Ask HN: Washing out, and what to do next
Moved out of state and had two other jobs programming. The first didn't have enough work to keep me around, and started the second. I just quit that one after 8 months. It is probably my last as a programmer, my resume just has too many red flags from a hiring perspective, and are probably right in their assumption, along with my wariness of the field as a whole.
My question is, how did you folks out there find another career? DJing a strip club, no joke, is not going to be a viable long term solution, and for the first time have _no_ clue what to do next. No debt, children or any serious obligations, only caveat would be lack of higher education, so I can entertain a bunch of options.
What did you do to start a new chapter? Not trying to drum up a pity party, just looking for fresh perspectives out there on stepping into the unknown.
60 comments
[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 102 ms ] threadFind something that makes money, retrain, get it done.
Hard to say what you should go to without knowing what you disliked about the current thing.
Issues I had: Crazy hours, the interview process... and with the bay area the CoL. Last job was a little more complicated, but I would say I need a certain degree of autonomy. Things were measured to 15 minute intervals on tickets, and I couldn't do it.
Retraining... I have thought about this. I don't know if something like CNC operator is the way to go, or follow a passion. No clue on what to look for or what makes sense. Don't know bang for your buck works there.
How about visiting https://www.keyvalues.com, seeing which things interest you, and see what companies meet your interests? As others have said, there's huge amount of variety in jobs and companies.
My advice to someone interviewing now: if something smells funky during the interview process, trust your gut.
Gaming is to programing what sweat shops are to the fashion industry. It is a big big world find something lower key and lower stress would be my recommendation.
As for the gaps and the year stints, your young (in your career) no one is going to think twice about it if you move into another vertical.
I would second thrownaway954's comment about finding jobs that take advantage of your programming background, and especially in security. Being able to understand the deeper technical aspects of systems and to troubleshoot issues that you spot can be a real differentiator over people who have some technical knowledge but can't really do much drilling down past running security scans.
If you're not hostile to federal employment or have personal hobbies that could cause obstacles to such employment, there is a lot of handwringing about finding good cybersecurity people. That is going to be a kinder work week, too.
I'd say my higher level comment though is to echo that short stints of employment aren't dealbreakers, and don't get stuck thinking too negatively about your experience or your resume. Get a second and/or third opinion from other people who can give you an impartial impression of your resume and talk through how you address those experiences in interviews. I've been involved in the hiring process recently for several positions and especially for younger people I actually expect them to be moving from company to company pretty often, if for no other reason than it can be hard to make meaningful salary gains without doing so. If you don't hate the day-to-day activities of the work, don't give up on it - just put more research into finding better environments.
I actually provide one-on-one consulting for tech freelancers and founders, if you're interested.
[1] www.sellsomemore.com
BTW, you might also consider working for one of the big consulting outfits, especially if travel is appealing to you, as an alternative to temporary contract work.
If you just crave variety, then doing short consulting contracts might be interesting to you. Recruiters are always looking for people to do 6mo contracts.
I am not 100% done with programming as a career, but it turns out that most of my project stints were shorter and barely lasting a year.
Besides that, there is a huge question mark in the middle of my resume where I was doing contract work which wasn't regular for the time period, but it was pretty interesting compared to going to a soulless Open Workspace! for forty hours a week and put me in constant contact with the local startup culture.
If anything, I'm leaning towards doing remote stuff again, but it's pretty hard to find and I've already sworn off Elance/ODesk.
Have you checked out https://codefor.cash there are some other sites besides this that focus exclusively on remote work.
My solution is to take contract work. It helps so much to know that there is a definite end date coming up where I can step away from the company and forget about all of the nonsense. Having time off between contracts helps me recover from the hard work and overtime. It also has a second benefit of allowing me to charge a higher rate, because sometimes companies value a person who is available to jump in at a moment's notice to help with a crisis.
Having a decade of short-term jobs listed on my resume might sound bad, but it's worked out very well for me, in compensation and in skills development. Rather than be negative about not lasting long at one company, why not be proud of the diversity of experience you have and at how comfortable you are with joining a brand new team?
I also really need to step my marketing game up.
This is not a quick tactic, but it is a good longer-term strategy for building a following and a reputation.
So my bit of advice is: none of that actually matters. Use the domain you have (sounds like you are!), pick the easiest platform to get started with, and write stuff. It's the writing stuff (and publishing it) that matters :)
Slapping something together quick and dirty.
1. 6-month contracts and the like, which you can via staffing companies like Randstad and Winter-Wyman ("contract staffing"). My impression this is rather like interviewing for a job twice a year.
2. Lots of short-term contracts (aka freelancer). This is very different, you're basically running your own business. You'll need to do a bunch of work to learn relevant business skills. E.g. lots of contents on http://doubleyourfreelancing.com
I wouldn't say that they are ever looking for true experts, but having at least some experience relevant to the project is necessary. Any one of the following on your resume should be enough: front end web development with React or Angular, back end with Node.js or Java, devops, AWS, iOS, Android, etc.
I have no self-marketing skills at all, and a few of my first contract jobs came through a recruiting agency. Since then, I've gotten work through referrals from people I worked with before. The best thing about moving around between jobs is that you eventually get to know a lot of people who have seen your capabilities and are eager to bring you into their new team.
