I am not Japanese, I can only marvel at the complexity and subtleness of Japanese culture. But I sort of get it, you start interacting with anyone and it opens you up to the pressure and the questions and with Enryo you can't really talk openly and be accepted. Would these people be happier living outside of Japan?
I'm not japanese so I don't know. But I know that human beings are intensely social creatures and being alone, even if in self exile must be painful. The pain they have must be less than the pain they feel being around others. Some would probably consider going to other lands but sounds like they don't have money for the option. The $25 million the japanese government needs for them sounds like a really small number for nearly half a million of them..
I do well in the states but I think I could relate to what they did in Japan since Japan places such huge amounts of value on honor and self success. It sounds like a double edge sword. It's good to have a society that values success but leaving about half a percent of the population as shut ins doesn't seem right.
> But I know that human beings are intensely social creatures and being alone, even if in self exile must be painful.
I'm not diagnosed as autistic or as a psychopath, but I'm really not a very emotional or social person. I take great pleasure in being alone, far from the madding crowd, and I find it much more difficult to be among other people, mandating the menagerie of masks necessary for me to get where I want to go in society w.r.t. my career etc. I say masks, because unlike many people I seem to meet, I do not have any enthusiasm for consumption, decadence and self-gratification.
I mean, I'm no buddhist or anarchist, I just prefer to perfect my craft over going out on the town or accumulating wealth I'll never use. I'm happy with cereal, I don't need some kind of smoked dolphin's nose on squid-ink dyed seventy-seed toast. I therefore have to act in a certain way, other than as myself, in order to be perceived to be relating to people I meet and work with.
In reality, you might call me a stoic, to use a loose definition of the term. I don't find it painful to act like someone I'm fundamentally not, indeed to act in an archetype I internally find rather absurd, but it is tiresome. It tires me greatly to be among other people, and I try to keep my relationships with others to a minimum. I have nothing to hide, I just prefer to spend time in solitary and uninterrupted recreation or study, refining skills and knowledge of topics I find interesting.
I'm not disagreeing with you, and I'm not saying that my individual existence is a significant indicator of anything contrary to your point, but my existence does at least indicate that some humans (since I find it difficult to believe I am alone) aren't as intensely social or pained by isolation as you say – and I dare say there's more than a little overlap between the set of asocial humans and the set of self-isolating hikikomori who prefer no company at all.
Though, in my experience on anonymous message boards over the past fifteen years online, hikikomori (or at least the western equivalent) seem to prefer the company of others like themselves whom they may encounter on said message boards. Or some certainly act like they prefer the imagined company of anime/video game characters to the company of other human beings, most of whom will never, ever come close to understanding them or what they're about.
I think everyone is in search of a tribe to be a part of, even the hikikomori. I'm a loner also. I grew up on the countryside with no one to talk except close family. I had a lot of books to read. The internet looks like a lot of tribes but the more you observe, the more inhuman it appears. The web seems like the ideal place to fit in with all its possibilities but it falls short. Even in the country I interact with people on a weekly basis.
Now if I were a real loner I'd move to the wastes of Alaska and tough it out there. Most of us depend on civilization and that makes us all oddly social at least.
I do hate crowds and their single cell animal like behavior. Sometimes I avoid a crowd behavior to a fault. It is hard to undo 40 years of my behavior.
I would honestly prefer to eliminate human interaction. Or at least, if I had to choose between no human interaction and lots of interaction, I would choose none. Fortunately the internet exists, and thus I can moderate and filter my interaction. That is what I find valuable about the internet – I entered expecting nothing, honestly I was just seeking information when I heard the dial-up tone for the first time. But what I found were people who, while not necessary like me, were talking about things that interested me, things I could never discuss with people in my physical vicinity at school or at home.
But there is a difference, and this is the part that I find to be at odds with the idea of seeking a tribe (in my case). When I speak to people on the internet, I feel more as though I'm speaking to an idea, usually one that is contrary to my own. That's precisely why I like it, I'm not socialising, I'm pursuing an idea to its conclusion as I might a puzzle or a game.
