I’m still pretty sure that they’re mostly paranoid schizophrenics, but this is more or less what “targeted individuals” claim is being done to them. Technology makes it harder and harder to reach delusional people, when their delusions become technically possible. How bizarre!
The problem is that once you walked over the line into psychosis, it is extremely difficult to come back to “normal reality”. Human’s psycho is very fragile thing. The weaponry basically creates an army of people who lost the boundaries of normalcy. It is not good....
Good point, and that’s definitely why early intervention and prevention is the preferred modality for treatment of psychosis. This is weaponizing the opposite of that, for “crowd control” I guess.
It's actually surprisingly easy to slip back and forth between psychosis and not. Which is the problem as you can't subjectivity tell one from the other.
On the other hand, the already disturbed could be far more resilient to this actually being used as they already knew that this was going on and were hearing voices anyway.
There's a fair amount of talk on this sort of thing on /r/conspiracy, around stories like the latest school shooter, on various antidepressants, being well known to authorities, numerous calls to law enforcement but no one will do anything. I have no idea if any of it is true, but this sort of thing being in the news doesn't cool speculation either.
I had the same though when I first read about the microwave auditory effect:
"In his experiments, the subjects were discovered to be able to hear appropriately pulsed microwave radiation, from a distance of a few inches to hundreds of feet from the transmitter. [...] According to Frey, the induced sounds were described as 'a buzz, clicking, hiss, or knocking, depending on several transmitter parameters, i.e., pulse width and pulse-repetition rate'. By changing transmitter parameters, Frey was able to induce the 'perception of severe buffeting of the head, without such apparent vestibular symptoms as dizziness or nausea'."
"In 1975, an article by neuropsychologist Don Justesen discussing radiation impacts on human perceptions referred to an experiment by Joseph Sharp and Mark Grove at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research during which Sharp and Grove reportedly were able to recognize 9 out of 10 words transmitted by 'voice modulated microwaves'."
Wow- one step closer - two Laser interacting generate Plasma.
Now you can print 3dimensional plasma into mid air- now all you need is a lightning, and you printed a space-gun coil-gun/launchloop into mid air.
Who cares about crowdcontroll if we can go to space for cheap.
"Both the U.S. military and the U.S. Intelligence Community would undoubtedly love to have the ability to direct disconcerting or false messages out of thin air at the enemy or even a particular individual, such as a terrorist leader. They might mistake the experience for some sort of divine intervention or a deteriorating mental condition."
This is total BS. Successful terrorists leaders, even religious ones, are not clueless primitives - they've grown up with the usual array of technology (even if it's the cheap versions affordable in poor countries), and often make sophisticated user of it when planning and executing their missions. usually sophisticated users of technology, and . Once this project is common knowledge, they'll be reminded that the US knows where they are, but they won't jump to supernatural explanations.
Sounds horrible overall but I found this part interesting.
> One intriguing finding is the frequent report by subjects, both during and after recovery from the drug experience, of the illusion of red coloration of the skin, both their own and that of undrugged personnel who are with them. One or two individuals have thought their hands were bleeding when washing them under the tap. Whether this is an optical phenomenon related in some way to engorgement of retinal blood vessels or is central in origin is not known.
Reminded me of one's own (and other's) skin looks to be very `crocodile-like` and almost as if you can see all the veins underneath it when one is under the influence of DMT.
Found the following to be a quite amusing way to put it:
> [The] particular concatenations and distortions of language elements are almost impossible to imitate – they seem to result from an extreme loosening of the entire verbal associative system. As such, they may create a humorous effect,since the shift is so rapid and unpredictable that at times their remarks have the flavor of creativity and wit (the things that subjects say and do, in fact, are often very funny and it is sometimes difficult to keep from laughing at their antics, professional standards of decorum notwithstanding).
> During severe delirium, attempts to clarify the intended communication by asking the subject to repeat or explain something are usually futile. It does not do good to say 'What do you mean by that?' because the subject does not know what he said, does not really grasp the question and my not realize what he is saying when he answers.
You're almost right. It would work the first time though, if the military successfully kept the weapon's existence secret till then, and resisted the urge to use it too soon to save it for a pivotal battle. Militaries are well practiced at managing secrets like that.
Don't underestimate the power of raw emotional reaction over the rational mind. There may be rumors that a tool like this exists, but if a religious insurgent hears the voice of God telling him to lay down his weapons, I wouldn't be surprised if he complied.
