined with this process must be the definition of hell. It's not something you can be non-committal about. It's, do I want to be all in on this, or not, one must decide.
> I think most people these days are too cautious when it comes to having kids though.
I was talking with a woman just this morning about her kids, one starting having kids at 13 and has 8 now and the other is 14, stays out till 3am (when she comes home at all) and is probably on the fast track to becoming a baby making machine.
I think a lot of people are entirely not cautious enough when it comes to having children.
I didn't exactly choose to have children. When I was younger, I suffered from a series of highly debilitating health issues (the details of which I will not go into here) and a young woman chose to take advantage of the situation and become impregnated.
Now, don't get me wrong; I love my children dearly. I did not chose to have them in any normal sense, however.
> I didn't exactly choose to have children. When I was younger, I suffered from a series of highly debilitating health issues (the details of which I will not go into here) and a young woman chose to take advantage of the situation and become impregnated.
> Now, don't get me wrong; I love my children dearly. I did not chose to have them in any normal sense, however.
I think my wife and I came to the conclusion at the same time. We were a little too infatuated with our cat and found that there was a growing vacuum in our lives that was appearing despite most other things being constant. It was the feeling of wanting to create something. As a subconscious trigger, the nerdy part of me started thinking about getting into AI. One day, we had a very brief discussion in which we agreed to let it happen.
Though it had been difficult at times (twins) and each day is a new challenge for them and for us, we made the right choice. My wife is sitting with them building Lego houses as I type this.
I think it’s one of those things that’s difficult to understand until you actually have them. I don’t think I could have conceived of the joy and happiness I would experience having a child before actually having them.
I’ve got a 9 mo old, and planning to have a couple more. It’s a hard to explain feeling of fulfillment and completeness, except one where I didn’t realize something was missing until I actually had them. That said I look back to the time when it was just me and my wife and really enjoy those memories too, but those have their place, time and duration and when you have kids you realize that they are something with their own relish that you can enjoy too.
I’m also somewhat superstitious/quasi hippy so I believe kids bring their own karma and destiny into the worlds, which, when interacting with your own life can change it for the better or worse. Not necessarily a reason to have them per se but an observation nonetheless.
Overall it’s been an amazing experience. I love coming home to see my little guy, and make him smile which makes me smile in turn. They are amazing little AI machines. And you can’t help thinking And helping them become whatever they are meant to become in their fullest actualization.
Is there any way you can think of to get a proxy for that feeling without actually having kid? I want to gather more data on whether I want to be a parent, and yet all parents tell me "you won't know until you try it."
What if I try it and don't enjoy being a parent? The cost of a child being stuck with an unhappy parent is too much to risk it.
That question shows how far away you are from understanding it.
There is in fact - no other way.
It would prove much harder than you think. It's like describing a color to someone without using the name of the color or pointing to it. Or since you presumably don't have children, it's like trying to describe a color that doesn't exist.
Don't believe the whole dog/cat comparison. That's totally broken.
If it's impossible to understand, would it be reasonable to think that it's irresponsible to become a parent? How come we make so many other career and financial decisions with much thought and data, and yet the decision to take on one's biggest responsibility can be made without understanding it at all?
I’ll be honest, my wife stays at home and is fully content being the best mom she can be. Others likely have it different..
Imagine something like cute little pure innocence machines radiating pure love for you selflessly with little to no expectation in return and doin funny stuff to make you laugh.
I suspect, subconsciously, it’s the closest thing we have to immortality. If I have kids and foster a good relationship, I might be remembered after my demise.
I want to because some of my greatest memories were with my dad. I want to enable someone to experience those feelings, and experience the other side of them as well.
I didn't want to because all of my worst memories were with my parents. Now I have a baby I always think about ways I can be a better parent than mine were.
That’s interesting that you feel that way. I am not trying to diminish your belief. Clearly it is true for you.
