I’m gonna second this one. I’ve had all kinds of pain related to working at a desk all day. Wrist, back, shoulder, etc. Ergonomic equipment helped some, but it was getting stronger that finally made work related pain a thing of the past.
Cannot emphasize this enough. Deadlifts, in particular, are indispensable for posture and elimination of back pain. At least in the anecdotal experiences of myself and my friends.
Recommend 5x5 stronglifts ... not because it's a particularly good program (it's not - it's too easy to burn out early), but because it's a good resource to learn the main lifts initially. Lots of photos and explanations all in one place to make it as easy as possible for the new lifter.
I have used the 5x5 program and while I'm not here to endorse any particular program, I found that I really liked it. It did help me learn proper form, as you say, and it also gave me a very regular workout. I had it memorized and it always uses the same part of the gym (squat rack) so it helped me maintain a rhythm.
I actually built a squat rack at home eventually to start it back up after some time away.
There may be better programs, I have not actually tried any others. 5x5 was the most-recommended I found in my research a few years back.
Also, GGP, lifting did correct my posture very quickly. People kept telling me I looked taller/stronger/wider even before anyone knew I was working out (and before I had actually gained any muscle), and I'm quite sure that was just my improved posture.
Yeah - mental. You reach your maxes quickly and progression gets difficult because you're trying to do so much in a single session, but you don't need to think about other programs while you're still making progress with what you're currently doing.
The other thing for me was it started to take too long - I generally try to get my stuff done in an hour or so before work. I went from SL to GSLP to 531 (3 main lifts, to 2, finally to 1, per session).
To be honest, I don't think it matters too much - as long as you find something you like to do enough to stick to regularly, you'll improve in health and posture either way.
I always found that I could get my lifts in in about 45 minutes. It can be slower with a partner if their weight is very different from yours, because you're moving weight on and off a lot the bar, but ours was small enough that it wasn't a major time concern.
Later I did it solo and my workout times were ~30 minutes for the quick day, and ~45 minutes for the long day. The long day being squat/bench/row, and I felt like my breather periods were very generous.
Exactly. My bad posture got fixed immediately. Good posture is defined by core muscles (what you have around your waist and a bit above), and contrary to what many people believe, straight back and posture is much more a function of strong belly than back muscles. But as name suggests, core is a set of them, truly a ring around the whole waist.
I personally do squats, deadlifts, 3 minute planks at the very end of workout ('finisher') and other exercises where core is a secondary, stabilizing muscle (pullups, running etc).
For start I would recommend something with body weight (pushups, planks), simple and easy to do, and focus on many repetitions. Much safer than trying to push to your max and injure something in your back with long recovery.
It's a mistake in training to focus only on one part of the body. Over time developing all muscles helps tremendously with any activity/sport.
I have an adjustable desk at work and alternate between sitting and standing every hour or so. The bathroom is also on another floor so I walk up/down the stairs a few times a day.
> The bathroom is also on another floor so I walk up/down the stairs a few times a day.
It does seem like this is one of the better ways to go about it, where you have to get up. In my case the vending machine that takes Apple Pay is across campus/base a quarter mile away.
Take breaks every hour or so to do a few minutes of deep squats, push-ups or any other stretchy activity. Not only will you be able maintain better posture, but you may also find yourself more refreshed to take on your work flow without mental fatigue.
Obviously I am just one data point, but I spent many years with back pain and seeing Physios who would tell me to sit with better posture. They would give me endless stretches and exercises which I would spend time every day doing and suggest I stand for half the time if possible.
No matter what I tried, sitting with good posture was never comfortable. It wasn't until I visited a physio who told me not to worry about it, that I could sit however was comfortable and it wouldn't hurt my back, people are built differently, that the pain started going away.
I challenge you to find someone who sits with good posture who -doesn't- have back pain. So my question is, why do you want to sit in a particular way? What does good mean to you?
I’m all about the lean back. My chair is always positioned as low and as far back as it goes. Takes pressure off your spine. Distributes weight over the entire back rest, instead of just lightly touching it.
I'm a physio, and I'm so happy you were given good advice. Indeed, backs are strong and don't get damaged by sitting. Find a sitting position that's comfortable for you, because indeed, every body is different.