There are other things that are good about the internet, of course. No one's voice is greater or lesser on account of their status or anecdotal evidence. There are just ideas and arguments. Ideas and arguments I am quite capable of thinking up and testing internally, by playing devil's advocate, but I find it less efficient. Same goes for the socialising that is necessary to work, to have a home, etc. I often (at least in my youth) dreamed about living in a lighthouse or some kind of cabin, miles from anyone, but I find a modicum of social interaction to be preferable given that, in exchange, I don't have to go foraging for food or firewood, I can just go to the store and pay for a heating system, respectively.
I guess I really struggle with close relationships. I've had a few in my time, and every time I have brought the relationship to a conclusion because I came to resent that other person's need for interaction at inopportune (for me) times. I could go the entire day and barely acknowledge their existence, and that's not really a healthy relationship when one does that. It's not fair on them, and the moment I start to act and pretend to be something I'm not (an attentive partner who is concerned about the minutiae of my significant other's life) it becomes unfair on me. Resentment is probably the biggest killer of relationships for most people, especially when it's financial or sexual, but in my case it's much simpler: I just want to be alone.
Another thing I like about the internet is that the socialising I've done, and continue to do, is on-demand i.e. I can socialise with people when I have some time to set aside, in a state that is neither tired enough to sleep and yet not energised enough to work productively on something I care about. In the real world, or in a relationship, socialising occurs at times that are not of my choosing, for durations that are not of my choosing (often longer than I'd like) and concerning topics that do not remotely interest me.
This conversation you and I are having right now is relevant to my interests (psychology in general, not narcissistic self-interest) and thus I choose to perpetuate it by replying. If this message draws the conversation to a conclusion, or if your prospective reply leaves nothing further to be said, I can simply move on to the next thing. I don't need to find a new topic to raise with you. I don't have to worry about you. It's simply done.
tl; dr: internet socialising is both rather unsocial (I have no idea who you are, you don't know who I am, and while we could perhaps dox each other, there's no need, and thus only our words on a given topic matter) and transactional, and thus the internet enables me to prevent myself from getting tired due to over-socialising while at the same time pursuing a line of thought to its conclusion more efficiently (or at least with half the effort) than I might do myself.
Edit: there's another factor that brings me to s...
Being actually really isolated is not same as being able to regulate amount of socialization you are exposed to. The amount of optimal amount of socialization vary and some people are more strict about what socialization count.
However, real comlte isolation tend to drive people crazy (in medical sense and in long term - recovéry is hard).
Regarding total isolation and regulated socialising, I know, I probably wasn't clear. I should have clearly stated that I concede that point. I wanted to indicate that I accept that I do not seek total isolation at present when I said "if I had to choose between total isolation..." and so on.
The bulk of my previous post was mostly about how I don't really seek to be part of a group of people, I just like talking.
Still, I find it difficult to believe that I would lose my sanity with only myself to talk to. But then again, I've never truly tried it, so I cannot say that I wouldn't go mad.
Though I already talk to myself when I'm just around the house. Not to remember things, just because I enjoy it, maybe a debate about a decision or a topic that comes to mind.
I'll probably stop there before I am accused of being insane (insert awkward laugh here).
Are you intp or intj? Mbti sounds like bs on the surface but it's interesting how reliable it is. Several times there was a strawpoll on 4chan's /biz/ and afair about 80% got that categories, on /r/anarcho_capitalism 60% [0] got it.
Demand characteristics always come into play with such tests, at least when it comes to evaluating groups of people like any group of 4chan or reddit folk. I wouldn't mind betting that a significant portion of them want to be perceived as INTJ/INTP, and are at least clever enough to know how to answer such questionnaires to achieve their desired result. And if not, they'll just repeat the questionnaire until they have something to screenshot.
But to answer your question, I just did an MBTI test for you and from my responses I was determined to be INTJ.
>Demand characteristics always come into play with such tests, at least when it comes to evaluating groups of people like any group of 4chan or reddit folk
Even if, the desired choice had to be established somehow.