However for me, having children is the most profoundly selfish thing I can imagine. Creating another person to give myself fulfillment and purpose. Especially considering how difficult climate change and AI will make life for the next generation or two, I feel morally compelled not to have children.
However, as I said, I recognize your experience is different. It’s interesting how different.
What's funny is you even think of having kids through the focus of you, like you could find purpose. That's seriously self involved man. It's not about you.
From a distance drowning looks a lot like swimming. Swimming is fun and enjoyable, where as drowning in a desire for personal fulfillment isn't.
Get in the water (have kids), it may surprise you.
We didn't 'choose' - but having a child was the best accident that ever happened to us.
I had a miserable childhood, and having an awesome and joyous time with our three children has redeemed my hurt - it's part of my memory, but no longer important.
Having kind, wise, and creative children has given me hope for the world that comes after me - and I'm grateful that have the responsibility to raise them.
It's also helped cured many of my neurosis - I don't procrastinate, I set goals, I get up in the morning, I'm not a gloomy pessimist and I'm not at irrationally angry.
And even though children are expensive - I'm richer because I have better character traits.
My kids saved my life by taking my own greed for my own life away from me - I live for them and my wife. I never knew that existed.
Duty and support. As a Hindu we believe that it is impossible to pay the debt you are born with to your parents for looking after you and raising you unless you have children yourself. Hence we are bound by duty for society, to parents, ancestors and also for support later in life.
That's a whole other thing with debt, everything is based on dharma and karma, so if it's your bad karma that you are infertile (for whatever past life reason) then it is the dharma of other people to help you and also for you to seek out other ways. Adoption could be one way the Garuda Purana enlists various alternatives for example for those without kids and who else can do their final rites etc
Don't have kids yet, but my partner is pregnant now. I know I have wanted kids for a while, but I think it really kicked in in the last year. I have thought about why we both kind of felt that way. My best guess is that I have reached a point in my life and career where I can recognize that my utility to the world has peaked essentially.
In maybe a non-sensical way, it seems like having children is my best remaining contribution to the world. Maybe I can make a slightly better version of myself and teach him how to be a better person than I was. Otherwise, it seems like what I have learned and all the knowledge I have accumulated will essentially be wasted. What was the entire point after all? If I don't pass down all of the things I have learned, then what was really the point to ever learning it or experiencing it? And I am not talking about things you can learn from a book, I mean the lessons of life experiences.
Not sure if that is a great reason, or even if it is really the reason. Just my guess from introspection on it. Why is it that I felt now was really the time?
By your logic, wouldn't adopting be a better way to help the world? You would still be able to pass on your knowledge and attempt to create a better version of yourself, but you wouldn't be producing yet another person straining the resources of the world. Not to mention the massive value added to the life of your adopted child.
Yes, possibly, and we have lightly considered it in the past. It is a really difficult process though, and I am not sure we really wanted to wait some indefinite amount of time and go through all the difficulty of the process. Maybe that was selfish in a way.
I understand that the adoption process is a big pain. But compared to the massive physical strain on the body of the mother and the risk of death / debilitating injury / birth defects / trauma of losing a pregnancy / risk of postpartum depression etc etc etc, I really can't understand how that could possibly even compare to dealing with an annoying and slow bureaucratic process.
Do you really consider having kids and adopting to be interchangeable? I am asking honestly.
I think it is hard to raise a kid, and adoption makes it much much harder (opinion based on anecdata)
I don't consider them interchangeable. But the thread is about people's reasoning for deciding to have children and so I asked a followup question about a specific reason where I thought for that particular reason, adoption might have been the "superior" option." I understand it's a complicated decision.
That being said, I can definitely see why adopting a "troubled teen" would be more difficult than having your own kid. But is adopting a baby really that much different than having your own?
My wife works at the extreme end of the foster system: special needs kids with trauma. For the most part, kids are kids. You have a non-trivial chance of a special needs kid if you make it or adopt it. The bio-parents are generally the problem, which iswhymanyadoptive parents refuse all contact with them and move to a different city, oradopt from a different city.