Not strictly answering the question, but something I've been thinking about in this area recently.
In regards to ergonomics, it's right under our noses but it seems to be overlooked - cars' seats seem to have perfect ergonomics. I can sit in mine for 2 hours straight and have no desire to adjust anything at all, and getting out feel the same as before I got in, besides the unavoidable slight stiffness that'll come with any prolonged stillness like that. Compare to any other sitting arrangement, where I'll inevitably either want to adjust it over time, move in it a bit, or realize I've been sitting wrongly in it causing a minor back pain or the like. Maybe office desk/chair ergonomics need to take a cue from car interiors.
I'll strongly disagree with this one. After a day of driving I regret it.
I don't own a car so o rent a variety of different ones. The headrest always forces my neck forward. The bucket shape of the seats closes my chest and causes shoulder issues.
1) This is absolutely crucial: Especially if you use a laptop, get an external keyboard and a very high riser for the screen (most risers on the market aren't nearly high enough).
If you're both typing into your laptop keyboard and trying to view its screen, you'll have no choice but to slouch or hunch.
To get the screen to the right height relative to the keyboard (for upright posture and elbows at a right angle at your side), even a short person should lift their laptop by over 18 inches (roughly the distance from waist to shoulder).
2) Get a vision exam annually and corrective lenses if appropriate so you never have to lean in to your screen.
It has been my hope for the last few decades that a laptop manufacturer notices this and offers a laptop with a screen that can be raised without being detached from the keyboard. Having a screen in so close proximity to a keyboard makes zero ergonomic sense.
I spend a lot of time on calls. Whenever I can (if I'm not on video) I stand up and pace around my office during the call. Some times I even grab a resistance band.
No need for anything crazy - just position your laptop so the screen is at eye level when you're sitting up straight. My personal setup is Roost Stand + external keyboard & mouse.
Tip for anyone who wants to get into working out but has a hard time sticking to it: sign up for something where you book classes at a fixed time instead of just signing up for a gym. I have been working out at regular gyms for the last 10+ years (it's part of my biz) and recently switched to Crossfit with fixed-classes...insane how the combination of fixed appointment + small group fosters discipline/motivation.
I'm an ergonomics geek. I had bad sitting posture for years, then struggled with severe shoulder and back pain for years after that. It got so bad that I could not sit and type for more than 15 minutes without collapsing at my desk. It became a career threatening emergency for me. I sought the support of specialists, doctors, orthopedists, physical therapists, physical trainers, etc. I did posture exercises, stretches, dry needling, replaced most of my office equipment, and so on. Now I can (finally!) work at a computer comfortably for 8 hours a day.
The #1 thing that helped me was sitting forward, on the edge of the chair, with legs tucked in, and removing the arm rests so my arms hang down naturally. A lot of people say it's unnatural, therefore, unhealthy, for humans to sit for 8 hours a day, but that's not entirely true. Humans have been riding horses and camels since practically the dawn of history, sometimes for >8 hours a day, weeks at a time, however these animals do not have arm rests or back rests.
The #2 thing was getting ergonomic equipment. Most office equipment is not designed for ergonomics, but economics. For a keyboard, I highly recommend the Kinesis Advantage2. The scooped design conforms naturally to the curves of the human hand. Though you have to relearn typing to an extent, it's totally worth it. You will also need an adjustable height external monitor. If you don't want to pay, don't be shy to ask your employer. It's an investment that pays off big in your efficiency.
The #3 thing was doing wall slides. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOtlRQxwt3g This doesn't help with the pain, but it is the only exercise I've ever tried that corrects kyphotic posture. Immediately after I started doing them, friends and family were asking me if I've gotten taller. It activates muscles in the upper back that I didn't even know existed.
Good post, much agreement, thank you, congrats on your health.
I also sit forward. I think of it as active posture. I'm holding myself upright. Versus slouching. When I "lean into" my work, I imagine myself being more attentive, productive. (I wouldn't know how to measure that.)
I'd only add that everyone should get regular physical therapy tune ups. I've always been active (hiking, cycling, gym) so I thought I was doing pretty good. Turns out I had been neglecting my smaller muscles and balance. I was shocked how much functionality I had lost. Like standing on one foot to put on the other sock.
For further motivation, all the balance exercises have helped build my body awareness and therefore my posture.
