Ask HN: Is Perl dead?

The only place i see it is in some old scripts running at customers and they ALWAYS are a nightmare, unmaintainable, horrific, spaghetti code that oftern enough makes me want to poke my eyeballs out. Mostly, the customer agrees with me, but usually those scripts are too big to be replaced quickly... :/

It isn't "dead" anymore than the Norwegian language is "dead".

It might just not be your first choice for your next project.

First, anyone who says that Python or Ruby is not even comparable to Perl is full of it or very mistaken. They are close enough that we quickly run into the narcissism of small differences [1].

Second, in my experience HN ranges from uninterested to hostile when it comes to Perl. I read lots about Perl, but many of the blogs or forums I frequent are Perl-centric. My point is simply that you shouldn't judge by "what you read" if what you read is a function of what you choose or who you follow.

Third, and most importantly, the Perl5 community doesn't seem anywhere near dead. Off the top of my head, I'm particularly happy with a slew of new tools for working with Perl and CPAN: cpanm[2], perlbrew[3], cpan-outdated[4], pmuninstall[5], cpansearch [6] (written in C, but obviously made for the Perl community). There's also Plack[7] for modern Perl webapps. Finally, consider the whole Modern Perl[8] movement.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences

[2] http://github.com/miyagawa/cpanminus

[3] http://github.com/gugod/App-perlbrew

[4] http://github.com/tokuhirom/cpan-outdated

[5] http://github.com/xaicron/pm-uninstall

[6] http://github.com/c9s/cpansearch

[7] http://plackperl.org/

[8] http://github.com/chromatic/modern_perl_book

Now, on the other hand, if I had actually taken the time to become a Perl monk, and good grasp enough of the awesome stuff coming down the line and know exactly how it would fit into real-world problems- Perl wouldn't even be close to dead to me. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there that are in that group. I'm jealous but not quite enough to actually try to get up to speed on it.

If it's not dead to you then I would recommend having no hesitations using it. It'll certainly be supported, and libraries... I mean, I don't know of anything that comes close to touching CPAN yet (dunno how Perl 6 fits in there). For me, though, it's dead as an alternative unless I see something amazingly compelling that I can't get elsewhere without similar learning investment.

Yeah, me too, but that's the issue. It's great at that. Great at quick and dirty command line hacks. Hell, most of my PhD code was written in Perl. (Something I take a perverse satisfaction in.)

But it's not great for rapid webapp development, it's probably harder to hire people, there are fewer libraries and interfaces and open source toolkits, etc - so people like me moved from Perl to Python (it's a really easy jump).

I still use my old perl scripts now and again, but even for quick and dirty stuff I tend to use Python - just in case I want to come back to it later and have a chance of understanding what the hell I wrote. :)

(Aside: One of my summer internships was on the web backend team at my university's Engineering lab. We wrote an object oriented student class administration system, in Perl. It was quite probably the most hideous piece of software engineering I've ever seen...)

SysAdmins are slow to discard a good tool; hell, some of us still use bash. Perl 5 has been dominant for most of my career in this arena, and things will be quite slow to change.

I do see that Python is beginning to replace perl in the places where perl5 replaced bash in the earliest parts of my career... I remember back in the late '90s it was common to maintain two versions of perl on a system. Now, perl5 is stable... you almost never need more than one version of it, but I see systems (especially RHEL systems) with more than one version of python (sometimes more than two. Gah!)

Personally I don't expect Perl 6 to have a noticeable impact soon, I've read about it and I've never thought "that's what I've been missing all the time."

Let me tell you what I'm really missing -- something even simpler than Python which would allow me to draw the random graphical things with basic interactive possibilities but with the ease of old Basic languages. I've used tkinter a few times but every time I have to make something new I just discover I've forgot all the illogical things I had to do the last time, and the old source is not of much help, I know I'll have to spend trying a lot just to make something simple, so I lose the will to even start again...