>I was determined to be INTJ
Answering honestly, yes? I asked because I thought "I could have written this" (well except the book writing part); I also get intj.
Of course it's gameable, but when answered honestly I found it works very well for clustering (intp/intj as one cluster); the personality description is irrelevant. I started from the position of extreme skepticism.
It's possible it's less reliable for other personality types.
> I say masks, because unlike many people I seem to meet, I do not have any enthusiasm for consumption, decadence and self-gratification.
You sound insufferable. It's fine not to have in common with people, but pretending you can't get along with others because of their "consumption, decadence, and self-gratification" sounds like nothing more than an excuse for poor social skills.
Every day I break bread with people I have almost nothing in common with, and still manage to have interesting and pleasant conversations. I don't feel the need to collapse into a ball of self-righteous contempt.
I am insufferable. Were I not insufferable to people like yourself, for one reason or another, I would not need to wear masks.
I have social skills, and a tongue of only the finest sterling silver, so I need no excuse for a lack of such things. I just wanted to speak frankly about how much I loathe socialising with people, because I find them essentially hollow and/or self-interested.
Any given person may see me as both hollow and self-interested from their perspective, but this is irrelevant to the point I'm making. I see no reason to want to talk to people who are not really listening, so I try to avoid it.
There are times when it cannot be avoided, but that's the price one pays to earn money, which is in turn required to pay live for a home with electricity and an internet connection. I suppose I could just become a bum, drifting between coffee shops with WiFi, but then where would I sleep? Pretty sure I'd have to socialise more if I were to go down that route anyway.
Also, if I 'collapsed into a ball of self-righteous contempt', I'm pretty sure I would be saying 'I cannot socialise' not 'I hate socialising'. Just a minor detail about your slightly rude reply, it doesn't matter that much.
He is not being rude but rather blunt. Bitter medicine. You fail at socialization and blame the world. You never blame yourself and your negative attitude. You never progress and choose to simply isolate yourself instead of difficult and challenging self-improvement. This guy isn't being rude he is giving you the proper attitude adjustment recommendation that will help you succeed in social life! Otherwise I heard that there is a beautiful forest in Japan that you might want to visit - it has all the isolation that you would ever want.
You are literally telling someone to go kill themself because they personally don't find it necessary to socialize and maintain personal relationships with others and prefer to be left alone to their own devices. I think you're the one that needs an attitude adjustment.
Okay, yeah this answers my question from another comment. You seem like someone who gets pooped on all day, so you're taking it out on people on the internet. If you are American I feel you yourself probably are a minimum wage, or low-level office worker and your libertarianism is your way of making yourself feel better about your position. But hey, at least you have a job, right?
This thing you describe comes from internal resistance (may also be called self-reactive filtering) where environment -say, groups of people that you may have some rigid bindings with,(like workplace)- display just the slightest (very toned-down) air of viscious but very real and directed hostility. It's the artifice that bothers you, but this stuff goes deeper. You can fix that by building friendships with open (foolish) people, you just need to find some good ones. Friendships do take some effort, though.
At a previous temporary job posting in northern Europe/Scandinavia I worked with some Japanese men and women (three individuals in total) - all fantastic people by the way, I still regard myself an active/actual friend of all of them - who all basically first went there as part of a student exchange program and then realized/thought they would be happier there than back in Japan and then made an explicit decision to stay and try to get jobs.
I discussed this topic in varying degrees with these people. The message was relatively uniform: they didn't think the Japanese work culture was healthy and what they had witnessed studying in Scandinavia encouraged them to stay there. After a while they made an explicit decision to try build their life there. They had been there for like 5-10 years already when I met them; two had families with young kids and one was still dating.
This kind of "escape" requires quite strong language skills though. And social skills.
Of course these individuals were preselected in various ways, like
1) attempting to go study abroad in a Scandinavian country (that in itself is a fairly extreme decision in Japan, I have been led to believe)
2) deciding to stay
3) getting a position in the multi-national company I was temporarily working at
So I'm definitely not saying all Japanese people feel this way. But still I feel it's relevant to note this kind of escape for Japanese people who feel they are not cut out for the traditional way of doing things.