> You would still be able to pass on your knowledge and
> attempt to create a better version of yourself
That depends on how much you believe children to be a blank slate which can be equally imprinted with knowledge. If you don't believe in a blank slate, and believe that children are genetically similar to their parents mentally as well as physically then this doesn't make much sense.
Psychologically, I see a lot similarities between myself and my parents, and so I expect that when I at some point have my own children, my own experiences will guide me in how I understand and help them.
When I have children I will do so because I love my partner and would like if there were more people like her and because I feel like I'm a decent and strong person that should focus my life on more than just my own desires. I also know that both of our parents would like to be part of a larger family -- the people that you love, and that love you, generally want to see you multiply. Finally, I think that having a family could be a total laugh: it's great to experience good times together and it makes bad times lighter, too.
That's a good point and it depends on where you fall on the nature vs nurture scale. But in terms of passing on knowledge and morality, I would think nurture would be vastly more important than nature. However, I admit I don't have the research to back that claim up.
I reckon even morality is affected by personality.
I can imagine that it will be much easier to teach my future children to fight against vices that I've had to deal with, than to pass on morality or knowledge that came absolutely naturally to me.
Agree adoptive parents are doing something great for a child in need, but I don't accept the Malthusian corollary you often see taken as granted, that having kids is a net cost on the planet.
People in the '80s were certain we'd soon exhaust global coal supplies. The 1880s. Now we are more likely to replace it with alternatives as run out. Before that it would have been kerosene or whale oil.
This isn't unique to fuel.
Minerals were harder to come by in the 1930s, when we had 2 billion people, than they are today, with 7.5. We've made them more abundant not less:
This is counterintuitive at first, but we're really good at finding more efficient ways to do things.
Or... economies of scale kick in when you have enough people, especially once you don't need to dedicate almost everyone to farming, when you can add some inventors and chemists, say.
Maybe that's why historically humanity has had far more to fear from population crashes than booms.
Turning matter into MIPS is not a sin. Adding processing power is one of the best ways to make stuff more valuable.
Measured by capacity for processing information? Much better.
Measured by incidence of cholera and dysentery? Much better.
Measured by the net increase in sublime human experiences minus human suffering? Much better.
I know a lot of people don't find these values very satisfying and are looking for something else though.
When you imagine a world untouched by humanity, what is the foundational good, the bedrock value that it represents?
Stability? A dead rock is stable, I don't think that's it.
Biodiversity? Biodiversity is just correlated with heat, highest around the equator where there's more abundant energy for systems to incorporate into replication. I don't think you just want a warmer planet.
Maybe sustainability? To preserve a habitat for humanity?
I just suspect inventiveness is more helpful for humanity's long term survival, of the sort you get from an abundance of people so that we can put some to work not just on farms, but on space stations.
However, the impact was much greater than we had imagined. The sense of responsibility increased my work efficiency (income) at least five fold, the affection bound us all together like nothing else ever did before, and brought out the parental qualities I never thought I had inside me.
...and after two years, the second one is on the way... :)
Partner expecting 6th in May. I'd look at it the other way round, does anyone who has children ever regret it? Personally, like the vast majority, not for a second.
Is that true though? It’s very socially unacceptable to publicly admit you regret having kids, not to mention very damaging for the child if they found out. There have been anonymous forums (Reddit AMAs come to mind) where people have admitted they regret having kids.
I wasn’t really into the idea of having kids but I had one because my wife wanted to and I liked being with my wife. I went completely bonkers for the kid and now want to have as many as possible.
I was and am in the best relationship of my life and she asked. Can’t say I agreed without trepidation as I’ve not been around young kids since I was one but it felt right. I think it was one of the best decisions of my life. A hell of a lot of work that isn’t always very fun but ultimately the most rewarding adventure.