If someone is religious enough to attribute a voice with a god and obey it, just because they can't identify the source of the voice, surely they are just as likely to think it is a demon and disobey it?
People aren’t machines. Imagine yourself as a terrorist leader.
The US Army is combing the area you’re hiding in and you’re just waiting for an opportunity to slip away to fight another day. The isolation and paranoia are mounting, and you’re wondering why you decided to put yourself and your compatriots through this terrifying time. News from the field: they raided one of your supply caches and captured your closest co-conspirator. What about my family? What would my father think of me right now?
And then a disembodied voice gently beckons you to surrender.
Sure, it could have an emotional effect - same as loudspeakers, only more intimate. But proposing that someone would "mistake the experience for some sort of divine intervention or a deteriorating mental condition" is a statement about a person's view of the factual reality you live in, which tends to remain intact even in stressful situations.
My issue is not with the funding of this project or with its use in counterinsurgency operations; it's with journalism that paints (mostly Muslim) terrorists as superstitious primitives, when in fact they are thoroughly products of modern society.
Typical members of modern society wouldn't assume that voices in their heads are being beamed in by the government. It's much more rational to think you have a deteriorating mental condition. If you believe in a personal god that communicates directly with people, that's also a viable option. That's a very common belief in the US.
>voices in their head are being beamed in by the government.
Good point! Maybe they should also work on a lizard-person suit, or the technology to actually replace all of someone's family with robots, to help those "paranoid delusions" along.
> Typical members of modern society wouldn't assume that voices in their heads are being beamed in by the government.
Of course they would, if a) it was common, factual knowledge that the government actively uses such technology, and b) if they were a target for such government. a) and b) will immediately be true for terrorists, if this tech gets deployed.
>> Typical members of modern society wouldn't assume that voices in their heads are being beamed in by the government.
> Of course they would, if a) it was common, factual knowledge that the government actively uses such technology, and b) if they were a target for such government. a) and b) will immediately be true for terrorists, if this tech gets deployed.
Governments use propaganda, sure, but "beaming voices into people's head", without their knowledge? I haven't heard of it, definitely not common knowledge. Do you have a source?
The original complaint was about Muslims being depicted as superstitious primitives. Your current complaint is about Muslims being depicted as typical members of modern society rather than typical members of a future in which this type of weapon is common knowledge.
I think that even in such a future, mental deterioration and religious experience would remain viable potential explanations for hearing voices in your head. Even if you were 90% sure that it was the US government, that 10% chance that you're losing your mind or getting instructions from God is powerful.
You'd probably also be psychologically motivated to come up with an explanation that doesn't involve a large well-funded group of trained killers who are out to get you knowing exactly where you are and having their weapons trained on you.
Maybe not on its own, but if you went out of your way to psychologically fuck with somebody until their mental state started to deteriorate enough, something like this could definitely cause a breakdown.
Imagine being kept awake for days because the voices in your head won't stop.
Which is why I have to laugh at the way military dude bro types in all those Active Denial videos are like “yeah, wow, it’s so non-lethal and harmless!”
It really doesn’t matter much to me that the Active Denial System is advertised as non-lethal, because any non-lethal system can be pushed into overdrive to inflict an excruciating living hell on individuals pinned down by lethal fire, and weapons like these are usually in the hands of operators with lethal options locked and loaded, and ready to go.
So, it’s a small leap of the imagination to consider that these non-lethal options are being developed as a cheaper version of tear gas, to push adversaries into lethal funnels, because lazy troops don’t take prisoners, and bored troops often torture, for information or sadistic amusement. So videos will show up in the distant (or nor so distant) future with people being tied up and subjected to hours of Active Denial beams for sure, and that says nothing about the animal testing that’s already happened.
So here’s another weapon you’ll see smoking combatants into fatal funnels. Just because non-lethal options are available, doesn’t mean lethality is off the table.
And by the way, wasn’t there some shit like this happening in Cuba recently?
Have you ever seen a stage magician? It’s one thing to know that it’s not real, but when you’re presented with something that seems impossible, it’s easy to buy in. Maybe you don’t 100% believe it, but if you’re already stressed and demoralized, you’re going to be more likely to do something stupid that gets you captured or killed.
Here's a video of Anderson Cooper listening to one while doing basic tasks and he struggles immensely. Keep in mind that he is cognizant of what is happening to him and still fails.
But I think the bigger application might be in using this tech to trick the enemy into giving up their position to investigate some weird sound, flush them out of buildings, etc.
Taxpayers money at work: one could just throw a bomb at them, once it is known where they are.