I believe so, yes. Japan currently has an incredibly lonely culture that results not in the hikikomori trend we see but also elderly people purposely getting arrested so that they can have more of a social life [1].
So you have people at all fringes of society either withdrawing from it, or desperate to find somewhere to belong.
"There are more than half a million hikikomori in Japan — according to the latest government survey published in 2016 — defined as people who have stayed home for more than six months without going to school or work and interacting with no one other than family."
One question for the hikikomori. If they don't work, how do they get money? I'm sure they can live relatively inexpensive lives but how do they get money to pay for rent? Does he work remotely? Bitcoin investments? So many questions...
I actually think more or less similar developments are happening in the US and Europe. Instead of the specific term hikikomori, they call it an extended adolescence or something similar. Though, 'extended adolescents' do not necessarily shun society. They do live with their parents in most cases, from my own experience at least.
Having said that I may be completely off base here since I do not know Japanese culture well enough.
It's a little bit different. In most cases for US and Europe, it is because of the high cost of housing and rent. I know a lot of friends who saved up a lot of money by living with parents from the ages of 21-30. I believe most want to stay with parents and save up until marriage.
The issue with hikikimori is not living with their parent, but being a shut in. Completely. Literally leaving their room only late evening to grab some food at the local 7/11 or something.
It happens in all societies where people are forced to conform and markets are closed to people without a license. Japan is economically the mono-ethnic version of what US/EU are moving towards: a society where you must fill in the boxes given by the system or f* off.
On hacker news since most people are in CS/IT, a field that is almost free (but not for long), it may look like we still live under goverments that are business friendly. But that's not the case at all in other sectors, and many people aten't allowed to find a place in the market.
People today can't get their feet wet when trying to find a place in the market, they must immediately do a full dive. No wonder more and more are drowning.
What an anti-social sentiment. It is not the responsibility for the market to find a "place" for you. It is your job to make that happen. What are you... unemployable? Spending too much time playing video games instead of learning multivariate calculus?
I believe a lot of the fear of hikikomori can be resolved by working remotely.
I'm an American who spent only 5 years working in an office before coming to the conclusion that it wasn't for me. I spend most of my time working from home these days, with the occasional trip to San Francisco to make an appearance at HQ.
Because I still contribute to society, my relationship with my wife stay strong, I am able to socialize without anxiety, and depression from conforming to office society is long passed.
I still shun society in many other ways. I disagree with some schooling systems, most political systems, and others beyond the scope of this comment, but working from home gives me the willpower to make compromises.
I am really close to agreeing with you on this. A few weeks ago when I saw another article about the hikikomori I also wondered if that would be my response to life if I had the opportunity.
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[ 2.4 ms ] story [ 92.5 ms ] threadI do well in the states but I think I could relate to what they did in Japan since Japan places such huge amounts of value on honor and self success. It sounds like a double edge sword. It's good to have a society that values success but leaving about half a percent of the population as shut ins doesn't seem right.
I'm not diagnosed as autistic or as a psychopath, but I'm really not a very emotional or social person. I take great pleasure in being alone, far from the madding crowd, and I find it much more difficult to be among other people, mandating the menagerie of masks necessary for me to get where I want to go in society w.r.t. my career etc. I say masks, because unlike many people I seem to meet, I do not have any enthusiasm for consumption, decadence and self-gratification.
I mean, I'm no buddhist or anarchist, I just prefer to perfect my craft over going out on the town or accumulating wealth I'll never use. I'm happy with cereal, I don't need some kind of smoked dolphin's nose on squid-ink dyed seventy-seed toast. I therefore have to act in a certain way, other than as myself, in order to be perceived to be relating to people I meet and work with.
In reality, you might call me a stoic, to use a loose definition of the term. I don't find it painful to act like someone I'm fundamentally not, indeed to act in an archetype I internally find rather absurd, but it is tiresome. It tires me greatly to be among other people, and I try to keep my relationships with others to a minimum. I have nothing to hide, I just prefer to spend time in solitary and uninterrupted recreation or study, refining skills and knowledge of topics I find interesting.