Notice that most of the comments here are describing post-hoc how having children has been fulfilling/great/worth it. Which isn't really the question - it's not asking if having children was a good move in retrospect.
It's interesting that most people's minds go there. I've had this happen myself after having a son - the original "why" almost doesn't matter or rather gets overshadowed by all the other parts of it (for most people, a deep sense of purpose and fulfillment).
To actually answer the question, my partner and I came to a place where our relationship was great, jobs were great, etc - but we felt a certain "is this it?". Sure, being DINKS is a nice life, lots of travel, easy, etc. But... hmmmmmm... is this it? Amuse ourselves until we die? Stay clean and simple, have fun, work hard... hmmmmmm....
Meanwhile there was a quiet impulse in the background beckoning towards creating something out of our relationship / position. It's hard to describe. Obviously biology is playing a role here. But what a wonderful chaotic creative thing, two different people coming together and making a third person.
So we had a vague sense of all that. And decided to go for it. As many other people have said in this thread, your life changes immediately and irrevocably when kids arrive, but for us it's been pure joy. Lots of chaos too.
My wife remarks that she didn't realize what a big hole was in her life before becoming a mother. That's maybe the best way to describe it. We had a sense that there was a hole in our lives, or something that would grow into a big hole if we didn't have kids.
as someone in my 30s whose friends are starting to have children, i always suspected this.
i call it the groundhog day effect.
basically things just start getting repetitive, you start making more money than you know what to do with (other than hoard), and you start answering the biological urge to have children and shake things up.
DINK life is nice until your social circle is filled with people with kids. You can hang with younger couples, sure, but it wears out fast. The opportunities to hang with people your own age at some regular frequency greatly diminishes (cuz they are tired and have to deal with kids). There is nothing wrong with this - you can splurge on travel and self-development, retire way earlier, or what have you; totally fine and rewarding. It comes down to what you value (I like playing sports and video games with my son more than hanging out with grownups).
Just hang out with people that have kids. Better yet bring the people with kids dinner or something, they will like the change of pace especially with young children. I will probably end up doing this myself, as I have significant anxiety and depression which made having kids a no-go.
yeah, that's fine. I was just saying it's gonna happen way less than you think. Kids have routines, are picky, need attention, and parents can't always tolerate guests often because of that. Every family is different though.
I've always felt that the people more inclined to have children had no big devouring passion, this kinda confirms it. Which is worrying because I feel my partner is in that category, and I'm not.
Elon Musk has six children. Bezos has four. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs both have kids (though Jobs was a pretty poor parent by all accounts). Most of the CEOs, executives, and other powerful, driven people I know have children.
I think your instincts are off and you are trying to explain to yourself why it is ok (and really, superior) that you don't want kids. In reality, you needn't explain it to anyone, you simply don't want to.
For me it was a sense of obligation which was brought home after reading this in the Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins: No doubt some of your cousins and great-uncles died in childhood, but not a single one of your ancestors did. Jerry Seinfeld then cemented my fate with "Don't break the chain".
Doesn't this just make the argument that having kids is bad for them? That doesn't affect whether or not it has a positive impact on the lives of the couple.
Also, this assumes that you ascribe to the anti-natalism viewpoint, which to me seems like as much of a thought experiment as nihilism.
Edit: Before you downvote read the paragraph at the end please.
True story: I didn’t want kids. I knew I was selfish and didn’t want to ruin kids. But one day I pondered Psalm 127:3-5. I reasoned that if God called children a blessing then who am I to call Him a liar?
I’m glad I believed that promise. It’s not been what I feared at all.
Those verses say:
Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord,
the fruit of the womb a reward.
Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one’s youth.
Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them!
He shall not be put to shame
when he speaks with his enemies in the gate. (ESV)
Hey downvoters: You don’t have to agree with my reasons. The OP asked why and I answered. Be a little open minded would you?
Upvoted you. People here tend to be intolerant of any religious opinion.