Can it be that this 'sonic weapons in Havana' scare was all about pushing the profits of some defence contractor? I guess that the real driving force for defence appropriations is fear of the mighty counterpart. Worked so well for the past 60 years.
I think you might be making too much of the connection between rationality and the ability to use modern tools.
I don't have a lot of experience with terrorist leaders, but my experience with business leaders is that they are way more superstitious than the average engineer or technician working under them. The leader, in a technical team at least, is almost always the person most vulnerable to irrational thoughts about their own abilities. I suspect this has to do with how much most people value confidence in their leaders, and how much better you are at projecting confidence if you actually have irrationally positive beliefs about your own abilities.
Add to that, I'd argue that saying "From my cold, dead hands" to the US military or law enforcement is something only someone who doesn't meet my definition of rationality would do.
I think your first two paragraphs were perceptive. They certainly agree with experiences I’ve had but couldn’t articulate. The third paragraph I don’t understand.
I am arguing that fighting the US government with violence is unwise to the point where it indicates a lack of rational thinking: first, the US government is very good at violence, and second because the US government doesn't seem to be so good at responding to non-violent attacks, both in mitigating the effects and in retaliating against attackers.
The "From my cold, dead hands" was perhaps a bit of a jab at my own fellow citizens who seem to think that a gun makes you more effective when fighting a enemy so overwhelmingly powerful as the US government. (I mean, I interpret the phrase to mean that they will resist law enforcement officers with violence if said law enforcement officers try to confiscate their guns; it's possible they mean it in a different way, but that's my reading.)
We’re in agreement. The psychological basis of gun fantasy-security is an important issue, since it has put hundreds of thousands of assault rifles in the hands of Americans. The vast majority are responsible users. Just like the vast majority of us don’t get the flu. The minority in each case constitutes a public health risk, which I think, in the case of firearms, is driven in part by fantasy among gun owners.
Blinding can't be the primary objective - so make sure your laser weapons are strong enough to burn a hole in your military target's head to abide by my non lawyer reading of this.
How so? It can already be done with anything, like a firecracker. Cops at protests are use to it loud noises. I'm not saying cops are good or bad, just that I don't see how this in particular is all that troubling. Cops aren't generally (in the West) going to fire live ammunition into an open crowd. Generally they will use rubber bullets or things that disperse the crowd.
> The idea of sending the sound of gunfire into a peaceful rally with armed cops nearby is frightening.
William Burroughs circa 1970 on using portable tape recorders for the same effect:
AS A FRONT LINE WEAPON TO PRODUCE AND ESCALATE RIOTS There is nothing mystical about this operation. Riot sound effects can produce an actual riot in a riot situation. RECORDED POLICE WHISTLES WILL DRAW COPS. RECORDED GUNSHOTS, AND THEIR GUNS ARE OUT.
Here is a run of the mill, pre-riot situation. Protesters have been urged to demonstrate peacefully, police and guardsmen to exercise restraint. Ten tape recorders strapped under their coats, playback, and record controlled from lapel buttons. They have prerecorded riot sound effects from Chicago, Paris, Mexico City, Kent/Ohio. If they adjust sound levels of recordings to surrounding sound levels, they will not be detected. Police scuffle with the demonstrators.
kids, google MKULTRA, I am one; google Montauk and time travel; I ws there; it is real; watch Gaia Corry Goode to fet a concept of Alien Agenda and disclosure. These weapons ARE REAL! Google DUMBS, deep underground military bases; Trump announced a Space Force vis USAF; MARS is colonized; bases on MOON, NASA's job is to lie about Alien presence.. Google Tesla; Vannevar Bush...MUFON see how many UFOs reported for every sighting hundreds go unreported... DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH... put on big boy pants...
Or anyone else’s voice. Someone on the phone waiting for nuclear launch code verification never gets the right code, even though it’s a familiar voice on the line.
Or damaging a competitor’s business relationships with opportunistically broadcasted lewd comments, when people aren’t looking at each other’s faces enough to see their mouths move.
From what I saw in the video, there was nothing really impressive about this technology (shooting a laser at a log). Tech Readiness level 4 at the MOST.
And they will get abused in the future. It's freaking me out when there's so little resistance or even negative comments on the development and adoption of such systems.
This is something you'd expect the Nazis or Franco to celebrate, not United States.