I'm not disagreeing with you, and I'm not saying that my individual existence is a significant indicator of anything contrary to your point, but my existence does at least indicate that some humans (since I find it difficult to believe I am alone) aren't as intensely social or pained by isolation as you say – and I dare say there's more than a little overlap between the set of asocial humans and the set of self-isolating hikikomori who prefer no company at all.
Though, in my experience on anonymous message boards over the past fifteen years online, hikikomori (or at least the western equivalent) seem to prefer the company of others like themselves whom they may encounter on said message boards. Or some certainly act like they prefer the imagined company of anime/video game characters to the company of other human beings, most of whom will never, ever come close to understanding them or what they're about.
Now if I were a real loner I'd move to the wastes of Alaska and tough it out there. Most of us depend on civilization and that makes us all oddly social at least.
I do hate crowds and their single cell animal like behavior. Sometimes I avoid a crowd behavior to a fault. It is hard to undo 40 years of my behavior.
But there is a difference, and this is the part that I find to be at odds with the idea of seeking a tribe (in my case). When I speak to people on the internet, I feel more as though I'm speaking to an idea, usually one that is contrary to my own. That's precisely why I like it, I'm not socialising, I'm pursuing an idea to its conclusion as I might a puzzle or a game.
There are other things that are good about the internet, of course. No one's voice is greater or lesser on account of their status or anecdotal evidence. There are just ideas and arguments. Ideas and arguments I am quite capable of thinking up and testing internally, by playing devil's advocate, but I find it less efficient. Same goes for the socialising that is necessary to work, to have a home, etc. I often (at least in my youth) dreamed about living in a lighthouse or some kind of cabin, miles from anyone, but I find a modicum of social interaction to be preferable given that, in exchange, I don't have to go foraging for food or firewood, I can just go to the store and pay for a heating system, respectively.
I guess I really struggle with close relationships. I've had a few in my time, and every time I have brought the relationship to a conclusion because I came to resent that other person's need for interaction at inopportune (for me) times. I could go the entire day and barely acknowledge their existence, and that's not really a healthy relationship when one does that. It's not fair on them, and the moment I start to act and pretend to be something I'm not (an attentive partner who is concerned about the minutiae of my significant other's life) it becomes unfair on me. Resentment is probably the biggest killer of relationships for most people, especially when it's financial or sexual, but in my case it's much simpler: I just want to be alone.
Another thing I like about the internet is that the socialising I've done, and continue to do, is on-demand i.e. I can socialise with people when I have some time to set aside, in a state that is neither tired enough to sleep and yet not energised enough to work productively on something I care about. In the real world, or in a relationship, socialising occurs at times that are not of my choosing, for durations that are not of my choosing (often longer than I'd like) and concerning topics that do not remotely interest me.
This conversation you and I are having right now is relevant to my interests (psychology in general, not narcissistic self-interest) and thus I choose to perpetuate it by replying. If this message draws the conversation to a conclusion, or if your prospective reply leaves nothing further to be said, I can simply move on to the next thing. I don't need to find a new topic to raise with you. I don't have to worry about you. It's simply done.
tl; dr: internet socialising is both rather unsocial (I have no idea who you are, you don't know who I am, and while we could perhaps dox each other, there's no need, and thus only our words on a given topic matter) and transactional, and thus the internet enables me to prevent myself from getting tired due to over-socialising while at the same time pursuing a line of thought to its conclusion more efficiently (or at least with half the effort) than I might do myself.
Edit: there's another factor that brings me to s...
However, real comlte isolation tend to drive people crazy (in medical sense and in long term - recovéry is hard).
The bulk of my previous post was mostly about how I don't really seek to be part of a group of people, I just like talking.
Still, I find it difficult to believe that I would lose my sanity with only myself to talk to. But then again, I've never truly tried it, so I cannot say that I wouldn't go mad.
Though I already talk to myself when I'm just around the house. Not to remember things, just because I enjoy it, maybe a debate about a decision or a topic that comes to mind.