Edit: I'm a believer and desperately don't want children. Dunno whether this is an inconsistency in my faith or just how I'm built. This whole thread is a little maddening to me because I wish people would stop making new people, but everyone seems so happy doing it :)
I also study Permaculture, which is a science of study of the environment.
There is a paradox discussed in Permaculture: “The problem becomes the solution.” Applying that to the population numbers, we may actually not have /enough/ people.
The problem of too many people becomes the solution: Get enough people acting rightly and many other problems get solved. Some Permaculturists believe the earth has the capacity for fifty billion people; it’s just that current resources are so poorly managed. We may not have enough people to solve so many of the world's pressing problems.
The alternative is to treat people like weeds. But we need a path of love, not fear.
Fwiw, I didn't mean to imply that my wish that people stop making more people was due to fears of overpopulation. (We have so much empty space left! And new technologies to discover, and so on.) Rather, it's based on my own desire to not exist.
It's ok, other powers at work here. The lady who I likely would be married to had I wanted children was into permaculture, so I take the unlikely turn of conversation as a little dig from Him.
> Tell me more about that.
Groaning at discussing personal stuff on HN, but here goes: I don't enjoy life or find it rewarding. I'd likely have killed myself a long time ago but don't because my life is not my own (bought with a price and so on). So how could I possibly want to create more people?
I have many philosophical arguments against creating children as well, such as violating the agency of the unborn by forcing them into existence, or considering the generations of suffering and death (and damnation of some?) caused by creating children, who will have more children, ad infinitum.
But none of that matters because God has a plan and it'll all make sense someday (after I die). So I (im?)patiently await that day.
Feel free to ping me offline if you want to continue the conversation. You can even edit your comment and remove the personal stuff if you want :-) Address: Slow Bro 904 at Gmail.
(Assuming you're a certain kind of believer; otherwise, this isn't so helpful) In 1st Corinthians 7, Paul says that remaining abstinent and unmarried is desirable, but that sex within marriage is acceptable to control lust. It doesn't directly mention children, but it seems to imply that it isn't sinful to avoid them.
But, I don't like the reason :). I've seen too many people who think kids are property that God has given them to rule over and that doesn't end with healthy kids usually.
The "choice" to have children is the lizard part of the brain at the task its been optimized for the last 500 million years, reproducing.
Some people try to rationalize the choice, but it is a primal driving force. It can also been seen as the desire to have sex. Although in some configurations there are less than optimal results.
That being said, I have found the process to be the most fulfilling of my life. It has helped that we have made enough money to keep us comfortable and allow our children to attend private schools, daycare, etc.
There is a balance, many of my sons don't really have a relationship with their fathers. Seems to be less of an issue with my daughters friends. I suspect I could have a much larger net worth if I had worked more. But I am glad I made the choice of spending as much time with my kids as I could.
I doubt anyone chooses to have children in the sense you are thinking. The biological urge and societal pressure is so huge it is almost always a question of when not if.
Can I suggest a better question would be "why did you choose to have more children?" And did the reasoning change from n+1 to n+2 ...
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[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 126 ms ] threadWe've limited ourselves to two because my wife and I are both full-time software developers and we can't handle "being outnumbered" as we like to joke, but raising two boys is a remarkable experience. I've experienced many kinds of love in my life, love for family, romantic love for my wife, but this new kind of love for our children is so powerful and pure. It's so precious, drives me to be a better person for them, and I am so grateful to experience it.
I wanted to have kids to get fulfillment from the mentorship and difficulty. I like to be behind the scenes, helping other people find success and fulfillment, and primarily just providing a platform for them. I like to do it on a small scale, with big impact. I like to pay for things for the people I care about and watch them become independent of me. All of those things I learned relatively early on and led back to the pattern of paternalism and altruism in parenting. So I think I had the drive before I identified it as kid-having.