Know why this is released to the public? Because the work is garbage. And it wasn’t cheap to do it either. Just see what it costs to purchase a KM Labs Dragon laser system. At any one time, there’s a huge amount of military research done at scattered, small labs. A guy gets good at writing contract proposals. He hangs out a shingle and gets a $250k-$1M contract. He hires some down-in-their-luck laser physicist(s) or the equivalent who had weak thesis topics, or who want to learn how to do this business themselves. A few people make nice salaries. The work is quickly forgotten. Rinse and repeat.
93 comments
[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 163 ms ] threadThat was a funny transition.
I still wonder every time
"In his experiments, the subjects were discovered to be able to hear appropriately pulsed microwave radiation, from a distance of a few inches to hundreds of feet from the transmitter. [...] According to Frey, the induced sounds were described as 'a buzz, clicking, hiss, or knocking, depending on several transmitter parameters, i.e., pulse width and pulse-repetition rate'. By changing transmitter parameters, Frey was able to induce the 'perception of severe buffeting of the head, without such apparent vestibular symptoms as dizziness or nausea'."
"In 1975, an article by neuropsychologist Don Justesen discussing radiation impacts on human perceptions referred to an experiment by Joseph Sharp and Mark Grove at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research during which Sharp and Grove reportedly were able to recognize 9 out of 10 words transmitted by 'voice modulated microwaves'."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_auditory_effect
Who cares about crowdcontroll if we can go to space for cheap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYVWb_QgQwU
This is total BS. Successful terrorists leaders, even religious ones, are not clueless primitives - they've grown up with the usual array of technology (even if it's the cheap versions affordable in poor countries), and often make sophisticated user of it when planning and executing their missions. usually sophisticated users of technology, and . Once this project is common knowledge, they'll be reminded that the US knows where they are, but they won't jump to supernatural explanations.
See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate
https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/bz/bz_article1.shtml
It's the height of shame that the US government has considered dosing people (and perhaps has dosed people) with this compound.
Iirc, BZ was created following "failures" in the MKULTRA experiments.
Scary times.
> One intriguing finding is the frequent report by subjects, both during and after recovery from the drug experience, of the illusion of red coloration of the skin, both their own and that of undrugged personnel who are with them. One or two individuals have thought their hands were bleeding when washing them under the tap. Whether this is an optical phenomenon related in some way to engorgement of retinal blood vessels or is central in origin is not known.
Reminded me of one's own (and other's) skin looks to be very `crocodile-like` and almost as if you can see all the veins underneath it when one is under the influence of DMT.
Found the following to be a quite amusing way to put it:
> [The] particular concatenations and distortions of language elements are almost impossible to imitate – they seem to result from an extreme loosening of the entire verbal associative system. As such, they may create a humorous effect,since the shift is so rapid and unpredictable that at times their remarks have the flavor of creativity and wit (the things that subjects say and do, in fact, are often very funny and it is sometimes difficult to keep from laughing at their antics, professional standards of decorum notwithstanding).
> During severe delirium, attempts to clarify the intended communication by asking the subject to repeat or explain something are usually futile. It does not do good to say 'What do you mean by that?' because the subject does not know what he said, does not really grasp the question and my not realize what he is saying when he answers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_from_ultrasound
The US Army is combing the area you’re hiding in and you’re just waiting for an opportunity to slip away to fight another day. The isolation and paranoia are mounting, and you’re wondering why you decided to put yourself and your compatriots through this terrifying time. News from the field: they raided one of your supply caches and captured your closest co-conspirator. What about my family? What would my father think of me right now?
And then a disembodied voice gently beckons you to surrender.
My issue is not with the funding of this project or with its use in counterinsurgency operations; it's with journalism that paints (mostly Muslim) terrorists as superstitious primitives, when in fact they are thoroughly products of modern society.
Good point! Maybe they should also work on a lizard-person suit, or the technology to actually replace all of someone's family with robots, to help those "paranoid delusions" along.
Of course they would, if a) it was common, factual knowledge that the government actively uses such technology, and b) if they were a target for such government. a) and b) will immediately be true for terrorists, if this tech gets deployed.
> Of course they would, if a) it was common, factual knowledge that the government actively uses such technology, and b) if they were a target for such government. a) and b) will immediately be true for terrorists, if this tech gets deployed.
Governments use propaganda, sure, but "beaming voices into people's head", without their knowledge? I haven't heard of it, definitely not common knowledge. Do you have a source?
I think that even in such a future, mental deterioration and religious experience would remain viable potential explanations for hearing voices in your head. Even if you were 90% sure that it was the US government, that 10% chance that you're losing your mind or getting instructions from God is powerful.