What makes you think you can't wash out of being a DJ or any other job?
People overlook red flags on a resume if you are the right fit. I have switched jobs just about once a year for 5 years and I still find jobs if I look in the right place. There are always people looking for talented people who do not fit into the mold of a perfect hire. Do not let a couple short gigs dissuade you.
The hiring process is something I would be totally alright with never doing again. Along with the hours at some places and with the feeling you need to take a job. I haven't had options when it comes to work. I'll take it if you give it to me.
I did RoR development back in the day, and worked on interesting challenges shoehorning that to scale for a fairly successful game. Worked with node and a smattering of mobile.
How do you break into other fields?
Tech around me is mainly medical and then aerospace.
Maybe you want another IT position, just not software (ie have you looked into hardware or networking)
Their are many good middle class careers to be had - big city, small town, blue collar, or white collar. Narrow it down by your life preferences.
My knowledge of how software works, and my ability to dive into the codebase to understand why something isn't working gives me a huge edge in this role. The fact that I like the space I'm in keeps me interested. Management like that I have the knowledge and skills I have and so I'm paid well enough for it. But all the while, I'm not doing the 9-to-5 code monkey stuff anymore. I don't know that I'll do this forever- some parts of coding draw me back- but it's a nice vacation from my career for a few years.
So my advice: find something you're interested in that has tech involved somehow. Go to the business or application side and find a role there where your background and knowledge is a major asset. Maybe even reach out to some companies you think might have or need such roles and explain yourself.
LinkedIn Resumes are filled with software engineers who don't last longer than 12 months, just look at all your coworker's linkedIn profiles. It's not that uncommon.
If you don't mind sharing, what were some attributes that made the company the right one and what were attributes of the companies you didn't like?
Bad companies typically have low retention and are always losing employees for one reason or another.
I became a security analyst. It's a way easier (though be it, less exciting) gig than being a programmer. Also being a programmer gave me a boost in a bunch of the domains (CISSP talk there) that cover the profession.
A bunch of other people I know have moved to other areas like:
Database Administrator, Network Administrator, System Administrator, Quality Assurance Analyst
Point is, you have WAAAAAAAAY more talents in those bones of your than you are willing to give yourself credit for... Don't give up yet!!!
If you can join a good company I'm sure you'd swiftly become indispensable.
I'm in the same age group as you. I've never coded more or better in my life and I don't see that changing any time soon.
Just a few hours ago, I got off a recruiter phone call where the woman wanted me to sugar-coat my history with my former employers when I went to interview. I told her, "No, if they ask what happened I have no issues telling them." If you're an interviewer and you get offended by me stating the facts--that many companies just downright suck--then that tells me all I need to know about your own insecurities.
You are basically signaling what type of person you are, divulging critical information to the hiring manager when you do this.
Specifically, you are saying that you will not put up with BS. The problem is, work is generally at least 60% BS, and as a hiring manager, you want someone who will put up with the shit to get to the glory. And you really want someone who believes there is glory to be had - that person will outwork anyone else.
So you've signaled that you will not outwork others and that you will not put up with BS - you're interviewing and have already exposed yourself as a flight risk willing to do less than a theoretical other person would.
So yeah, they will pass on you in droves unless you have some unique aspect to your profile that makes you uniquely qualified.
Did you write the book on what the company is trying to do? If yes, more power to you - people put up with Steve Jobs to get access to his potential. Maybe you're worth it.
If not, you'll have to find someone who appreciates you and your values. And forget company value statements - that shit means nothing in the day-to-day. What you're basically looking for is a hiring manager with strong values aligned to yours, who also has the power to do the hire. And you'll find him if you look hard enough.
Why does the responsibility for toxic culture and unethical behavior fall on me, the applicant, the one with the least amount of power and leverage in the interview process? Why do companies get free passes on ridiculous behavior while I am supposed to compromise what I believe in to placate others? I'm asking a philosophical question, of course, but it's an important one: If not enough people stand up for themselves, we get worker mistreatment and toxic work environments.
One thing software development allows you to do is work remotely from a beach (if that's your cup of tea). That way you don't have to deal with all that office nonsense ;-)
Here's your mistake: They're not asking you what happened.
They're saying, "Tell us diplomatically why you left your last employer without blaming anyone and coming across as a friendly person we want to work with."
If the answer is yes, then don't give up. Move. Go to NYC or Chicago. Talk to few recruiters and have them help you "polish" your resume so that things you might consider harmful would not be prominent.
I'm always fascinated by people who start in the field and then change their minds. Obviously if you've never liked it then do something else, open a surf shop or taco stand. But as far as programming, for the foreseeable future it will be in high demand.
Seriously, don't give up!
I try to do this exercise at least once a year. It helps me to distill what it is exactly I'm working towards. Your values will change over the course of your life and it's important to continuously re-evaluate what matters to you now. With your values in mind, you can then make sure that your behaviors are in line with what you care about most. Having a general "north star" will help you evaluate different options as you continue to brainstorm and think about what you want to do next.
Good luck! And congratulations! :D