I am not surprised at all that a lot of people are choosing not to have kids. Many people seem disinterested in it and that to me leads to lose-lose situations between the parents and kids. Many divorces seem to be based on the fact that they only got married in the first place because of an accidental child and then tried to do the "honourable" thing. If you don't want to have kids, don't try to make yourself, just live somewhere where that is normal and OK.
As a person, I tend to find meaning in a few select activities. I like work, I work a lot, I enjoy it intrinsically and deeply. I always felt I would find meaning in kids in a way equivalent or more so than I do in work. I find no meaning in most friendships, institutions, "changing the world", cultural traditions, status, etc. I just care about learning, working and having a big impact on a small group of people around me (ie. family).
I think most people these days are too cautious when it comes to having kids though. You really don't need to both have six figure incomes, own a house and be in your mid-to-late thirties to be "ready". I think that culture is shifting back though, as people who wait until too late have more fertility issues and find it very tiring to keep up with the kids. It takes a village to raise a child, you can't replace the village with two rich middle aged people, that seems to just be a recipe for more misery than people who do it sooner.
I would choose this again 100%. I would always advise people, if you want to have kids, and your partner doesn't, find someone who does because those feelings don't go away. If you don't want to have kids, really really work to avoid having kids, because feeling like a victim combined with this process must be the definition of hell. It's not something you can be non-committal about. It's, do I want to be all in on this, or not, one must decide.
I was talking with a woman just this morning about her kids, one starting having kids at 13 and has 8 now and the other is 14, stays out till 3am (when she comes home at all) and is probably on the fast track to becoming a baby making machine.
I think a lot of people are entirely not cautious enough when it comes to having children.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16510584
> I didn't exactly choose to have children. When I was younger, I suffered from a series of highly debilitating health issues (the details of which I will not go into here) and a young woman chose to take advantage of the situation and become impregnated.
> Now, don't get me wrong; I love my children dearly. I did not chose to have them in any normal sense, however.
Though it had been difficult at times (twins) and each day is a new challenge for them and for us, we made the right choice. My wife is sitting with them building Lego houses as I type this.
I’ve got a 9 mo old, and planning to have a couple more. It’s a hard to explain feeling of fulfillment and completeness, except one where I didn’t realize something was missing until I actually had them. That said I look back to the time when it was just me and my wife and really enjoy those memories too, but those have their place, time and duration and when you have kids you realize that they are something with their own relish that you can enjoy too.
I’m also somewhat superstitious/quasi hippy so I believe kids bring their own karma and destiny into the worlds, which, when interacting with your own life can change it for the better or worse. Not necessarily a reason to have them per se but an observation nonetheless.
Overall it’s been an amazing experience. I love coming home to see my little guy, and make him smile which makes me smile in turn. They are amazing little AI machines. And you can’t help thinking And helping them become whatever they are meant to become in their fullest actualization.
What if I try it and don't enjoy being a parent? The cost of a child being stuck with an unhappy parent is too much to risk it.
There is in fact - no other way.
It would prove much harder than you think. It's like describing a color to someone without using the name of the color or pointing to it. Or since you presumably don't have children, it's like trying to describe a color that doesn't exist.
Don't believe the whole dog/cat comparison. That's totally broken.
Imagine something like cute little pure innocence machines radiating pure love for you selflessly with little to no expectation in return and doin funny stuff to make you laugh.
I want to because some of my greatest memories were with my dad. I want to enable someone to experience those feelings, and experience the other side of them as well.
There is more to life than success, money, and personal ambition (make a difference).
Being a father is the highest form of true selflessness. It's like you transcend even your own desires.
However for me, having children is the most profoundly selfish thing I can imagine. Creating another person to give myself fulfillment and purpose. Especially considering how difficult climate change and AI will make life for the next generation or two, I feel morally compelled not to have children.
However, as I said, I recognize your experience is different. It’s interesting how different.
What's funny is you even think of having kids through the focus of you, like you could find purpose. That's seriously self involved man. It's not about you.