I'll probably stop there before I am accused of being insane (insert awkward laugh here).
[0] https://docs.google.com/forms/d/18ZPuMNMNJguVxO6jUOHPMHiHp7f...
But to answer your question, I just did an MBTI test for you and from my responses I was determined to be INTJ.
Even if, the desired choice had to be established somehow.
>I was determined to be INTJ
Answering honestly, yes? I asked because I thought "I could have written this" (well except the book writing part); I also get intj. Of course it's gameable, but when answered honestly I found it works very well for clustering (intp/intj as one cluster); the personality description is irrelevant. I started from the position of extreme skepticism. It's possible it's less reliable for other personality types.
Any correct testing of MBTI finds that it's not reliable.
You sound insufferable. It's fine not to have in common with people, but pretending you can't get along with others because of their "consumption, decadence, and self-gratification" sounds like nothing more than an excuse for poor social skills.
Every day I break bread with people I have almost nothing in common with, and still manage to have interesting and pleasant conversations. I don't feel the need to collapse into a ball of self-righteous contempt.
I have social skills, and a tongue of only the finest sterling silver, so I need no excuse for a lack of such things. I just wanted to speak frankly about how much I loathe socialising with people, because I find them essentially hollow and/or self-interested.
Any given person may see me as both hollow and self-interested from their perspective, but this is irrelevant to the point I'm making. I see no reason to want to talk to people who are not really listening, so I try to avoid it.
There are times when it cannot be avoided, but that's the price one pays to earn money, which is in turn required to pay live for a home with electricity and an internet connection. I suppose I could just become a bum, drifting between coffee shops with WiFi, but then where would I sleep? Pretty sure I'd have to socialise more if I were to go down that route anyway.
Also, if I 'collapsed into a ball of self-righteous contempt', I'm pretty sure I would be saying 'I cannot socialise' not 'I hate socialising'. Just a minor detail about your slightly rude reply, it doesn't matter that much.
I'd prefer to eat my lunch alone and read to be honest.
Not everyone fits that mould though, and plenty of people actively seek out solitude because it is pleasurable.
I discussed this topic in varying degrees with these people. The message was relatively uniform: they didn't think the Japanese work culture was healthy and what they had witnessed studying in Scandinavia encouraged them to stay there. After a while they made an explicit decision to try build their life there. They had been there for like 5-10 years already when I met them; two had families with young kids and one was still dating.
This kind of "escape" requires quite strong language skills though. And social skills.
Of course these individuals were preselected in various ways, like
1) attempting to go study abroad in a Scandinavian country (that in itself is a fairly extreme decision in Japan, I have been led to believe)
2) deciding to stay
3) getting a position in the multi-national company I was temporarily working at
So I'm definitely not saying all Japanese people feel this way. But still I feel it's relevant to note this kind of escape for Japanese people who feel they are not cut out for the traditional way of doing things.
So you have people at all fringes of society either withdrawing from it, or desperate to find somewhere to belong.
[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-16/japan-s-p...
One question for the hikikomori. If they don't work, how do they get money? I'm sure they can live relatively inexpensive lives but how do they get money to pay for rent? Does he work remotely? Bitcoin investments? So many questions...
Having said that I may be completely off base here since I do not know Japanese culture well enough.
On hacker news since most people are in CS/IT, a field that is almost free (but not for long), it may look like we still live under goverments that are business friendly. But that's not the case at all in other sectors, and many people aten't allowed to find a place in the market.
People today can't get their feet wet when trying to find a place in the market, they must immediately do a full dive. No wonder more and more are drowning.
I'm an American who spent only 5 years working in an office before coming to the conclusion that it wasn't for me. I spend most of my time working from home these days, with the occasional trip to San Francisco to make an appearance at HQ.
Because I still contribute to society, my relationship with my wife stay strong, I am able to socialize without anxiety, and depression from conforming to office society is long passed.
I still shun society in many other ways. I disagree with some schooling systems, most political systems, and others beyond the scope of this comment, but working from home gives me the willpower to make compromises.