Yes. Best if you can get advice from both a physical therapist and physical trainer. At least meet with each one twice, so they can get you started with the right stretches and exercises.
But since I’m the least qualified participant, I wish my caregivers would talk to each other (coordinate) directly, instead of thru me. aka integrated care
Congrats on getting yourself better. Information helps, but you've got to apply it and not everyone does.
Regarding #1: Interesting observation about the horse and camel riding. However, I think there's more hip extension involved in both of those activities. I imagine there's also more muscle engagement in both too. Still an interesting point though. Makes me wonder if there's middle ground, regarding hip extension, while sitting. People typically talk about sitting vs standing at desks. I wonder if there's a place for chairs that sit higher off the ground to allow for more hip extension and sitting on the edge.
A saddle chair fits that way of sitting better. Has anyone had experience with those? I have tried one briefly and it was comfortable but I am not sure what a full day's work on one would be like.
Interesting, I had to search for an image and recognized them right away. Hadn't really given them much thought in the past, but now I'll have to track one down and give it a shot.
>Humans have been riding horses and camels since practically the dawn of history
Heh, riding a horse or camel, even traveling slowly, is nothing like sitting at a desk — it’s a workout in itself.
Me, I prefer extended work with a laptop in bed or on a couch. So far, so good, but wrist braces also help, mainly since I do all sorts of bizarre contortions otherwise. On the other hand, I also type less and perhaps think more than many other engineers I’ve seen...
+1 on wall slides. Recently ended up in physical therapy for back pain, undoubtedly due to excessive sitting / bad posture. These were brutal the first couple of times but after 2 months I have a much better range of motion and noticeably less pain / stiffness
For me it just feels so good to do sports regularly, so I do sports 4 times a week for 30 minutes in my living room. I follow the exercises of the following book: "You Are Your Own Gym: The Bible of Bodyweight Exercises" by Mark Lauren and Joshua Clark. There is an exercise plan so you know what to do and nearly all exercises can be done without special equipment. And the best - most of the 30 minutes you just lay down and recover ;). I can really recommend it.
I recommend Gokhale method (https://www.amazon.com/Steps-Pain-Free-Back-Solutions-Should...) which helped me fix my back pain and allow to sit for long periods of time without any problem. This book will teach you how to sit correctly and few other things about your back.
Alexander Technique saved me, its a course where trainer makes you aware of your posture, especially about how you hold your head. Check if there is an instructor in your area
more generally:
Have monitors high so you are looking straight ahead.
Feet flat on the floor
a good chair that adjusts to your body.
ie there is no way you can work on a laptop in a cafe 6+ hrs a day without getting chronic back problems.
This is great. My new landlord teaches the Alexander Technique, I think I'll hit her up. This thread has been a godsend. Just sitting straight on the edge of my chair like someone else here mentioned helped with my shoulder blades, with no arm rests, feet tucked and on the ground, and looking ahead.
> ie there is no way you can work on a laptop in a cafe 6+ hrs a day without getting chronic back problems.
This is the dirty little secret of the hip modern agile coworking 24/7 hackathon startup/freelancer/diy tech lifestyle. Our sleek streamlined unibody laptops are amazing tools but they are horrible for our bodies.
I'm imagining AR as a potentially major help here. The ability to define a virtual screen in an ergonomically appropriate part of the space ought to work wonders for a lot of on-the-fly offices.
Of course by Murphy's law it will probably first cause a whole new class of ergonomy injuries due to extra, imbalanced weight on the neck, but one day...
One weird trick: sit at the very front of your chair with your thighs pitched down, weight resting on your butt. That will angle your pelvis forward, closer to a standing position. You should find it easier to sit upright with your spine straight.
Lots of great tips here regarding taking breaks every 30 mins to stand, walk, stretch, etc. Yoga and other forms of core strengthening exercise will help reinforce better posture.
If you don't do this already then ensure that your knees are lower than your hips by placing a cushion or something underneath you [1]. That seems to help promote the natural curve in the lower back. Doing that while gently lowering shoulders, keeping them back, and raising the chest forward a bit helps a lot. For me it's a dynamic process that requires frequent checking-in to make adjustments and release tension.