Perl 6 is a really promising language with tons of cool features, and some similarities to Perl 5. It will pick up hype when it's 100% finalized, even though you can use it now.

Perl 5 (popularly known as "Perl") is old enough to be on the other side of "cool", but it's a perfectly good language, especially if you use CPAN.

However: many of us believe that Perl's day has come and gone and that truly modern languages like Ruby and Python have supplanted it. Absolutely true for me; I never use Perl when I can use Ruby -- not because of political reasons, but because Ruby is more elegant, readable, and concise.

As always, YMMV.

...actually, it's probably pining for the fjords.

  http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~ebarnes/python/dead-parrot.htm

Perl is Dead. Long Live Perl. http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2007/08/perl_is_dead_l...

It's an essay from 2007, but I think it's still relevant today.

That being said, Ruby is close enough to Perl to where it would not be difficult for you to pick it up and in all likelihood you'll actually enjoy it (especially if you're been writing clean, object oriented Perl). If there's a Ruby-based job that interests you, go for it.

I personally, "moved on" (for non-trivial personal projects) onto Scala and OCaml: I actually like static typing (when there's type inference to reduce verbosity) and the mixed paradigms and "terse syntax" in these languages appeal to my Perl hacker DNA. The fact they're also blazingly fast means I don't have to "go down" to C++ (really, not all that hard in Perl with XS): the scalability of these languages (being suitable to whole variety of tasks, from simple scripts, to full systems) also appeals to me.

As others have written, Python and Ruby fill the same niches and have about the same features.

  - perl: 4448 results
  - python: 1988
  - ruby: 1087

a) Perl was used for EVERYTHING web-related in the early 2000s, but other languages and tools have come around to supplant it.

Several commenters have already said, "oh man I had to deal with this legacy perl code and it was awful," and yeah, that's a common experience and makes them think, "Perl is a terrible legacy language, I can't wait to trash it on my Ruby mailing list tonight." The negativity propagates and then people like you wonder, "is Perl dead?"

b) Web frameworks are one of those tools where frameworks like Rails and Django have all the hype. If you want to whip up your startup idea into a minimum viable web application, the trendy choice is Rails or Django. I've used Perl web frameworks like Catalyst and I'll be the first to admit banging out your "It's like Facebook... But For Cats!" startup idea is a lot faster in Rails or Django.

c) As Steve Yegge said in one of his blog posts:

'As I've done for a great many other programming languages, I've bashed on Perl's technical weaknesses at length in the past. To my continued amazement, the Perl folks are the only ones who never get upset. They just say "Haha, yeah, boy, you're right, it sure is ugly. Heh. Yeah, so, um, anyway, I'm going to get back to work now..." It's awesome. I've gained so much respect for them. It's almost enough to make me go back to programming in Perl.'

In my experience (which of course is just as anecdotal at Steve's), this is very true. Zed Shaw writes yet another blog post blasting whatever technology crawled up his ass and died, and we just smirk and update our modules on CPAN. But while that means we're not getting caught up in the "narcissism of small differences" (to refer to an earlier commenter), it also means we're not part of the noise on the web. There will probably never be a "Perl is a Ghetto" blog post written, and while that's obviously a good thing, it can also lead to the perception that, "man, nobody's talking about Perl, nobody's even bashing Perl, is it dead?"

d) That said, in my opinion these languages don't hold a candle to Perl when it comes to back-end engineering. We love talking about startups here at HN and thus, we talk a lot about startup problems and their solutions. But if your startup actually grows into a real company, you're going to encounter problems like, "we need a system to allow our analysts to manage our SEM campaigns and reconcile our cost and revenue" or "this partner doesn't have an API so we need to spider their interface to get the daily data and import it into our data warehouse." And any company that dismisses Perl as an option for those problems just because of (a) (b) and (c) is doing their company a disservice.

TL;DR -- Perl's strengths don't match the trendy topics on communities like HN, but it still has real value for real business problems.