You'd probably also be psychologically motivated to come up with an explanation that doesn't involve a large well-funded group of trained killers who are out to get you knowing exactly where you are and having their weapons trained on you.
if youre forced to stay awake for a week straight your view of reality will entirely dissolve.
https://daringfireball.net/2015/04/the_apple_watch
And then I'll remember this article and dismiss it / Get even more entrenched in my conviction that my "do anything to win" enemy must be destroyed.
Imagine being kept awake for days because the voices in your head won't stop.
It really doesn’t matter much to me that the Active Denial System is advertised as non-lethal, because any non-lethal system can be pushed into overdrive to inflict an excruciating living hell on individuals pinned down by lethal fire, and weapons like these are usually in the hands of operators with lethal options locked and loaded, and ready to go.
So, it’s a small leap of the imagination to consider that these non-lethal options are being developed as a cheaper version of tear gas, to push adversaries into lethal funnels, because lazy troops don’t take prisoners, and bored troops often torture, for information or sadistic amusement. So videos will show up in the distant (or nor so distant) future with people being tied up and subjected to hours of Active Denial beams for sure, and that says nothing about the animal testing that’s already happened.
So here’s another weapon you’ll see smoking combatants into fatal funnels. Just because non-lethal options are available, doesn’t mean lethality is off the table.
And by the way, wasn’t there some shit like this happening in Cuba recently?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vvU-Ajwbok
Here's a video of Anderson Cooper listening to one while doing basic tasks and he struggles immensely. Keep in mind that he is cognizant of what is happening to him and still fails.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL9UJVtgPZY
These weapons will become mass torture devices that further remove humanity from inhumane acts of war.
There's a reason why most human experts are blind.
But I think the bigger application might be in using this tech to trick the enemy into giving up their position to investigate some weird sound, flush them out of buildings, etc.
Can it be that this 'sonic weapons in Havana' scare was all about pushing the profits of some defence contractor? I guess that the real driving force for defence appropriations is fear of the mighty counterpart. Worked so well for the past 60 years.
I don't have a lot of experience with terrorist leaders, but my experience with business leaders is that they are way more superstitious than the average engineer or technician working under them. The leader, in a technical team at least, is almost always the person most vulnerable to irrational thoughts about their own abilities. I suspect this has to do with how much most people value confidence in their leaders, and how much better you are at projecting confidence if you actually have irrationally positive beliefs about your own abilities.
Add to that, I'd argue that saying "From my cold, dead hands" to the US military or law enforcement is something only someone who doesn't meet my definition of rationality would do.
The "From my cold, dead hands" was perhaps a bit of a jab at my own fellow citizens who seem to think that a gun makes you more effective when fighting a enemy so overwhelmingly powerful as the US government. (I mean, I interpret the phrase to mean that they will resist law enforcement officers with violence if said law enforcement officers try to confiscate their guns; it's possible they mean it in a different way, but that's my reading.)
Eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Blinding_Laser_Wea...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Certain_Conventi...
William Burroughs circa 1970 on using portable tape recorders for the same effect:
AS A FRONT LINE WEAPON TO PRODUCE AND ESCALATE RIOTS There is nothing mystical about this operation. Riot sound effects can produce an actual riot in a riot situation. RECORDED POLICE WHISTLES WILL DRAW COPS. RECORDED GUNSHOTS, AND THEIR GUNS ARE OUT.
Here is a run of the mill, pre-riot situation. Protesters have been urged to demonstrate peacefully, police and guardsmen to exercise restraint. Ten tape recorders strapped under their coats, playback, and record controlled from lapel buttons. They have prerecorded riot sound effects from Chicago, Paris, Mexico City, Kent/Ohio. If they adjust sound levels of recordings to surrounding sound levels, they will not be detected. Police scuffle with the demonstrators.
http://www.poetspath.com/transmissions/messages/burroughs.ht...
We’re supposed to be the country that’s against the cruel and unusual shit.
https://www.technologyreview.com/the-download/610386/a-new-a...
Or damaging a competitor’s business relationships with opportunistically broadcasted lewd comments, when people aren’t looking at each other’s faces enough to see their mouths move.
Here's one from 10 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HHJhpStza0
So not really new tech, just a weird application of it.
https://youtu.be/t4lS7nlR_BY https://www.courthousenews.com/man-says-l-a-jailers-shot-him...
This is something you'd expect the Nazis or Franco to celebrate, not United States.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007k1w6
Voices from all the friends you’ve ever called or texted appearing out of nowhere?
Scary stuff.