From a distance drowning looks a lot like swimming. Swimming is fun and enjoyable, where as drowning in a desire for personal fulfillment isn't.
Get in the water (have kids), it may surprise you.
I had a miserable childhood, and having an awesome and joyous time with our three children has redeemed my hurt - it's part of my memory, but no longer important.
Having kind, wise, and creative children has given me hope for the world that comes after me - and I'm grateful that have the responsibility to raise them.
It's also helped cured many of my neurosis - I don't procrastinate, I set goals, I get up in the morning, I'm not a gloomy pessimist and I'm not at irrationally angry.
And even though children are expensive - I'm richer because I have better character traits.
My kids saved my life by taking my own greed for my own life away from me - I live for them and my wife. I never knew that existed.
In maybe a non-sensical way, it seems like having children is my best remaining contribution to the world. Maybe I can make a slightly better version of myself and teach him how to be a better person than I was. Otherwise, it seems like what I have learned and all the knowledge I have accumulated will essentially be wasted. What was the entire point after all? If I don't pass down all of the things I have learned, then what was really the point to ever learning it or experiencing it? And I am not talking about things you can learn from a book, I mean the lessons of life experiences.
Not sure if that is a great reason, or even if it is really the reason. Just my guess from introspection on it. Why is it that I felt now was really the time?
That being said, I can definitely see why adopting a "troubled teen" would be more difficult than having your own kid. But is adopting a baby really that much different than having your own?
Psychologically, I see a lot similarities between myself and my parents, and so I expect that when I at some point have my own children, my own experiences will guide me in how I understand and help them.
When I have children I will do so because I love my partner and would like if there were more people like her and because I feel like I'm a decent and strong person that should focus my life on more than just my own desires. I also know that both of our parents would like to be part of a larger family -- the people that you love, and that love you, generally want to see you multiply. Finally, I think that having a family could be a total laugh: it's great to experience good times together and it makes bad times lighter, too.
I can imagine that it will be much easier to teach my future children to fight against vices that I've had to deal with, than to pass on morality or knowledge that came absolutely naturally to me.
People in the '80s were certain we'd soon exhaust global coal supplies. The 1880s. Now we are more likely to replace it with alternatives as run out. Before that it would have been kerosene or whale oil.
This isn't unique to fuel.
Minerals were harder to come by in the 1930s, when we had 2 billion people, than they are today, with 7.5. We've made them more abundant not less:
http://www.aei.org/publication/julian-simon-still-more-right...
This is counterintuitive at first, but we're really good at finding more efficient ways to do things.
Or... economies of scale kick in when you have enough people, especially once you don't need to dedicate almost everyone to farming, when you can add some inventors and chemists, say.
Maybe that's why historically humanity has had far more to fear from population crashes than booms.
Turning matter into MIPS is not a sin. Adding processing power is one of the best ways to make stuff more valuable.
Measured by capacity for processing information? Much better.
Measured by incidence of cholera and dysentery? Much better.
Measured by the net increase in sublime human experiences minus human suffering? Much better.
I know a lot of people don't find these values very satisfying and are looking for something else though.
When you imagine a world untouched by humanity, what is the foundational good, the bedrock value that it represents?
Stability? A dead rock is stable, I don't think that's it.
Biodiversity? Biodiversity is just correlated with heat, highest around the equator where there's more abundant energy for systems to incorporate into replication. I don't think you just want a warmer planet.
Maybe sustainability? To preserve a habitat for humanity?
I just suspect inventiveness is more helpful for humanity's long term survival, of the sort you get from an abundance of people so that we can put some to work not just on farms, but on space stations.
However, the impact was much greater than we had imagined. The sense of responsibility increased my work efficiency (income) at least five fold, the affection bound us all together like nothing else ever did before, and brought out the parental qualities I never thought I had inside me.
...and after two years, the second one is on the way... :)
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yvxadj/the-mothers-who-re...
http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/sc-regret-children-...