I have scoliosis and a chronically screwed up upper back. If I sit at a desk with a bad ergo setup, I will experience back pain within 30-45 minutes. I'm pretty tall, so the majority of desk setups are, by default, too short, and force me to hunch over my keyboard. A good chair helps as well.
Besides that, regular exercise helps tremendously. Seriously, if you do not exercise at least twice a week, I would strongly advise making beginning to do so your highest priority.
86 comments
[ 1.2 ms ] story [ 136 ms ] threadHowever, when sitting, I use an external mouse and keyword, and use my DnD starter kit and a few books to raise my MacBook to eye level.
This keeps me sitting up, but doesn't fatigue my hands by keeping them raised.
The only thing I regret with this setup is buying a bloody magic mouse. Just don't buy it.
https://stronglifts.com/5x5/
I have used the 5x5 program and while I'm not here to endorse any particular program, I found that I really liked it. It did help me learn proper form, as you say, and it also gave me a very regular workout. I had it memorized and it always uses the same part of the gym (squat rack) so it helped me maintain a rhythm.
I actually built a squat rack at home eventually to start it back up after some time away.
There may be better programs, I have not actually tried any others. 5x5 was the most-recommended I found in my research a few years back.
Also, GGP, lifting did correct my posture very quickly. People kept telling me I looked taller/stronger/wider even before anyone knew I was working out (and before I had actually gained any muscle), and I'm quite sure that was just my improved posture.
The other thing for me was it started to take too long - I generally try to get my stuff done in an hour or so before work. I went from SL to GSLP to 531 (3 main lifts, to 2, finally to 1, per session).
To be honest, I don't think it matters too much - as long as you find something you like to do enough to stick to regularly, you'll improve in health and posture either way.
I always found that I could get my lifts in in about 45 minutes. It can be slower with a partner if their weight is very different from yours, because you're moving weight on and off a lot the bar, but ours was small enough that it wasn't a major time concern.
Later I did it solo and my workout times were ~30 minutes for the quick day, and ~45 minutes for the long day. The long day being squat/bench/row, and I felt like my breather periods were very generous.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/defranco-agile-8
I personally do squats, deadlifts, 3 minute planks at the very end of workout ('finisher') and other exercises where core is a secondary, stabilizing muscle (pullups, running etc).
For start I would recommend something with body weight (pushups, planks), simple and easy to do, and focus on many repetitions. Much safer than trying to push to your max and injure something in your back with long recovery.
It's a mistake in training to focus only on one part of the body. Over time developing all muscles helps tremendously with any activity/sport.
It does seem like this is one of the better ways to go about it, where you have to get up. In my case the vending machine that takes Apple Pay is across campus/base a quarter mile away.
No matter what I tried, sitting with good posture was never comfortable. It wasn't until I visited a physio who told me not to worry about it, that I could sit however was comfortable and it wouldn't hurt my back, people are built differently, that the pain started going away.
I challenge you to find someone who sits with good posture who -doesn't- have back pain. So my question is, why do you want to sit in a particular way? What does good mean to you?
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15939377/ns/health-health_care/t/e...
In regards to ergonomics, it's right under our noses but it seems to be overlooked - cars' seats seem to have perfect ergonomics. I can sit in mine for 2 hours straight and have no desire to adjust anything at all, and getting out feel the same as before I got in, besides the unavoidable slight stiffness that'll come with any prolonged stillness like that. Compare to any other sitting arrangement, where I'll inevitably either want to adjust it over time, move in it a bit, or realize I've been sitting wrongly in it causing a minor back pain or the like. Maybe office desk/chair ergonomics need to take a cue from car interiors.
I don't own a car so o rent a variety of different ones. The headrest always forces my neck forward. The bucket shape of the seats closes my chest and causes shoulder issues.
As others have said too, lifting weights / yoga.
There is no "easy" answer. Sitting seems very bad. These recent discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16465294 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16471215 are useful.
If you're both typing into your laptop keyboard and trying to view its screen, you'll have no choice but to slouch or hunch.
To get the screen to the right height relative to the keyboard (for upright posture and elbows at a right angle at your side), even a short person should lift their laptop by over 18 inches (roughly the distance from waist to shoulder).
2) Get a vision exam annually and corrective lenses if appropriate so you never have to lean in to your screen.