It's interesting that most people's minds go there. I've had this happen myself after having a son - the original "why" almost doesn't matter or rather gets overshadowed by all the other parts of it (for most people, a deep sense of purpose and fulfillment).
To actually answer the question, my partner and I came to a place where our relationship was great, jobs were great, etc - but we felt a certain "is this it?". Sure, being DINKS is a nice life, lots of travel, easy, etc. But... hmmmmmm... is this it? Amuse ourselves until we die? Stay clean and simple, have fun, work hard... hmmmmmm....
Meanwhile there was a quiet impulse in the background beckoning towards creating something out of our relationship / position. It's hard to describe. Obviously biology is playing a role here. But what a wonderful chaotic creative thing, two different people coming together and making a third person.
So we had a vague sense of all that. And decided to go for it. As many other people have said in this thread, your life changes immediately and irrevocably when kids arrive, but for us it's been pure joy. Lots of chaos too.
My wife remarks that she didn't realize what a big hole was in her life before becoming a mother. That's maybe the best way to describe it. We had a sense that there was a hole in our lives, or something that would grow into a big hole if we didn't have kids.
i call it the groundhog day effect.
basically things just start getting repetitive, you start making more money than you know what to do with (other than hoard), and you start answering the biological urge to have children and shake things up.
I think your instincts are off and you are trying to explain to yourself why it is ok (and really, superior) that you don't want kids. In reality, you needn't explain it to anyone, you simply don't want to.
My dad's life was complete without me. I'm here to please my mom.
https://aeon.co/essays/having-children-is-not-life-affirming...
Also, this assumes that you ascribe to the anti-natalism viewpoint, which to me seems like as much of a thought experiment as nihilism.
True story: I didn’t want kids. I knew I was selfish and didn’t want to ruin kids. But one day I pondered Psalm 127:3-5. I reasoned that if God called children a blessing then who am I to call Him a liar?
I’m glad I believed that promise. It’s not been what I feared at all.
Those verses say:
Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one’s youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate. (ESV)
Hey downvoters: You don’t have to agree with my reasons. The OP asked why and I answered. Be a little open minded would you?
Edit: I'm a believer and desperately don't want children. Dunno whether this is an inconsistency in my faith or just how I'm built. This whole thread is a little maddening to me because I wish people would stop making new people, but everyone seems so happy doing it :)
There is a paradox discussed in Permaculture: “The problem becomes the solution.” Applying that to the population numbers, we may actually not have /enough/ people.
The problem of too many people becomes the solution: Get enough people acting rightly and many other problems get solved. Some Permaculturists believe the earth has the capacity for fifty billion people; it’s just that current resources are so poorly managed. We may not have enough people to solve so many of the world's pressing problems.
The alternative is to treat people like weeds. But we need a path of love, not fear.
> Tell me more about that.
Groaning at discussing personal stuff on HN, but here goes: I don't enjoy life or find it rewarding. I'd likely have killed myself a long time ago but don't because my life is not my own (bought with a price and so on). So how could I possibly want to create more people?
I have many philosophical arguments against creating children as well, such as violating the agency of the unborn by forcing them into existence, or considering the generations of suffering and death (and damnation of some?) caused by creating children, who will have more children, ad infinitum.
But none of that matters because God has a plan and it'll all make sense someday (after I die). So I (im?)patiently await that day.
But, I don't like the reason :). I've seen too many people who think kids are property that God has given them to rule over and that doesn't end with healthy kids usually.
Some people try to rationalize the choice, but it is a primal driving force. It can also been seen as the desire to have sex. Although in some configurations there are less than optimal results.
There is a balance, many of my sons don't really have a relationship with their fathers. Seems to be less of an issue with my daughters friends. I suspect I could have a much larger net worth if I had worked more. But I am glad I made the choice of spending as much time with my kids as I could.
Can I suggest a better question would be "why did you choose to have more children?" And did the reasoning change from n+1 to n+2 ...