And I'd echo lifting weights.
- Using a standing desk, and alternating between sitting and standing during the day.
- Using a break program (I use MacBreakZ) to do some stretches every 45 minutes or so.
The #1 thing that helped me was sitting forward, on the edge of the chair, with legs tucked in, and removing the arm rests so my arms hang down naturally. A lot of people say it's unnatural, therefore, unhealthy, for humans to sit for 8 hours a day, but that's not entirely true. Humans have been riding horses and camels since practically the dawn of history, sometimes for >8 hours a day, weeks at a time, however these animals do not have arm rests or back rests.
The #2 thing was getting ergonomic equipment. Most office equipment is not designed for ergonomics, but economics. For a keyboard, I highly recommend the Kinesis Advantage2. The scooped design conforms naturally to the curves of the human hand. Though you have to relearn typing to an extent, it's totally worth it. You will also need an adjustable height external monitor. If you don't want to pay, don't be shy to ask your employer. It's an investment that pays off big in your efficiency.
The #3 thing was doing wall slides. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOtlRQxwt3g This doesn't help with the pain, but it is the only exercise I've ever tried that corrects kyphotic posture. Immediately after I started doing them, friends and family were asking me if I've gotten taller. It activates muscles in the upper back that I didn't even know existed.
I also sit forward. I think of it as active posture. I'm holding myself upright. Versus slouching. When I "lean into" my work, I imagine myself being more attentive, productive. (I wouldn't know how to measure that.)
I'd only add that everyone should get regular physical therapy tune ups. I've always been active (hiking, cycling, gym) so I thought I was doing pretty good. Turns out I had been neglecting my smaller muscles and balance. I was shocked how much functionality I had lost. Like standing on one foot to put on the other sock.
For further motivation, all the balance exercises have helped build my body awareness and therefore my posture.
Emphatic agreement on multidiscplinary strategy.
But since I’m the least qualified participant, I wish my caregivers would talk to each other (coordinate) directly, instead of thru me. aka integrated care
Regarding #1: Interesting observation about the horse and camel riding. However, I think there's more hip extension involved in both of those activities. I imagine there's also more muscle engagement in both too. Still an interesting point though. Makes me wonder if there's middle ground, regarding hip extension, while sitting. People typically talk about sitting vs standing at desks. I wonder if there's a place for chairs that sit higher off the ground to allow for more hip extension and sitting on the edge.
All speculation on my part.
After some years using Aeron and Embody, I switched to an active chair and never looked back.
Some active chairs are listed in this old review: http://www.nerdgranny.com/review-ergonomic-chairs/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Opsvik needs to be better known outside Scandinavia.
Heh, riding a horse or camel, even traveling slowly, is nothing like sitting at a desk — it’s a workout in itself.
Me, I prefer extended work with a laptop in bed or on a couch. So far, so good, but wrist braces also help, mainly since I do all sorts of bizarre contortions otherwise. On the other hand, I also type less and perhaps think more than many other engineers I’ve seen...
more generally: Have monitors high so you are looking straight ahead. Feet flat on the floor a good chair that adjusts to your body.
ie there is no way you can work on a laptop in a cafe 6+ hrs a day without getting chronic back problems.
This is the dirty little secret of the hip modern agile coworking 24/7 hackathon startup/freelancer/diy tech lifestyle. Our sleek streamlined unibody laptops are amazing tools but they are horrible for our bodies.
Leaning back in a chair is ok so long as your back is straight
Of course by Murphy's law it will probably first cause a whole new class of ergonomy injuries due to extra, imbalanced weight on the neck, but one day...
If you don't do this already then ensure that your knees are lower than your hips by placing a cushion or something underneath you [1]. That seems to help promote the natural curve in the lower back. Doing that while gently lowering shoulders, keeping them back, and raising the chest forward a bit helps a lot. For me it's a dynamic process that requires frequent checking-in to make adjustments and release tension.
[1] https://www.garmaonhealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Sea...
Linked from this site https://www.garmaonhealth.com/meditation-posture-manifests-g...
Besides that, regular exercise helps tremendously. Seriously, if you do not exercise at least twice a week, I would strongly advise making beginning to do so your highest priority.
I'm 6'4", so nothing 'standard' even confess close to being ergonomic